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Three days and three nights

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Three days and three nights

Postby yahuahreigns » 24 Oct 2007, 12:23

Go to http://www.lunarsabbath.org/ for a complete study on why the scripture does not teach 3 days and 3 nights in grave/Hell


Link courtesy of Brother Arnold.

(link transferred from post in Calendar Discussion)

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Postby JMSchattke » 17 Nov 2007, 21:06

As I understood it, Yahushwa dies on thursday, and is laid to rest in the tomb. Thursday night began the high Holy Day, and the Jews would do no business; Sabbath came, and again, no business. So the earliest that Magdalene could get the preparations for the grave was Sunday morning, which is what she did, and found the tomb empty.

Now, typically, people claim the year was such that the Passover was Wednesday, which would leave friday for business, between a thursday high holy day and the weekly sabbath. But then, Magdalen would have been going out to prepare the corpse on Friday.
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Postby eriqbenel » 18 Nov 2007, 21:10

JMSchattke wrote:As I understood it, Yahushwa dies on thursday, and is laid to rest in the tomb. Thursday night began the high Holy Day, and the Jews would do no business; Sabbath came, and again, no business. So the earliest that Magdalene could get the preparations for the grave was Sunday morning, which is what she did, and found the tomb empty.

Now, typically, people claim the year was such that the Passover was Wednesday, which would leave friday for business, between a thursday high holy day and the weekly sabbath. But then, Magdalen would have been going out to prepare the corpse on Friday.



Shalom,

Welcome to the forum. If you get a chance to read the article, you will find that the timeline has no connection to our calendar days at all.
Shalom in the name of YHWH,

Eriq

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Postby JMSchattke » 20 Nov 2007, 07:10

I did read his treatise. It's making assumptions.

The only timing that makes three days and three nights:

Night one: after being killed, passover evening
Day one: high holy day in feast
Night two: evening of High holy day
Day two: preparation day
Night three: evening of sabbath day (Jewish reckoning)
Day three: Sabbath Day
Resurrected at evening.

He was already risen when the ladies went Sunday morning, and did not spend the evening after the weekly sabbath in the grave.
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Postby eriqbenel » 20 Nov 2007, 07:38

JMSchattke wrote:I did read his treatise. It's making assumptions.

The only timing that makes three days and three nights:

Night one: after being killed, passover evening
Day one: high holy day in feast
Night two: evening of High holy day
Day two: preparation day
Night three: evening of sabbath day (Jewish reckoning)
Day three: Sabbath Day
Resurrected at evening.

He was already risen when the ladies went Sunday morning, and did not spend the evening after the weekly sabbath in the grave.



Shalom,

What assumptions is it making? Why are you using a 3 days and 3 nights timeline in association with the death and ressurection of Messiah? This timeline is not three days and three nights, neither can it be associated with the days of the Gregorian calendar week.
Shalom in the name of YHWH,



Eriq

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Postby JMSchattke » 21 Nov 2007, 01:01

eriqbenel wrote:What assumptions is it making? Why are you using a 3 days and 3 nights timeline in association with the death and ressurection of Messiah?
Because the messiah said so:
Joh 2:18 And the Yehuḏim answered and said to Him, "What sign do You show to us, since You are doing these?"
Joh 2:19 יהושע answered and said to them, "Destroy this Dwelling Place, and in three days I shall raise it."
Joh 2:20 Then the Yehuḏim said, "It took forty-six years to build this Dwelling Place, and You are going to raise it in three days?"
Joh 2:21 But He spoke about the Dwelling Place of His body.

Mat 12:39 But He answering, said to them, "A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Yonah.
Mat 12:40 "For as Yonah was three days and three nights in the stomach of the great fish, so shall the Son of Aḏam be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Mar 8:31 And He began to teach them that the Son of Aḏam has to suffer much, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days to rise again.

This timeline is not three days and three nights,
Then you make the messiah a liar?
neither can it be associated with the days of the Gregorian calendar week.
Ah, this is because you figure somehow that there is only one sabbath in the account, the 15th of Nissan?
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 21 Nov 2007, 04:49

Greetings Mr. Schattke. I just wanted you to know that i stand with you on this issue. Having discussed it at length with these folks on the other forum, i thought i would just sit back and see what additional insights you might offer.

I do have a concern about the following quote, since it conflicts with your timeline in a later post.
JMSchattke wrote:As I understood it, Yahushwa dies on thursday, and is laid to rest in the tomb. Thursday night began the high Holy Day, and the Jews would do no business; Sabbath came, and again, no business. So the earliest that Magdalene could get the preparations for the grave was Sunday morning, which is what she did, and found the tomb empty.

Now, typically, people claim the year was such that the Passover was Wednesday, which would leave friday for business, between a thursday high holy day and the weekly sabbath. But then, Magdalen would have been going out to prepare the corpse on Friday.
I can accept either the 4th-day (wed) OR 5th-day (thu) view of the crucifixion with some reservations, and your last sentence makes sense. But maybe it took longer than expected for them to buy AND prepare the spices, AND get to the tomb long enough before Sabbath to do a complete job. Your conflicting timeline follows:
The only timing that makes three days and three nights:

Night one: after being killed, passover evening
Day one: high holy day in feast
Night two: evening of High holy day
Day two: preparation day
Night three: evening of sabbath day (Jewish reckoning)
Day three: Sabbath Day
Resurrected at evening.
The above timeline includes (1) the High holyday (thu), (2) the preparation day (fri), and (3) the weekly Sabbath (sat), whereas your 1st quote above doesn't put a day between the High day and the weekly Sabbath.

Would you mind clarifying?
Chuck Baldwin
By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

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Postby eriqbenel » 21 Nov 2007, 07:59

JMSchattke wrote:
eriqbenel wrote:What assumptions is it making? Why are you using a 3 days and 3 nights timeline in association with the death and ressurection of Messiah?
Because the messiah said so:
Joh 2:18 And the Yehuḏim answered and said to Him, "What sign do You show to us, since You are doing these?"
Joh 2:19 יהושע answered and said to them, "Destroy this Dwelling Place, and in three days I shall raise it."
Joh 2:20 Then the Yehuḏim said, "It took forty-six years to build this Dwelling Place, and You are going to raise it in three days?"
Joh 2:21 But He spoke about the Dwelling Place of His body.

Mat 12:39 But He answering, said to them, "A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Yonah.
Mat 12:40 "For as Yonah was three days and three nights in the stomach of the great fish, so shall the Son of Aḏam be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Mar 8:31 And He began to teach them that the Son of Aḏam has to suffer much, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days to rise again.

This timeline is not three days and three nights,
Then you make the messiah a liar?
neither can it be associated with the days of the Gregorian calendar week.
Ah, this is because you figure somehow that there is only one sabbath in the account, the 15th of Nissan?



Shalom,

I will try and give a more thorough response at a later time. I don't ahve the time to do it right now. But suffice it to say that you have put Scriptures together above that do not belong together. The Scriptures referring to the "sign of Jonah" do NOT refer to the death and ressurection. And no one can prove it does. That is an assumption, and a faulty one.

Therefore, since Messiah NEVER mentioned a 3 days and 3 nights timeline for the death and ressurection, I do not make Him a liar at all.

Finally, you are correct there IS absolutely, positively, 100% - conclusively, only ONE Sabbath in the account. ANd I can absolutely, positively, 100%, conclusively prove it to anybody willing to take a look (except Chuck).

Meanwhile, if you care to. You can find the position I agree with at http://ministersnewcovenant.org Click on "Media gallery", then "books", then click on "Sign of Jonah". You can read the book online or print, etc..

At least you will have a thorough knowledge of my position.

Shalom
Shalom in the name of YHWH,



Eriq

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Postby Watchman555 » 21 Nov 2007, 18:25

Shalom,

By Yahusha's Own Words and the witness Scripture confirms that He could not have spent three days and three nights in the grave

Matt. 16:20-21:
20 Then He warned His taught ones that they should say to no one that He is Yahusha the Messiah. 21 From that time Yahusha began to show to His taught ones that it was necessary for Him to 1. go to Yerushalayim, and 2. to suffer much from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and 3. be killed, and 4. to be raised again the third day.

At this time I will not post any other Scripture that confirms this Scripture above, but we can go through them all if we need to.

Luke 24:18-21:
18 And the one whose name was Qleophas answering, said to Him, "Are You the lone visitor in Yerushalayim who does not know what took place in it these days? 19 And He said to them, "What? And they said to Him, "Concerning Yahusha of Natsareth, who was a Prophet mighty in deed and word before Elohim and all the people, 20 and how the 2. chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to be condemned to death, and 3. impaled Him. 21 "We, however, were expecting that it was He who was going to redeem Yisra'el. But besides all this, 4. today is the third day since these matters took place. At this point they were IN the third day. How could He be in the grave for the third day and yet be risen the third day? See the point?

With the aforementioned Scriptures, it is impossible for Yahusha to have spent three days and three nights in the grave when the three day count that Yahusha was referring to started from the time He went to Yerusalem and the third day was first day morning at sunrise; that was not the end of the third day, but was the beginning of the third day daylight period. Even without taking into consideration when the day begins, it is still an impossibility for Him to be in the grave three days and three nights.

Also, even if you don't consider going to Yerusalem in the count to the third day the sufferings and impalement itself was counted in the three days.

~Greg

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Postby chuckbaldwin » 22 Nov 2007, 08:39

Watchman555 wrote:By Yahusha's Own Words and the witness Scripture confirms that He could not have spent three days and three nights in the grave

Matt. 16:20-21:
20 Then He warned His taught ones that they should say to no one that He is Yahusha the Messiah. 21 From that time Yahusha began to show to His taught ones that it was necessary for Him to 1. go to Yerushalayim, and 2. to suffer much from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and 3. be killed, and 4. to be raised again the third day.
I don't see how the above disproves it:
If Yahshua was crucified on 4th-day (wed), then...
5th-day (thu) was the 1st day after the crucifixion,
6th-day (fri) was the 2nd day,
7th-day (Sab) was the 3rd day, and He resurrected and the end of the 3rd day, as required.
Luke 24:21:
21 “... today is the third day since these matters took place."
At this point they were IN the third day. How could He be in the grave for the third day and yet be risen the third day? See the point?
There are 2 possibilities:

1. "These matters" included the sealing of the tomb & setting the watch on the 15th, making the 18th the 3rd day since everything was completed. Note that not every detail is given in every account, so the fact that the "sealing & setting" were mentioned in Matthew and not in Luke doesn't prove that they weren't included in "these matters".

2. A 5th-day crucifixion should eliminate any objection to #1, because the 3rd day since 5th-day is 8th/1st-day, which is the day they were speaking.

p.s. I don't know what the "Mr. Green" emoticon represents, but since it's my favorite color, and has a big grin, i might as well use it. :mrgreen:

p.p.s. For some reason, my post was dated Thu Nov 22 at 3:39am, but it is just now Wed Nov 21 at 8:42pm. What's going on? Note at bottom of page says "All times are GMT - 5 hours".
Chuck Baldwin

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Postby eriqbenel » 22 Nov 2007, 21:31

There are 2 possibilities:

1. "These matters" included the sealing of the tomb & setting the watch on the 15th, making the 18th the 3rd day since everything was completed. Note that not every detail is given in every account, so the fact that the "sealing & setting" were mentioned in Matthew and not in Luke doesn't prove that they weren't included in "these matters".

2. A 5th-day crucifixion should eliminate any objection to #1, because the 3rd day since 5th-day is 8th/1st-day, which is the day they were speaking.


These are NOT possibilities at all.

The Scripture SPECIFICALLY STATES what "these matters" incluide. I don't know why you insist on "redefining" the text Well, yes I do! Because if you don't, your doctrine falls to pieces.

24:19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before Elohim and all the people:
24:20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
24:21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.


What could be more clear? THESE MATTERS, according to the text, are in verse 20! So it is NOT POSSIBLE that this begins any "sealing/tomb/watch"?

A "SIXTH DAY" crucifixion, which was the 14th day of the month, eliminates any objection, because it proves that the 16th day was the "first" day, which is the day the conversation in Luke took place.

You can SAY He was crucified on whatever day you want, but you have to back it up with Scripture:

I Cor
15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that the Messiah died for our sins according to the scriptures;
15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures



Those of you who believe that Messiah was "crucified" on Wednesday, or Thursday, and rose on Saturday or Sunday, please present your Scriptures!
Shalom in the name of YHWH,



Eriq

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Postby JMSchattke » 22 Nov 2007, 21:38

eriqbenel wrote:Finally, you are correct there IS absolutely, positively, 100% - conclusively, only ONE Sabbath in the account. ANd I can absolutely, positively, 100%, conclusively prove it to anybody willing to take a look (except Chuck).


That would certainly be welcome.

But how you get one sabbath to have the disciples saying the Luke thing on the third day "After these things took place" and have that also agree with Matthew "at dawn on the first day" - that is, the first day after the sabbath - will be interesting. By all means, have a go at it. Because if you cannot, then you are absolutely conclusively proving the Lunar Sabbath is wrong, not followed by the taught ones of the Messiah.
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 23 Nov 2007, 06:47

eriqbenel wrote:
There are 2 possibilities:

1. "These matters" included the sealing of the tomb & setting the watch on the 15th, making the 18th the 3rd day since everything was completed. Note that not every detail is given in every account, so the fact that the "sealing & setting" were mentioned in Matthew and not in Luke doesn't prove that they weren't included in "these matters".

2. A 5th-day crucifixion should eliminate any objection to #1, because the 3rd day since 5th-day is 8th/1st-day, which is the day they were speaking.
The Scripture SPECIFICALLY STATES what "these matters" incluide. I don't know why you insist on "redefining" the text Well, yes I do! Because if you don't, your doctrine falls to pieces.
Eric, since you like picking on me so much, i give you the same admonition i gave Arnold: READ WHAT I SAY BEFORE YOU TRY TO REFUTE IT! (see above in red).

I didn't "redefine" anything - the Scripture SPECIFICALLY STATES what "these matters" include: the trial & crucifixion in ALL the gospels, and the "setting & sealing" in Matthew - "here a little & there a little".

I don't know why you insist in "redefining" the 3 days & 3 nights as being different from what Jonah called them; well, yes I do! Because if you don't, your doctrine falls to pieces. (Sorry, i couldn't help using 1 of Arnold's tactics.)

A "SIXTH DAY" crucifixion, which was the 14th day of the month, eliminates any objection, because it proves that the 16th day was the "first" day, which is the day the conversation in Luke took place.
You didn't actually disprove my 2nd possibility, you only "countered" with an alternate explanation, which REALLY IS IMPOSSIBLE, because the 3rd day since the 14th would be the 17th.
I Cor
15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that the Messiah died for our sins according to the scriptures;
15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures
I'm glad you quoted that, because the ONLY Scripture that records a "typological" 3-day entombment is the story of Jonah.
Those of you who believe that Messiah was "crucified" on Wednesday, or Thursday, and rose on Saturday or Sunday, please present your Scriptures!
Already done. :mrgreen:
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

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Postby eriqbenel » 23 Nov 2007, 09:06

Chuck,

I didn't "redefine" anything - the Scripture SPECIFICALLY STATES what "these matters" include: the trial & crucifixion in ALL the gospels, and the "setting & sealing" in Matthew - "here a little & there a little".

What in the world are you talking about???!!!

There is NO account of Messiah appearing to men on the road to Ammeas in Matthew!!! Much less a version that includes "setting & sealing". I don't know how you thought you could get away with that.

ALSO, you know very well that what you are trying to do is BEGIN the count with the "setting & sealing", which is the ONLY way your timeline works with that passage.

There is no "here a little & there a little". The Scripture is clear in what it says and there is NO OTHER VERSION IN ANY OTHER GOSPEL. Unbelievable!

--------------------------------

I don't know why you insist in "redefining" the 3 days & 3 nights as being different from what Jonah called them; well, yes I do! Because if you don't, your doctrine falls to pieces. (Sorry, i couldn't help using 1 of Arnold's tactics.)


Can I send you anything from planet Earth? The debate is not about what JONAH called 3 days and 3 nights. The debate is about what MESSIAH meant by 3 days and 3 nights...

I'm glad you quoted that, because the ONLY Scripture that records a "typological" 3-day entombment is the story of Jonah.

WRONG!!!!!!!!!!

The "typology" Scriptures surrounding Messiah's death and ressurection are the ones about PASSOVER, UNLEAVENED BREAD, WAVE SHEAF, etc...
Shalom in the name of YHWH,



Eriq

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Postby chuckbaldwin » 23 Nov 2007, 13:08

eriqbenel wrote:There is NO account of Messiah appearing to men on the road to Ammeas in Matthew!!! Much less a version that includes "setting & sealing".
Eric, i know very well that you know what i was talking about, and you just pretend not to, so i'm not going to baby you by explaining it again. You'll just have to DEAL WITH IT.
ALSO, you know very well that what you are trying to do is BEGIN the count with the "setting & sealing", which is the ONLY way your timeline works with that passage.
Exactly, at least you understood THAT part.
The debate is not about what JONAH called 3 days and 3 nights. The debate is about what MESSIAH meant by 3 days and 3 nights...
The 1st part is WRONG, but the 2nd part is RIGHT. The Messiah refered us to Jonah, so it only makes common sense to go to Jonah for the explanation ("AS Jonah was ..., SO shall the Son of Man be ..."). It's UNBELIEVEABLE that Yahshua drew a precise parallel that all you guys try to deny. He wouldn't have even mentioned Jonah if Jonah had nothing to do with it.
Chuck Baldwin

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