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When Does the Day Begin?

For the open discussion of all calendar related issues.

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BrotherArnold
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Postby BrotherArnold » 16 Nov 2007, 03:43

Torahwoman wrote:Shalom, and laila tov, from tw as well.... see you TOMORROW ...? :D ;)


i would like to share that, not only have i begun to observe the lunar reckoning, but am also leaning toward the sunrise-to-sunrise idea.


tw: Lunar Module. Some assembly required.



RESPONSE; Shalom Sister Torahwoman You made a wise decision in observing lunar Sabbaths but I would admonish you to take a good look at the day issue before going there. check here first http://lunarsabbath.info/_wsn/page17.html
Even if you disagree we can still fellowship or sistership

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...

Brother Arnold
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Postby Torahwoman » 16 Nov 2007, 14:10

Shalom, Brother Arnold, and all...

thank you for your kindness, and sharing your views. :D
Personally, i have been looking into the day-beginning issue for quite some time now, as well as the lunar issue.
When i first heard about the lunar issue, i was emphatically against it -- but in arrogance, as i refused to even look at it. That was probably a couple years or so past. When the topic came around again, this time being a few months before Feast, i still reacted negatively to it, even though two people i had come to know personally and respect highly were the vessels He was using to bring it to my attention again. YaHUaH was telling me, "you know these people, you know they obey Me and trust Me. I have not chosen people you don't know to share this with you, or you most likely still would not have listened to them. The ones I chose to tell you this time, I knew you would be more receptive to, as you have seen with your own eyes and heard with your own ears how they love Me, they obey Me, and they trust Me. You spent time with them, in their home, on a day-to-day basis, long enough to see their walk with Me. You needed to see for yourself that I do not take this topic lightly, and so I used them because of the credibility I have given them in your eyes and the eyes of others. I put it in your heart now, daughter, to search this matter out and see for yourself the Truth, without letting past biases cloud your discernment. If you continue to love Me, obey Me, and trust Me, you will do this and have rest in your being -- whichever way it turns out."
So, the task began -- fearfully at the very beginning, because it was not a topic i wanted to have as a challenge,... then gradually i let go as i prayed for His peace about it. What did i have to truly fear? (As you wonderfully point out, Brother Arnold -- truth has no fear of open debate. :D ) Nothing. And perfect love casts out fear. It was fear of the unknown, that i might have been wrong for so many years -- around 40 years.
Well, YaHUaH brought me out of a 'wilderness', too, when i hit 40 -- though i had no idea at the time of all what that wilderness consisted. But i did have a feeling that it was the end of certain wanderings -- when maybe i should have been 'wondering'... ;)
i know this thread is on the day-beginning issue, and sorry for the slight delay, but i wanted to give a little background on why i am also considering the sunrise being the beginning... as that was another topic i wanted to avoid. For years, i had been as obnoxious and arrogant against those who dismissed what i thought was the proper concept of a Shabbat, thinking i knew so much when in reality YaHUaH showed me how i knew SO LITTLE. Praise YaHUaH for His compassion, and i pray He continues to teach me in His lovingkindness, as He uses you and all the Torah brothers and sisters to bring me ever closer to Him in my walk.
So, in deed and in word, i must continue to search this issue of when the day begins, and i pray that He will remove any clouds that are not of Him.
i pray the same for us all. Praise His Great and Set-apart Name -- YaHUaH !

thank you for your patience. :D

love to you all,
in YaHUaH and YaHUsha,

seeking to always be... a Torah woman.
Ps. 139:1 "O YaHUaH You have searched me and know me."

chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 17 Nov 2007, 06:28

Moved from "30 Day Months Myth" thread:
chosen wrote:chuck, you said,
"and it became evening, and it became morning, day 1"
That does not prove dawn to dawn reconning for a day. In fact, I think it proves evening to evening for a day.
Chosen,

That's what happens when you leave out the most important event - YHWH's activity for that day. Again, here's the sequence for each day, in list format:

1. "And Elohim said ...", [this is the 1st event of each day]
2. Whatever Elohim said came to be, i.e. His creative work for that day,
3. It became evening, [YHWH's work for the day is now complete]
4. Night obviously came next, though not mentioned,
5. It became morning (boqer/dawn), thus completing day 1,2,3, etc.

That should make it clear.
Chuck Baldwin
By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

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Postby BrotherArnold » 18 Nov 2007, 00:06

Why could not there be 12hrs of morning/light, just as there was 12hrs of evening/darkness?

Why can't evening and the morning belong to the same day instead of morning belonging to the next day?

And even if you were right, would not it be the exact oppsite on the other side of the earth? i.e. evening then morning on one side and morning then evening on the other? From what prespective of the earth was the aurthor writing?


Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 19 Nov 2007, 06:58

BrotherArnold wrote:Why could not there be 12hrs of morning/light, just as there was 12hrs of evening/darkness?
Because "even" is "ereb" meaning "dusk" the brief period of about 1 hour between "day" and "night". And similarly, "morning" is "boqer" meaning "dawn" the brief period of about 1 hour between "night" and "day".
Why can't evening and the morning belong to the same day instead of morning belonging to the next day?
They can as far as i know, because "boqer" (morning) ends at sunrise when the new day starts. (Still referring to the Creation days, not the days as they are reckoned now.)
And even if you were right, would not it be the exact oppsite on the other side of the earth? i.e. evening then morning on one side and morning then evening on the other? From what prespective of the earth was the aurthor writing?
When the author described an event, he certainly wasn't concerned about what was happening on the "other side of the earth". His perspective was at some definite point on the earth, and that perspective had to remain constant throughout Gen.1; otherwise none of it has any meaning at all. I believe it was probably where Jerusalem would eventually be, but that's not important, as long as it remained the same. :mrgreen: [/quote]
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

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John 20

Postby kathybyers2000 » 19 Nov 2007, 19:20

Greetings all.

Hope you are all doing well on this fine day that YHWH has made.

Would anybody like to discuss John chapter 20 where the ladies go early the first of the week to the sepulchre and later in that chapter it is noted that in the evening (still the first of the week) he came to his disciples.

This chapter, along with the day of atonement instruction, are what has shown my heart a new understanding regarding rendering time.

Shalom,

Kathy

BrotherArnold
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Re: John 20

Postby BrotherArnold » 20 Nov 2007, 04:52

kathybyers2000 wrote:Greetings all.

Hope you are all doing well on this fine day that YHWH has made.

Would anybody like to discuss John chapter 20 where the ladies go early the first of the week to the sepulchre and later in that chapter it is noted that in the evening (still the first of the week) he came to his disciples.

This chapter, along with the day of atonement instruction, are what has shown my heart a new understanding regarding rendering time.

Shalom,

Kathy



Shalom Sister Kathy,

I will spend a little time at it but not too much because I am getting behind on my responses but believe I can give a answer to it but woulld like to see what kind of an answer there is for some of my questions such as the following one.

"Exhibit C"

It Is "Impossible" To Have A 3rd Day Resurrection if you believe the sunrise theory and the Scripture clearly teaches He must rise the third day.

Here is something to consider for those who believe the day begins at sunrise or only begins in the morning and consists only of 12 hours. We agree that one definition (the narrow) of the word "Day" consists of only 12 hours, but when this same word is studied in different contexts in the totality of Scripture we see it can have several meanings.

Our Messiah died on the 14th of Aviv, the same day the Passover lambs had been slaughtered for centuries prior to his death. For those who reckon the day from sunrise to sunrise, the Messiah died on the 14th of Aviv and then the evening of the 14th came afterwards, with the weekly Sabbath beginning the morning of the 15th at sunrise. This poses a serious problem when it comes to the resurrection day of the Messiah. If the 1st day of the week will not begin until the sunrise of the 16th of Aviv, and then the Messiah would have resurrected BEFORE sunrise on the SECOND day, instead of the 3rd day.

All the gospel accounts agree that when the women came to the tomb it was very early in the morning, and the gospel according to John (20th chapter) tells us this occurred "While it was yet dark" (KJV). How can it be then that the Messiah rose the 3RD DAY ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES if He rose before the 3rd day began????

The day of his death (14th) would be day one, and the day of the Sabbath (15th) would be day two, and day three would not begin until sunrise of the 16th for the sunrise to sunrise proponents. This means it is an impossibility for this theology to align its understanding with what the Bible teaches about the third day resurrection predicted by the Messiah himself over 10 times and corroborated by the Apostle Shaul in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

This is not to mention that this teaching also has the Messiah rising on the Sabbath, rather than the 1st day of the week; a teaching that shows similarity with 72 hour proponents. The Scriptures make it very clear that the sheaf of first-fruits (barley) was to be waved on the MORROW AFTER THE SABBATH (Lev. 23:10-16), and NOT on the Sabbath itself. A sunrise to sunrise view has our Messiah resurrected on the Sabbath (2nd day) instead of the morrow after the Sabbath (3rd day) as the Scripture teaches.

In closing, we must also mention that for those espousing a 12 hour Sabbath, one which begins at morning and ends at dusk, has the Messiah rising on a NON-DAY, during the night. This teaching has the Messiah not rising on the Sabbath OR the first day of the week (the 3rd day, 16th), but on what they consider to not be a day at all. The 12 noon people have the same problems.

The Scriptures will all harmonize if we can only see that the word "Day" in Scripture has a broader definition, and not only one narrow definition of the daylight hours. With an evening to evening day, which the Bible clearly teaches (Gen. 1:5;Ex. 12:17; Lev. 23:32) the Messiah can be impaled on the 14th, rest on the Sabbath for the entire 15th day, and as the next day begins (the evening of the 16th) he resurrects (ready to work) before morning, but yet still on the 3rd day " according to the Scriptures (1 Cor. 15:1-4) " on the morrow after the Sabbath (Lev. 23:10-16).

PS. Some may object to our line of reasoning by saying that the Messiah resurrected the split second the daylight hours began on the 16th, but this is unsound for the following reason(s). All four gospel accounts agree that the women came to the tomb very early in the morning, with John's gospel elaborating a bit further that this was while it was yet dark, and another says, as it began to dawn toward the 1st day of the week. All gospel accounts show that the women were amazed that he was not there, and as the angelic messenger(s) proclaimed "HE IS NOT HERE, HE HAS RISEN. This proves beyond doubt that our Messiah had already risen prior to the daylight hours, but yet, as noted above, this was still on the 3rd day according to the evening to evening view, but the 2nd day according to the sunrise or 12 noon view.

We see from the above that the sunrise proponents can NOT have a third day resurrection and this alone kills the sunrise doctrine.
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

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Postby BrotherArnold » 20 Nov 2007, 08:16

Arnold> And even if you were right, would not it be the exact oppsite on the other side of the earth? i.e. evening then morning on one side and morning then evening on the other? From what prespective of the earth was the aurthor writing?"

Chuck> When the author described an event, he certainly wasn't concerned about what was happening on the "other side of the earth". His perspective was at some definite point on the earth, and that perspective had to remain constant throughout Gen.1; otherwise none of it has any meaning at all. I believe it was probably where Jerusalem would eventually be, but that's not important, as long as it remained the same. :mrgreen: [/quote][/quote]


Response Arnold?>; I disagree about not being concerned, But my question that you keep avoiding is, WHICH SIDE OF THE EARTH WAS HE NOT CONCERNED WITH? i.e. How can you conclusively prove which side.

You have not proven what position the sun and moon was in when they popped on and began to luminate. i.e. the sun could have been in a SUNSET position when it popped on (at evening) and YHWH saw it was good and twisted it away in a circle.

Another possibility is the sun and moon could have been opsite one another, i.e. full moon light on one side of the earth and sun on the other, evening then morning depending on which side He was not concerned with. He could have rearranged them on day 4 to make them beacon the apointments what ever way He saw fit etc.

I have several possibilities but that is not my point, my point is HOW CAN YOU CONCLUSIVELY PROVE THEY RECONED TIME FROM THE MORNING SIDE OF THE EARTH AND NOT THE EVENING SIDE?


How can you prove what position the sun was in when it came on?

It occurred to me that the sun NEVER sets when looking at it from a broad perspective and at the same time is ALWAYS setting from the same broad perspective. i.e. the sun is setting somewhere 24hrs a day and from a local perspective it is different. The sun is also raising somewhere 24hrs a day, also the sun is continually RISING and SETTING at the exact SAME time 24hrs a day each and EVERY day yet it never sets/stops except from a local perspective. i.e. your sunrise is someone’s else’s sunset.

Brother Arnold
Last edited by BrotherArnold on 19 Feb 2008, 03:23, edited 1 time in total.
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

kathybyers2000
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Perhaps

Postby kathybyers2000 » 20 Nov 2007, 11:57

Thanks for your input Arnold.

What the spirit of YHWH has shown me through the word has perfect timing and I am happy to share that with anybody who is searching. All one must do is ask :)

Shalom,

Kathy

chuckbaldwin
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Re: John 20

Postby chuckbaldwin » 21 Nov 2007, 08:37

BrotherArnold wrote:It Is "Impossible" To Have A 3rd Day Resurrection if you believe the sunrise theory and the Scripture clearly teaches He must rise the third day.
Arnold, it helps, when trying to refute someone's belief, to actually understand what "they believe that you're trying to refute.

This isn't my current understanding; i\'m using the belief of "others" to illustrate the problem. In this case, your reference to "sunrise" slants it in your favor. What "they actually believe is that the day starts at "cawn" or "first light", which is about an hour BEFORE "sunrise". With that in mind, here's "their" timetable:

1. Yahshua dies at 3pm on 6th-day (Abib 14), and buried before dawn.
This is the "1st day.
2. The "sabbath" (in this case, both weekly AND annual) passes on 7th-day (Abib 15).
This is the "2nd day".
3. The resurrection occurs immediately at dawn on 1st-day (Abib 16).
This is the "3rd day".
4. The women arrive a few minutes after that, still dawn - before sunrise, while it is still [semi-]dark.

So while your contention, AS STATED, is correct, it is stated incorrectly, and so it IS possible to have a 3rd day resurrection at dawn, as opposed to "sunrise". :mrgreen:
Chuck Baldwin

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Postby chuckbaldwin » 21 Nov 2007, 09:05

BrotherArnold wrote:Chuck> When the author described an event, he certainly wasn't concerned about what was happening on the "other side of the earth". His perspective was at some definite point on the earth, and that perspective had to remain constant throughout Gen.1; otherwise none of it has any meaning at all. I believe it was probably where Jerusalem would eventually be, but that's not important, as long as it remained the same.

Response Arnold?>; I disagree about not being concerned, But my question that you keep avoiding is, WHICH SIDE OF THE EARTH WAS HE NOT CONCERNED WITH? i.e. How can you conclusively prove which side.
He was not concerned with the opposite side of the earth from His fixed point of reference.
You have not proven what position the sun and moon was in when they popped on and began to luminate. i.e. the sun could have been in a SUNSET position when it popped on (at evening) and YHWH saw it was good and twisted it away in a circle.
HUH????????????????? If i have to prove that, from the perspective of a person standing at a fixed point on the earth, the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, then i'm afraid you're beyond help.
Another possibility is the sun and moon could have been onsite [??????] one another, i.e. full moon light on one side of the earth and sun on the other, evening then morning depending on which side He was not concerned with. He could have rearranged them on day 4 to make them beacon the apointments what ever way He saw fit etc.
Now you're injecting the "moon" into a discussion that has nothing to do with the moon. It seems that you're deliberately trying to cause confusion! :x
I have several possibilities but that is not my point, my point is HOW CAN YOU CONCLUSIVELY PROVE THEY RECONED TIME FROM THE MORNING SIDE OF THE EARTH AND NOT THE EVENING SIDE?
Good grief!!!! When "evening" came (AFTER the day's work), it was at the point on earth where you could see the sun setting. And then when "morning" came, it was at the same place on earth, 12 hours later. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out!!!
How can you prove what position the sun was in when it came on?
It doesn't matter; it could have been 9am, noon, 3pm, or 5:59pm. What DOES matter is that when the next dawn arrived, that completed Day 1. Then days 2-6 all follow the identical pattern of:
1. Dawn ending the previous day, then
2. Elohim said - His day's work done, then
3. Evening came (followed of course by night), then
4. Dawn came, ending that day and starting the next.
It occurred to me that the sun NEVER sets when looking at it from a broad perspective and at the same time is ALWAYS setting from the same broad perspective. i.e. the sun is setting somewhere 24hrs a day and from a local perspective it is different. The sun is also raising somewhere 24hrs a day, also the sun is continually RISING and SETTING at the exact SAME time 24hrs a day each and EVERY day yet it never sets/stops except from a local perspective. i.e. your sunrise is someone’s else’s sunset.
More irrelevent confusion!!!
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

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Re: John 20

Postby BrotherArnold » 21 Nov 2007, 20:44

chuckbaldwin wrote:
BrotherArnold wrote:It Is "Impossible" To Have A 3rd Day Resurrection if you believe the sunrise theory and the Scripture clearly teaches He must rise the third day.[/quote

]Arnold, it helps, when trying to refute someone's belief, to actually understand what "they believe that you're trying to refute.

This isn't my current understanding; i\'m using the belief of "others" to illustrate the problem. In this case, your reference to "sunrise" slants it in your favor. What "they actually believe is that the day starts at "dawn" or "first light", which is about an hour BEFORE "sunrise". With that in mind, here's "their" timetable:

1. Yahshua dies at 3pm on 6th-day (Abib 14), and buried before dawn.
This is the "1st day.
2. The "sabbath" (in this case, both weekly AND annual) passes on 7th-day (Abib 15).
This is the “2nd day.
3. The resurrection occurs immediately at dawn on 1st-day (Abib 16).
This is the “3rd day.
4. The women arrive a few minutes after that, still dawn - before sunrise, while it is still [semi-]dark.

So while your contention, AS STATED, is correct, it is stated incorrectly, and so it IS possible to have a 3rd day resurrection at dawn, as opposed to "sunrise". :mrgreen:




RESPONSE; The scriptures read as if He was already risen before dawn and one even says while it was still dark and the only way I can see to harmonize this Gospel with the others is the 24hr day began at evening.


I believe it is a streachhhh to try to make it say He was NOT risen before dawn, light, or sunrise.
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

BrotherArnold
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Postby BrotherArnold » 21 Nov 2007, 21:05

chuckbaldwin wrote:
BrotherArnold wrote:Chuck> When the author described an event, he certainly wasn't concerned about what was happening on the "other side of the earth". His perspective was at some definite point on the earth, and that perspective had to remain constant throughout Gen.1; otherwise none of it has any meaning at all. I believe it was probably where Jerusalem would eventually be, but that's not important, as long as it remained the same.

Response Arnold?>; I disagree about not being concerned, But my question that you keep avoiding is, WHICH SIDE OF THE EARTH WAS HE NOT CONCERNED WITH? i.e. How can you conclusively prove which side.
He was not concerned with the opposite side of the earth from His fixed point of reference.
You have not proven what position the sun and moon was in when they popped on and began to luminate. i.e. the sun could have been in a SUNSET position when it popped on (at evening) and YHWH saw it was good and twisted it away in a circle.
HUH????????????????? If i have to prove that, from the perspective of a person standing at a fixed point on the earth, the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, then i'm afraid you're beyond help.
Another possibility is the sun and moon could have been onsite [??????] one another, i.e. full moon light on one side of the earth and sun on the other, evening then morning depending on which side He was not concerned with. He could have rearranged them on day 4 to make them beacon the apointments what ever way He saw fit etc.
Now you're injecting the "moon" into a discussion that has nothing to do with the moon. It seems that you're deliberately trying to cause confusion! :x
I have several possibilities but that is not my point, my point is HOW CAN YOU CONCLUSIVELY PROVE THEY RECONED TIME FROM THE MORNING SIDE OF THE EARTH AND NOT THE EVENING SIDE?
Good grief!!!! When "evening" came (AFTER the day's work), it was at the point on earth where you could see the sun setting. And then when "morning" came, it was at the same place on earth, 12 hours later. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out!!!
How can you prove what position the sun was in when it came on?
It doesn't matter; it could have been 9am, noon, 3pm, or 5:59pm. What DOES matter is that when the next dawn arrived, that completed Day 1. Then days 2-6 all follow the identical pattern of:
1. Dawn ending the previous day, then
2. Elohim said - His day's work done, then
3. Evening came (followed of course by night), then
4. Dawn came, ending that day and starting the next.
It occurred to me that the sun NEVER sets when looking at it from a broad perspective and at the same time is ALWAYS setting from the same broad perspective. i.e. the sun is setting somewhere 24hrs a day and from a local perspective it is different. The sun is also raising somewhere 24hrs a day, also the sun is continually RISING and SETTING at the exact SAME time 24hrs a day each and EVERY day yet it never sets/stops except from a local perspective. i.e. your sunrise is someone’s else’s sunset.
More irrelevent confusion!!!




RESPONSE;


We can settle this discussion with the Historical evidence of eye witness as to how it was done during the time the Temple was still standing. If there is no Historical evidence of anyone Holy or unholy, keeping something, that means it is a new doctrine or there would be record of the Priest or someone keeping it. I can give many that fits my understanding of scripture but haven’t seen one conclusive piece of evidence for the morning to morning. Here is one conclusive one that can not be intelligent argued against because the way it is spelled out/worded.

Josephus writes in

WARS OF THE JEWS book 4 CHAPTER 9 (582)
(582) and the last was erected above the top of the Pastophoria, where one of the priests stood of course, and gave a signal beforehand, with a trumpet, at the "Beginning" of every seventh day, in the "Evening twilight, as also at the "Evening" when the "Day was finished, as giving notice to the people when they were to "Leave off work, and when they were to go to "Work again.

Will await yours.

Please don't try to discret my proof but present yours if you have one.
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

chuckbaldwin
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Re: John 20

Postby chuckbaldwin » 22 Nov 2007, 08:54

RESPONSE; The scriptures read as if He was already risen before dawn and one even says while it was still dark and the only way I can see to harmonize this Gospel with the others is the 24hr day began at evening.
Arnold, the above shows that you didn't actually read what i said. That's what i was talking about when i said it helps to understand what others actually say or believe, before you start trying to refute it.

I covered both of your objections, and ask WHAT Scripture says He arose BEFORE dawn. And in case you didn't understand the question i'll rephrase - WHAT Scripture gives the EXACT time of His resurrection?

(I actually believe that He arose at the end of the Sabbath, just at or before sunset, but in this particular subtopic, we're discussing "their" belief, not mine.) :mrgreen:
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 22 Nov 2007, 09:10

BrotherArnold wrote:We can settle this discussion with the Historical evidence of eye witness as to how it was done during the time the Temple was still standing.
No Arnold, we can't settle it that way, because now you're referring to a completely different time in history.


What we WERE discussing was the "creation Days", NOT the Temple days

Josephus writes in WARS OF THE JEWS book 4 CHAPTER 9 (582)
(582) and the last was erected above the top of the Pastophoria, where one of the priests stood of course, and gave a signal beforehand, with a trumpet, at the "Beginning" of every seventh day, in the "Evening twilight, as also at the "Evening" when the "Day was finished, as giving notice to the people when they were to "Leave off work, and when they were to go to "Work again.


I agree that the Jews started their days at evening during that time. Does Jewish practice always make something right?

Please don't try to discre[di]t my proof but present yours if you have one.


Is this a new rule? Who says? If you present something that is false and needs discrediting, then I'll jolly well try to discredit it. :mrgreen:
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.


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