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Three days and three nights

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eriqbenel
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Postby eriqbenel » 14 Jan 2008, 21:24

Eriq,

Nothing you said convinces me that Yahshua didn't consider Jonah to be Scripture.

Among the books you listed...

Samuel IS Scripture (at least NOW it is).
So is the Chronicles of the Kings of Judah.
Jasher & Enoch should have been canonized, IMO.



What are you talking about Chuck???
Samuel is NOT among the books I listed.

The Chronicles and Kings in the Scripture are NOT the same books that I listed. Your "uninformed-ness" is showing...


And if you'll compare Jonah 1:17 with Matt.12:40, it sure looks like Yahshua was quoting it to me. But i won't quibble over that, if you want to call it a "reference" that's fine; it doesn't change the fact that Yahshua considered it to be authoritative, and a typological prophecy about Himself.



A "quote" is when you repeat verbatim the written or oral words of someone else. That is NOT what Messiah did, whether it looks like that to you or not.

If you said, "like Jonah was in the belly of the fish 3 days and 3 nights, I will be staying at the Holiday Inn 3 days and 3 nights", should we then believe that Jonah is a typology, prophecy about YOU????

Messiah used it as a reference. I reference to "length of time", not location. That's all! The rest is Christian, religious traditional doctrine.

Your belief about what Messiah "considered" the book of Jonah to be still doesn't change the FACT the Book of Corinthians states that His death, burial, and resurrection is "according to SCRIPTURE. And the FACT that Jonah was NOT considered Scripture at the time Messiah made that statement.

It would be helpful, if you would do a little research before you attempt to debate. It would make for a much more interesting discussion. [/b]
Shalom in the name of YHWH,

Eriq

chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 15 Jan 2008, 05:09

eriqbenel wrote:What are you talking about Chuck???
Samuel is NOT among the books I listed.
Yes, Eriq, it most certainly IS. Go back and read your list of books.
The Chronicles and Kings in the Scripture are NOT the same books that I listed. Your "uninformed-ness" is showing...
I agree that Kings is probably different - i believe it is the "Book of the Kings of Israel & Judah". But i believe that Chronicles in Scripture IS the one you listed as "Chronicles of the Kings of Judah". Of course, i could be wrong.
A "quote" is when you repeat verbatim the written or oral words of someone else. That is NOT what Messiah did, whether it looks like that to you or not.
Yes, Eriq, i know what a quote is. It's not necessary to keep bringing it up.
If you said, "like Jonah was in the belly of the fish 3 days and 3 nights, I will be staying at the Holiday Inn 3 days and 3 nights", should we then believe that Jonah is a typology, prophecy about YOU??
YES! IF i said that, then that's what i would mean. Otherwise i would have no reason to mention Jonah in the 1st place. Of course,i wouldn't say that in the context given.
Messiah used it as a reference. I reference to "length of time", not location. That's all! The rest is Christian, religious traditional doctrine.
That's odd; i thought He mentioned BOTH the time (3d+3n), AND the location (belly of fish).
Your belief about what Messiah "considered" the book of Jonah to be still doesn't change the FACT the Book of Corinthians states that His death, burial, and resurrection is "according to SCRIPTURE. And the FACT that Jonah was NOT considered Scripture at the time Messiah made that statement.
I have already shown that the Messiah DID consider it Scripture, regardless of what the rest of the apostate Jews considered it.

Eriq, your desperate need to put me down shows throughout your post(s).
You might pause to consider what it's doing TO YOU.
Chuck Baldwin
By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

eriqbenel
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Postby eriqbenel » 15 Jan 2008, 13:59

Eriq, your desperate need to put me down shows throughout your post(s).
You might pause to consider what it's doing TO YOU.


I haven't put you down Chuck. I have merely pointed out some of the plain error and illogical nature of most of your comments.

That actually makes me feel better :D

Case in point:

I wrote:

If you said, "like Jonah was in the belly of the fish 3 days and 3 nights, I will be staying at the Holiday Inn 3 days and 3 nights", should we then believe that Jonah is a typology, prophecy about YOU??

Chuck replied:

YES! IF i said that, then that's what i would mean. Otherwise i would have no reason to mention Jonah in the 1st place. Of course,i wouldn't say that in the context given.



That is just plain ridiculous. Sorry. I have a passion/need to point out absurdity like this. Hopefully, so that others won't be fooled by it. Anybody sensible would have looked at my statement and seen the obvious.


I have already shown that the Messiah DID consider it Scripture, regardless of what the rest of the apostate Jews considered it.


You haven't done any such thing. But you do sound like Joey (Sorry for the put down). :lol:

Maybe he can convert you to lunar Sabbaths too, although you would only be keeping half of it.

Nevertheless, you still cannot get around the fact that IF Messiah considered it Scripture (which He absolutely did NOT at the time), then Messiah directly CONTRADICTS the writer of 1 Corinthians, who was referring to ANOTHER Scripture. Both cannot be correct.
Shalom in the name of YHWH,



Eriq

chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 16 Jan 2008, 02:47

eriqbenel wrote:If you said, "like Jonah was in the belly of the fish 3 days and 3 nights, I will be staying at the Holiday Inn 3 days and 3 nights", should we then believe that Jonah is a typology, prophecy about YOU??

Chuck replied:
YES! IF i said that, then that's what i would mean. Otherwise i would have no reason to mention Jonah in the 1st place. Of course, i wouldn't say that in the context given.
That is just plain ridiculous. Sorry. I have a passion/need to point out absurdity like this. Hopefully, so that others won't be fooled by it. Anybody sensible would have looked at my statement and seen the obvious.
What is "absurd" is that you would even think that i would say such a silly thing. And anybody sensible might wonder why you think that sitting in whale's belly with all the stinking gastric juices would be comparable to a comfortable stay at a nice Motel. :lol:
But you do sound like Joey (Sorry for the put down). :lol:
What putdown? I thought it was a compliment. :wink:
Maybe he can convert you to lunar Sabbaths too, although you would only be keeping half of it.
With his patience & tact, he might, but you lost me on the "half".
Nevertheless, you still cannot get around the fact that IF Messiah considered it Scripture (which He absolutely did NOT at the time), then Messiah directly CONTRADICTS the writer of 1 Corinthians, who was referring to ANOTHER Scripture. Both cannot be correct.
I'm sorry, but the only place in 1 Cor. where it talks about the Messiah fulfilling Scripture, it makes no specific mention of what Scripture He fulfilled. So you may be inferring 1 Scripture, while i'm inferring another.
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

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Watchman555
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The Road to Am'maus and The Sign of Yonah

Postby Watchman555 » 12 Mar 2014, 20:26

By Yahusha's Own Words and the witness Scripture confirms that He could not have spent three days and three nights in the grave:

Matt. 16:20-21: 20 Then He warned His taught ones that they should say to no one that He is Yahusha the Messiah.
21 From that time Yahusha began to show to His taught ones that it was necessary for Him to:

1. go to Yerushalayim, and
2. to suffer much from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and
3. be killed, and
4. to be raised again the third day.

At this time I will not post any other Scripture that confirms this Scripture above, but we can go through them all if we need to.

Luke 24:18-21: 18 And the one whose name was Qleophas answering, said to Him, "Are You the lone visitor in Yerushalayim who does not know what took place in it these days?"
19 And He said to them, "What?"And they said to Him, "Concerning Yahusha of Natsareth, who was a Prophet mighty in deed and word before Elohim and all the people,
20 and how the 2. chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to be condemned to death, and 3. impaled Him.
21 "We, however, were expecting that it was He who was going to redeem Yisra'el. But besides all this, 4. today is the third day since these matters took place.

At this point they were IN the third day. How could He be in the grave for the third day and yet be risen the third day? See the point?

With the aforementioned Scriptures, it is impossible for Yahusha to have spent three days and three nights in the grave when the three day count that Yahusha was referring to started from the time He went to Yerusalem and the third day was first day morning at sunrise; that was not the end of the third day, but was the beginning of the third day daylight period. Even without taking into consideration when the day begins, it is still an impossibility for Him to be in the grave three days and three nights.

Also, even if you don't consider going to Yerusalem in the count to the third day the sufferings and impalement itself was counted in the three days.

Concerning the sign of Jonah,


Matt. 12:39-40: 39 But He answering, said to them, “ A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign shall be given to it (a wicked and adulterous generation) except the sign of the prophet Yonah.
40 “For as Yonah was three days and three nights in the stomach of the great fish, so shall the Son of Adam be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Notice this sign was given to a wicked and adulterous generation and that wicked and adulterous generation took the parable as being in the grave three days and three nights; which is obvious because they set a watch. My thing is why would we apply the exact same understanding to the three days and three nights as the wicked and adulterous generation did? Yahusha says concerning the parables:


Mark 4:9-12: 9 And He said to them, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”
10 And when He was alone, those about Him, with the twelve, asked Him about the parable.
11 And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the secret of the reign of Elohim, but to those who are outside, all are done in parables,
12 so that “˜seeing they see but do not perceive, and hearing they hear but do not understand, lest they should turn and their sins be forgiven them.” “

Yahusha’s Words said that those who were on the outside all are done in parables and seeing they do not perceive and hearing they do not understand. To say that the chief priest and scribes understood what Yahusha was saying about the parable of Jonah makes these Scriptures a paradox. Because He said they would not see or hear (understand). How could Yahusha say that those on the outside would not understand and yet the chief priest and scribes understood?

Matt. 27:62-66: 62 On the next day, which was after the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees gathered together to Pilate,
63 saying, “Master, we remember, while He was still alive, how that deceiver said, “˜After three days I am raised.”
64 “Command, then, that the tomb be safeguarded until the third day, lest His taught ones come by night and steal Him away, and should say to the people, “˜He was raised from the dead.” And the last deception shall be worse than the first.”
65 So Pilate said to them, “You have a watch, go, safeguard it as you know how.”
66 And they went and safeguarded the tomb, sealing the stone and setting the watch.

So they set the watch according to their understanding. Yet I believe that to understand the parable of Jonah we must focus more on:

Matt. 12:41-42: 41 “Men of Nineweh shall stand up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Yonah, and look, a greater than Yonah is here.
42 “The sovereigness of the South shall rise up in the judgment with this generation and shall condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Shelomoh, and look, a greater than Shelomah is here.

Luke 13:31-33 31 On the same day there came certain Pharisees, saying to Him, Get out and go from here, for Herodes wishes to kill You.
32 And He said to them, Go, say to that fox, See, I cast out demons and perform healings today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.
33 But I have to journey today, and tomorrow, and the day following, because it is not fitting for a prophet to perish outside of Yerushalayim.

In these verses Yahusha says that He shall be perfected the third day. The day He rose He was perfected in the new body in which He received, the incorruptible one - not like the earthly one that sees corruption. The mortal putting on the immortal. Not that Yahusha was corrupt in any way, other than the sins of the whole world being put upon Him.

So, how did the perfection take place? Was it through spending three days and three nights (72 hours) in the grave? Or did the perfecting take place from the time He went to Yahrusalem and was handed over to the chief priest, mocked, scourged, and beaten, and hung on a tree to die, without saying a word in malice?


John 15:13: 13 No one has greater love than this: that one should lay down his life for his friends.

I feel very strongly that if the sign of Yonah does not mean three days and three nights (or 72 hours) in the grave, we should have a clear and concise understanding of what this sign truly meant. I know for the former understanding verses 39 and 40 have been singled out without consideration of verses 41 and 42. Also for the former understanding verses 39 and 40 are applied to the now and a physical understanding of three days and three nights. Yet verses 41 and 42 speak of a time of judgment with two examples, the men of Nineweh and the sovereigness of the south. Both of these examples are referring to a time, not in the now, when He said it, but a time in the future, which so far has been some 2,000 years. The day for a thousand year application.

2 Kepha 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with Yahuah as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

I feel very confident that we can apply this same rule for the sign of Yonah. First of all, let’s get an understanding of the phrase “heart of the earth”. Let’s consider MattithYahu 11:1 through 13:52. All these events had taken place on the same day. Its interesting to note that 11:20-24 are dealing with repentance and the day of judgement. Going on over to 12:41-42 directly after the sign of Yonah, here again Yahusha speaks of repentance and judgement.

So let’s examine that phrase: “heart of the earth”


HEART

#2588 ““ kardia 1) the heart A) that organ in the animal body which is the center of the circulation of he blood, and hence was regarded as the seat of physical life. B) denotes the center of all physical and spiritual life 1) the vigor and sense of physical life 2) the center and seat of spiritual life a) the soul or mind, as it is the fountain and seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, endeavors b) of the understanding, the faculty and seat of the intelligence c) of the will and character d) of the soul so far as it is affected and stirred in a bad way or good, or of the soul as the seat of the sensibilities, affections, emotions, desires, appetites, passions C) of the middle or central or inmost part of anything, even though inanimate


Just by looking at the definition alone, there is absolutely no indication that the heart is ever representative of death, or the grave. On the contrary the heart represents life or seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, and endeavors; which is quite clearly taught in Scripture.

Proverbs 27:19-20 19 As in water face reflects face, So a man’s heart reflects a man.
20 The grave and destruction are not satisfied; So the eyes of man are not satisfied.

Notice that the man’s heart reflects the man and the grave and destruction are likened to the eyes.

Proverbs 21:2: 2 All a man’s ways are right in his own eyes, But YAHUAH weighs the hearts.

Proverbs 14:12 12 There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.

Yahusha explained the heart right before the Scribes and Pharisees asked for the sign.

Matt. 12:34-35: 34 Brood of adders! How are you able to speak what is good being wicked? For the mouth speaks from the overflow of the heart.
35 “The good man brings forth what is good from the good treasures of his heart, and the wicked man brings forth what is wicked from the wicked treasure.

I believe fully that this should be the context in which the heart should be taken. I mean, think about it, He just said this right before he gave the wicked and adulterous generation the sign, or parable, or Yonah.

Matt. 6:21: 21 “For where your treasure is, there your heart shall be also.

So if your treasure is Yahusha, there your heart shall be also. This is one of the keys to understanding that the heart of man is where He will be spending the three days and three nights.

Matt: 13:15: 15 for the heart of this people has become thickened, and their ears are hard of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, lest they should understand with their heart, and turn back, and I heal them.’

EARTH

#1093 ge

1) arable land 2) the ground, the earth as a standing place 3) the main land as opposed to the sea or water 4) the earth as a whole A) the earth as opposed to the heavens B) the inhabited earth, the abode of men and animals 5) a country, land enclosed within fixed boundaries, a tract of land, territory, or region


Although in the definition of earth it does not refer to the grave, we do know that the physical grave is in the dirt of the earth. So let us go to the Scriptures to get a contextual understanding of the earth.

Genesis 1:7 7 And Yahuah Elohim formed the man out of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils breath of life. And the man became a living being.

Genesis 3:14 14 And Yahuah Elohim said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, you are cursed more than all livestock and more than every beast of the field. On your belly you are to go, and eat dust all the days of your life.

This is one of the oldest Scriptural understandings there are. It is fact that humans are literally made from the dust of the ground or earth. Clearly in 3:14 this is where Yahuah had given the adversary the ability to inhabit the humans.

Genesis 3:19 19 “By the sweat of your face you are to eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are, and to dust you return.

Yahusha elaborates on this with the parable of the sower and the seed. Notice verse 13:1 states that it was the same day in which the sign of Yonah was discussed. Yahusha goes on to explain this parable to His taught ones in 13:19-23.

(This is another key to understanding the heart of the earth ~)


Matt. 13:19-23 19 “When anyone hears the word of the reign, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart . This is that sown by the wayside.
20 “And that sown on rocky places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy,
21 yet he has no root in himself, but is short-lived, and when pressure or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
22 “And that sown among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the worry of this age and the deceit of riches choke the word, and it becomes fruitless.
23 “And that sown on the good soil is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and yields some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

This parable is very clear. Yahusha is saying that we are earth, described by the types of soils in which the seeds are sown; indicating them to be sown in the heart. This one parable here can conclusively give the understanding of “heart of the earth” for all of the elements are there. So with all this taken into consideration, I will try to explain the “alternative” understanding ~

First of all, let us consider the Body of Messiah. We know Yahusha is the head of the body, and His body is made up of the members, or the body parts. Yahusha was raised the third day, in like manner the Body of Messiah will also be raised on the third day, but this third day has the millennial context.


Hoshea 6:2: “˜After two days He shall revive us, on the third day He shall raise us up, so that we live before Him.

This is very reminiscent of the sufferings for Messiah in which He endured until He was raised up on the third day. In other words those who believe in Messiah spending two days or two thousand years suffering hardships, trials, and persecutions to be raised up on the third day as the Messiah rose from the dead on the third day.

Rev. 20:4-6 4 And I saw thrones ““ and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them ““ and the lives of those who had been beheaded because of the witness they bore to Yahusha and because of the Word of Elohim, and who did not worship the beast, nor his image, and did not receive his mark upon their foreheads or upon their hands. And they lived and reigned with Messiah for a thousand years
5 (and the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended) ““ this is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and set-apart is the one having part in the first resurrection. The second death possesses no authority over these, but they shall be priests of Elohim and of Messiah, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

So we can conclude that the third day spoken of in Hoshea is the same thousand year period that is spoken of here in Revelation; which is referred to as the third day in Hoshea. Now by using simple math we can conclude that it has been approximately 2,000 years since Messiah gave us a renewed covenant or two days. Now when He returns that will put us in the third day that will carry us through to the end of the millennium, in which the prophecy in YirmeYahu will be fulfilled or completed.

YirmeYahu 31: 31-34 31 “See, the days are coming,” declares YAHUAH, “when I shall make a new covenant with the house of Yisra’el and with the house of Yehudah,
32 not like the covenant I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Mitsrayim, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,” declares YAHUAH. 33 “For this is the covenant I shall make with the house of Yisra’el after those days, declares YAHUAH: I shall put My Torah in their inward parts, and write it on their hearts. And I shall be their Elohim, and they shall be My people.
34 “And no longer shall they teach, each one his neighbor, and each one his brother, saying, “˜Know YAHUAH,’ for they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares YAHUAH. “For I shall forgive their crookedness, and remember their sin no more.”

Now let us remember what took place on the road to Ammaus, and what Yahusha did ~

Luke 24: 25-27 25 And He said to them, “O thoughtless ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
26 “Was it not necessary for the Messiah to suffer these and to enter into His esteem?”
27 And beginning at Mosheh and all the Prophets, He was explaining to them in all the Scriptures the matters concerning Himself.

Notice Yahusha began with Mosheh, “the Torah”, and the prophets and explained how they concerned Him. Yahusha was explaining the Word and it was being sown in their hearts, which is exactly what will take place during the millennium. The Word, Yahusha, will be written on their hearts. This will take place not only now, but during the millennial period in which Yahusha returns continuing through the entire third day. Yahusha will continue to be in the heart of the earth, culminating at the end of the seventh day millennial rest period in which the eighth day will be ushered in, a day of new beginnings in which there will be a new heaven and a new earth.

YeshaYahu 65:17 17 “For look, I am creating new heavens and a new earth, and the former shall not be remembered, nor come to heart.

This Scripture here is the one that takes us to the end of the third day in the sign, or parable, of Yonah. ?


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