Post from EliYah on 11/02/07- unedited

[eriqbenel]

Hi all,

I'm quite new to Torah observance and so haven't really looked into Lunar Sabbaths at all (I've only just got over the shock of it not being Sunday!!). I do have one question though, and please forgive me if it seems a bit stupid or naive, but I would like to know why, if the lunar sabbath is correct, did YHVH rest on the seventh day after the start of creation, and not the seventh day after the creation of the moon, which was the fourth day?

Thank you

Lindsey

Shalom Lindsey!

This is usually the first objection (or question) everyone has. It is valid one. There is a lot to it, but I will try to give you the "short" version.

In actuallity, the Moon was NOT "created" on the fourth day. It was "created" in the beginning
in Genesis 1:1.

The Hebrew words "created" and "made" are different.

The word created carries the idea of bringing into existence something from nothing, just as we would think of creation.

The word made carries the idea of "appointing", "advancing" or "completing" something that ALREADY exist. For example:

I take a big hunk of a tree (nothing), carve it into the shape of a chair. I have "created" a chair.

Then I begin to sand it, polish it and paint it. I am beginning to "advance upon" that chair.

Finally, I place it in the perfect corner of my house, where it will serve it's purpose. It is now "complete". I have "MADE" it.

So it is with the Moon and all the luminaries. They were "created", IN THE BEGINNING (Gen.1:1)

They began to be "advanced upon" it by adding light to it, placing it in the firmament, and finally setting it in it's permanant orbit around the earth. It is then "made" (Genesis 1:14-19)

Therefore, the moon was "created" in the beginning, and placed in it's permanant orbit on the fourth day (made). This was the "fourth day" of work for Elohim.

Remember, the Sabbath is about "rest", NOT about a "DAY". The fourth day was a "day" of work, that's all.

Elohim rested the seventh day after "six days" of work. The Moon phases are designed to remind us to do this. [/u]

[kathybyers2000]

Great Question!

It was my very first question too. I am sure that there are plenty of brethren here who are happy to answer this question for you. Simply put, though, creating is fashioning (this occured in the beginning when YHWH created all the heavenly hosts) when He "made" the moon he was actually appointing it. So, it existed in the beginning and was appointed on the fourth day. Perhaps there are others on here with different understandings in this too. Always nice to have plenty to glean from and not enough, I say!

Hope this helps a little and like I say I am sure there are others on here who can elaborate on this a little, but I must get to work - so behind

Shalom,

Kathy

[eriqbenel]

Hi all,

I'm quite new to Torah observance and so haven't really looked into Lunar Sabbaths at all (I've only just got over the shock of it not being Sunday!!). I do have one question though, and please forgive me if it seems a bit stupid or naive, but I would like to know why, if the lunar sabbath is correct, did YHVH rest on the seventh day after the start of creation, and not the seventh day after the creation of the moon, which was the fourth day?

Thank you

Lindsey

Shalom Lindsey,

This is most often the very first objection (question) people have. It is a valid question. There is a lot to the answer but I will try to give you the short version.

Actually, the Moon was not "created" on the fourth day. It was created IN THE BEGINNING... In the Scripture passages of Genesis 1:1 and 1:14 the words "created" and "made" are two separate words.

The word "created" carries the idea of something from nothing, as we would normally think if creation.

The word "made" carries the idea of "appointing" or "completing" something that ALREADY EXIST.

For example: If I cut down a tree and chop a big hunk out of it so that I can make a chair, do I have a chair? No. But my big block of wood is now the "creation" of my future chair. To this point, however, my chair is "formless" and "empty".

THEN, I begin to carve and sand and shape and paint my chair until it is a beautiful piece of furniture. After it's finished, I place it in the corner of my office where it will serve it's permanant purpose for people to come and sit in it. Now, it has been "appointed" and "completed".

So it is with the Moon, Sun and Stars, they were "created" IN THE BEGINNING (Gen 1:1), along with the Earth, but were then "completed" and "appointed" on day four (Gen 1:14).

The word "made" there in Genesis 1:14 is the SAME word used in Psalm 104:19, which says:

"He (YHWH) APPOINTED the Moon for times(moedim)..."

Therefore, the Moon, ALREADY CREATED, was appointed as a beacon for YHWH's feast on day four, but that doesn't mean that His work didn't begin on day 1.

[Tewey]

Shalom Everyone,

May the Peace and Blessings of Yah be upon you.

I was a Believer in the 7th Day (of the Week) Sabbath until 4 years ago. A man ask a question concerning the Sabbath in a Yahoo Group, so to answer him, I had to do some searching and deep study. Genesis 1:14-16 tells us that Yah gave us the Sun, Moon, & STARS to keep Time: Establish our years, days, feasts, etc...

The question is very simple. How does a person look at the Sun, Moon, and Stars and establish time. Once it is understood, it is an easy matter to locate Yah's "signals". For example, the Last Day of the Year is the Day when Night and Day are EQUAL. This is called the Spring Equinox in modern English Terms. The First Day following the Spring Equinox begins the First Day of the Year.

On March 17, 2007, the Day and Night was equal length. Was this the Spring Equinox? NO! Neither was the 18th or 19th, and they were of equal length also. How do I know that March 20th was the "spring equinox"and last day of the year? THE DAY (light)FOLLOWING THE SPRING EQUINOX WILL BECOME LONGER THAN THE NIGHT (darkness)! This is explained in the 72nd chapter of the Book of Enoch.

When does the New Moon become VISIBLE? This is also explained in the Book of Enoch, chapter 73. The New Moon ALWAYS becomes visible AFTER SUNSET but Before the Stars appear during the Night. And...the New Moon ALWAYS appears on the Last Day of the Month.

What does the First New Moon of the Year look like? It will look like a SMILE. The Light (sliver) will be located at the Bottom of the Moon. On the Second Month, the "sliver light" will be turned up slightly on the Right Side. On the Third Month, the New Moon Sliver will be turned upward even more. This phenomen occurs until the New Moon is completely on the Right Side of the Moon and standing "straight up and down". During the Last Half of the Year, the Moon's Sliver will begin to return to the "Smile Position" with the passing of each Month.

When will the New Moon Sliver occur in the Month of November, 2007. To determine this, all you have to do is determine when the Sun and Moon RISES AND SETS. On the Last Day of the Month, the Sun will rise First and be followed by the Moon. The Sun will then set First, but the Moon will not set for approximately 30 minutes later. The Sky must grow sufficiently dark for the "faint light" of the Moon to be seen. This will not occur if the Moon sets to close to the setting of the Sun. This is explained in the Book of Enoch. For example, on November 10th, 2007 the Sun will Rise at 7:09 A.M. and the Moon will Rise at 8:00 A.M.. This satisifies the requirement that the Sun Rise First. But...the Sun sets at 5:22 P.M. and the Moon sets at 5:26 P.M.. The New Moon will not be seen on Saturday night because it sets while the Evening Light is too Bright.

On November 11, 2007, the Sun will Rise at 7:10 A.M. and the Moon will Rise at 9:01 A.M.. The Sun will Set at 5:21 P.M., and the Moon will Set at 6:05 P.M... THE MOON WILL BECOME VISIBLE in my area of Ohio. It will probably be seen for approximately 15 minutes or so. On November 11th all the requirements will be met for the New Moon Sliver to appear. This is Explained in the Book of Enoch.

I would encourage everyone to study the Book of Enoch and the explanations made therein. Then, go outside and begin studying the Sun, Moon, and Stars. You will find that The Book of Enoch describes the Motions of the Heavenly Illuminations ACCURATELY.

In the Name of Yahusha ben Adam I remain,

Tewey

[BrotherArnold]

Shalom he hold,s my hand,

Even if the moon was created on day 4, it would still be in plenty of time to do what it was created for, and that is to be a sign/becon the appointments, and the weekly seventh day Sabbath is an appointment. (a becon is something that goes on and off/moon)

Psalms 104:19 say's that He appointed the moon forseasons/appointments
and if we ask our selves the question, WHEN did He APPOINT the moon for seasons/appointments? Was it not on day 4?

The same Hebrew word APPOINTED, in Psalms 104:19, is the exact same Hebrew word MADE in Genesis 1:14. Please go to www.lunarsabbath.info at the bottom of the page and click on 4th day in creation, for more details.

Brother Arnold

PS. If you do not see lunar Sabbath at this time, don't get discouraged but put it on the shelf for a future date.

[BrotherArnold]

Shalom Brother Greg,

Those are excellent questions, some I never thought of. Adressing number three,

3) Does the Scripture say that the moon is for mo'edim? We know that the answer is yes, and we know that the weekly Sabbath is a moed and no one can prove the moon is not for this Moed but they will show that they are some Moed's that are not governed by the moon such as the one concerning the evening and morning sacrifice and the one where men set an ambush at an appointed time.

I believe this strengthens our argument because it is clear that the moon is for Moed's and it is clear that the moon is not for all Moed's therefore the question arises, which Moed's are by the moon?

The answered is in Leviticus 23 where He says these are MY Moed's, even Holy convocations, and the weekly Sabbath is listed there with the rest of them. It is the WORSHIP Moed's or Holy convocation throughout the year that are by the MOON, therefore we know that it has to be referring t the WORSHIP Moeds.

We do not have to prove anything other than the weekly Sabbath is a Moed and the moon is for Moed's and until someone can show where the moon is not for the weekly Moed then we should only speak where the Scripture speaks and be silent where it is silent.

I explained it like this, if the Heavenly Father told us that the basket is for eggs and the weekly Sabbath is an egg, and every time we come to an egg, we should put it in the basket unless we know for sure that the egg does not belong in the basket. If we take It on or ourselves to say which eggs belong and which takes don't belong without scriptural proof, then we are disobeying orders. This argument gets even stronger when the weekly egg is mentioned right along with the yearly eggs that we know are for the basket. This is why the weekly Sabbaths are always found one of the four major phases of the moon, because it is a WORSHIP Moed.


Here is a good question to ask someone that believes in the continuous uninterrupted cycle, it takes a little concentration and a little common sense but is conclusive.

If there were two tribes that migrated east and west from Jerusalem using the seven-day uninterrupted cycle, their descendents would be keeping the weekly Sabbath on Two Different Days when they meet on the other side of the earth, even if it is two or three hundred years later when their descendents meet.

I don't believe anyone believes that when the 12 tribes of Israel were scattered abroad they all went in the same direction and the ones that travel the East, they and their descendents would gradually gain time as they migrated around the globe and when they got halfway around the globe, they would have gained half a-day and the ones that migrated West, they and their descendents would gradually lose time because they are going away from the sun this is an absolute that cannot be intentionally denied.

If both tribes faithfully kept up with the seven-day cycle, when they or their ancestors meet on the other side of the earth, one will be keeping the day one full day apart under the SAME sunrise and sunset. YHWH is not the author of confusion and neither tribe would be willing to break their cycle because of their traditional count that was handed down to them from their ancestors. Technically they would both be right according to the cycle but both could not be right on the seventh day. This is an absolute. This problem goes away with lunar Sabbaths because when they meet on the other side they are still watching the great lights and when the moon rises on both of them it will be in the same day.

When the two tribes have only traveled one quarter ways around the earth, this will put them 12 hours apart because one tribe will have lost six hours and the other will have gained six hours and they will be standing on opposite sides of the earth 12 hours apart, in essence the one traveling East will see the sun 12 hours before the one traveling west sees it. Then when they both continue migrating and their descendents meet on the other side of the earth, the ones that traveled East toward the sun, will be 24 hours ahead of the ones that traveled west and this puts them into two different daily cycles or days, under the SAME sun.


The above holds true with people in the United States today, some of our ancestors came here from the East and others came in from the West and with the traditional cycle Sabbath, there's no way their descendents can keep the same day cycle.

I don't want to cloud the issue too much but if they were three tribes, one tribe traveling East and one traveling west and the other stays put, then when two tribes that were traveling East and West passed one another and their descendents met back to where they started from, they would actually be keeping three different days for a week Sabbath and everyone of them would be 100% right on their count but there's no way they could all be keeping the right Sabbath day.

[BrotherArnold]

Wrong place again

[chuckbaldwin]

I have known this since I was removed months back for not believing as Eliyah deems HIS members MUST believe.

Hi Kathy,

If you don't mind, would you tell us what belief of yours caused EliYah to remove you. If you'd rather not, it's OK; i'm just being nosey.

[Watchman555]

Shalom Chuck Baldwin~

Didn't you mention that you had asked Tom to copy the contents of the True Sabbath Forum? I was wondering if you did, what was the outcome; because, we had asked Tom also and we have heard absolutely nothing from him concerning it.

~Greg

[BrotherArnold]

Shalom Brother Greg,

I have most of them saved, anyone who want them I will get Brothew Mathew or someone to show me how to zip them or I can send them as they are, to who ever is interested.

It would be better if we could get them from Eliyah.


Brother Arnold

[kathybyers2000]

I made mention of my not believing that Paul was numbered amongst the twelve apostles of the lamb and I also made a mention to the gnostic paul (that is, the paul who portrayed many beliefs of the gnostics - spiritually mostly, bust some physical traditions).

Anyway, it was enough to get me booted. And I look at it as YHWHs way of saying it is time to move on - so I did. And now here I am with you fine people and everybody is sharing their understanding and we are all basking in the glory of YHWH and his infinite wisdom and truth.

Thanks for asking - always glad to answer.

Shalom,

Kathy

[chuckbaldwin]

Shalom Chuck Baldwin~

Didn't you mention that you had asked Tom to copy the contents of the True Sabbath Forum? I was wondering if you did, what was the outcome; because, we had asked Tom also and we have heard absolutely nothing from him concerning it.

~Greg

No, i told Arnold that it would be better for him do ask directly, since he knows exactly what he wants. The simplest thing would be for EliYah to 'lock' all the threads, making them read-only, and granting access to Arnold to copy what he wants. Otherwise, i don't know what he could do to make them available without a huge effort.

[BrotherArnold]

Brother Chuch writes,

"I wish Lunar Sabbaths WERE provable, but so far they're NOT!"

RESPONSE; The Jews think they proved the weekly Sabbaths were originally by the Moon at least the higher ups or they that are in the know of the Jewish religion, see my post

LUNAR SABBATHS CONFIRMED BY JEWS
at http://yahuahreigns.informe.com/forum/h ... -dt25.html

Brother Arnold

[JMSchattke]

1) Please explain Ez:46:1 - how can the gate be opened and closed at the same time?

The gate is normally closed, but there are two exceptions: Sabbaths and New Moons. The two do not need to be exclusive.

12) Is the "weekly" Sabbath a mo'ed?

Definately, listed as such in Lev. 23
Lev 23:2 "Speak to the children of Yisra'el, and say to them, 'The appointed times of יהוה, which you are to proclaim as set-apart gatherings, My appointed times, are these:

3) Does the Scripture say that the moon is for mo'edim?

Gen 1:14 And Elohim said, "Let lights come to be in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and appointed times, and for days and years,
Gen 1:15 and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth." And it came to be so.
Well, not just the moon, the lights in the sky are the sun and the moon.

4) How does the prophecy in Lam. 2:6 apply to the Sabbath and Feasts of the Yahudim?

Lam 2:5 יהוה has been like an enemy. He has swallowed up Yisra'el, He has swallowed up all her palaces, He has destroyed her strongholds. And He increases mourning and lamentation In the daughter of Yehudah.
Lam 2:6 He has demolished His booth like a garden, He has destroyed His place of meeting. יהוה has made the appointed times and Sabbaths To be forgotten in Tsiyon, And despises sovereign and priest In His raging displeasure.
Lam 2:7 יהוה has cast off His altar, He has rejected His set-apart place, He has delivered the walls of her palaces Into the hand of the enemy. They have made a noise in the House of יהוה As on the day of an appointed time.
Lam 2:8 יהוה has planned to destroy The wall of the daughter of Tsiyon. He has stretched out a line. He has not turned back His hand from destroying. And He has made the rampart and wall to lament; Together they have languished.
Lam 2:9 Her gates have sunk into the ground. He has destroyed and broken her bars. Her sovereign and her rulers are among the gentiles. The Torah is no more, And her prophets have found no vision from יהוה.

Note verse 9... "The Torah is no more." Actually, it says "no more torah gatherings, prophets not being given sight from יהוה

This was a lamentation, not a prophecy - it's what has happened to Jerusalem in the time of Jeremiah. The tense is all recent past.

5) Why couldn't they wait for the Sabbath and New Moons to be over with to sell in Nehemnia?

Because Nehmiah was preventing sales on the New Moon, since there were special offerings on those days. New moons are not part of the Mo'ed in Lev 23.

6) Explain the offerings for daily, Sabbaths, new moons; Num. 28:4-15; why are there no provisions for new moon offerings that fall on the sabbath or sabbath offerings that fall on a new moon?

Because a New Moon offering is more than a sabbath offering. It would not hurt to do the sabbath offering also, but it would not be needed.

7) Psalm 81:3 - please explain. In comparison with Genesis and they are for signs. Mo'edim.

Blow the ram's horn at the time of the New Moon, At the full moon, on our festival day.

Is the full moon on the festival day and if it is how do you get to the full moon in 15 days starting with the crescent?

Psa 81:3 Blow the ram's horn at the time of the New Moon, At the full moon, on our festival day.
Trumpets (new moon) and the feasts of Unleavened Bread and Tabernacles (full moon).

As far as I can see, you don't. which makes the New Moon have to be the night of darkness.

8 ) How can the Roman calendar LIE about when the day begins, month begins, and year begins, yet we are supposed to believe it when it uses the 7-day week?

We don't - the "week" is not part of the calendar of the Romans, or the calendar of the Catholics. it's formatted that way for convenience of those who keep both a week and a roman calends.

9) How can the Roman calendar go from a lunar to a 10-day to a 8-day, to a 7-day week and be correct?

Again, week customs are not part of the calendar. The Romans were never the source of the week.

10) How can you accept that the RCC has said that the sole purpose of the Roman calendar is to determine when Easter is?

Again, Week and Calendar are different things. And who cares why they made the calendar change? It's a piece of hooey.

11) During Yahusha's death, burial, and resurrection was there a weekly Sabbath after the first day of Unleavened Bread? How could there have been two Sabbaths during that time period when Yahusha rose the third day from "the time those things took place".

'wow, much flurry of posts, but nothing new from the lunar side except "it's all wrong"

I'd need some scripture that clearly makes my timeline with two sabbaths and a full 3 days and 3 nights in the grave wrong, which you have not done.

If you have to use exigesis to make things that are stated clearly go wonky, I, for one, know what's going on.'

[BrotherArnold]

Watchman555 wrote: How can the Roman calendar LIE about when the day begins, month begins, and year begins, yet we are supposed to believe it when it uses the 7-day week?


We don't - he "WEEk" IS NOT PART OF THE CALENDAR of the Romans, or the calendar of the Catholics. it's formatted that way for convenience of those who keep both a week and a roman calends.

Watchman555 wrote:
9) How can the Roman calendar go from a lunar to a 10-day to a 8-day, to a 7-day week and be correct?


Again, WEEK customs are NOT PART OF THE CALENDAR. The Romans were never the source of the week.

Watchman555 wrote:
10) How can you accept that the RCC has said that the sole purpose of the Roman calendar is to determine when Easter is?


Again, WEEK and calendar ARE DIFFERENT THINGS. And who cares why they made the calendar change? It's a piece of hooey.


RESPONSE; in the above watchman asked three sensible questions and each time received no sensible response which was "WEEK" IS NOT PART OF THE CALENDAR. The reason I say the response makes no sense is because everyone knows that you cannot find the traditional weekly Sabbath without this particular calendar. It is a known fact that no one could find the traditional weekly Sabbath without it and yet someone suggested it is not part of the calendar but offers no proof. There is proof that you cannot find the traditional week without it.

Ps. the R.C. also lies about the hour because the scriptual hour is not based on 60 min. They are always 12 hours in a day but the hours vary in length during the seasons I can prove this if anyon is interested.