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Prophet Joel and date of True Pentecost

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BrotherArnold
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Postby BrotherArnold » 06 Jun 2008, 19:44

[quote=""Shalom Sister Cindy,

I want to know the truth, whatever it may be. If Pentecost means 50 and commemorates the giving of the Law and they did not get to the mount until around 60 days after wave sheaf, to receive the law, this alone kills the traditional third month Pentecost.

Exodus 19:1-2 teaches that the children of Israel did not even get to the mount until the 15th or 16th of the third month, which is beyond the 50 day count from the wave sheaf. I will prove this by Scripture and deductive reasoning but let us first read the verse.

1 In the third month, when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai. 2 For/BECAUSE they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the desert of Sinai, and had pitched in the wilderness; and there Israel camped before the mount.

“same day” is not referring to the first day of the month or the third day of the month but is referring to the same day that they went forth out of the land of Egypt. I believe it was on the morrow after the Passover/16th when they actually left Egypt according to number 33:3 And the Book of Jubilees Chapter 1:1 which says they came to the Mount on the 16th day of the third month but I will not get into that now because all I have to do is prove that they did not reach the mount on the first day of the month or the third day of the month.

Exodus the 16 Chapter teaches that they camped in the wilderness of SIN for at least seven days and the earliest they could have scripturally left that camp sight where they began receiving manna for six days would be on the 23rd of the SECOND month because the 22nd is the weekly Sabbath and assuming they only took a week's supply of water, which probably would have been at least twice that, not knowing when they would find more water. They would have filled their water barrels and laid skin's of water across the animal's back but even with if it was only a week's supply of water, it had run out. And after the water was gone and 2 more days had pasted, when they were panicking and saying they were dying of thirst. Even with this understanding they would be on the 2nd day of the third new month/moon and they still had to fight with Amelek AFTER that they prayed and YHWH gave them water.

At least two days passed AFTER that because Moses said tomorrow go out and fight Amelek and the battle lasted all day. Now assuming they left without any rest and went straight to the mount, it would be passed the third day of the third month. I believe there was wounded on both sides because the battle went back and forth as Moses hands were lifted and there had to be time for the wounded to heal as soon as the battle was over. Another day passed when Moses said go out TOMORROW and fight against Amalek. See Chapter 17 of Exodus for proof. Also the word Refdim which is plural for rests according to the Smith's Bible dictionary and it also has the root were for healing or healings. It appears from this word that they either had two weekly Sabbath rest or a Sabbath and new moon. Exodus 19:2 says, for they were departed from Refdim/plural rests. There is much more to this and I will try to find my notes later but my point is the Scripture teaches a later arrival at the mount which makes the third month giving of the Law impossible.

Brother Arnold









][/quote]
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...

Brother Arnold
See www.lunarsabbath.info

wstruse
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Postby wstruse » 07 Jun 2008, 07:01

Exodus 19:11-13 11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day YHWH will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai. 12 And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death: 13 There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.

The English phrase "when the trumpet soundeth long", is the 1st usage of the "yowbel" or Jubilee in the Scripture. The next 13 usages are in reference to the 50th year Juiblee of Lev. 25. The following table shows that it is in fact possible for the children of Israel to have been given the law in the 3rd month on the "same day" of the week of the Exodus, 50 days exactly from the crossing of the Red Sea.

For a more complete explanation you can read a PDF file here:
http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/Jubilee_Code/The_1st_Jubilee.pdf

Regards,
Wstruse


Also worth noting - - It only took 3 days from the crossing of the Red Sea before the children of Israel were in need of water.

Exodus 15:22-24 22 So Moses brought Israel from the Red sea, and they went out into the wilderness of Shur; and they went three days in the wilderness, and found no water. 23 And when they came to Marah, they could not drink of the waters of Marah, for they were bitter: therefore the name of it was called Marah. 24 And the people murmured against Moses, saying, What shall we drink?

Image

chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 07 Jun 2008, 20:38

Here's a reasonable timetable for the journey from the Wilderness of Sin (Ex.16) to Sinai (Ex.19). Upon reading chs.16-18 + looking at at map, i found that the Wilderness of Sin, Rephidim, & Mt. Sinai, are all in the same general locale, so no more that a days journey would be required between any 2 points. Also, Horeb is another name for Sinai.

2/23 - left Wilderness of Sin + pitched at Rephidim.
2/24 - extra travel day???
2/25 - complained about water + Moses struck the Rock.
2/26-27 - battle with Amalek.
2/28 - recovering from wounds???
2/29 - slack day or travel day or Sabbath??
3/1 - left Rephidim - pitched at Sinai.

Note that ch.18 is about Jethro's visit, but is out of sequence, because they were already encamped at Mt. Sinai when Jethro came.
Last edited by chuckbaldwin on 08 Jun 2008, 03:55, edited 1 time in total.
Chuck Baldwin
By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

cindy
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Postby cindy » 07 Jun 2008, 21:10

Hello All,

When I look at conflicting details on a subject what I do is find the most information and see where it leads.
What I have read leads me to believe that Sivan is important as well as the other Pentecosts.

1. Doing a chronology of Exodus chapters 19 to end gives the impression of two important dates.
One in Sivan and the other in Av.
I do not subscribe to the "same day" in Exodus 19 as meaning from Nisan 15.

2. Jubilees has two very important covenants on Sivan 15. When you take the Exodus timeline and get the "3000" lost in Av and back up 50 days you get close to Sivan 15th.

3. DSS backs up the use of the Pentecontad calendar by the writers. It was used by the ancients and not so ancients and YHWH has deemed it important by their example.
Philo
On the Contemplative Life
The Therapeutae
VIII. (64) But since the entertainments of the greatest celebrity are full of such trifling and folly, bearing conviction in themselves, if any one should think fit not to regard vague opinion and the character which has been commonly handed down concerning them as feasts which have gone off with the most eminent success, I will oppose to them the entertainments of those persons who have devoted their whole life and themselves to the knowledge and contemplation of the affairs of nature in accordance with the most sacred admonitions and precepts of the prophet Moses. (65) In the first place, these men assemble at the end of seven weeks, venerating not only the simple week of seven days, but also its multiplied power, for they know it to be pure and always virgin; and it is a prelude and a kind of forefeast of the greatest feast, which is assigned to the number fifty, the most holy and natural of numbers, being compounded of the power of the right-angled triangle, which is the principle of the origination and condition of the whole.

James Dwyer has a nice write up on the subject (although I don;t agree with some of his specific conclusions).
http://web.archive.org/web/200102121340 ... e2.htm#top

So, there you have it.

Pentecost every 50 days.

Lastly, this is not just some exercise for the history buffs. This I believe will help us figure out the future events and be better prepared. He doesn;t want us to be in the "dark".

PS: nice chrono calendar Wstruse!

Cindy

BrotherArnold
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Postby BrotherArnold » 08 Jun 2008, 03:21

chuckbaldwin wrote:Here's a reasonable timetable for the journey from the Wilderness of Sin (Ex.16) to Sinai (Ex.19). Upon reading chs.16-18 + looking at at map, i found that the Wilderness of Sin, Rephidim, & Mt. Sinai, are all in the same general locale, so no more that a days journey would be required between any 2 points. Also, Horeb is another name for Sinai.

2/23 - left Wilderness of Sin + pitched at Rephidim.
2/24 - extra travel day???
2/25 - complained about water + Moses struck the Rock.
2/26-27 - battle with Amalek.
2/28 - recovering from wounds???
2/29 - slack day or travel day or Sabbath??/
3/1 - left Rephidim - pitched at Sinai.

Note that ch.18 is about Jethro's visit, but is out of sequence, because they were already encamped at Mt. Sinai when Jethro came.


RESPONSE; how far was it from the wilderness Sin to Riphidim?

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 08 Jun 2008, 07:45

BrotherArnold wrote:How far was it from the wilderness Sin to Riphidim?
After spending an hour searching maps on the internet and looking at maps in my Bibles, it appears that Rephidim is about 10-25 miles from the border of the Wilderness of Sin, and about 10 miles from Mt. Sinai. I couldn't find a really good map, and they put Rephidim is 2 different places, but the farthest is still within a 2-day journey.
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

BrotherArnold
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Postby BrotherArnold » 08 Jun 2008, 12:27

chuckbaldwin wrote:
BrotherArnold wrote:How far was it from the wilderness Sin to Riphidim?
After spending an hour searching maps on the internet and looking at maps in my Bibles, it appears that Rephidim is about 10-25 miles from the border of the Wilderness of Sin, and about 10 miles from Mt. Sinai. I couldn't find a really good map, and they put Rephidim is 2 different places, but the farthest is still within a 2-day journey.



Which border of the wilderness of Sin, the border closest to Rephidim or the border closest to Ramses? It makes a difference you know. We also need to know about how far it is from Ramseys to Rephidim

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 08 Jun 2008, 16:55

BrotherArnold wrote:Which border of the wilderness of Sin, the border closest to Rephidim or the border closest to Ramses? It makes a difference you know. We also need to know about how far it is from Ramseys to Rephidim
Of course it makes a difference. Actually, i shouldn't've used the term "border", because on the maps, the Wilderness of Sin (WoS) is just a large general area and really doesn't show borders.

I'm not trying to prove what actually happened, which is impossible with the available info. I'm only showing that it was possible to get from the WoS to Rephidim in 2 days, and from Rephidim to Sinai in 1 day.

And the distance from Rameses to Rephidim isn't relevent, because we know they were in the WoS on Zif 15-22. From Abib 15 (departed Rameses) to Zif 15 is a WHOLE MONTH, and in a month, they couldn've gone just about anywhere in the Sinai peninsula.
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

BrotherArnold
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Postby BrotherArnold » 09 Jun 2008, 00:34

chuckbaldwin wrote:
BrotherArnold wrote:Which border of the wilderness of Sin, the border closest to Rephidim or the border closest to Ramses? It makes a difference you know. We also need to know about how far it is from Ramseys to Rephidim
Of course it makes a difference. Actually, i shouldn't've used the term "border", because on the maps, the Wilderness of Sin (WoS) is just a large general area and really doesn't show borders.

I'm not trying to prove what actually happened, which is impossible with the available info. I'm only showing that it was possible to get from the WoS to Rephidim in 2 days, and from Rephidim to Sinai in 1 day.

And the distance from Rameses to Rephidim isn't relevent, because we know they were in the WoS on Zif 15-22. From Abib 15 (departed Rameses) to Zif 15 is a WHOLE MONTH, and in a month, they couldn've gone just about anywhere in the Sinai peninsula.



Shalom Brother Chuck,

You wrote,

“And the distance from Rameses to Rephidim isn't relevent, because we know they were in the WoS on Zif 15-22. From Abib 15 (departed Rameses) to Zif 15 is a WHOLE MONTH, and in a month, they couldn've gone just about anywhere in the Sinai peninsula.

RESPONSE; I consider the distance from Rameses to Rephidim VERY relevent because of the pinpointed dates. If we know the date they left Egypt and the date they came to the border of the wilderness of Sin and how many miles it was from Ramseys to the wilderness of Sin and to Rephidim, we came determined how many miles they averaged per day. I have a time line that shows they could not have reached the mount in time for the law to be given to them in 50 days. I have not posted it because you will pounce on it without thinking, as is your manner. I want to get you thinking first and by your above suggestion that the distance from Ramses to Riphidim isn't reverent, proves my point.

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 09 Jun 2008, 20:19

BrotherArnold wrote:
chuckbaldwin wrote:... the distance from Rameses to Rephidim isn't relevent, because we know they were in the WoS on Zif 15-22. From Abib 15 (departed Rameses) to Zif 15 is a WHOLE MONTH, and in a month, they couldn've gone just about anywhere in the Sinai peninsula.
RESPONSE; I consider the distance from Rameses to Rephidim VERY relevent because of the pinpointed dates. If we know the date they left Egypt and the date they came to the border of the wilderness of Sin and how many miles it was from Ramseys to the wilderness of Sin and to Rephidim, we came determined how many miles they averaged per day. I have a time line that shows they could not have reached the mount in time for the law to be given to them in 50 days. I have not posted it because you will pounce on it without thinking, as is your manner. I want to get you thinking first and by your above suggestion that the distance from Ramses to Riphidim isn't reverent, proves my point.
I have already "pounced on your timeline" by virtue of giving MY timeline. And you pounced on my statements without thinking. Like the FACT that they had a WHOLE MONTH to get from Rameses to the WoS.

Num.33 gives a list of their encampments, but no dates, and some of the places aren't precisely located, so any timeline that either of us comes up with is sheer speculation.
For example:
Tradition says they crossed the Red Sea on 1/21, but Scripture doesn't say.
I'll give you a sabbath on 1/22, even though i don't believe it was.
From the Red sea it was a 3-day journey to Marah (v8 ). [1/23-25]
From Marah to Elim is 1 day. [1/26]
From Elim to the Red Sea is 1 day. [1/27]
From the Red Sea to the WoS is 1 day. [1/28]

Since we know they came to the WoS on 2/15, there's 2 weeks unaccounted for: but like i said earlier, they had time to go just about anywhere on the peninsula. So they must've camped more than a day at some of the places, but not knowing the exact details makes it impossible to calculate a meaningful average travel speed.

The rest of the possible timeline after leaving the WoS, i have already given.
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

BrotherArnold
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Postby BrotherArnold » 10 Jun 2008, 04:53

chuckbaldwin wrote:
BrotherArnold wrote:
chuckbaldwin wrote:... the distance from Rameses to Rephidim isn't relevent, because we know they were in the WoS on Zif 15-22. From Abib 15 (departed Rameses) to Zif 15 is a WHOLE MONTH, and in a month, they couldn've gone just about anywhere in the Sinai peninsula.
RESPONSE; I consider the distance from Rameses to Rephidim VERY relevent because of the pinpointed dates. If we know the date they left Egypt and the date they came to the border of the wilderness of Sin and how many miles it was from Ramseys to the wilderness of Sin and to Rephidim, we came determined how many miles they averaged per day. I have a time line that shows they could not have reached the mount in time for the law to be given to them in 50 days. I have not posted it because you will pounce on it without thinking, as is your manner. I want to get you thinking first and by your above suggestion that the distance from Ramses to Riphidim isn't reverent, proves my point.
I have already "pounced on your timeline" by virtue of giving MY timeline. And you pounced on my statements without thinking. Like the FACT that they had a WHOLE MONTH to get from Rameses to the WoS.

Num.33 gives a list of their encampments, but no dates, and some of the places aren't precisely located, so any timeline that either of us comes up with is sheer speculation.
For example:
Tradition says they crossed the Red Sea on 1/21, but Scripture doesn't say.
I'll give you a sabbath on 1/22, even though i don't believe it was.
From the Red sea it was a 3-day journey to Marah (v8 ). [1/23-25]
From Marah to Elim is 1 day. [1/26]
From Elim to the Red Sea is 1 day. [1/27]
From the Red Sea to the WoS is 1 day. [1/28]

Since we know they came to the WoS on 2/15, there's 2 weeks unaccounted for: but like i said earlier, they had time to go just about anywhere on the peninsula. So they must've camped more than a day at some of the places, but not knowing the exact details makes it impossible to calculate a meaningful average travel speed.

The rest of the possible timeline after leaving the WoS, i have already given.



It doesn't matter how long they camped in any particular spot from Ramseys to the wilderness Sin because it still took them 30 days to travel the 150 mi. and therefore they still averaged 5 mi. per day. The following is my new time line.

The children of Israel departed from Ramseys on the 15th day of the FIRST month, Numbers 33:3, and the Almighty spoke to them in the wilderness of Sin on the 15th day of the SECOND month, Exodus 16:1.

Judging from my map of the children of Israel's journey from Ramseys to the Wilderness of Sin is approximately 150 mi. and when we do the math, we find approximately 150 mi. being traveled in 30 days and by dividing 30 into 150 we get an average of 5 mi. per day.

They stayed in the camp at the wilderness of Sin for at least seven days which brings us to a total of 37 days.

According to my map it is approximately 220 mi. from Ramseys to Riphidim therefore it is 70 mi. across the wilderness of Sin to Riphidim. It is conclusive that it took 30 days for them to cover the 150 mi. from Ramseys to the Wilderness of Sin, we can safely conclude that it took another 14 days to travel through the wilderness of Sin to Riphidim totaling 51 days.

When they camped at Riphidim there was no water there and the children of Israel murmured because after 14 days their water was gone and they were dying of thirst, so Moses strikes the rock etc. afterwards they were attacked by Amalek and Moses told Joshua to go out TO MORROW and fight against Amalek which would add another day to the 51 days, totaling 52 days and on the morrow the battle lasted all day until the going down of the sun which would be going into the 53rd day. On day 53, Moses was told to write a book and he also built an altar to the Almighty. Even if they left Riphidim on day 54 and traveled approximately 10 mi. to the mount, it would be day 55 when they reached mount and if the Almighty spoke the 10 commandments to them three days later, which would be a total of 58 days from Ramseys.

This time line is being very generous and it shows they could not have reached mount in the third month for the traditional Pentecost. Someone might question the 5 mi. per day average but a grown man can travel 15 to 20 mi. per day but when we consider women and children moving all their belongings alone with the gold and different treasures from Egypt, I believe we can safely assume that the children and women could not travel the same distance in a day as a grown man, maybe one half the distance which would be seven to 10 mi. per day. On top of this, herding the animals, sheep, goats, and cattle, not to mention any poultry etc. at any rate around 5 mi. per day seems reasonable for such a great multitude traveling in the wilderness, carrying everything they have, headed for a new land. And whether it seems reasonable to someone or not, according to the pinpointed number of days and the distance traveled, 5 mi. per day was the average, this is an absolute. All someone has to do is realize that ancient Israel and Israel today so spring wheat in the spring and reaps it in the summer and this is the Pentecost wheat which is 50 days after the seventh Sabbath complete according to Leviticus 23:16.

Brother Arnold
Last edited by BrotherArnold on 10 Jun 2008, 05:37, edited 2 times in total.
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 10 Jun 2008, 05:17

BrotherArnold wrote:It doesn't matter how long they camped in any particular spot from Ramseys to the wilderness Sin because it still took them 30 days to travel the 150 mi. and therefore they still averaged 5 mi. per day.
Arnold,

I'm not sure why you created an extra thead, then posted the same thing on both threads, unless you just enjoy causing me extra work. :cry: :x :roll:

In any case, like i said in the other thread, the above statement shows a complete lack of mathematical understanding, and evidently there's nothing i can do to help you see it. So i have no further comment.

p.s. I can offer a very simple example to show where your math went astray, IF you would like to see it, and IF you agree not to respond with several paragraphs of mathematically unsound & convoluted reasoning to get around it.
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

BrotherArnold
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Postby BrotherArnold » 10 Jun 2008, 05:55

chuckbaldwin wrote:
BrotherArnold wrote:It doesn't matter how long they camped in any particular spot from Ramseys to the wilderness Sin because it still took them 30 days to travel the 150 mi. and therefore they still averaged 5 mi. per day.
Arnold,

I'm not sure why you created an extra thead, then posted the same thing on both threads, unless you just enjoy causing me extra work. :cry: :x :roll:

In any case, like i said in the other thread, the above statement shows a complete lack of mathematical understanding, and evidently there's nothing i can do to help you see it. So i have no further comment.

p.s. I can offer a very simple example to show where your math went astray, IF you would like to see it, and IF you agree not to respond with several paragraphs of mathematically unsound & convoluted reasoning to get around it.


There's no way I am going to let you dismiss this time line by saying that there's nothing you can do to help me see what you are saying. Perhaps someone following this thread can explain to me and you what each of us are saying. And I don't doubt I might be off a day or two on my math but seriously doubt it will be enough to pull you out of this dilemma. But yes, I would like to see if any way.

Perhaps Sister cindy or someone can explain to you that if from point A to point B is approximately 150 mi. and a they traveled it in 30 days, this averages 5 mi. per day, no matter how many stops were made and how much time we spent at each stop. They may have traveled 3 mi. 1 day and 7 mi. the next which averages 5 mi. per day.

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

chuckbaldwin
Posts: 334
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Location: East Ridge, TN

Postby chuckbaldwin » 10 Jun 2008, 19:22

Arnold, since you posted the same thing in 2 different threads AGAIN, i'm confused as to which one to reply to. So i'll hold off on my reply until you decide where you want me to post it. I really don't have time to go around double-posting!
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

cindy
Posts: 71
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 07:29

Postby cindy » 11 Jun 2008, 15:27

Hello All,

During my Holy Convocation today I came to a reading in Jubilees that I want to share...
Forgive me if I already posted it. I can't remember.

Chapter 6

1 And on the first of the third month, he went out of the ark, and he built an altar on the mountain.
....
11 Therefore, He spoke to you so that you also might make a covenant with the children of Israel with an oath in this month upon the mountain. And you will sprinkle blood upon them on account of all of the words of the covenant which
12 YHWH made with them for all time.
....
15 And he gave a sign to Noah and his children that there should not again be a flood upon the earth.
....
20 And you, command the children of Israel so that they might keep this feast in all of their generations as a commandment to them. One day per year in this month they shall celebrate the feast, for it is the feast of Shebuot (means weeks AND oaths) and it is the feast of the first fruits. This feast is twofold and of two natures.

Cindy


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