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Answering Eliyah's Objections

For the open discussion of all calendar related issues.

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BrotherArnold
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Answering Eliyah's Objections

Postby BrotherArnold » 24 Jan 2008, 16:02

Shalom All,

I would like to make a suggestion that we all get together and answer Eliyah's objections to lunar Sabbath. I have not fully read his article but I did skim through It and saw some things that could possibly deceive the unsuspecting and unlearned. If those that are interested would pick one section or thing and respond to it as best they can and that the rest of us add to it if need be. we could then post our response to his objections for everyone to read.

Even Brother Chuck who does not believe in lunar Sabbaths as yet, can find something that he disagrees with or that he has not fully proven. This way all the work will not fall on one person and each will have his reward from YHWH.

Anyone who is interested please list what objection or objections that they wished to deal with and that way we will not all be working on the same thing and there's nothing wrong with several people giving their responses to one objection and we will publish all of them for the world to read now and possibly years to come.

I would like for us to be honest and if he has a seemingly good argument, I would like for us to deal with that first. Example, he proves that all Moed's or not Moon related because of the evening and morning sacrifices. The key is that the evening and morning sacrifices are not WORSHIP MOED and our whole subject is dealing with holy convocations and in Leviticus 23 when he says these are MY MOED'S, even Holy convocations, all of them are Moon related, there is a difference. Let's try to get this together as soon as possible for the sake of those that are being deceived. I will address the Saturn issue and Moed's, that is about as far as I have looked so far.


Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...

Brother Arnold
See www.lunarsabbath.info

chuckbaldwin
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Re: Answering Eliyah’s Objections

Postby chuckbaldwin » 24 Jan 2008, 17:32

BrotherArnold wrote:Even Brother Chuck who does not believe in lunar Sabbaths as yet, can find something that he disagrees with or that he has not fully proven. This way all the work will not fall on one person and each will have his reward from YHWH.
Hi Arnold,

Since you singled me out :P, i'll play along, but with 1 change. You implied that you only want responses that disagree with Tom's article, but in fairness, i'm going to offer 1 point on each side. The first is under "What constitutes proof?":
Tom/EliYah wrote:I've found that in order to really believe in the Lunar Sabbath doctrine, one would need to rely on a certain level of (highly interpretive) evidence rather than real "proof." Yet, strung throughout some Lunar Sabbatarian literature are very strong terms such as "conclusive proof." When examining this "conclusive proof," it becomes clear that the evidence offered is far from proof, let alone conclusive. We need to beware of someone's broad-brushed use of terms like this and be a good judge of whether or not what they offer is really "proof." It's easy to be swayed by such strong terminology, so we should be willing to make our own judgments about whether or not their evidence really is "proof."
The above paragraph needs to be seriously considered before harshly judging those of us who aren't fully convinced of the LS doctrine. Just substitute "Lunar Sabbatarian" above with the name of any other doctrine, and i'm sure all the LS folks would agree. My point is that repeating the phrase "conclusive proof" 50 times doesn't make any more conclusive than saying it once. "Longest" & "loudest" doesn't equate to Truth. If all (or even 1) of the LS arguments were "conclusive", i would have converted long ago.

Now, one of Tom's weakest points, IMO, is the section "Scriptures which declare the real Sabbath". Witout getting lengthy and listing each & every Scripture, my general comment is that none of them "conclusively prove" [see above] the continual cyclic Sabbath. They assume the 7-day cycle, just as many LS arguments assume the lunar-based reckoning. The following 2 statements are BOTH true (and i think any honest person would agree):

A saturday-Sabbath keeper would argue...
1. The repeating 7-day cycle is a reasonable assumption, lacking any conclusive commands to the contrary.
A lunar-Sabbath keeper would argue...
2. The repeating 7-day cycle is only an assumption, and therefore unprovable.

Now notice how each side might use BOTH true statements, each with their own "spin".

A saturday-Sabbath keeper would say, "#2, BUT #1".
A lunar-Sabbath keeper would say, "#1, BUT #2".

By simply changing the order, with a "BUT" in between, each side makes it point, BUT neither of which proves anything. And that's my offering to this topic. :|
Chuck Baldwin
By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

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Postby BrotherArnold » 24 Jan 2008, 19:43

Now, one of Tom's weakest points, IMO, is the section "Scriptures which declare the real Sabbath". Witout getting lengthy and listing each & every Scripture, my general comment is that none of them "conclusively prove" [see above] the continual cyclic Sabbath. They assume the 7-day cycle, just as many LS arguments assume the lunar-based reckoning. The following 2 statements are BOTH true (and i think any honest person would agree):

A saturday-Sabbath keeper would argue...
1. The repeating 7-day cycle is a reasonable assumption, lacking any conclusive commands to the contrary.
A lunar-Sabbath keeper would argue...
2. The repeating 7-day cycle is only an assumption, and therefore unprovable.

Now notice how each side might use BOTH true statements, each with their own "spin".

A saturday-Sabbath keeper would say, "#2, BUT #1".
A lunar-Sabbath keeper would say, "#1, BUT #2".

By simply changing the order, with a "BUT" in between, each side makes it point, BUT neither of which proves anything. And that's my offering to this topic.

_________________
Chuck Baldwin

RESPONSE; the above is why I say that we must go to the approved examples in scriptures. If there are no approved examples of a conclusive pinpointed weekly Sabbath that was not on the eighth of the month, 15th day, 22nd day, or 29th day of the month, then something is wrong. The scriptures are written for our examples and when I say "ConclusivE" pinpointed weekly Sabbath like in Exodus 16 chapter, I mean just that. No one can intelligently argue that the Sabbath was not on the eighth, 15th, 22nd, and 29th of the second month after leaving Egypt. I know some do not like the word absolute either but this is an absolute and I think you finally agreed that the Sabbaths were on these dates in Exodus 16 chapter. If Not let me know and we will go over it again and if we cannot agree on this approved examples in scripture that the Sabbath were on these dates by simply using deductive reasoning, there is no need of us continuing our discussion. I do not want to be found guilty of keeping a traditional Sabbath that cannot be found in scripture.

Brother Arnold

PS. Obviously you do not believe he has any conclusive proof of the traditional Sabbath but can you please give me his strongest argument and we can discuss it.
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

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Postby BrotherArnold » 26 Jan 2008, 11:24

Shalom Brother Greg and All,

Saturn's day was originally by the phases of the moon and corresponded with the creation Sabbath which is on the eighth day, 15th day, 22nd day, and 29th day of each month and this is why you CANNOT find a pinpointed Saturn's day or the weekly Sabbath on any other day than the ones above. Every time a pen pointed Saturn's day is mentioned in history, IT IS ALWAYS on one of the above date and the same is true with the weekly Sabbath in scriptures.

Before the moon was divorced from the calendar by Julius Caesar, the days of the weeks were named after the seven planets. The new Moon days were not counted when counting out the weeks and this can be Historically traced all the way back to Babylon, where Abraham and Noah's descendents settled after the flood. Babylon kept Lunar Sabbaths as I have proven in another article but I want to deal with Saturn's day in this article. The universal Jewish Encyclopedia also states that the new Moon days were not counted when counting out the weeks and that the weeks and Sabbaths were originally by the phases of the moon.

The Romans observed the "Same months"? in the "Same order" as did the Jews.

The Romans and the whole world used the creation calendar until people begin to change it as Daniel prophesied they would do. The Historical evidence shows that the Romans observed same lunar months as did the Jews. This is easily proven by the names of the months themselves.

In my world book Encyclopedia under calendar, it states that

"The earliest known Roman calendar consisted of 10 months and a year of 304 days. The Romans seem to have ignored the remaining 60 days, which fell in the middle of winter (January and February). The 10 months were named Martus, Aprilis, Junis, Quintitilis, Sextilis, September, October, November, and December. The last six names were taken from the words five, six, seven, eight, nine, and ten. Romulus, the first legendary ruler of Rome is supposed to have introduced this calendar about 738 B.C. To make it correspond to the solar year, the Romans added a short month of 22 or 23 days every second year.
Politics soon crept into the calendar. One king added two months, January and February, at the end of the year.

Notice the last six months corresponded IN NUMBER with the Hebrew months and still does today I.e. September always corresponded with the scriptural Hebrew seventh month/Tabernacles. The Roman "new Year" festival was celebrated in March.

This means that before Julius Caesar decided to quit using the moon in calculating the calendar, the months corresponded with the Hebrew and scriptural months, WHY NOT THE WEEKS ALSO, why is it so hard for us to believe that we inherited lies?

This explains why the day that they called Satern's day corresponded with the creation Sabbath. I am saying that the Romans and the whole world observed the creation calendar until the change that Daniel prophesied happened. And as I said before, this goes all the way back to Babylon and to Noah and Abraham who live in and around Babylon.

I have always held this view yet Eliyah/Tom accuses us of acknowledging that the Romans observed the traditional cycle and proceeds to show that the Jews and the Romans was on the same seven-day cycle because the day of Saturn and the creation Sabbath of the Jews corresponded. We do not deny that the day of Saturn and the Sabbath corresponded but we believe the Romans had not completely abandoned the lunar months and weeks at this time. We have demonstrated above how that the Romans were keeping the exact same months as the Hebrews because their seventh month each year was September etc. and this is only possible with the Hebrew/creation calendar. The Romans called the seventh month September but the Jewish people called it by a number or different name but it was the same month. The Romans called the seventh day of the week the day of Saturn and the Jewish people called it Sabbath, two different names for the same day and two different names for the same month.

The bottom line is that Brother Tom is running on a preconceived notion that the Romans were keeping the traditional cycle but offers no proof. On the other hand, the lunar Sabbath observers believes that the day they call Saturn and the Sabbath was by moon phases and we do offer proof because of the pinpointed day of Saturn and Sabbaths were always on the phases of the moon. We still challenge anyone to find a pinpointed day of Saturn or a weekly Sabbath that was not on one of the four major phases of the moon.

One example is found in "the Talmud the Steinsaltz Edition", Volume XIV Tractate Ta'anit Part II ( 1995 by Israel Institute for Talmudic Publications and Milta Books), pages 205-206. It says the following regarding the destruction of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem-built by Solomon, and destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar's army: Page 205: "then late on the day of the ninth, close to nightfall, they set the Temple on fire, and it continued to burn the entire next day, on the tenth." Page 206: "when the Temple was destroyed for the first time at the hands of Nebuzaradan [captain of the guard], that day was the ninth of Av, and it was the day following Shabbat, and it was the year following the Sabbatical Year.... And similarly when the Temple was destroyed a second time at the hands of Titus, the destruction occurred on the very same day

The above is no coincidence that these weekly Sabbaths were on the eighth day of the scriptural month. There has never been a pinpointed weekly Sabbath found, in ancient history or scripture, that was not by the phases of the moon. This is an absolute.

When a date goes down in history such as the signing of the Declaration of Independence, George Washington birthday, Pearl Harbor, 911, etc. which are no where near as momentous events as the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem's capture, it is not hard to look back and pinpoint these dates.

Another proof that the day that they call Saturn was originally on the 8th 15th 22nd and 29th is found on page 239 of the same book,
"A calendar of the time of Agustus (the Fasti of Philocalus dated "BEFORE" 27 B.C.) beside the date August 9th reads: "Soli indigiti in colle Quirinali-to the native Sun on Quririnal hill. (if the 9th was Sunday the eighth would have been Saturn's day) I have several more than I could quote but I am looking for only one place where the day of Saturn fell on any other day or where the weekly Sabbath fell on any other day. I will await someone's answer. I have been putting this challenge out for about 10 years now, even on shortwave radio and have had no conclusive Sabbaths or day of Saturn found on any other days and the reason for this is obvious when you take the scripture for what they say and get out of the traditions of men.


If Anyone can understand what I'm saying and dress this up to make it easier for someone to understand and perhaps add my proofs of the pinpointed days of Saturn that were always on one of the for major phases of the moon etc. Then we can present it and hope It will keep someone from shipwreck.
Last edited by BrotherArnold on 23 May 2008, 16:27, edited 1 time in total.
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

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Postby YHWHsavesdotcom » 28 Jan 2008, 20:53

The 'opinions' that Tom holds did not occur in a vaccum, or as he would have you percieve, the result of unbiased research.

I know 'Tom' very well. After he was exposed by some brethren a few years ago on some unrelated issues, as opposed to repenting and moving on, he sold the business that these brethren had built for themselves right out from under them...their bread and butter was taken (stolen) from them. He also placed me in the precarious position of choosing between him and them. As YHWH is my witness, I believed him to be in the wrong and sided to get him to repent and reconcile with these brothers and their families who were dependent on the business they had built together. As a result of my choice, and his decision to percieve it as a threat to HIS ministry, he fired me from the positions that I held, including that of administrator of his forums which I had held for some time.

It seems that it was also at this time that he decided to take the position regarding 'time' issues that he currently holds. It was no secret while I was there that I had been researching these issues of 'time' while there. In fact, I became a practicing 'lunar sabbath' observer while there.

After becoming estranged by the other brethren and myself as a result of his choices, it seems he also took up the banner to come against the research I had been doing. He banned me from his chat room and from his regular forums and moved all threads pertaining to issues of 'time', particularly as regards lunar sabbaths, to a 'private', hidden forum which was heavily censored and which he would allow me to post. I couldn't handle the censorship and left all together.

Nothing has been more clear to me than the fact that Tom has NOT been unbiased. It cannot be more plain to me, as a result of the personal attacks, manipulation, and censorship which I have endured at his hands for the past 5 years, that he is NOT unbiased (a perception he cunningly grooms).

As regarding answering his objections: If I felt that Tom was intellectually honest I would perhaps answer him. Since I am convinced that is not the case, I would ask all those who are honestly 'truth seekers' to read up on the issues and not get involved with cult personalities. Study to show yourself approved, don't merely approve of someone elses study.

With that said, let me quote from the book of Jude:

'These dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings...(they) speak abusively against whatever they do not understand, and even what they do understand, by instinct. Like unreasoning animals—these are the very things that destroy them.

Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam's error; they have been destroyed in Korah's rebellion.

These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves...they are wandering stars (planets for whom the satanic week is reckoned) for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

ObedYah

Last edited by YHWHsavesdotcom on 28 Jan 2008, 22:32, edited 1 time in total.

chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 28 Jan 2008, 22:26

BrotherArnold wrote:Before the moon was divorced from the calendar by Julius Caesar, the days of the weeks were named after the seven planets. The new Moon days were not counted when counting out the weeks...
Hi Arnold, That's an interesting statement. What happened to the 7 "planetary days", when Rome eliminated the moon and went to an 8-day week? I'm inferring from various postings that Constantine changed it from an 8-day week to a 7-day week. But where did the 7 planetary days go during the period between Julius & Constantine? Just wondering. Please answer in 25 words or less. :lol: (Just kidding - you can have 100 words.) :mrgreen:
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

BrotherArnold
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Postby BrotherArnold » 29 Jan 2008, 09:26

Not sure what happened and I'm not sure there was an eight Day week.

Strange that you mention this because I was going to check this out but have not had time. I did check back and Samuel's book From Sabbath to Sunday and saw some references where they had an eight Day market week which I believe could have on the eighth day once a month, counting from the new Moon, instead of every week. He described the calendar as having the letters A through H on one side and A through G on the other to represent the planetary week days and that’s what made me think that this could have been once a month market week instead of once a week and the A through H would be at the first of the month when the new Moon day was not counted in counting out the weeks. It makes more sense to me, that they would go to market once a month instead of once a week like we do today. I remember when I was growing up it was more of a once a month thing. I can see how they would have thought there was an eight Day week because of not knowing that the new moon day was not counted in counting out the weeks. Not saying this is the way it was, just a thought and will check it out more. I would like to see those calendars. I figure my interpretation of them will be better than theirs because of my understanding of lunar months and lunar weeks. I know you disagree with that but that’s all right we still can discuss things.

Brother Arnold

PS I tried but could not keep it in the hundred Word range and do it justice.
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

Luneee
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Postby Luneee » 29 Jan 2008, 17:13

I, for one, would like to see someone prove that Saturday is the true Sabbath. When someone starts trying, their opinion comes into it around the second or third sentence they literate, from my experience.

Here is a JEWISH authority stating that the sabbath was originally Lunar:

http://www.lunarsabbath.com/uje410.htm
Last edited by Luneee on 30 Jan 2008, 18:19, edited 1 time in total.

Luneee
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Postby Luneee » 29 Jan 2008, 17:16

By the way, the above image also shows that the New Moon was originally observed the same way as Shabbat.

This is JEWISH authority speaking such.

Hmmmm.

Bottom line, I believe that people cannot see the truth of lunar Sabbath, unless YHWH has opened their eyes to it.


Hos 2:1 Say ye unto your brethren, Ammi; and to your sisters, Ruhamah.
Hos 2:2 Plead with your mother, plead: for she is not my wife, neither am I her husband: let her therefore put away her whoredoms out of her sight, and her adulteries from between her breasts;
Hos 2:3 Lest I strip her naked, and set her as in the day that she was born, and make her as a wilderness, and set her like a dry land, and slay her with thirst.
Hos 2:4 And I will not have mercy upon her children; for they be the children of whoredoms.
Hos 2:5 For their mother hath played the harlot: she that conceived them hath done shamefully: for she said, I will go after my lovers, that give me my bread and my water, my wool and my flax, mine oil and my drink.
Hos 2:6 Therefore, behold, I will hedge up thy way with thorns, and make a wall, that she shall not find her paths.
Hos 2:7 And she shall follow after her lovers, but she shall not overtake them; and she shall seek them, but shall not find them: then shall she say, I will go and return to my first husband; for then was it better with me than now.
Hos 2:8 For she did not know that I gave her corn, and wine, and oil, and multiplied her silver and gold, which they prepared for Baal.
Hos 2:9 Therefore will I return, and take away my corn in the time thereof, and my wine in the season thereof, and will recover my wool and my flax given to cover her nakedness.
Hos 2:10 And now will I discover her lewdness in the sight of her lovers, and none shall deliver her out of mine hand.
Hos 2:11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.
Hos 2:12 And I will destroy her vines and her fig trees, whereof she hath said, These are my rewards that my lovers have given me: and I will make them a forest, and the beasts of the field shall eat them.
Hos 2:13 And I will visit upon her the days of Baalim, wherein she burned incense to them, and she decked herself with her earrings and her jewels, and she went after her lovers, and forgat me, saith the LORD.

The name of the Trust is on the FEDERAL RESERVE NOTE: IN GOD WE TRUST.


This truth being plainly disclosed, most still cannot see it, nor can they see the masonic/judiasm influence in the Vatican.

Your job, and mine, is simply to be a witness, not a "convincer."

Absent individual capacity, Jay Vincent.

chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 29 Jan 2008, 23:07

Jay, that gigantic graphic has rendered this page
unreadable without scrolling back & forth for
every line. You might consider editting it and making
it smaller.
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

eriqbenel
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Postby eriqbenel » 29 Jan 2008, 23:42

Jay, that gigantic graphic has rendered this page
unreadable without scrolling back & forth for
every line. You might consider editting it and making
it smaller.



It is like that on my computer. Chuck have you ever noticed that you are the only one who complains about the format of posts?

That should be a clue that it's YOUR computer and not the person posting with the problem.
Shalom in the name of YHWH,

Eriq

Torahwoman
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Postby Torahwoman » 29 Jan 2008, 23:56

Shalom...
ty Chuck, i was wondering why the page
wasn't appearing the same.... lol, me. :oops:
Anyway.. i have been trying to format my posts
to make them more readable.
Not calling it a 'problem'... just a minor
pesky nuisance. It isn't that difficult to try to be
accommodating to others when sharing
text-only posts, .... though i don't
know how a graphic could be altered to fit....

Thank you, Jay, for sharing! :D

tw
Ps. 139:1 "O YaHUaH You have searched me and know me."

chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 30 Jan 2008, 03:25

eriqbenel wrote:
Jay, that gigantic graphic has rendered this page
unreadable without scrolling back & forth for
every line. You might consider editting it and making
it smaller.

It is like that on my computer. Chuck have you ever noticed that you are the only one who complains about the format of posts?

That should be a clue that it's YOUR computer and not the person posting with the problem.
No, i'm just usually the FIRST to complain, but it's for the benefit of all. Since you say that it's also like that on YOUR computer, i don't understand why you would say that the problem is MY computer.

Look at Jay's post just before mine. I have to reduce the page to 60% in order to see the whole of each line, and then the print is so small i can barely read it anyway.

Also, notice Torawoman's post just before this one, i think she used the same technique i did in the above quoted post, that is to intentionally truncate each line so they're all visible. I didn't truncate in THIS post, so it should require scrolling to read it. I may come back and fix it; or not.
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

BrotherArnold
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Postby BrotherArnold » 30 Jan 2008, 18:14

Shalom Brother Greg,

Erik wants to know if he has been banned for something because he can't seem to access the form


Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

Luneee
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Postby Luneee » 30 Jan 2008, 18:21

I cannot log onto the forum if I am using firefox.

Hmmmm


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