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24-hour day

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yahuahreigns
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24-hour day

Postby yahuahreigns » 04 Nov 2007, 00:53

See my notes at http://lunarsabbath.info/_wsn/page17.html on this subject which conclusively prove that a 24-hour day can not scripturally begin at sunrise.


Brother Arnold

(moved from When does the day begin)

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Re: 24-hour day

Postby JMSchattke » 17 Nov 2007, 17:55

[quote="yahuahreigns"]See my notes at http://lunarsabbath.info/_wsn/page17.html on this subject which conclusively prove that a 24-hour day can not scripturally begin at sunrise.[quote]
The alternative could be that the sabbath ends at sunset, that is, sunrise to sunset. This would explain why the day of atonement is specifically mentioned as the evening of the 9th to the evening of the 10th.
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Postby Watchman555 » 17 Nov 2007, 22:03

Shalom All,

Brother Arnold, I completely understand where you are coming from in your study, yet there are a couple of things I would like to point out:


by Brother Arnold
12 "I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel: speak unto them, saying, At "Even" ye shall eat flesh, and in the morning ye shall be filled with bread; and ye shall know that I am YHWH your Elohim.

13And it came to pass, that at "Even" the quails came up, and covered the camp: and in the morning the dew lay round about the host.

The reason YHWH waited until evening before giving quail is because the Sabbath day which YHWH sanctified and hallowed at creation would end at evening, and the children would not be gathering the quail in Holy Time.


1. At this point there was no law given concerning the Sabbath and

Romans 4:15:
15 for the Torah works out wrath, for where there is no Torah there is no transgression.

So, if they had to catch and prepare the quail on the Sabbath, would that be considered a sin?

2. Does Yahuah work on the Sabbath?

John 5:16-17:
16 And because of this the Yehudim persecuted Yahusha, and were seeking to kill Him, because He was doing these healings on the Sabbath. 17 But Yahusha answered them, "My Father works until now, and I work.

Luke 13:14-16:
14 But the ruler of the congregation, responding, much displeased that Yahusha had healed on the Sabbath, said to the crowd, "There are six days on which men should work, so come and be healed on them, and not on the Sabbath day. 15 Then the Master answered him and said, "Hypocrite! Does not each one of you on the Sabbath loosen his ox or his donkey from the stall, and lead it away to water it? 16 "And this one, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has bound, look, for eighteen years, should she not be loosened from this bond on the Sabbath?

In like manner the children of Yisra'el were released from their bondage on the Sabbath.

Numbers 33:3:
3 So they departed from Ra'mesesin the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month, on the morrow of the Passover the children of Yisra'el went out with boldness before the eyes of all the Mitsrites,

by Brother Arnold

He would not be delivering Quail on this Holy sanctified Sabbath day for the children of Israel to catch, clean, cook and eat, and therefore the 15th day had to have "Ended at evening" or the Creator would have broken His own Law and caused his people to commit sin by delivering the quails on the Holy Sabbath for them to catch, clean, cook and eat. It seems that some people are willing to believe this in order to protect an erroneous understanding of Genesis 1. Is this what you want?

Do you really want to believe that the YHWH was a SINNER and broken His own Law???

Sin is this transgression of the Law and the Law teaches not to do any work on the weekly Sabbath. They were not even allowed to gather manna on the Sabbath, let alone quail.

The sunrise proponents have to believe that quail was given and gathered on the Holy Shabbat and I wont "Nothing" to do with a doctrine that forces me to believe such.

The quails arrived that night after the weekly Sabbath was over at evening, and it was on the first day of the week that the children of Israel gathered and ate them between the evenings i.e. the evening that ended the seventh day/15th and the evening that would end the first day of the week/16th. If this be not the case, a very serious death penalty sin had taken place, for them to have done this on the sacred Holy Sabbath day.


Now, when they were delivered from their bondage on the 15th ; which lunar reckoning considers the Sabbath, let us consider what took place on that day to see if there was a transgression of the law (that had not been given yet).

Exodus 12:34-38:
34 And the people took their dough before it was leavened, having their kneading bowls bound up in their garments on their shoulders. 35 And the children of Yisra'el had done according to the word of Mosheh, and they had asked from the Mitsrites objects of silver, and objects of gold, and garments. 36 And Yahuah gave the people favor in the eyes of the Mitsrites, so that they gave them what they asked, and they plundered the Mitsrites. 37 And the children of Yisra'el set out from Ra’meses to Sukkoth, about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides the little ones. 38 And a mixed multitude went up with them too, also flocks and herds, very much livestock.

Yahuah says concerning the Sabbath day " You do not do any work.

Could not find it in Torah; yet Yahuah explains here concerning bearing a burden on the Sabbath day.

YirmeYahu 17:21-22:
21 "thus said Yahuah, "Guard yourselves, and bear no burden on the Sabbath day, nor bring it in by the gates of Yerushalayim, 22 nor take a burden out of your houses on the Sabbath day, nor do any work. And you shall set apart the Sabbath day, as I commanded your fathers.

The point is, if we closely look at what the children of Yisra'el were commanded to do according to the word of Moshe " on the 15th -, we see the people took their dough before it was leavened having their kneading bowls bound up in their garments and on their shoulders, we see them plundering the Mitsrites for gold and silver and garments and the children of Yisra'el gathered all their belongings, including their flocks, herds, and livestock and set out on the journey. Do we see anything that they have done on THIS day that would be a violation of Torah?

According to my understanding, if we look at the quail incident to refute the sunrise understanding then we must also take into consideration what took place on the day the children of Yisra'el were released from bondage; which also took place on a Sabbath according to l.r.s.


~Greg

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Postby BrotherArnold » 20 Nov 2007, 05:18

Watchman555 wrote:Shalom All,

Brother Arnold, I completely understand where you are coming from in your study, yet there are a couple of things I would like to point out:

by Brother Arnold
12 "I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel: speak unto them, saying, At "Even" ye shall eat flesh, and in the morning ye shall be filled with bread; and ye shall know that I am YHWH your Elohim.

13And it came to pass, that at "Even" the quails came up, and covered the camp: and in the morning the dew lay round about the host.

The reason YHWH waited until evening before giving quail is because the Sabbath day which YHWH sanctified and hallowed at creation would end at evening, and the children would not be gathering the quail in Holy Time.


1. At this point there was no law given concerning the Sabbath and

Romans 4:15:
15 for the Torah works out wrath, for where there is no Torah there is no transgression.

So, if they had to catch and prepare the quail on the Sabbath, would that be considered a sin?

2. Does Yahuah work on the Sabbath?

John 5:16-17:
16 And because of this the Yehudim persecuted Yahusha, and were seeking to kill Him, because He was doing these healings on the Sabbath. 17 But Yahusha answered them, "My Father works until now, and I work.

Luke 13:14-16:
14 But the ruler of the congregation, responding, much displeased that Yahusha had healed on the Sabbath, said to the crowd, "There are six days on which men should work, so come and be healed on them, and not on the Sabbath day. 15 Then the Master answered him and said, "Hypocrite! Does not each one of you on the Sabbath loosen his ox or his donkey from the stall, and lead it away to water it? 16 "And this one, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has bound, look, for eighteen years, should she not be loosened from this bond on the Sabbath?

In like manner the children of Yisra'el were released from their bondage on the Sabbath.

Numbers 33:3:
3 So they departed from Ra'mesesin the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month, on the morrow of the Passover the children of Yisra'el went out with boldness before the eyes of all the Mitsrites,

by Brother Arnold

He would not be delivering Quail on this Holy sanctified Sabbath day for the children of Israel to catch, clean, cook and eat, and therefore the 15th day had to have "Ended at evening" or the Creator would have broken His own Law and caused his people to commit sin by delivering the quails on the Holy Sabbath for them to catch, clean, cook and eat. It seems that some people are willing to believe this in order to protect an erroneous understanding of Genesis 1. Is this what you want?

Do you really want to believe that the YHWH was a SINNER and broken His own Law???

Sin is this transgression of the Law and the Law teaches not to do any work on the weekly Sabbath. They were not even allowed to gather manna on the Sabbath, let alone quail.

The sunrise proponents have to believe that quail was given and gathered on the Holy Shabbat and I wont "Nothing" to do with a doctrine that forces me to believe such.

The quails arrived that night after the weekly Sabbath was over at evening, and it was on the first day of the week that the children of Israel gathered and ate them between the evenings i.e. the evening that ended the seventh day/15th and the evening that would end the first day of the week/16th. If this be not the case, a very serious death penalty sin had taken place, for them to have done this on the sacred Holy Sabbath day.


Now, when they were delivered from their bondage on the 15th ; which lunar reckoning considers the Sabbath, let us consider what took place on that day to see if there was a transgression of the law (that had not been given yet).

Exodus 12:34-38:
34 And the people took their dough before it was leavened, having their kneading bowls bound up in their garments on their shoulders. 35 And the children of Yisra'el had done according to the word of Mosheh, and they had asked from the Mitsrites objects of silver, and objects of gold, and garments. 36 And Yahuah gave the people favor in the eyes of the Mitsrites, so that they gave them what they asked, and they plundered the Mitsrites. 37 And the children of Yisra'el set out from Ra’meses to Sukkoth, about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides the little ones. 38 And a mixed multitude went up with them too, also flocks and herds, very much livestock.

Yahuah says concerning the Sabbath day " You do not do any work.

Could not find it in Torah; yet Yahuah explains here concerning bearing a burden on the Sabbath day.

YirmeYahu 17:21-22:
21 "thus said Yahuah, "Guard yourselves, and bear no burden on the Sabbath day, nor bring it in by the gates of Yerushalayim, 22 nor take a burden out of your houses on the Sabbath day, nor do any work. And you shall set apart the Sabbath day, as I commanded your fathers.

The point is, if we closely look at what the children of Yisra'el were commanded to do according to the word of Moshe " on the 15th -, we see the people took their dough before it was leavened having their kneading bowls bound up in their garments and on their shoulders, we see them plundering the Mitsrites for gold and silver and garments and the children of Yisra'el gathered all their belongings, including their flocks, herds, and livestock and set out on the journey. Do we see anything that they have done on THIS day that would be a violation of Torah?

According to my understanding, if we look at the quail incident to refute the sunrise understanding then we must also take into consideration what took place on the day the children of Yisra'el were released from bondage; which also took place on a Sabbath according to l.r.s.


~Greg




Shalom Brother Greg,

Before I reply, I would like to know do you beleave the lamb was eaten on the 14th or 15th?
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...

Brother Arnold
See www.lunarsabbath.info

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Postby eriqbenel » 15 Jan 2008, 04:09

13:19 And it came to pass, that when the gates of Yirushalayim began to be dark before the sabbath, I commanded that the gates should be shut, and charged that they should not be opened till after the sabbath: and some of my servants set I at the gates, that there should no burden be brought in on the sabbath day.

Just out of curiosity, I would be interested to know how the "dawn to dawn" people explain this verse.
Shalom in the name of YHWH,

Eriq

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Postby BrotherArnold » 15 Jan 2008, 06:33

Numbers 19:16 teaches that a man that touches a dead body shall be unclean for SEVEN DAYS and in verse 19 it teaches the seventh day ENDED at evening, therefore all the seven 24-hour days ended at evening. These seven days were obviously 24-hour day periods.

Verse 19 says “and on the SEVENTH DAY he shall purify himself, and wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and shall be CLEAN at even."

RESPONSE; if the seventh day ended at sunrise as some suggest, instead of evening, that would only be 6 and 1/2 days of being unclean instead of seven days. You would be half-day short, disobeying scripture, but if the seventh day ended at evening when the man was made CLEAN, it would be a full seven days of being UNCLEAN as verse 19 teaches. This alone disapproves the day beginning at sunrise theory.


Remember the man was made clean at evening of the full seventh day, according to scripture, not sun rise.

Verse 16 specifically says that the man shall be unclean for SEVEN DAYS and if the seven days did not end until sunrise, then the man WOULD NOT be unclean for seven days as the Scripture teaches.


In the book of Judges Chapter 14:12 Sampson made a bet with some men, that they could not answer his riddle WITHIN a period of SEVEN DAYS. In verse 18 the riddle was answered WITHIN the seven-day period. Verse 18 says, "And the men of the city said unto him on the SEVENTH DAY "BEFORE" the sun went down, (they answered the riddle before sundown on the seventh day)

Why was the phrase "BEFORE the sun went down" used, unless it emphasized that the time would have been up at sundown, but they answered it before the seventh day ended. I.e. it ended the seven days that were allotted to answer the riddle?

We all know that any bet such as the one above has to have a "DEADLINE" as to when the time is up and according to the conditions of verse 12, they had to answer it out WITHIN the seven-day period.

The above is like saying, in today's speech, "And the men of the city said unto him on the SEVENTH DAY "BEFORE" 12 midnight,

The reason for this is because in today's speech the day ends at 12 midnight and back then, they used sundown to end the day instead of 12 midnight.

They did not have to add "Before the sun went down", they could have just said they answered it on the seventh day period. They were merely stressing that the Riddle was answered before the seven days were up, at sundown. When you coupled this with Numbers 19:16-19, and the many other scriptures that conclusively proves the 24-hour day cannot scripturally began at morning.


Guinness 8:3 says that it was the END of the hundred and 50 days that the waters were abated and verse 11 says that the Dove came to Noah in the EVENING and then he knew that the waters had abated off the face of the earth. These hundred and 50 days were 24-hour day periods that ended at evening when the Dove returned.
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

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Postby chuckbaldwin » 16 Jan 2008, 02:28

BrotherArnold wrote:Guinness 8:3 says that it was the END of the hundred and 50 days that the waters were abated and verse 11 says that the Dove came to Noah in the EVENING and then he knew that the waters had abated off the face of the earth. These hundred and 50 days were 24-hour day periods that ended at evening when the Dove returned.
Arnold, I didn't know that the Dove's famous scouting expedition made it into the Guinness Book of World Records, but i may have missed it, seeing as how some people point out how "uninformed" i am. :lol:

Anyway (to get serious), the story is also in Scripture, and the Dove's "day" STARTED at DAWN and ENDED at SUNSET (a 12-hour day). It wouldn't make sense for Noah to send it out at night when it couldn't see anything. So the Dove's expedition doesn't prove anything about a 24-hour day.

The rest of your references were AFTER the Exodus, so i have no problem with them.
Chuck Baldwin
By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

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Postby BrotherArnold » 23 Jan 2008, 07:14

You missed my point.

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info


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