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Beware of the "Lunar Sabbath" by Tom

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Beware of the "Lunar Sabbath" by Tom

Postby Watchman555 » 12 Jan 2008, 22:15

Here it is folks, the study we've all been waiting for:

Tom has posted this on his website, sad to say that people who use the lunar reckoning cannot refute him there; although, here you are given release to make comments or ask questions, hopefully we will be able to get them back to Tom.

http://www.eliyah.com/lunarsabbath.html

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Postby Luneee » 13 Jan 2008, 00:06

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Sad, just sad

Postby kathybyers2000 » 13 Jan 2008, 16:51

Just another person willing to judge what is good and evil according to their own understanding of the Word of YHWH. And then bully it down the throats of believers and "would-be" believers. So be it.

Praying for all contention to end. YHWH's will be done.

Shalom,

Kathy

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Re: Sad, just sad

Postby chuckbaldwin » 14 Jan 2008, 03:54

kathybyers2000 wrote:Just another person willing to judge what is good and evil according to their own understanding of the Word of YHWH. And then bully it down the throats of believers and "would-be" believers.
Hi Kathy,

Is that your response to the article that "Lunee" posted, or the one that EliYah posted in his forum?

Anyway, i just finished reading EliYah's article, and would recommend that everyone here read it. The link is in the 1st post on this page. Here's my response that i posted on EliYah's forum:

I finished the article, and i thought it covered the "trunk of the tree" and the major "branches" very well. There were some points that hadn't been raised on the forum, namely the Talmudic discussions of "what if the new moon falls on a Sabbath", or "what if Abib 16 falls on a Sabbath". Like wise, the historical quotes by Roman historians & military men were quite convincing, that the Jews in the 1st century, and just before & after, were indeed observing the day that the Romans called "Saturns' day".

The only real "error" i noticed wasn't directly related to LS, and that was about the Creation days starting at evening. The Hebrew text clearly shows them starting at dawn.
Chuck Baldwin
By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

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The articles

Postby kathybyers2000 » 14 Jan 2008, 13:08

I was referring to what Tom had written. I hadn't checked out the base and content of the other article. However, I find it very hard to read any article written to show others that they are wrong in their understanding and that is what the article that Tom wrote appears to be doing.

It is contentious in nature and YHWH would not have me to be contentious. He has sent one already to be contentious for the word of YHWH. When a man writes a good article showing why their own understanding is good according to the Word of YHWH and not showing that others are WRONG, then I will give them my time and my heart and minds consideration.

As far as this article by tom goes, it is nothing more than a fully biased, pathetic attempt at a fleshy man working to remove blessing and understanding that YHWH has established within certain hearts. He is a thief, for this reason in my heart, and I have no desire to give him, or his accusatory words serious consideration. Perhaps if he should ever write an article that supports his own understanding (instead up debunking mine) I will give that article a look.

In other words, he isn't giving me an explanation of why his understanding works for him in his own relationship with YHWH, he is TRYING to force feed me an explanation of why my understanding doesn't work for me in my relationship with YHWH. How can any man, especially one who has NEVER ONCE kept time in this manner, KNOW with ALL CERTAINTY that I am not blessed to understand YHWHs timing? The answer is simple, he can't. He is not me and he does not know where the spirit of YHWH has moved me. Indeed, he REFUSES to understand where the spirit of YHWH has moved me and works against the spirit of YHWH to remove this blessing from my life.

Yes, these are very personal statements. And any believer who has been lead to this by the spirit of YHWH would have to agree. He is biased. He cannot objectively report on the matter because he is a lover of the way that he knows now. And because he has written this strong refutation against using the light in the moon to number days, if the spirit of YHWH should ever work to move him in to this understanding, his calloused heart will be untouchable so that he can continue to support his biased view in this report - it is now written - so be it.

No thanks - I have no desire to support such biased and unobjectionable material that only works to build a stone wall up around any mans heart. Especially when that piece is written by a man who has not walked a day in my shoes.

So, I thank you Chuck, for encouraging me to give this biased garbage a look, but no thanks.

shalom,

Kathy

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Postby eriqbenel » 14 Jan 2008, 21:30

I finished the article, and i thought it covered the "trunk of the tree" and the major "branches" very well. There were some points that hadn't been raised on the forum, namely the Talmudic discussions of "what if the new moon falls on a Sabbath", or "what if Abib 16 falls on a Sabbath". Like wise, the historical quotes by Roman historians & military men were quite convincing, that the Jews in the 1st century, and just before & after, were indeed observing the day that the Romans called "Saturns' day".

The only real "error" i noticed wasn't directly related to LS, and that was about the Creation days starting at evening. The Hebrew text clearly shows them starting at dawn.


:lol:

Your statement regarding the day beginning at dawn "clearly shows" that your perspective on lunar Sabbaths isn't credible either.
Shalom in the name of YHWH,

Eriq

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Some simply do not have eyes to see

Postby LittleBoyDrinkingWine » 15 Jan 2008, 01:45

I just finished reading Elyah's atricle.

I must say, it's a little more than the typical rebuke a regular Joe would bring to the table. However, a lot of his arguement stems from the mind set that the jews of the first century was on the same page as Messiah. I once believed this to be true myself, but not any longer.

Matt. 16:3 proves that the Jews of the first centruy did not have a clue as to how to determine anything having to do with the calendar. Yahshua's says,

".......You are hypocrites, you can discern the face of the sky, but you can not discern the signs (same word used in Gen. 1:14, Exodus 31:13, Ezk. 20:20) of the moedim (same word used in Gen. 1:14, Lev. 23:2-3, Psalms 104:19). All according to the LXX.

Thus, in my mind, the historical proofs from Josephus and the first century, that say Messiah did as the Jews of His day did, are simply sophetries, based upon a false argument or foundation.

I also thought Eliyah's answers to the questions posed at the bottom were not very well thought out. It was almost like he just answered them on a whim, to get them out of the way.

I want to address the Amos. 8:5 New Moon, though.

There is no way this New Moon is speaking of Trumpets. The context is the Day Of YHWH, which is from Pentecost to Pentecost. The subject is a basket of summer fruit, which is wheat, olives and grapes. These are fruits attributed to Pentecost, not Trumpets. In fact there is not any fruit at all attibuted to Trumpets and there was not any hurry to sell anything at the time of trumpets. Everything was harvested and sold already, in preparation for the Fall Feast.

Also, the Moedim arguement that says there are other passage that point to moedim that are not moon related doesn't hold any water in my mind either. What he is missing is that each day is an appointed time or moedim and that these moedim (each day) IS FOREVER TIED TO THE MOON. The Moedim are lunar/solar, not just lunar. Each day has to include both the sun and the moon in order for the order of YHWH's calendar to be correct. Whether it be a weekly Sabbath or an annual Sabbath, the moon and the sun have to do their part or YHWH is a lier.

YHWH said, tghe two great lights were made for signs and moedim and for days and years. The signs and moedim are the annual and weekly Sabbath and the chief body that governs them is the moon with help from the sun. The days and years are, days and years the shief body that governs them is the sun, with help from the moon.

You have to have the moon to tell you what day of the month the day in question is. You have to have the moon to tell you what New Moon is the first New Moon of the year at the beginning, thus both are needed to determine the days and years.

While the moon is truly the governing body of the sabbath (the sign between YHWH and Israel) and all the moedim, you have to have the sun to rise and fall to tell you when each Sabbath (worship moedim) ends.

So both are required in YHWH's calendar or something is wrong.

Saturday Sabbath proponents would have us to believe that the Sabbath is governed only by the sun. This to me is the biggest agrument for the truth of Lunar Sabbaths.

I also thought there should have been something from Tom that took the steps to prove saturday was the Sabbath from the scripture, but no effort was made on that behalf. All he did was quote the passages we all know and make the same old boring case that the Sabbath means seventh day and the seventh day was what the jews kept which was Saturday.

Just my two cents worth. At the end of the day, I still believe YHWH opens the minds of those who are truly circumcised in heart to see restored truth. I am more than a little confused as to why I see these things and many others, who I feel have much more character than I do, can not make the same conclusion, but in time, I feel Isa. 52:8 will come to pass and it won't matter who seen what, first.

LBDW

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Postby eriqbenel » 15 Jan 2008, 04:45

I just finished reading Elyah's atricle. I must say, it's a little more than the typical rebuke a regular Joe would bring to the table.



No it isn't! It's the same old slop warmed over. The very typical traditionalist hanging desperately onto the familiar and comfortable.

Blindly chaining himself to his beliefs so deeply that he will scratch and paw the face of facts and truth in order to protect his position. He didn't say anything that we haven't heard or addressed. What he chose to do was ignore the light he was given. Shame on him and his article.

The fact that he makes his claim hidden behind the cloak of his website where no one can challenge him, is an act of cowardice IMO. It indicates that he isn't really sure of the facts or the Scripture. Someone who is sure of his beliefs, isn't afraid of open discussion and challenges.

There are are opponents and skeptics of the lunar Sabbath truth whose opinions and doctrines I still respect. Tom is no longer one of them. His obvious bias toward the subject makes all of his scholarship suspect in my eyes.

I pray that his article backfires in his face. I hope it sparks a tidal wave of interest and study on the subject that is so powerful, he is forced to expel most of his forum members.

It will backfire indeed. I have been able to extract almost a thousand email addresses from Eliyah's website. Despite Toms attempt to shield the people from sound discussion of the subject. A sharp rebuttal to his article will be composed and sent via email to them.

The word of truth cannot be stopped.

I am thankful there is a place here for them to go.
Shalom in the name of YHWH,



Eriq

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Re: The articles

Postby chuckbaldwin » 15 Jan 2008, 05:38

kathybyers2000 wrote:I was referring to what Tom had written.
Hi Kathy,

To make sure we're on the same page, i assume that "Tom" and "EliYah" are the same person?
When a man writes a good article showing why their own understanding is good according to the Word of YHWH and not showing that others are WRONG, then I will give them my time and my heart and minds consideration.
There's a problem with your statement. If 2 people disagree on something, and 1 writes an article "showing why their own understanding is good", then they have automatically "showed that the other is wrong". That's a FACT, and can't be helped.

From my standpoint, MOST of my posts on the "True Sabbath" forum were not to PROVE the saturday Sabbath correct, nor to PROVE the lunar Sabbath wrong; they only showed that the lunar Sabbath "proofs" were inconclusive.
As far as this article by tom goes, it is nothing more than a fully biased, pathetic attempt at a fleshy man working to remove blessing and understanding that YHWH has established within certain hearts.
Was his article "biased" - YES. But so are all of Arnold's articles on his lunarsabbath websites, and so is your statement above. We are ALL biased to some degree, which makes the search for truth that much more difficult. But i think you may be over-judging EliYan's motives.
Perhaps if he should ever write an article that supports his own understanding (instead up debunking mine) I will give that article a look.
In my opinion, that's what he did. And it didn't necessarily "debunk" yours (I assume from your tone that you're a lunar Sabbath keeper?). It just showed that the Jews around 1st century observed the day that the Romans called Saturn's day. I think i saw where LBDW addressed this aspect a few posts before this one.
Last edited by chuckbaldwin on 15 Jan 2008, 05:59, edited 1 time in total.
Chuck Baldwin

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Postby chuckbaldwin » 15 Jan 2008, 05:43

eriqbenel wrote:Your statement regarding the day beginning at dawn "clearly shows" that your perspective on lunar Sabbaths isn't credible either.
And your statement "clearly shows" that you must believe that if the good ole KJV was good enough for Yahshua and the disciples, it's good enough for you. :lol:
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

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Re: Some simply do not have eyes to see

Postby chuckbaldwin » 15 Jan 2008, 05:55

LittleBoyDrinkingWine wrote:I just finished reading Elyah's atricle...
Hi LBDW,

There were a few things in your post i disagree with, as i'm sure you're aware. But they were all discussed on the "old forum". So lest Kathy make the same scathing accusation against me that she did against EliYah, i'll simply go into "observer mode", except the occasional warding off of Eriq's fiery darts. :lol: I WILL however, keep my eyes open for any NEW arguments or information that comes along. :mrgreen:
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

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Conflict

Postby kathybyers2000 » 15 Jan 2008, 13:47

Shalom Chuck.

Am I biased? Would it help you to understand that I do not read much of what Arnold posts anymore either? I have no desire to give time to those who are so busy trying to prove a point that they may very well be missing out on the true blessings of YHWH, and further removing blessing from others.

When a believer comes out with an article that states "these brothers/sisters are wrong" I do not give it attention. I am not about to say that anybody is wrong in how they keep the sabbath. There was a time when I didn't even keep sabbath. Just as there was a time when I was willing to "fight" for keeping the sabbath by the light in the moon, and also for keeping it on saturday, not sunday (etc...). However, it is wasteful and removes blessing from within. Not only from me, but also from others. It leads my self and others in to the frenzy that is supposed to be fellowship.

If there is a group who believes that I work evil in my life, I simply move on. Why would I want to be yoked up with somebody whose intent is to bring me down by making the way heavy, when the way has been delivered to me in a much lighter load?

Some believers keep the sabbath according to the jewish and others keep it according to the moon. I have kept the sabbath according to both in the past (and according to the christians) and have found blessing and closeness in doing so. If somebody doesn't convert from what they currently understand after hearing my testimony, I am not going to work to destroy their spirit by telling them in a four or five page article how wrong they are. It is a vain attempt at changing what YHWH has put in its perfect place for the time being. His purpose, His plan, His way, His kingdom.

I'm sorry, Chuck if my words offended you. Perhaps you view me as you view others that you "fellowship" with. As a wolf working to remove blessing from your life. But I would hope after reading this statement directed towards you that I am working to restore blessing to your life. You are where you are. YHWH has placed you there. You are loved of Him. I trust YHWH. And I trust that He has you right where He would want you in faith. And my hope for you is that in all things you turn away from the letter that kills and seek to hear Him within you to guide you to what is good and true and pure - the unscathed way of YHWH - it is within each of us (as I'm sure you know) and as long as you profess to be doing the above I will praise YHWH for His glory in you.

All that being said, I pray that nobody else here has issue with what I wrote. I am unbiased in this - I don't care what you believe or practice,if your intent is to "prove" something through the letter of the law, please know that I will not give it credence and will encourage any who are knocked down by this method of madness. It is the way of the hypocrites to bring others to trial accusing them of being wrong in the way that YHWH has shown them.

Shalom to you, Chuck.

Kathy

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Postby eriqbenel » 15 Jan 2008, 13:51

And your statement "clearly shows" that you must believe that if the good ole KJV was good enough for Yahshua and the disciples, it's good enough for you. Laughing



Actually, I don't use the KJV. I was speaking about your extremely bad and WRONG Hebrew language interpretation of Genesis, which NO scholarship agrees with BTW.
Shalom in the name of YHWH,



Eriq

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Postby Torahwoman » 15 Jan 2008, 15:51

Shalom,
"The opinions expressed in Tom's chat room are not necessarily those of Torahwoman or of Yahuah's people as a whole."
Sadly :(

To witness and to agree, neither am i pleased with the tone of the so-called 'study' which has been released as a broadcast in text against lunar reckoning for shabbat.
It screams to most reading it that they should fear the issue and take the 'report' as 'conclusive' 'evidence'.
That spirit of fear leaps onto those who receive it (the fear) and they react accordingly to it --- that is, with hostility, sarcasm, doubt, blindness, ignorance, and a super-charged dose of raging 'lunarphobia' --- as they rush with one mind attempting to aggressively stamp out any traces of the issue that is brought into their midst.
Or the reaction is dished out with a heaping attitude of "ooohhh you poor dear.. let us help you, you have fallen into deception." Hmmmm.... let me see if i can put how i feel about that in the words of a famous 'philosopher':

"AAAAAAAAAACCCCKKKKKK!!!" -- Bill the Cat

i've still been frequenting said chat room daily, or almost daily, ... sometimes finding it a joy to be in for the fellowship alone --- be it sharing in Scripture, sharing in trials and encouraging, ... or simply having fun and laughing. "All is shalom" as long as there is no controversy.... allow me to rephrase.... as long as there is no Scriptural challenge to the norm of thought. One of two basic scenarios takes place: (1.) A christian goes in, speaking against commandment-keeping, and the majority of the room feels confident to answer such comments, since it's not really difficult to prove that commandment-keeping is required....though some often reach or go beyond the point of frustration and seek to have such a dissenter removed from the room, ... and "all is shalom" again. ... or they resort to (1a.) the iggy button. Scenario (2.) Another Torah-keeper enters, ... all is "la-lala shalom" in the room for a while,.... until the general concept of the timing of shabbat is Scripturally challenged. In this case, there's usually more hostility and frustration --- though not all react that way --- hurled at the 'intruder', aaaand they start foaming at the mouth. The 'intruder' or .. hey, i like this one, 'alien'... doesn't even have to be the one who brought the topic of 'lunar shabbat' to their attention, but as soon as it's made known to them that said alien believes in the concept and observes it, that's when Old Yeller starts lookin' at ya --- oops, 'alien' --- "kinda funny-like".... . Sure, some or few might try that iggy button here too.... or the 'alien' could try it, ... but don't go reachin' for the gun, Arliss, 'cause that's your torahfolk in there, and well, your eyes would probably well up too much to shoot straight anyhow. Better to show them your compassion, and quietly take those Old Yeller spirits into captivity to Yahusha haMashyach to be forcefully escorted to a "containment facility" for retraining.

"Hi, my name is Penny, i used to act like Old Yeller."

Well... had to spout some, myself...
May Yahuah have compassion on us all.
Ps. 139:1 "O YaHUaH You have searched me and know me."

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Postby chuckbaldwin » 16 Jan 2008, 03:02

eriqbenel wrote:
And your statement "clearly shows" that you must believe that if the good ole KJV was good enough for Yahshua and the disciples, it's good enough for you. Laughing
Actually, I don't use the KJV. I was speaking about your extremely bad and WRONG Hebrew language interpretation of Genesis, which NO scholarship agrees with BTW.
I was speaking of the extremely bad & WRONG rendering of the KJV, so if you don't use the KJV, then you must be using one that's worded like it, so same difference. Whichever version you're using, you evidently follow its INCORRECT rendering.

As for "NO scholarship agreeing", you're mistaken; there are several versions that render Gen.1 correctly, according to the Hebrew. I guess you obviously haven't read them.
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.


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