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Does 'evening' mean '(total) dark'?

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chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 08 Jun 2008, 08:29

BrotherArnold wrote:“1. Do you believe that the Passover lamb is sacrificed around 3pm?”

RESPONSE; YES! Between the evenings/darks.

“2. Do you believe the Passover lamb was sacrificed "at even" (B'EREB)? (see Deut. 16 :6)”

RESPONSE; NO! I believe this word, which means dark, should be understood as BETWEEN THE DARKS/evenings as many other Scriptures teaches. See Exodus 12:6 etc.

“3. Do you still insist that "evening" is ALWAYS "dark"?

RESPONSE; YES! Until someone can conclusively show otherwise. Do you have another Scripture that you can use, or is this the ONLY ONE, because we both agree that Deuteronomy 16:6 is referring to BETWEEN THE EVENINGS according to Exodus 12:6?
Since you originally only asked for ONE Scripture, and since you don't believe the ONE that you found for me, i believe i have proved my case. And although we do "agree" that it is referring to "BTE", we don't agree on what "BTE" is, so that is no agreement. My contention, which this verse CONCLUSIVELY PROVES, is that "evening" and "BTE" occur at the same time. So either the Passover sacrifice wasn't commanded at 3pm, OR "evening" isn't always "dark".

And for the record, my answers to all 3 questions are exactly the opposite of yours.
“If you answered "YES" to ALL 3 questions, then by deductive reasoning (LOGIC), it must be "dark" at 3pm.

RESPONSE; since we both agree that it is not dark at 3 p.m., it is obvious that Deuteronomy 16:6 should be understood as BETWEEN THE EVENINGS even though the word for evening/dark is used.
No, it should be understood that "BTE" & "evening" are concurrent. There are several Hebrew words for "dark", and NONE of them are etymologically related to "Ereb".
I challenge you to pinpoint a conclusive EVENING THAT IS NOT referring to “between the evenings” BUT is referring to anything other than dark.
Since it is clear that you will reject any Scripture i come up with, OR you'll simply add more conditions to your challenge, i respectfully decline your new challenge.
In Genesis one we find the Hebrew word evening which ends day ONE and then again the word evening that ends day TWO. Why would not between the evenings be anywhere between day ONE and day TWO?
If you're speaking of the "24-hr day", in Gen.1 they ended (and the next day started) in the MORNING. Or, if you're speaking of the "12-hr day", "evening" is the point where the 12-hr day ends. So either way we're back to "BTE" (YOUR definition) being a completely abmiguous and meaningless term that has no purpose being in Scripture.
I challenge you to find 1 Single Pl. in Scripture that cannot be argued against, where evening means anything other than dark.
Since you will argue against anything, such a task is futile. :mrgreen:

I rest my case.
Chuck Baldwin
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Postby Watchman555 » 08 Jun 2008, 09:15

“Set apart battle against her. Arise, and let us go up at noon. Woe to us, for the day goes away, for the shadows of the evening are lengthening.

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Postby Watchman555 » 08 Jun 2008, 09:19

And Elohim saw the light, that it was good. And Elohim separated the light from the darkness. And Elohim called the light ‘day’ and the darkness He called ‘night.’

Yahuah Himself has defined what light is, and that is "day". He also defined darkness as "night".

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Postby BrotherArnold » 08 Jun 2008, 11:59

Watchman555 wrote:“Set apart battle against her. Arise, and let us go up at noon. Woe to us, for the day goes away, for the shadows of the evening are lengthening.


Shalom Brother Watchman and All,

I think you are referring to Jeremiah 6:4 and I believe it is the ONLY Scripture that I know of that even comes close to being conclusive and it would be conclusive if it were not for the EVENING SHADOWS AT NIGHT. Try going out at night as the moon rises and watch your shadow on the ground. I never realized how many evening shadows the trees and other objects make until I checked this for myself.

Verse four and five reads,

“4 Prepare ye war against her; arise, and let us go up at noon. Woe unto us! for the day GOETH AWAY, for the shadows of the EVENING are stretched out. 5 ARISE, AND LET US GO BY NIGHT, and let us destroy her palaces. The King James Version (Authorized)”

I would argue that they did not attack at noon but attack at night when the evening shadows/dark shadows were stretched out. The Septuagint says the day has gone down. Adam Clarke says the Chaldeans were called up against Jerusalem and the soldiers were so impatient, when they arrived in the EVENING, regret they have NO MORE DAY, and desire to begin the attack without waiting for the light of the morning.

This Is Found in the Introduction under Chapter Five and under verse five it's self it says, arise, and let us go by night since we have LOST THE DAY. The reason I quote these other scholars and references is so that you won't think that I'm the only one who sees that the day WAS GONE and the evening shadows were upon them.

Try to find just one more as good as this one which is still a little cloudy. Try to remember I can mention dozens of CONCLUSIVE Scripture that show evening is night/dark. Example-
Proverbs 7:9 in the twilight in the “EVENING”, in the BLACK and DARK NIGHT:"


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Postby BrotherArnold » 08 Jun 2008, 12:08

Watchman555 wrote:And Elohim saw the light, that it was good. And Elohim separated the light from the darkness. And Elohim called the light ‘day’ and the darkness He called ‘night.’

Yahuah Himself has defined what light is, and that is "day". He also defined darkness as "night".


I agree that the light is called day and the darkness is called night but I also believe the darkness that he called night is referred to as EVENING and the light that he called day is referred to as morning and this completes’ the definition.

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Postby Watchman555 » 10 Jun 2008, 00:59

Shalom Brother Arnold,

Here's a couple more:


Joshua 8:29
And he hanged the sovereign of Ai on a tree until evening. And at sunset Yehoshua commanded that they should take his corpse down from the tree, and throw it at the entrance of the gate of the city, and raise over it a great heap of stones, to this day.

Deut. 21:23:
“Let his body not remain overnight on the tree, for you shall certainly bury him the same day – for he who is hanged is accursed of Elohim – so that you do not defile the land which Yahuah your Elohim is giving you as an inheritance.

According to the law, it says: "you shall certainly bury him the same day". If the day begins in the evening, after the sun goes down, how is it possible Yehoshua buried them the same day that they were hung? The verse seems to indicate that they were hanging on the tree until evening, and then at SUNSET he gave the command to take them down; which sunset seems to be after evening started. If this evening period that he is talking about is night (dark) or after sunset, he would have been breaking Torah. Which again - states they must be buried the same day.

If you are right and the evening spoken of by Yehoshua is indeed night time, then he would have been breaking the command.


Deut 16:6
but at the place where Yahuah your Elohim chooses to make His Name dwell, there you slaughter the Passover in the evening, at the going down of the sun, at the appointed time you came out of Mitsrayim.

If the day begins in the evening, and evening means night time, which is the beginning of the next day the Passover lamb would have been actually slaughtered on the 15th, after sundown and not the 14th. Unless you kill the lamb going into the 14th from the 13th. Then it would have been killed on the 14th according to Scripture.

It seems that if the evening is indeed the dark period that it is an impossibility for the day to begin at that point. In other words, the understanding of the day beginning at evening and evening being night does not gel in my mind.

By the way, your explanation of YirmeYahu 6:4 is reasonable, yet highly unlikely. The verse seems to be talking about a period of time after the day light period ended. Pending further investigation, it seems that the time of the full moon would be the time of the moon's greatest ability to cast shadow at night, but when the full moon rises as the sun is going down and the day turns to night, the full moon is rising and is indeed casting a shadow. My point is, at that particular time the shadows cast by the moon are shortening rather than lengthening, because the moon is rising and not setting.

Shalom,

~Greg

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Postby BrotherArnold » 10 Jun 2008, 02:12

Shalom Brother Greg,

I am saving this place to respond but cannot find my Notes. I did the following for your consideration while I find my Notes and have time to fully respond. Please do not let me forget to respond.


In the book of Philo- CONCERNING PITS XXV111 (151) it says,


For the lawgiver would, if it had been in his power, have condemned those men to ten thousand deaths. But since this was not possible, he prescribed another punishment for them, commanding those who had slain a man to be hanged upon a tree. (152) And after having established this ordinance he returned again to his natural humanity, treating with mercy even those who had behaved unmercifully towards others, and he pronounced, “Let “not” the “sun set” upon persons hanging on a tree;” but let them be buried under the earth and be concealed from sight “before” sunset. For it was necessary to raise up on high all those who were enemies to every part of the world, so as to show most evidently to the sun, and to the heaven, and to the air, and to the water, and to the earth, that they had been chastised; and after that it was proper to remove them into the region of the dead, and to bury them, in order to prevent their polluting the things upon the earth.

Deuteronomy 22:23 says, “his body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him “that day;” (for he that is hanged is accursed of Elohim;) that thy land be not defiled,”

Philo understood “that day” to mean “before sunset” on the day that he was hanged which ended at sunset. I can see how someone today might understand this differently but we are examining how the Jews of our Savior's day understood it.

If Philo believed the day began any ended at sunrise he would have said “Let “not” the “sun RISE” upon persons hanging on a tree;” but let them be buried under the earth and be concealed from sight “before” sunRISE. i.e. he would have said let him be buried “that day” before sunrise instead of let him be buried “that day” before sunset, if he understood the day begins at sunrise. He understood “that day” was before sunset when a new day began.
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Postby Watchman555 » 10 Jun 2008, 03:46

Shalom Brother Arnold,

Just a couple of questions so I can understand your position more clearly.

Code: Select all

NIGHT (evening)    DAY (morning)    NIGHT (evening)   DAY (morning)
      DARK           LIGHT             DARK            LIGHT 


If I understand you correctly.

So what is between the evenings (plural)? Would it not be day that is between the two evenings?

Or in the midst of the evening (singular)? Which would be somewhere in the confines of one single night?

To me, the phrase "between the evenings" is somewhat ambiguous because clearly this could be understood at least two different ways. Because some people believe that there is an evening that ends the day and one that begins the day. If it was between those two evenings it would be at the going down of the sun, which logically seems to be the middle point between these two evenings, unless as some believe, the evening begins as it descends from high noon. But it seems if one chose that understanding that the day would also begin at that point. Another understanding would be one evening that starts shortly before sunset and lasts until shortly after sunset when the mixing of light has stopped and it becomes night.

So by your understanding, what is the exact sign that evening/night has begun?

Example: Just after the sun is fully set under the horizon. OR When you see three stars.

Thanks,

~Greg

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Postby chuckbaldwin » 10 Jun 2008, 19:15

Brother Philo wrote:In the book of Philo- CONCERNING PITS XXV111 (151) it says,
(152) ... and he pronounced, “Let “not” the “sun set” upon persons hanging on a tree;” but let them be buried under the earth and be concealed from sight “before” sunset.
Brother Joshua wrote:(8:29) And he hanged the sovereign of Ai on a tree until evening. And at sunset Yehoshua commanded that they should take his corpse down from the tree
Brother Moses wrote:(Deut. 21:23) Let his body not remain overnight on the tree, for you shall certainly bury him the same day.
If Philo is in fact correct, and in agreement with Moses, the bodies must be taken down before sunset and buried the same day.

This being the case, Joshua's "evening" must have started before sunset, and therefore NOT in the NIGHT/DARK.

Also, there's an implication in Moses' statement that "the same day" can extend well into the night, as long as it's not the WHOLE night (i.e. "OVERnight").
Chuck Baldwin

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Postby BrotherArnold » 11 Jun 2008, 06:48

Watchman555 wrote:Shalom Brother Arnold,

Just a couple of questions so I can understand your position more clearly.

Code: Select all

NIGHT (evening)    DAY (morning)    NIGHT (evening)   DAY (morning)
      DARK           LIGHT             DARK            LIGHT 


If I understand you correctly.

So what is between the evenings (plural)? Would it not be day that is between the two evenings?

Or in the midst of the evening (singular)? Which would be somewhere in the confines of one single night?

To me, the phrase "between the evenings" is somewhat ambiguous because clearly this could be understood at least two different ways. Because some people believe that there is an evening that ends the day and one that begins the day. If it was between those two evenings it would be at the going down of the sun, which logically seems to be the middle point between these two evenings, unless as some believe, the evening begins as it descends from high noon. But it seems if one chose that understanding that the day would also begin at that point. Another understanding would be one evening that starts shortly before sunset and lasts until shortly after sunset when the mixing of light has stopped and it becomes night.

So by your understanding, what is the exact sign that evening/night has begun?

Example: Just after the sun is fully set under the horizon. OR When you see three stars.

Thanks,

~Greg



If I understand you correctly.

So what is between the evenings (plural)? Would it not be day that is between the two evenings?

RESPONSE; yes, it is entire 24-hour day, from evening to evening.The ONLY conclusive evening is the evening that ends each day as in Genesis one.

You wrote,

Or in the midst of the evening (singular)? Which would be somewhere in the confines of one single night?

RESPONSE; yes, such as midnight or one of the evening watches etc.

You wrote,

To me, the phrase "between the evenings" is somewhat ambiguous because clearly this could be understood at least two different ways.
Because some people believe that there is an evening that ends the day and one that begins the day.

RESPONSE; there's only one scriptural evening and that is a one that ends the day. There is no Scripture for another evening.

Evening by itself is ambiguous and without other terms such as noon, midnight, twilight, rising of the sun, going down of the sun etc. we would not be able to communicate a specific time between the evenings. If there were such a thing another evening, it would be confusing. To prove the confusion men have created other evenings, some say evening is when the sun begins its downward descent after it reaches its apex other say that evening is when the sun touches the horizon and other say when the sun goes below the horizon it is an evening and still others say there is an evening before morning and other say there is an evening between dusk and dark and I believe the Scripture teaches that evening is dark. Can you see the confusion that is in existence today among feast keepers? And that is because everyone makes up his or her definition of the evening, even though they cannot find one conclusive Scripture for it. The word evening is not ambiguous if we know what it means, anything else is confusion created by man and his definitions.

You wrote,
If it was between those two evenings it would be at the going down of the sun, which logically seems to be the middle point between these two evenings, unless as some believe, the evening begins as it descends from high noon.

RESPONSE; this is true but we must find a separate evening other than the one in Genesis and many other scriptures that ENDS THE DAY/light.

You wrote,

But it seems if one chose that understanding that the day would also begin at that point. Another understanding would be one evening that starts shortly before sunset and lasts until shortly after sunset when the mixing of light has stopped and it becomes night.

RESPONSE; again, in Genesis and throughout the Scripture, EVENING IS SYNONYMOUS with DARKNESS/NIGHT but is never synonymous with any of these other definitions such as shortly before sunset.

You wrote,

So by your understanding, what is the exact sign that evening/night has begun?

RESPONSE; when the light that He called day/morning is completely gone then the darkness that He called night/evening begins. Evening is synonymous with darkness/night and morning is synonymous with light/day. Some things are hidden in simplicity.

You wrote,

Example: Just after the sun is fully set under the horizon. OR When you see three stars.

RESPONSE; that is another definition of evening that I failed to mention above and is very very close to being right. The only thing I would disagree with is the three stars because when it is dark/night, you can see all the visible stars. If someone will wait a few more minutes they will see all the stars which rules the night and then the Genesis scriptural evening begins. All the other evenings create confusion and no one knows a very key part of the creation calendar. I have shown where evening is synonymous with dark/night that ends the day. Perhaps someone can show where evening is synonymous with one of the other definitions.

Brother Arnold
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Postby BrotherArnold » 11 Jun 2008, 11:00

(8:29) And he hanged the sovereign of Ai on a tree until evening. And at sunset Yehoshua commanded that they should take his corpse down from the tree I believe I will go with Brother Josh on this one and assume he took the body down as soon as it was night/evening and buried at it that day i.e. the day he took it down and did not let it hang on the tree all night until the morning. If we interpret it this way, we do not have to create another evening and we know from other scriptures, that sun set is also synonymous with evening and dark. See Genesis 15:17
“and it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark,”

When the sun is completely down it is dark.


Amos 8:9 says “I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:”
If the sun goes down at noon, it will be dark.

Micah 3:6
“the sun shall go down over the prophets, and the day shall be dark over them.
Here again we see that when the sun goes down, it is dark.
And for these ye shall be unclean: whosoever toucheth the carcase of them shall be unclean until the even. And whosoever beareth ought of the carcase of them shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even. [LEVITICUS 11:24-25]
Compare the above verse with the following and you will see that sundown and EVENING is synonymous.

Or whosoever toucheth any creeping thing, whereby he may be made unclean, or a man of whom he may take uncleanness, whatsoever uncleanness he hath; The soul which hath touched any such shall be UNCLEAN UNTIL EVEN, and shall not EAT of the HOLY THINGS, unless he wash his flesh with water. And when the “SUN IS DOWN”, he shall be CLEAN, and shall afterwards EAT of the HOLY THINGS … [LEVITICUS 22:5-7]

Notice: the two above Scriptures conclusively proves that sundown and evening are synonymous, one says, and be unclean until the even. [LEVITICUS 11:24-25]
And the other says, And when the “sun is down”, he shall be clean, and shall afterwards EAT of the holy things… [LEVITICUS 22:5-7] therefore sundown and evening are synonymous. To further prove that when the sun is down is synonymous with evening, the Septuagint actually translates it as evening.

The conclusion is when the sun went down it was dark at evening and Joshua took the body down and buried it that day, not leaving it all night until the morning, according to the commandment.

Thank you for the correction and I will check or my other translation of Philo and see if the translator made a mistake or Philo missed it.

Brother Arnold
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Brother Arnold

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