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East and West Proves Lunar Sabbaths

For the open discussion of all calendar related issues.

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BrotherArnold
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Postby BrotherArnold » 11 Feb 2008, 12:42

kickme wrote:
eriqbenel wrote:Once again my friend, you are behind the class. First of all, the New Moon doesn't need to be "seen". In fact, it can't be "seen" it is the dark moon. Check the Farmers Almanac, the US Naval Observatory, and NASA if you need proof.

Second, if I am following the luminaries above my head, I am not concerned with what is seen or not seen in Yisrael. The "moedim" in Scripture are not meant to be keep on "Yisrael time", they are meant to be keep on YHWH's heavenly luminary time over ALL the earth.

As the earth rotates on a particular "moed", the inhabitants underneath the moon begin their praises. If you can picture it, this means that a continuous praise and worship service commences for 24hours, beginning in one part of the earth and ending when the earth has completed it's rotation. This might "begin" and "end" in Yisrael, but that is speculation too. It doesn't matter, we have the Scripture's to follow in every part of the earth. If we do our part and follow it, YHWH will do His part and take care of the luminaries.

you missed the point entirely.
BroArnold stated the confusion caused by the person travelling east vs the one going west, that they would meet on the other side at odds with one another. I'm merely pointing out that one person on one side of the world in communication with someone on the other side of the world will be keeping the new moon day on differing days whether by physical observation or by the Farmers Almanac, the US Naval Observatory, or NASA. Simply because the moon will be in differing phases as it completes it's circuit. It is unavoidable, thus the point BroArnold brings up is pretty well moot since it is a common problem whether 7 day contiual or by lunar.



RESPONSE; I understand exactly what you're saying but I would like to point out the one major difference and that is if you go by the great lights of Genesis 1:14, they will set the date and if you go by the traditional calendar Man will set the date.

The traditional calendar is an artificial measurement of time it sets the beginning and the end of the year, the month, the week, the day, and even the hour and neither one of them is right. Our argument here is that some beliefs that they have the week right even though they cannot find it in Scripture but is based solely on a mathematical count and the blinded Jews preserved it even though the Scripture says he would cause them to forget it in lamentation 2:6 and they themselves admit that it was originally by the phases of the moon. I contend that the Roman calendar that we used to day has all-time wrong including the week. Most acknowledge knowledge the year, the month, the day, and the hour is wrong but because of tradition they don't want to turn loose of the week.

Bottom line is we can let nature take its course and let the great lights determined the dateline along with all the other times, or we can let Man set the dateline and the week and nature all of the other times but not these two because it kills a religious tradition. I might also mention that if you accept the man-made dateline which also set the first day of the month as to when it begins and ends. If we accept the dateline in order to keep everyone on track then I say you should accept the bogus month also for the same reason.

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...

Brother Arnold
See www.lunarsabbath.info

kickme
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Postby kickme » 11 Feb 2008, 21:35

I could care less about the dateline.
Yet the fact of the matter is, and I'm sure you know this, that at some point in the rotation of the earth and moon cycles, there will be some spot at which the moon isn't visible or calculatable to one person, and 2 hours west, it will be to another person. So technically, even following Yahweh's calendar, from the perspective of those two individuals, it is a different day of the month even though they are only a couple hours apart.
Doesn't matter whether one uses lunar reckoning or solar calculations, both ways will have the same problem

BrotherArnold
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Postby BrotherArnold » 12 Feb 2008, 02:26

kickme wrote:I could care less about the dateline.
Yet the fact of the matter is, and I'm sure you know this, that at some point in the rotation of the earth and moon cycles, there will be some spot at which the moon isn't visible or calculatable to one person, and 2 hours west, it will be to another person. So technically, even following Yahweh's calendar, from the perspective of those two individuals, it is a different day of the month even though they are only a couple hours apart.
Doesn't matter whether one uses lunar reckoning or solar calculations, both ways will have the same problem


RESPONSE; I have no problem with what you just stated. The only problem I have is that with one of the scenarios, man controls the Sabbath as to when it begins and ends with his man-made arbitrary dateline and with the other YHWH controls the dateline with the great lights of Genesis 1:14, why not choose the one found in Genesis 1:14 which is for days and years and appointments over the one that man says and then you will know that it is YHWH that Sanctifies you/set you apart and not man.

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 12 Feb 2008, 06:36

BrotherArnold wrote:I have no problem with what you just stated. The only problem I have is that with one of the scenarios, man controls the Sabbath as to when it begins and ends with his man-made arbitrary dateline and with the other YHWH controls the dateline with the great lights of Genesis 1:14, why not choose the one found in Genesis 1:14 which is for days and years and appointments over the one that man says and then you will know that it is YHWH that Sanctifies you/set you apart and not man.
Hi Arnold,

I would agree in concept, but if YHWH gave us a "dateline" that was impossible to keep up with [which yours is], then what would be the point? It would be like defining a "clean" edible animal, but creating the animal such that man could never catch it or kill it anyway.
Chuck Baldwin
By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

Luneee
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Postby Luneee » 12 Feb 2008, 07:38

chuckbaldwin wrote:
BrotherArnold wrote:I have no problem with what you just stated. The only problem I have is that with one of the scenarios, man controls the Sabbath as to when it begins and ends with his man-made arbitrary dateline and with the other YHWH controls the dateline with the great lights of Genesis 1:14, why not choose the one found in Genesis 1:14 which is for days and years and appointments over the one that man says and then you will know that it is YHWH that Sanctifies you/set you apart and not man.
Hi Arnold,

I would agree in concept, but if YHWH gave us a "dateline" that was impossible to keep up with [which yours is], then what would be the point? It would be like defining a "clean" edible animal, but creating the animal such that man could never catch it or kill it anyway.


Brother Chuck, could you point me to the place where Brother Arnold claimed to have his own dateline?

I missed that.

Shalom,

Jay Vincent.

BrotherArnold
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Postby BrotherArnold » 12 Feb 2008, 11:58

chuckbaldwin wrote:
BrotherArnold wrote:I have no problem with what you just stated. The only problem I have is that with one of the scenarios, man controls the Sabbath as to when it begins and ends with his man-made arbitrary dateline and with the other YHWH controls the dateline with the great lights of Genesis 1:14, why not choose the one found in Genesis 1:14 which is for days and years and appointments over the one that man says and then you will know that it is YHWH that Sanctifies you/set you apart and not man.
Hi Arnold,

I would agree in concept, but if YHWH gave us a "dateline" that was impossible to keep up with [which yours is], then what would be the point? It would be like defining a "clean" edible animal, but creating the animal such that man could never catch it or kill it anyway.



RESPONSE; first of all I disagree that the creation dateline cannot be Kept Up with because we have been doing it for 10 years now. I agree that I don't know where it would start each month around the earth, but that is not important to me or anyone according to their locality.

And secondly even if he could not be kept up with except in the locality you are in, it is still a better choice than the one that man can change on you and as Brother Eric pointed out they can thrust you into another day with the stroke of a pin, but each of us must choose.



Brother Arnold[/b]
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

BrotherArnold
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Postby BrotherArnold » 12 Feb 2008, 12:09

Luneee wrote:
chuckbaldwin wrote:
BrotherArnold wrote:I have no problem with what you just stated. The only problem I have is that with one of the scenarios, man controls the Sabbath as to when it begins and ends with his man-made arbitrary dateline and with the other YHWH controls the dateline with the great lights of Genesis 1:14, why not choose the one found in Genesis 1:14 which is for days and years and appointments over the one that man says and then you will know that it is YHWH that Sanctifies you/set you apart and not man.
Hi Arnold,

I would agree in concept, but if YHWH gave us a "dateline" that was impossible to keep up with [which yours is], then what would be the point? It would be like defining a "clean" edible animal, but creating the animal such that man could never catch it or kill it anyway.


Brother Chuck, could you point me to the place where Brother Arnold claimed to have his own dateline?

I missed that.

Shalom,

Jay Vincent.




RESPONSE; good point, Brother Chuck and I both agree that the new month begins at conjunction and I believe the first day of that conjunction/new moon begins at evening and when the conjunction happens it will be getting evening at the exact same time some where on the Earth and that will be the first official scriptural day of the creation month on earth, and it will go around the Earth. This is an absolute.

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

BrotherArnold
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Question for Brother Chuck And All

Postby BrotherArnold » 12 Feb 2008, 12:27

Can anyone believes that conjunction starts the new moon and evening or morning starts the day, honestly say that somewhere on earth, it will not be the TRUE first day of the month????

If we know From Nature when the month begins and when the day begins and realize that this natural event will happen some where on earth, why deny it?

It will be a true beginning of the first day of the month BUT with the man-made dateline, the first day of the month is corrupted, same as beginning the day at 12 midnight. Why can't we just let nature have her way? Caesar was first to change the nature new month/Times in fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy, you guys need to be ashamed of your selves for not doing more to pull yourself out of this.


Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 12 Feb 2008, 21:26

Luneee wrote:Brother Chuck, could you point me to the place where Brother Arnold claimed to have his own dateline?
Hi Jay,

The short answer is Arnold doesn't claim to have his own dateline. However, since the dateline that he describes is his own invention, that's why i call it "HIS dateline".
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

kickme
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Postby kickme » 12 Feb 2008, 21:27

Yep, I agree with that statement. Not quite sure I understand what the conjunction is exactly, but I do agree with the principle that Yahweh determines where the new moon determines the month as it travels around the world, thus resulting in a 'movable' time line each month.

The thing I fail to see is how this 'proves' that the 7 day continual is affected any differently. I mean theoretically, if a person got on a fast jet and had mid air refueling capability, this person's day could theoretically never end. I haven't delved into what would happen moonwise there but that notion is so ridiculous it's almost not even worth thinking about. Yet on the same hand, I'm not sure the 'problem' that arises with 1 seven day continual keeper going west and another going east then meeting on the opposite side of the earth is a such a real problem either doctrinally. After all, each one would have been affected only 1/2 a day anyway. No more problem than the guy flying into the sunset anyway.
Either way, 'tis a man made problem, just the same as the IDL is a man made problem.
So, I have a solution. Everyone should just keep in contact with someone in Jerusalem, as that's the place Yahweh chose to put his name anyway.

chuckbaldwin
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Re: Question for Brother Chuck And All

Postby chuckbaldwin » 12 Feb 2008, 21:42

BrotherArnold wrote:Can anyone believes that conjunction starts the new moon and evening or morning starts the day, honestly say that somewhere on earth, it will not be the TRUE first day of the month????
Hi Arnold,

Yes, "somewhere on earth". Since "the Law will go forth from Jerusalem", i believe the best choice for a dateline would be Jerusalem (with the entire "holy land" defined in Jerusalem's time zone). That way, the new month, Sabbaths & Feast days would all start at Jerusalem, and the rest of the world would follow.

Since Jerusalem is not yet the world's capital, man has put the dateline where it would impact the fewest people. Someone living across the street from you wouldn't be keeping Feasts a day ahead or behind you, and you wouldn't be reading tomorrow's newpaper because the newspaper company was a mile or 2 east of your "dateline" and you were to the west. And THAT's 1 of those "absolutes" you're always inventing. Perhaps it's because all your beliefs are "absolutes" (in your mind), is why it's so difficult to reason together.

I know you're aware of these things, because it was all debated on EliYah's forum. In the past you have either merely disclaimed them, or claimed they didn't matter.
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

kickme
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Postby kickme » 12 Feb 2008, 22:08

Something I thought of since my last post, and actually, it's sort of in agreement with chuckbaldwin, if there was a temple in Jerusalem, and each of us males were to go to Jerusalem for the 3 feasts we are commanded to appear in Jerusalem, how then could we appear on 'our' day that we determine in our home country?
Would we not be in error to appear on any other day no matter whether we would all be on a lunar or seven day continual? I mean, if we determined this from our global location what day of the month it is, and subsequently travelled to Jerusalem based on those days only to discover that the day or moon was different then, are not our days off?
Just a thought. I'll crawl back into my cave now, and let y'all has this out

Luneee
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Postby Luneee » 12 Feb 2008, 22:18

You mean you don't go to Jerusalem now?

[Kicking Kickme]

:mrgreen:

kickme
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Postby kickme » 12 Feb 2008, 22:24

awww, don't make me cry...
I so want to. My heart is there, and my body longs to be

BrotherArnold
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Postby BrotherArnold » 13 Feb 2008, 02:48

kickme wrote:Something I thought of since my last post, and actually, it's sort of in agreement with chuckbaldwin, if there was a temple in Jerusalem, and each of us males were to go to Jerusalem for the 3 feasts we are commanded to appear in Jerusalem, how then could we appear on 'our' day that we determine in our home country?
Would we not be in error to appear on any other day no matter whether we would all be on a lunar or seven day continual? I mean, if we determined this from our global location what day of the month it is, and subsequently travelled to Jerusalem based on those days only to discover that the day or moon was different then, are not our days off?
Just a thought. I'll crawl back into my cave now, and let y'all has this out



RESPONSE; could be that only the people in the locality of Jerusalem went up to the feast. The apostle Paul kept the feast in different places other than Jerusalem.
And there is a scripture that says in all the places (more than one) that He chooses to put His Name. Therefore Jerusalem Is Not the Only Place to Keep the Feast.

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info


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