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Pentecost "NOT" In 3rd Month

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cindy
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Postby cindy » 26 Apr 2008, 20:19

It is also interesting that the ancient Israelite people observed Pentecost at the end of the fourth month or first day of the fifth month, same day that Ezra visited Jerusalem according to the Law and it was a new moon day of the fifth month that he was checking to see if Israel was keeping the Law.


Brother Arnold where did you find this information?
I have only found the Sivan 15th Feast of Oaths in Jubilees.

There are numerous articles on JSTOR that I have been unable to access as of yet. I'm curious to see what they might have to say.

What strikes me is how could the Rabbi's miss this?
I mean, the chronology of Exodus is right there in front of you. I can't believe I missed it! :lol:

I have read some of Bede and the Celts. They were observing the Sabbath before the Catholics got there. It would be interesting to find out if it was a Lunar Sabbath they were keeping. Not that it would answer much. WE are trying to get out of Babylon, right?

Cindy

BrotherArnold
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Postby BrotherArnold » 26 Apr 2008, 22:42

Not sure what you are asking but the Septuagint says, in Ezra 7:14, "One has been sent from the king and the seven counselors, to visit Judea and Jerusalem, according to the law of YHWH that is in thine hand.

This could be understood as one of the three major feast/chag days that the children of Israel were to visit Jerusalem three times a year ACCORDING TO THE LAW of YHWH.

New Century Version of Ezra 7:14 seems to go alone with the Septuagint.

"For thou art sent from before the king, and his seven counsellors, to visit Judea and Jerusalem according to the law of thy God, which is in thy hand. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... version=78


Ezra 7:9 teaches Ezra came to Jerusalem on the first day of the fifth month. I find it interesting that this could be the day of Pentecost if they understood Leviticus 23:16 as to number 50 days AFTER the seventh Sabbath complete.

If Ezra was visiting Jerusalem on the new moon day of the fifth month ACCORDING TO THE LAW, this could only be Pentecost. If Ezra, who was a ready scribe in the Law, was going to Jerusalem to see if they were keeping the Law, as some of the following translations suggest, then a feast day such as Pentecost would be a perfect time to pop in on them and see if they were keeping it or not.

The Good News Translation of 7:14

I and my seven advisers are sending you to see how things are going in Judah and Jerusalem. Find out whether the people there are obeying the Law of your God. You have a copy of that law with you.

http://bible.cc/
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...

Brother Arnold
See www.lunarsabbath.info

cindy
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Postby cindy » 27 Apr 2008, 02:47

This discussion harkens back to the Name issue in a way.

Nothing explicit in the NT, but there none-the less.
A Golden Thread woven for those with eyes to see.

Same with the Northern Kingdom/Southern Kingdom restoration.
Another Golden Thread woven.

Now we enter the Sabbath Restoration and Feast Days.

I have a feeling this will help us unravel the timeframe of Revelation so we can get through it, if we are here of course when it comes.
:wink:

Cindy

BrotherArnold
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Postby BrotherArnold » 11 May 2008, 12:10

Shalom All,

Comparing Exodus 23:16 with Leviticus 23:16, we find that the Israelites would have understood exactly what they were to do when they entered the land. They were to enter the land, reap the harvest thereof, count seven Sabbaths, number 50 days, and bring a new meat offering from their labor which they sowed in the field.

They were commanded to do these things including bring a new meat offering from their labor that they sowed in the field and having such a specific command upon them, it would have been unwise to say the least, for them not to have sown the wheat in the first month when they came into the land so they could not only fulfill the command to bring a new meat offering from THEIR LABOR that THEY SOWED in the field but so they would have something to eat. The first offering was to be from the harvest thereof which would have been barley, but the SECOND offering was to be from THEIR LABOR that THEY SOWED in the field. This makes the traditional Pentecost IMPOSSIBLE.
It is impossible to count seven Sabbaths and then number ONE DAY instead of 50 DAYS, and bringing a new meat offering from seeds that they had sown in the first month when they came into the land. This alone proves that Leviticus 23:16 was interpreted by Joshua and the ancient Israelites to number 50 days AFTER the seventh Sabbath.

Even if there was Winter wheat already in the land when they arrived, they could not have scripturally used it because the specific instructions of the firstfruits were clearly to be FROM THEIR LABOR that THEY SOWED IN THE FIELD and if they sowed the wheat in the first month when they came into the land they could have counted seven Sabbaths complete, then number 50 days, and then they could have brought a new meat offering from their labor that they sowed in the field because it would have time to ripen. But as I said before, it is agriculturally impossible for them to have had a new meat offering in 50 days from their labor which they sowed in the field. Nature will not allow it because it takes TWICE that long. Remember they are TWO wheat harvests in the world today, including Israel, and if Israel planted Summer wheat back then as they do today, why even discount the idea that this was the wheat that Joshua and them brought the new meat offering from??? Except for traditions of men.

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

cindy
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Postby cindy » 13 May 2008, 02:08

Shabbat Shalom Everyone,

In my continued quest for more information about Pentecost I ran across this....

http://web.archive.org/web/200102121340 ... e2.htm#top

It was written by James Dwyer who has written other articles used by the Lunar Sabbath folks.

Take a read and we can talk about it.

He discusses the 7 week and a day cycle as a continuing event with a Festival associated with it.
This would give us a Pentecost at Shavuot and Av 1 roughly.

Very interesting.

In Yahshua,
Cindy

BrotherArnold
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Postby BrotherArnold » 13 May 2008, 05:25

John 4:35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest
Further along in the book of Yochanon John 12: 24- says:

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abides alone: but if it die, it brings forth much fruit.

The Messiah likens himself as a corn of wheat which dies and brings forth fruit.
Ever wonder why He waited until Pentecost which is the first fruits of wheat harvest, to pour out the fruit of the Holy Spirit? Why did he wait 50 days or 100 days after death to point out the fruit of the Spirit? Why not the third day when he resurrected or even the next day after his crucifixion, or even the same day he died etc. remember he said when the corn of wheat dies it brings forth fruit, so why not fruit the next day or that day etc.?

Why wait until 50 days or 100 days, depending on whether you believe a third month or fourth month Pentecost? Could it be that it takes some time from the time a corn of wheat is planted/dies, until a first fruit harvest can be had, in order for it to be a true analysis?

He speaks of himself as a spiritual seed of wheat that will die and bring forth a spiritual fruit of the Holy Spirit and as the natural seed takes four months to harvest so does the spiritual seed, or else it would not be true analogy. He does not speak against nature and there is no way to have a first fruit in 50 days from planting or in the third month.

If he had typed himself as winter wheat and had died in the seventh month when winter wheat is planted, then there could have been a third month first fruit and it would have been a true analysis of winter wheat which dies in the seventh month but this was not the case because he died in the first month and therefore typed himself as a corn of spring wheat which brings forth a harvest in the summertime four months later when the Holy Spirit was poured out on the true day of Pentecost. This is why the first fruit of the Holy Spirit was delayed until the proper time it would take the corn of wheat to die and produce fruit four months later instead of two. Do you ever know of Him making an UNTRUE analogy?

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

cindy
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Postby cindy » 13 May 2008, 11:46

Brother Arnold and All,

There is a treasure trove of info in that article I just posted.

The Dead Sea Scrolls, Temple Scrolls, detail three -50th day festivals.
The first being the grain, next wine (Acts 2-"they must be full of New Wine"), and then oil.

That would put us on Av 1 for the New Wine 50th day Pentecost, not the New Grain 50th day Pentecost.

Also, just to throw a curve into this. I have been under the impression our Lord and Savior Yahusha was born in 3 BCE on Sept 11th which would correspond to Tishri 1 that year (same day old Adam was born-jewish tradition).
Now the Sept 11, 2001 attacks which 3000 lives were lost (remember the 3000 lost/saved at Pentecost) falls dangerously close to the third Pentecost of New Oil. It actually was on the waning quarter moon of Elul a week before Tishri 1.
I'm not sure if this was a Pentecost or not, but the Birthdate of our Messiah was determined long before 2001 for that matter so this event was not some out-of-the-blue attack by raving Muslims.

Anyway hope some of you have time to read James book chapter.

Cindy

chosen
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Postby chosen » 14 May 2008, 05:30

i don't think you can just match up the dates of 9/11 in our time, and 9/11 in the time of our Master and Messiah's birth. there have been changes in how we reckon the calendar. the julian and gregorian calendars do not correspond.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_calendar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_calendar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Style_ ... tyle_dates

shalom,

chosen

cindy
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Postby cindy » 14 May 2008, 05:37

Yes, you are right Chosen about calendars changing.

But, the moon doesn't and neither do the constellations.

The Sept 11, 3 Bce was arrived at by using Revelation 12 as an astronomy guide to the birth of our Savior.

http://www.askelm.com/star/index.asp

This gives alot of detail and well documented.

In Yahshua,
Cindy

BrotherArnold
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Postby BrotherArnold » 14 May 2008, 18:55

cindy wrote:Brother Arnold and All,

There is a treasure trove of info in that article I just posted.

The Dead Sea Scrolls, Temple Scrolls, detail three -50th day festivals.
The first being the grain, next wine (Acts 2-"they must be full of New Wine"), and then oil.

That would put us on Av 1 for the New Wine 50th day Pentecost, not the New Grain 50th day Pentecost.

Also, just to throw a curve into this. I have been under the impression our Lord and Savior Yahusha was born in 3 BCE on Sept 11th which would correspond to Tishri 1 that year (same day old Adam was born-jewish tradition).
Now the Sept 11, 2001 attacks which 3000 lives were lost (remember the 3000 lost/saved at Pentecost) falls dangerously close to the third Pentecost of New Oil. It actually was on the waning quarter moon of Elul a week before Tishri 1.
I'm not sure if this was a Pentecost or not, but the Birthdate of our Messiah was determined long before 2001 for that matter so this event was not some out-of-the-blue attack by raving Muslims.

Anyway hope some of you have time to read James book chapter.

Cindy


Shalom Sister Cindy,

You Wrote,

There is a treasure trove of info in that article I just posted.

The Dead Sea Scrolls, Temple Scrolls, detail three -50th day festivals.

RESPONSE; I agree, but the information supports a later Pentecost.

You wrote,

The first being the grain, next wine (Acts 2-"they must be full of New Wine"), and then oil.

That would put us on Av 1 for the New Wine 50th day Pentecost, not the New Grain 50th day Pentecost.

RESPONSE; I agree that if you are counting the new wine offering of the early Grape vintage around the middle or end of July but you must remember the major Grape harvest is in September and to determine which harvest they are speaking of is easy because of the pinpointed harvests. We know they cannot be speaking of the first fruits of the grape harvest of AV 1 BECAUSE the grapes are not ripe until about the middle of the fourth month but that is not the main reason. The most conclusive reason they are referring to the major grape harvest in September is because if you number 50 more days for the oil harvest, from AV 1/July 1, it will bring you to August the 9th and there would be no new oil offering to offer because the Olive harvest is in October and November not August.

Now If you interpret the Scrolls and Leviticus 23:16 to count 50 days after the seventh Sabbath, it would bring you to the end of July/Pentecost and early vintage and if you number 50 days from there instead of AV 1, it will put you in September for the major grape harvest first fruit offering and then when you count 50 days from there, it will put you in October and November for a first fruit of the oil harvest, just as they Scrolls teaches. Here is a web site that gives the months of the harvest in ancient Israel. http://www.wcg.org/lit/law/festivals/harvest.htm

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

cindy
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Postby cindy » 16 May 2008, 02:29

Just a note for those who are following this thread, the "Joel and Pentecost" thread has some very
pertinent information as well.

Cindy

chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 16 May 2008, 13:11

Here's additional info relating to when did Israel arrive at Mt. Sinai?

Jasher 82:6 states that YHWH gave the 10 Commandments to Israel on the 6th day of the 3rd month. Pretty neat trick if they didn't even arrive til the 15th, as some claim.

This is also consistent with Jubilees, which states that Moses went up the mountain to receive the tables of stone on the 16th day of the 3rd month.
Chuck Baldwin
By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

BrotherArnold
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Postby BrotherArnold » 17 May 2008, 03:34

Shalom Brother Chuck,

You wrote,

Here's additional info relating to when did Israel arrive at Mt. Sinai?

Jasher 82:6 states that YHWH gave the 10 Commandments to Israel on the 6th day of the 3rd month. Pretty neat trick if they didn't even arrive til the 15th, as some claim.

This is also consistent with Jubilees, which states that Moses went up the mountain to receive the tables of stone on the 16th day of the 3rd month.

RESPONSE; the book of Jubilees also records that they did not even get to the Mount until the 16th day of the third month, which would also be a neat trick. It says,

“They came to the Mount on the 16th day of the third month.” Jubilees Chapter 1:1

I believe we can harmonize jubilees with Scripture. I can also show where they were still camped at Rephidim fighting with Amalek around the first of the third month and could not have reached the Mount for the traditional Pentecost if anyone is interested, but for now I will show how to harmonize jubilees with Scripture.


The following chart shows that if you count seven lunar Sabbaths complete (which do not include New Moon days when counting out the weeks) unto the morrow "after" the seventh Sabbath and then number 50 days, it will be the exact same day that Aaron, YHWH'S high priest, proclaims a Chag to YHWH, and this is no coincidence.

"1st Month"
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8th [Sabbath]
9 10 11 12 13 14th [the Lamb slain between the evenings]
15th [Sabbath and 1st day of feast of Unleavened Bread and day Houses Passed over in Egypt and thrust out of Rameses Num-33:3]
16th [is wave sheaf and "beginning" of count for the "7 sabaths" complete]
17 18 19 20 21 22nd [1st Sabbath]
23 24 25 26 27 28 29th [2nd Sabbath] 30
----------------------------------------
"2nd Month "
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8th [3rd Sabbath]
9 10 11 12 13 14 15th [4th Sabbath]
16th [1st day of manna (Ex-16:1-29)]
17 18 19 20 21 22nd [5th Sabbath]
23 24 2526 27 28 29th [6th Sabbath]
-----------------------------------------

" 3rd Month"
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8th [7th Sabbath complete]
9th [day is the "first day" "AFTER" 7th Sabbath and the 1st day of the SECOND count where you are to NUMBER 50 days and then bring a new meat offering to YHWH. Lev-23:15-16]
10th is 2nd day, 11/3rd , 12/4th, 13/5th, 14/6th, 15 [is Sabbath and 7th day of the count]
16/8th [day of the count to Pentecost and day they came to the Mount (Ex-19:1-3) see also The Book Of Jubilees Ch. 1:1 they were also told on 16th to be ready for 3rd day Ex-19:11]
17/9th, 18/10th [day of count and it was also the 3rd day when YHWH spoke to people (Ex-19:10-24)]
19/11th [day of count and also 1st day that Moses goes Into Mt. for 40 days and 40 nights. Ex-24:4-18]
20/12th [day of count and 2nd day Moses in Mt.]
21/13th, 22 [Sabbath and 14th day of count]
23/15th, 24/16th, 25/17th, 26/18th, 27/19th, 28/20th 29th [Sabbath and 21st day of the count to Pentecost]
a 30 day month would make it the 22nd day of the count to Pentecost.
-------------------------------------------
"4th Month"
1/23rd, 2/24th, 3/25th, 4/26th, 5/27th, 6/28th, 7/29th, 8th/30th [Sabbath]
9/31st, 10th/32nd, 11/33rd, 12/34th, 13/345th, 14/36th, 15th [Sabbath and 37th day of count to Pentecost]
16/38th, 17/39th, 18/40th, 19/41st, 20/42nd, 21/43rd, 22/44th Sabbath]
23/45th, 24/46th, 25/47th, 26/48th, 27/49th, 28th/50th.
You have now numbered 50 days and the new meat offering is brought on the 29th of the fourth month which was Pentecost that particular year.
------------------------------------------
The beginning of the 29th was the 40th NIGHT of Moses' stay in the Mount and the 29th morning is the day that the Law and tables of stone was ACTUALLY given to Moses (Ex-31:18 and Deut- 9:11). This puts us exactly 102 days after the Passover, which is the same time Aarons declared the chag of Pentecost.
As YHWH promised in Ex-24:12 which was "AFTER" the 50th day was numbered. It was the day the Law was actually given, and the only way to commemorate this monumental event on the same day is to follow the instructions that were given by YHWH, not by the traditions of man.
You have seven weeks (six workdays plus a Sabbath which equals forty-nine days). Then, you have fifty days from the morrow after the seventh Sabbath, a total of ninety-nine. That total plus three New moon days, worship days that are not counted as one of the six ordinary workdays or weekly Sabbaths totals 102 days.
One objection to the number of days in this count has to do with the meaning of Pentecost. Since Pentecost means "fifty", this provides proof positive to some as to the traditional third month count. However, the meaning of "fifty" is securely preserved in the count revealed above.
To count seven Sabbaths is part one of the instruction. In the tradition count the second part of the instruction would be to count "one" more day. Just remember "one" does not mean Pentecost, but fifty means Pentecost. The road to Pentecost is "50 days" after the seventh Sabbath, not "one" day.

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

cindy
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Postby cindy » 17 May 2008, 06:14

I believe the term "week of weeks plus a day" was used to give latitude to the growing year and the development of crops.
Plus the Wave Sheaf was supposed to happen after a Sabbath. It never specified what Sabbath.


I read in the DSS the scroll writers waited until the 26th of Nisan to Wave the barley.
The Pharisees waved it on the 16th and the Saducees wanted to wave it on the 23rd.

This was argued even in the First Century.

I believe the 16th is the correct Wave Sheaf date because of the Resurrection and all dates after that are the correct ones for NOW. Yahusha mentioned the Pharisees AT THAT TIME sit in the seat of Moses. I don't think they do now, but then they did.
A week of weeks plus a day.

There is still much we do not understand totally.
I believe we are getting closer all the time though.

Cindy

BrotherArnold
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Postby BrotherArnold » 17 May 2008, 10:17

I read in the DSS the scroll writers waited until the 26th of Nisan to Wave the barley.
The Pharisees waved it on the 16th and the Saducees wanted to wave it on the 23rd.

RESPONSE; shalom Sister Cindy, what scroll was this in?

Brother Arnold
Last edited by BrotherArnold on 17 May 2008, 16:38, edited 1 time in total.
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info


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