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Whom did/will YHWH & Yahshua 'Marry'?"

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chuckbaldwin
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Location: East Ridge, TN

Whom did/will YHWH & Yahshua 'Marry'?"

Postby chuckbaldwin » 30 May 2008, 11:32

cindy wrote:Chuck wrote
Another point about YAHWEH's 'divorce' from Israel is that it would only be finalized IF & when Israel 'married' another -- Deut.24:1-4, which never happened. Israel ONLY 'played the harlot' (as if that wasn't bad enough); and all of her 'lovers' rejected her (see Hos.5:7 + context). So, in Jer.3:8, even though YAHWEH says that He 'put her away and gave her a bill of divorce', just a few verses later in 3:14, He can legally say that He is still 'married' to her, and plead with her to return.
Yes, YHWH wants his bride to return, but she cannot unless she is Born Again thru the blood of Moschiach.
The only way for the bride to re-marry YHWH is if She Dies and becomes a New Creature.
2 Corinthians 5 [16]
Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known [the Messiah] according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in [the Messiah], he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of [YHWH], who has reconciled us to Himself through [Yahshua the Messiah], and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that [YHWH] was in [the Messiah] reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then, we are ambassadors for [the Messiah], as though [YHWH] were pleading through us: we implore you on [the Messiah]'s behalf, be reconciled to [YHWH].

Is Paul talking to Pagans who never knew YHWH. How can someone be "reconciled" if they never knew YHWH in the first place? Paul is talking to descendants of the Northern Kingdom who according to the promise to Abraham have become so numerous (like the stars in the sky) and spread out all over the "world".

This is all part of the future Marriage Supper of the Lamb.
The Two Houses come together under Moschiach and become One.
Not Jew or Greek nor female or male, but eventually ALL in All.

The first marriage covenant was broken and Northern Israel was divorced, Judah was severely punished, but not divorced. The New Covenant is a New Marriage contract sealed in Messiah's blood and we will celebrate the feast at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.
This is kinda hard, because there are several points to address, but they're all intermingled, making it impossible to respond to single statements. Since we're dealing with types & symbolism, i don't claim to be 100% correct, but here's my best shot. Also, my intent is to focus mainly on "Who's Who", and not so much on the requirements & processes involved.

Notice i underlined "reconcile". An "estranged" couple don't have to repeat their marriage ceremony; they simply "reconcile". Likewise YHWH doesn't have to "re-marry" Israel; He simply "reconciles" them. I believe this happens at the beginning of the Millenium at the Ezekiel 37 resurrection, when the "whole House of Israel" (including Judah) will be resurrected and be given YHWH's Spirit (spiritually "conceived", but not yet "born again").

I believe that Judah was also "divorced". TWICE in fact - partially in 604-585 BC, and finally in 70 AD. This isn't mentioned in the context of Jer.3, because it hadn't happened yet. YHWH said even though "Israel played the harlot, Let not Judah offend" (Hos.4:15). But Judah sinned anyway, even moreso than Israel, and was put away TWICE.

Another major item is that many, like WCG & Co, believe that Yahshua was the "YHWH" who 'married' Israel at Mt. Sinai, but i don't believe that anymore. The Elohim of Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob, mentioned in Ex.3:15, is mentioned in Acts 3:13 as having a Son - Yahshua. The "Marriage Supper of the Lamb" is NOT the same as the Father's reconciliation with Israel.

So it was the FATHER, Who married the NATION of Israel (the "Woman" of Rev.12), and it is the SON, Who will marry the "Virgin daughters of Zion" (Rev.7 & 14) - not the whole "church", but the 144,000 most faithful of the church (also being of 12 of the Tribes of Israel), who "follow the Lamb wherever He goes". This is the YAHWEH Family in a nutshell:

1st generation = YAHWEH + Israel = the Father + Mother (already & still married, and soon
to be reconciled.
2nd generation = Yahshua + 144,000 = Son + Daughters.
3rd generation = the Great Multitude = the [Grand]-Children.

Any comments?
Chuck Baldwin
By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

kickme
Posts: 132
Joined: 29 Dec 2007, 18:48

Postby kickme » 30 May 2008, 12:33

Unless you are confused between Elohim and Yahweh.
What does Elohim mean in Hebrew, is it an entity or a title? Or is it as some claim a catch all word for mighty one/ones?

chuckbaldwin
Posts: 334
Joined: 21 Oct 2007, 13:44
Location: East Ridge, TN

Yahweh or Elohim?

Postby chuckbaldwin » 30 May 2008, 17:18

kickme wrote:Unless you are confused between Elohim and Yahweh.
What does Elohim mean in Hebrew, is it an entity or a title? Or is it as some claim a catch all word for mighty one/ones?
Hi Kickme,

As i understand it, "elohim" is, as you say, a "catch all" word meaning "mighty one(s)". YHWH is the name of the FATHER - the "Most High Elohim"; but it is ALSO the "Family Name" of the entire Family that the FATHER is in the process of procreating (Eph.3:14-15).

To distinguish between the different levels of "elohim", i sometimes refer to the YHWH-Family as the "Divine Elohim".
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

kickme
Posts: 132
Joined: 29 Dec 2007, 18:48

Postby kickme » 31 May 2008, 00:48

All I can say on this further then, is every time I read Revelations and Isaiah, it makes it pretty clear to me.
There is only one first and last, and the first and last declared that he was dead, and is alive forever.

chuckbaldwin
Posts: 334
Joined: 21 Oct 2007, 13:44
Location: East Ridge, TN

Postby chuckbaldwin » 31 May 2008, 21:35

kickme wrote:All I can say on this further then, is every time I read Revelations and Isaiah, it makes it pretty clear to me.
There is only one first and last, and the first and last declared that he was dead, and is alive forever.
Hi Kickme,

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I have a wild idea, but i wouldn't want to waste time addressing something i thought you meant, when you meant something else.
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

cindy
Posts: 71
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 07:29

Postby cindy » 01 Jun 2008, 06:23

Hello All,

Interesting topic, Chuck.

My understanding is that all of the commandments and Holy Days, etc are meant to teach Spiritual ideas.
When we live these commandments, etc we are close to YHWH.
This has been my experience.

Marriage is one of those teachings.
The whole purpose is oneness of mind and purpose.

The interesting part comes when trying to figure out who is getting married to who.

Chuck wrote
So it was the FATHER, Who married the NATION of Israel (the "Woman" of Rev.12), and it is the SON, Who will marry the "Virgin daughters of Zion" (Rev.7 & 14) - not the whole "church", but the 144,000 most faithful of the church (also being of 12 of the Tribes of Israel), who "follow the Lamb wherever He goes". This is the YAHWEH Family in a nutshell:


My understanding is that the woman in Rev 12 is the Spiritual Mother Mary. E.L. Martin figured out celestially that this was the telling the time of Messiah's birth and he pinpointed the date as Sept 11, 3 BCE.
There is a whole genre of study called biblical astronomy which I am interested in.

Rev 7 and 14 tell me the 144,000 will rule and reign with Messiah in the promised land (Ezekiel 40-49). They will be the "changed" as Paul puts it.
1 Corinthians 15:50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Rev 20:6
Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The actual "marriage"ceremony will occur after the 1000 year reign after all enemies and death are totally defeated and the New Jerusalem comes to the New Earth for the Groom always takes His Bride to His New Home.
For during that 1000 year reign more people will be born and consequently "more bride". Not all, of course, but many.

For the the marriage Supper of the Lamb (Spiritual Tabernacles)is for those who have kept the marriage covenant of Mt. Sinai (commandments) and the marriage covenant of Yahusha (testimony). For those who were born before Yahusha walked the Earth this testimony is fulfilled with having/living the Faith that YHWH is salvation.

Nobody marries "the Lamb". The Lamb is what was killed to seal the Spiritual Covenant in sinless /unblemished Blood.
Afterwards comes the second resurrection/Bema Seat and others who have "made the grade" will live everlasting.
The Perfect Judge will rule on this. Why have a Bema Seat if all will be condemned? The "Ezekiel Holy land" (1000 year reign) cannot handle the Saint Numbers that Rev talks about. The 1500 mile square (length, height, and width) New Jerusalem could.

There are Two Books of Life.

The Lamb's Book of Life
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

AND
The Book of Life
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
(I believe this is the Torah with names of people encoded throughout and their deeds)
Exodus 32:33
Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
This is not the Lamb's Book to my thinking.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it (New Jerusalem)any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

We could do a whole thread on the Two Books.


Cindy

kickme
Posts: 132
Joined: 29 Dec 2007, 18:48

Postby kickme » 01 Jun 2008, 09:10

you guys are more christian than I thought.
I never knew scripture anywhere to teach we serve two gods/masters..... this is unbelievable

chuckbaldwin
Posts: 334
Joined: 21 Oct 2007, 13:44
Location: East Ridge, TN

Postby chuckbaldwin » 01 Jun 2008, 10:23

cindy wrote:My understanding is that the woman in Rev 12 is the Spiritual Mother Mary. E.L. Martin figured out celestially that this was the telling the time of Messiah's birth and he pinpointed the date as Sept 11, 3 BCE.
Hi Cindy,

Some of your comments i just don't comprehend, this being 1 of them. :?
I lean toward the Messiah's birth being Ethanim 15, 5 BCE, but i doubt that anyone has it nailed down for certain.
There is a whole genre of study called biblical astronomy which I am interested in.
Yeah, i think that would be fascinating. If only there were time to do all that we want/need to do. :(
The actual "marriage"ceremony will occur after the 1000 year reign after all enemies and death are totally defeated and the New Jerusalem comes to the New Earth for the Groom always takes His Bride to His New Home.
For during that 1000 year reign more people will be born and consequently "more bride". Not all, of course, but many.
I see the "Marriage" (Rev.19:7) as occurring AFTER the 7 last plagues (Rev.16), & AFTER the destruction of Mystery Babylon (Rev.17-18), but BEFORE Satan is bound (Rev.20:1-2). The Lamb's Wife will rule with him. Those who are "Born" during the millenium are what i see as the "Children" produced from the "Marriage".
Nobody marries "the Lamb". The Lamb is what was killed to seal the Spiritual Covenant in sinless /unblemished Blood.
I'm not understanding you here. The "Lamb" was resurrected. Also, this seems to contradict 2 other comments where you acknowledged the "Marriage of the Lamb". I think it would be a great disappointment to His "Wife", having "made herself ready" (19:7), to be left "standing at the altar" so to speak.
The "Ezekiel Holy land" (1000 year reign) cannot handle the Saint Numbers that Rev talks about. The 1500 mile square (length, height, and width) New Jerusalem could.
I think you lost me on this also. I'm not sure of the current population of the old Jerusalem at present, but i'm sure i'ts way over 144K. And Spirit Beings don't take up much space anyway.:D I'm sure you've heard the old riddle: "How many angels can sit (or dance?) on the head of a pin?".
There are Two Books of Life.
The Lamb's Book of Life
AND
The Book of Life
(I believe this is the Torah with names of people encoded throughout and their deeds)
This is not the Lamb's Book to my thinking.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it (New Jerusalem)any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
I would agree that they are 2 different books. My guess is that the 2nd one is simply a euphemism for our mortal human life, which we are "written into" at conception, and "erased from" at physical death. So in Ex.32:33 Moses was just asking Yahweh to take his life if He couldn't forgive Israel.

I believe Rev.20:12+15 are contextually talking about the Lamb's Book. Although maybe there are 3 "books of life".
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

cindy
Posts: 71
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 07:29

Postby cindy » 01 Jun 2008, 15:31

Hello All,

Rev 7:19
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

These people cannot fit into the Holy Land described in Ezekiel 40-48.

Now they can fit into New Jerusalem.
Rev 21:16
And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

A furlong is 1/8 of a mile so 12,000 furlongs equals 1500 miles wide on all sides and 1500 miles TALL.
Now this can handle alot of people!!

The 1000 year reign is the same as Ezekiel 40-48 so if by my understanding if something does not "fit" into that vision then it is not correct or it comes before or after.

======================================

Chuck wrote
I see the "Marriage" (Rev.19:7) as occurring AFTER the 7 last plagues (Rev.16), & AFTER the destruction of Mystery Babylon (Rev.17-1Cool, but BEFORE Satan is bound (Rev.20:1-2). The Lamb's Wife will rule with him. Those who are "Born" during the millenium are what i see as the "Children" produced from the "Marriage".

How do you get "children" from this?
Do you have any scripture that gives this impression?

Cindy

chuckbaldwin
Posts: 334
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Location: East Ridge, TN

Postby chuckbaldwin » 01 Jun 2008, 16:48

cindy wrote:Rev 7:19
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

These people cannot fit into the Holy Land described in Ezekiel 40-48.
Hi Cindy,

I don't know why they would have to fit. The Holy Land is reserved for Israel, so i would assume this "great multitude" from all nations will be spread out over all the earth, each assisting the Messiah by teaching their own peoples. That doesn't mean they can't VISIT the Holy Land, but they don't need to RESIDE there.
The 1000 year reign is the same as Ezekiel 40-48 so if by my understanding if something does not "fit" into that vision then it is not correct or it comes before or after.
We just started reading those chapters in Sabbath meeting. As i recall, they deal with the following items as they will be in the Millenium:
1. Details of the measurements & materials of the Temple,
2. Feast days & sacrifices,
3. Re-apportionment of the Land among the Tribes of Israel.

I'm not sure what your mean by "fitting", but if you're implying that things + people + nations that aren't mentioned in chs.40-48 don't exist, i would have to disagree. There will be a whole world of people in the process of conversion. Ezekiel simply is focusing on the above-mentioned things (+ maybe some i don't recall).
Chuck wrote
I see the "Marriage" (Rev.19:7) as occurring AFTER the 7 last plagues (Rev.16), & AFTER the destruction of Mystery Babylon (Rev.17-1Cool, but BEFORE Satan is bound (Rev.20:1-2). The Lamb's Wife will rule with him. Those who are "Born" during the millenium are what i see as the "Children" produced from the "Marriage".
How do you get "children" from this?
Do you have any scripture that gives this impression?
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased YHWH to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of YHWH shall prosper in his hand.

Isa 8:18 Behold, I and the children whom YHWH hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from YHWH of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.


The above is quoted in the NT as being Messianic:

Heb 2:13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which YHWH hath given me.

This strongly suggests to me that the Messiah will have "Children", thus completing "Divine Elohim Family".
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

cindy
Posts: 71
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 07:29

Postby cindy » 04 Jun 2008, 06:24

Hello Chuck and All,

I can see how you come to the conclusion of "children".
I take Is 53:10 literally, but that is another thread.

When I mentioned "fit" I meant it literally as in the number of people. I believe in a literally bodily resurrection.
New Jerusalem is the "mansion with many rooms"
John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

I have been going over Revelation and am in process of changing my mind on when the Marriage Supper will occur.
The more I read the more I see unlike before. There are different groups being talked about and different time frames.
When thinking about why Yahusha only stayed 40 days and left I wondered why?
I also wondered why was not the Sivan Pentecost fulfilled in some way.
My current thought trend is that Yahusha will return on what would be the 41st day from His previous departure and 10 days later "take the bride" since it would be an anniversary of the Mt. Sinai nuptuals. The Holy Ruach falling during the Wine Pentecost was not something fulfilled by Yahusha.

This is going to take some study. I'm willing to make observations and post them.
Keep in mind that this is an evolving process of revelation. Plus the numerous roles that Yahusha fills can be confusing especially when still purging my mind from previous indoctrinations that creep out of the recesses.
So,...
I reserve the right to change my mind :lol:

Cindy

chuckbaldwin
Posts: 334
Joined: 21 Oct 2007, 13:44
Location: East Ridge, TN

Postby chuckbaldwin » 04 Jun 2008, 15:10

cindy wrote:When thinking about why Yahusha only stayed 40 days and left I wondered why?
I also wondered why was not the Sivan Pentecost fulfilled in some way.
My current thought trend is that Yahusha will return on what would be the 41st day from His previous departure and 10 days later "take the bride" since it would be an anniversary of the Mt. Sinai nuptuals. The Holy Ruach falling during the Wine Pentecost was not something fulfilled by Yahusha.
Hi Cindy,

My current thinking is along those same lines.

To be truthful, my head is so full of various "thinkings" on various subjects, that right now i'm in a "wait and see" attitude.
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

cindy
Posts: 71
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 07:29

Postby cindy » 05 Jun 2008, 05:32

Chuck,

Yes, I can relate.

Cindy

sarahshalom
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Joined: 25 Feb 2014, 19:57

Re: Whom did/will YHWH & Yahshua 'Marry'?"Response from a fr

Postby sarahshalom » 08 Mar 2014, 13:20

Below are some comments from a friend of mine, also an excellent teacher, in my opinion. Message me if you would like to know who, as I am more than happy to give proper credit. I had questioned regarding the argument about who the church is the bride to... the argument that Yahshua was the original husband... my friend's intelligent response:

Yes, I am very familiar with the argument. I do believe it is a faulty argument that people really have not taken the time to think through all of the problems it carries with it.

1. Yahweh's marriage relationship with Israel is strictly metaphorical. It is certainly not like the marriage I have with my wife. Yahweh didn't ask "Israel's father" for her hand in marriage, etc. We can know this further by looking at passages like Exodus 4:22-23 where Yahweh calls the same people (Israel) His son. So which is it? Is Israel's Yahweh's bride or Yahweh's son? Is Yahweh married to His own son? Ridiculous I know, but these points show that Yahweh's relationship with Israel can be described as both a Father and a Husband because they are metaphorical relationships, not literal ones. Literally, Yahweh is our Creator and we are His creation.

2. The law of Deuteronomy 24 is a law that Yahweh gave for His people Israel to abide by. We should not take that law given for human beings and try to apply it to Yahweh who is spirit. The law is speaking about a man of Israel divorcing a woman of Israel, and then she being allowed to go and be another man's wife. If then this second husband divorces her or dies, she is not allowed to go and marry her former husband. How in the world does this apply to Yahweh? First of all, Yahweh cannot die (I'll get more into that in a second). Secondly, if hypothetically he did die, then to whom does Israel marry? A resurrected Yahweh? How does that follow the law of Deuteronomy 24? The law is talking about the first husband divorcing her, and then she marrying another man who is not her first husband. To apply all of this to a metaphorical relationship that Yahweh has with His people is beyond absurdity.

3. Yahweh is immortal (1 Tim. 6:16). Immortal carries the meaning of "not able to die." Immortality is what Yeshua obtained at his resurrection from the dead, and it is what we are seeking to obtain in the future as well. Now that Yeshua has been resurrected to immortality, is it still possible for him to die? How then can the word immortality even have a meaning to it? To say that Yahweh can die is to say that He is not really immortal. We would then have to say that Yeshua, although immortal, has the possibility of dying, and also that we (when we obtain immortality) will still have the possibility of being able to die. All of this makes the word immortal not really have a meaning at all.

4. I've heard some try to use Romans 7:1-4 in pushing this doctrine of Yahweh having to die to remarry Israel, but look at Romans 7. Paul is talking about a woman being bound to her husband as long as he lives. It's like my wife and I. She is my wife. If she tries to "marry" another man she is an adulteress, but if I die she is free to get married to another man seeing I'm no longer in the picture. Paul uses this as a means to get across his point that we have become dead to the law through the death of Messiah. In other words, the law's penalty had us bound, but through Yeshua's death we are set free to be married (metaphorical here) to him who is raised from the dead. Married here literally carries the idea of "attached to" rather than wedded to, but Paul uses married to go along with the point he just made. There is zero here about Yahweh having to die in order to remarry Israel. In Romans 7 it is us who die to the penalty of the law through the one who died in our place, Yeshua.

5. Some have asked how we can be both the bride of Yahweh and the bride of Yeshua. The answer is simple. Seeing that the relationship is metaphorical and not literal, there is not a problem. In the same way Israel can be Yahweh's son (Ex. 4:22-23) and bride (Ex. 19, etc.) and it not be a problem because these are not literal relationships. It's not like one woman is married to both a man and his son in the natural. That would be adultery. The relationships that Yahweh and Yeshua have with us aren't literal in this sense.


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