"The fear of יהוה is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Set-apart One is understanding"

Does 'evening' mean '(total) dark'?

For the open discussion of all calendar related issues.

Moderator: Watchman555

chuckbaldwin
Posts: 334
Joined: 21 Oct 2007, 13:44
Location: East Ridge, TN

Does 'evening' mean '(total) dark'?

Postby chuckbaldwin » 28 May 2008, 20:17

This question is mainly for Arnold, and just occurred to me.

As i understand it, you believe that "EREB" or "EVENING" always refers to 'dark' or NIGHT. I think you also believe that the "EVENING SACRIFICE" is at 3pm.

How is this possible?
Chuck Baldwin
By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

BrotherArnold
Posts: 327
Joined: 19 Oct 2007, 23:22
Location: Conyers, GA
Contact:

Re: Does 'evening' mean '(total) dark'?

Postby BrotherArnold » 01 Jun 2008, 03:14

chuckbaldwin wrote:This question is mainly for Arnold, and just occurred to me.

As i understand it, you believe that "EREB" or "EVENING" always refers to 'dark' or NIGHT. I think you also believe that the "EVENING SACRIFICE" is at 3pm.

How is this possible?


Shalom Brother Chuck, I believe EVENING originally carried the definition of dark according to Genesis etc. and it always ends a day and as time went on, other terms to describe time were developed in order to be more specific, such as noon, at the going down of the sun, sunrise, sun set, twilight, between the evenings, etc. I believe the EVENING SACRIFICE is referring to BETWEEN the evenings/darks, same as the between the evenings sacrifice of the Passover even though it does not always say BETWEEN THE EVENINGS, it is understood because of the verses that do say it.

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...

Brother Arnold
See www.lunarsabbath.info

chuckbaldwin
Posts: 334
Joined: 21 Oct 2007, 13:44
Location: East Ridge, TN

Re: Does 'evening' mean '(total) dark'?

Postby chuckbaldwin » 01 Jun 2008, 17:35

BrotherArnold wrote:
chuckbaldwin wrote:As i understand it, you believe that "EREB" or "EVENING" always refers to 'dark' or NIGHT. I think you also believe that the "EVENING SACRIFICE" is at 3pm. How is this possible?
Shalom Brother Chuck, I believe EVENING originally carried the definition of dark according to Genesis etc. and it always ends a day and as time went on, other terms to describe time were developed in order to be more specific, such as noon, at the going down of the sun, sunrise, sun set, twilight, between the evenings, etc. I believe the EVENING SACRIFICE is referring to BETWEEN the evenings/darks, same as the between the evenings sacrifice of the Passover even though it does not always say BETWEEN THE EVENINGS, it is understood because of the verses that do say it.
Hi Arnold,

I thought i replied to this earlier; i guess i "Previewed" it and forgot to "submit" it. I've lost several posts because of that. :oops:

Anyway, i appreciate your reply, but it raises a question. If "BTE" means "between the 'darks'", then it simply means "daylight", or ANY TIME during the daylight hours. So i have to wonder, IF you're correct, why YHWH would have to invent such a cryptic expression, when he could've simply said "during the daytime"?

Also, Num.28:4 says that one lamb was offered in the morning, and the 2nd was offered "BTE", thus distinguishing "morning" and "BTE" as 2 distinctly separate times. But according to your definition, "BTE" can include "morning", so that kinda throws a monkey-wrench on your definition.

The only scripture i have found that shows when BTE is, is the "quail story" in Ex.16. If you recall, the quail arrived "at even", and were eaten "BTE". This had to be AFTER the Sabbath was over (because of having to cook them), but BEFORE the manna came the next morning, which absolutely excludes "BTE" from being during the daylight hours.
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

BrotherArnold
Posts: 327
Joined: 19 Oct 2007, 23:22
Location: Conyers, GA
Contact:

Re: Does 'evening' mean '(total) dark'?

Postby BrotherArnold » 01 Jun 2008, 18:34

chuckbaldwin wrote:
BrotherArnold wrote:
chuckbaldwin wrote:As i understand it, you believe that "EREB" or "EVENING" always refers to 'dark' or NIGHT. I think you also believe that the "EVENING SACRIFICE" is at 3pm. How is this possible?
Shalom Brother Chuck, I believe EVENING originally carried the definition of dark according to Genesis etc. and it always ends a day and as time went on, other terms to describe time were developed in order to be more specific, such as noon, at the going down of the sun, sunrise, sun set, twilight, between the evenings, etc. I believe the EVENING SACRIFICE is referring to BETWEEN the evenings/darks, same as the between the evenings sacrifice of the Passover even though it does not always say BETWEEN THE EVENINGS, it is understood because of the verses that do say it.
Hi Arnold,

I thought i replied to this earlier; i guess i "Previewed" it and forgot to "submit" it. I've lost several posts because of that. :oops:

Anyway, i appreciate your reply, but it raises a question. If "BTE" means "between the 'darks'", then it simply means "daylight", or ANY TIME during the daylight hours. So i have to wonder, IF you're correct, why YHWH would have to invent such a cryptic expression, when he could've simply said "during the daytime"?

Also, Num.28:4 says that one lamb was offered in the morning, and the 2nd was offered "BTE", thus distinguishing "morning" and "BTE" as 2 distinctly separate times. But according to your definition, "BTE" can include "morning", so that kinda throws a monkey-wrench on your definition.

The only scripture i have found that shows when BTE is, is the "quail story" in Ex.16. If you recall, the quail arrived "at even", and were eaten "BTE". This had to be AFTER the Sabbath was over (because of having to cook them), but BEFORE the manna came the next morning, which absolutely excludes "BTE" from being during the daylight hours.


RESPONSE; if a 24-hour day ends at evening, then all the time between the evenings, whether day light or dark, is between the evenings. As you correctly stated that there is a between the evenings before sunrise according to ex 16 and there is a between the evenings at the going down of the sun according to Deuteronomy 16. This is why I say that everything is between the evenings but specific term were added to make it clear as to when certain things were to be done. If I believe the day began and ended at sunrise, and I was told to do something BETWEEN THE SUNRISES, it would cover a 24-hour period of time between the sunrise, including dark. If I was trying to be more specific and said, between the sunrises at the going down of the sun, etc, it would work the same way as between the evenings. In other words if it said, between the sunrises, it would also cover the dark period of time but it would not kill the definition of sunrise always being light. Same is true with between the evenings which includes the daylight portion and does not kill the definition of evening always being dark.

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

chuckbaldwin
Posts: 334
Joined: 21 Oct 2007, 13:44
Location: East Ridge, TN

Postby chuckbaldwin » 02 Jun 2008, 17:37

Well, Arnold, since you are now changing your definition, there's no way to discuss it.
If i challenge definition #1, you invoke definition #2, and vice versa. You're not related to John Kerry, are you ("I voted FOR the bill before i voted AGAINST it").

I'll just let the subject rest, until you settle on 1 definition and stick with it.
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

BrotherArnold
Posts: 327
Joined: 19 Oct 2007, 23:22
Location: Conyers, GA
Contact:

Postby BrotherArnold » 03 Jun 2008, 08:08

Shalom Brother Chuck, I have not changed the definition of evening and have no scriptural right to do so. Evening is, has, and always will be dark. The evening/darkness ends the day/light and another 24-hour period begins. It has been this way since creation and will never change. There are specific terms between the evenings/darkness of two days describing certain periods between the two darkness/evenings, such as noon, midnight, sunrise, sunset, etc. but every bit of this belongs between the evenings/darks. I challenge anyone to give a conclusive Scripture that cannot be intelligently argued, where evening does not mean dark. The between the evenings/darks of the sacrifice is merely a term distinguishing it from the morning sacrifice which is also between the evenings.

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

chuckbaldwin
Posts: 334
Joined: 21 Oct 2007, 13:44
Location: East Ridge, TN

Postby chuckbaldwin » 03 Jun 2008, 08:56

BrotherArnold wrote:I have not changed the definition of evening and have no scriptural right to do so. Evening is, has, and always will be dark.
Hi Arnold, I'm not talking about your definition of "evening"; i'm talking about you changing your definition of "BETWEEN the evenings" or Bin Ha Arbayim. I already know your definition of "evening" is all messed up, but for the purpose of this thread, I'M TRYING TO WORK WITH YOUR DEFINITION OF "EVENING", and figure out how you use it to define "Bin Ha Arbayim".

So that goes back to what i said in my 2nd post, posted Sun Jun 01, 2008 12:35 pm. I would ask you to go back an read THAT POST, keeping in mind that i'm using YOUR DEFINITION of "evening".

My conclusion, using YOUR DEFINITION of "evening", is that "Bin Ha Arbayim" means "ANYTIME DURING THE DAYLIGHT", and therefore is AMBIGUOUS, as to any specific time during that period. If you have a more specific definition of "Bin Ha Arbayim", then by all means state it (in simple terms, without a lot of extra "fair speech").
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

BrotherArnold
Posts: 327
Joined: 19 Oct 2007, 23:22
Location: Conyers, GA
Contact:

Postby BrotherArnold » 06 Jun 2008, 11:40

I have not changed the definition of evening and have no scriptural right to do so. Evening is, has, and always will be dark.

Chuck writes, “Hi Arnold, I'm not talking about your definition of "evening"; i'm talking about you changing your definition of "BETWEEN the evenings" or Bin Ha Arbayim.”

RESPONSE; I have not changed my definition of between the evenings. Between the evenings is anywhere in a 24-hour period from one evening to the next. Some things are hidden in simplicity.

You wrote, The other I already know your definition of "evening" is all messed up, but for the purpose of this thread, I'M TRYING TO WORK WITH YOUR DEFINITION OF "EVENING", and figure out how you use it to define "Bin Ha Arbayim".

So that goes back to what i said in my 2nd post, posted Sun Jun 01, 2008 12:35 pm. I would ask you to go back an read THAT POST, keeping in mind that i'm using YOUR DEFINITION of "evening".

My conclusion, using YOUR DEFINITION of "evening", is that "Bin Ha Arbayim" means "ANYTIME DURING THE DAYLIGHT", and therefore is AMBIGUOUS, as to any specific time during that period.

RESPONSE; it would be ambiguous and that is why it says things like BETWEEN THE EVENINGS or at evening AT THE GOING DOWN OF THE SUN and in another place it says BETWEEN THE EVENINGS and both places are referring to the Passover sacrifice. They understood what was being said, depending partly on how it is used in the sentence. Example, Exodus 16 uses the word for BETWEEN THE EVENING “BEFORE” sunrise and when it talks about killing the Passover lamb BETWEEN THE EVENINGS is used at the going down of the sun from its apex according to Deuteronomy, Josephus and Philo. So we see that there is a between the evenings at dark before sunrise and a between the evenings during the day light which confirms my above definition of between the things. I know it seems ambiguous to those with very little understanding of the calendar and I do not hold that against you, I understand that you do not understand.

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

BrotherArnold
Posts: 327
Joined: 19 Oct 2007, 23:22
Location: Conyers, GA
Contact:

Postby BrotherArnold » 06 Jun 2008, 12:55

Shalom Sister Cindy,

Actually it was around 60 days that the proposals was made, instead of 50 because they did not even get to the mount until the 16th day of the third month according to Exodus 19:1 through three. I will explain later why I believe they could not have arrived at the mount any earlier.

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

chuckbaldwin
Posts: 334
Joined: 21 Oct 2007, 13:44
Location: East Ridge, TN

Postby chuckbaldwin » 06 Jun 2008, 14:08

BrotherArnold wrote:RESPONSE; it would be ambiguous and that is why it says things like BETWEEN THE EVENINGS or at evening AT THE GOING DOWN OF THE SUN and in another place it says BETWEEN THE EVENINGS and both places are referring to the Passover sacrifice.
Hi Arnold,

I believe we made a small bit of progress, since we now agree that YOUR definition of "Bin Ha Arbayim" (or "BTE") is ambiguous. Since MY definition is clear & specific, i'll leave it for you to ask the Almighty why He would use a term without meaning to describe such an important event as the Passover.
I know it seems ambiguous to those with very little understanding of the calendar and I do not hold that against you, I understand that you do not understand.
Since you have already admitted it is ambiguous, i'm glad to see you include yourself among those "with very little understanding of the calendar". And thank you for "understanding that i don't understand". I receive the complement, and send it back to you, and i don't hold it against you either.

That concludes this sub-topic, but part of what you quoted above opens the door to another point, which i'll put in a separate post.
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

chuckbaldwin
Posts: 334
Joined: 21 Oct 2007, 13:44
Location: East Ridge, TN

Postby chuckbaldwin » 06 Jun 2008, 14:39

BrotherArnold wrote:... it says ... at evening AT THE GOING DOWN OF THE SUN ... referring to the Passover sacrifice.
Greetings Arnold,

I extracted the above from the previous post, in order to address another facet -- namely, your unyielding definition of "evening". You have issued a challenge for anyone to find a Scripture that says "evening" is anything besides "dark". Well, i must THANK YOU for the above quote, because you have done my work for me. First, here's the verse that your quote comes from:

De 16:6 But at the place which YHWH your Mighty One shall choose to place his name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even**, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt.

**Note: in this verse "at even" is Heb."B'Ereb", NOT "Bin Ha Arbayim", so it must meet the Scriptural definition of "evening".

Now, i think you say that the Passover lamb is sacrificed around 3pm, right?
Also, you adamantly insist that "evening" is "dark", right?
So tell me -- is it "dark" at 3pm? Last time i looked it wasn't.
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

BrotherArnold
Posts: 327
Joined: 19 Oct 2007, 23:22
Location: Conyers, GA
Contact:

Postby BrotherArnold » 06 Jun 2008, 17:31

Now, i think you say that the Passover lamb is sacrificed around 3pm, right?
Also, you adamantly insist that "evening" is "dark", right?
So tell me -- is it "dark" at 3pm? Last time i looked it wasn't


RESPONSE; you missed my point in both your posts. We know the Hebrew word in Deuteronomy is Heb."B'Ereb", NOT "Bin Ha Arbayim", but we also know from other scriptures it uses the word for BETWEEN THE EVENINGS and it is referring to the Passover, or same event, which is killed BETWEEN THE EVENINGS or between the darks, at the going down of the sun and this is a specific time and that is why I said that it would be meaningless and that is why He put these specific terms in there, I guess I did not make myself clear. Once again, I believe between the evenings is between the darks because evening means dark. We have discussed this before and you did not agree then and I doubt you will agree now so I guess we will have to agree to disagree again!

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

chuckbaldwin
Posts: 334
Joined: 21 Oct 2007, 13:44
Location: East Ridge, TN

Postby chuckbaldwin » 06 Jun 2008, 18:44

Well, Arnold, you just used your "switch the question" lifeline, so you can't use it again.
I'm not letting you off the hook until you answer the questions that i actually asked.

We left the discussion of "BTE", which is why i made a separate post, trying to keep it simple, but you complicated it, so i'll repeat: WE ARE NO LONGER TALKING ABOUT "BTE"; we are simply talking about "EVENING", specifically as it appears in Deut.6:6, speaking of the time of the Passover sacrifice.

Please answer the following questions with "YES" or "NO", and skip the "fair speech":

1. Do you believe that the Passover lamb is sacrificed around 3pm?
2. Do you believe the Passover lamb was sacrificed "at even" (B'EREB)? (see Deut.6:6)
3. Do you still insist that "evening" is ALWAYS "dark"?

If you answered "YES" to ALL 3 questions, then by deductive reasoning (LOGIC), it must be "dark" at 3pm. :shock: Since this conclusion is obviously NOT TRUE, then you need to go back and study the Scriptures until you can answer "NO" to at least 1 of the questions. Let me know if you need any help. :!:
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

BrotherArnold
Posts: 327
Joined: 19 Oct 2007, 23:22
Location: Conyers, GA
Contact:

Postby BrotherArnold » 08 Jun 2008, 06:26

Shalom Brother Chuck,

you wrote,

“Please answer the following questions with "YES" or "NO", and skip the "fair speech":

“1. Do you believe that the Passover lamb is sacrificed around 3pm?”

RESPONSE; YES! Between the evenings/darks.


“2. Do you believe the Passover lamb was sacrificed "at even" (B'EREB)? (see Deut. 16 :6)”

RESPONSE; NO! I believe this word, which means dark, should be understood as BETWEEN THE DARKS/evenings as many other Scriptures teaches. See Exodus 12:6 etc.

“3. Do you still insist that "evening" is ALWAYS "dark"?

RESPONSE; YES! Until someone can conclusively show otherwise. Do you have another Scripture that you can use, or is this the ONLY ONE, because we both agree that Deuteronomy 16:6 is referring to BETWEEN THE EVENINGS according to Exodus 12:6?

“If you answered "YES" to ALL 3 questions, then by deductive reasoning (LOGIC), it must be "dark" at 3pm.

RESPONSE; since we both agree that it is not dark at 3 p.m., it is obvious that Deuteronomy 16:6 should be understood as BETWEEN THE EVENINGS even though the word for evening/dark is used.

I challenge you to pinpoint a conclusive EVENING THAT IS NOT referring to “between the evenings” BUT is referring to anything other than dark.
In Genesis one we find the Hebrew word evening which ends day ONE and then again the word evening that ends day TWO. Why would not between the evenings be anywhere between day ONE and day TWO?

I challenge you to find 1 Single Pl. in Scripture that cannot be argued against, where evening means anything other than dark.

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

chuckbaldwin
Posts: 334
Joined: 21 Oct 2007, 13:44
Location: East Ridge, TN

Postby chuckbaldwin » 08 Jun 2008, 08:23

Deleted - double post. Having trouble with response time earlier.
Last edited by chuckbaldwin on 08 Jun 2008, 16:09, edited 1 time in total.
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.


Return to “Calendar Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest

cron