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Sign of Jonah/passover lamb

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kathybyers2000
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Sign of Jonah/passover lamb

Postby kathybyers2000 » 31 Jan 2008, 15:44

This is my own understanding - if you understand differently please do not take a personal offense. But when I had just begun to reckon sabbath by the moon, this was one of those questions that I had. As a christian and then as a messianic I was shown to interpret the phrase "in the heart of the earth" as "in the grave". Which makes perfect physical sense. However, I am being constantly moved in to the spiritual understanding of all matter. So, that being stated, please allow me to share how YHWH lead me to understand this phrase on a spiritual level.

The evil and adulterous nation asks for a sign that he IS the Messiah, due to their lack of faith, and Yahushua delivers this to them

Mat 12:38 ¶ Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

So, the unbelieving were given their sign. They just had to wait for Yahushua to be gone from their physical sight for three days and three nights and then reappear in order to know that he IS Messiah - or did they :?

Later in the book of Matthew we see that Yahushua was meeting with his followers and stated the following:

Mat 26:1 ¶ And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, he said unto his disciples,
Mat 26:2 Ye know that after two days is [the feast of] the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.

So, Yahushua knows his fate. He has proclaimed his fate out loud and it is the twelfth of the moon of Abib.

But then, something strange in the recording of Matthew - the Word FLASHES to what the chief priests and elders are doing - see the following:

Mat 26:3 Then assembled together the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders of the people, unto the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas,
Mat 26:4 And consulted that they might take Jesus by subtilty, and kill [him].
Mat 26:5 But they said, Not on the feast [day], lest there be an uproar among the people.

Okay, that was WIERD! Why did the story just flash like that? What else does Yahushua have to say about it?

Then, the answer came to me - NOTHING! He is the living word - he need not say anymore. He has chosen to place himself and his fate in the hearts of those who rule the land (aka - the earth) in that moment. We see the witness of it by the sudden change in setting that Matthew recorded.

So the count begins on the 12th day, then the 12th night, then the 13th day, then the 13th night, then the 14th day, then the 14th night and he rises before the morning on the fifteenth - why? I asked

And YHWH took me to this scripture:

Num 9:12 They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances of the passover they shall keep it.

If I am going to proclaim that Yahushua is the passover lamb, I must agree that none of him could remain until morning on the fifteenth. Therefore, I now understand that spiritually he was in the heart of the earth (where he placed himself through the spoken word) for three days and three nights on the 12th, 13th, and 14th.

Just a portion of what YHWH has walked me through. If anybody would like, I am very happy to share more on this topic. YHWH has given me harmony in my heart through His word on this matter so that I can rest in Him trusting that His word is true and remains true in all aspects. And I can also trust that Yahushua fulfilled the role of the passover lamb. (staked, his organs remained, roasted by fire =judged, no bones broken, gone before the fifteenth morning)

Shalom,

Kathy

wstruse
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Postby wstruse » 31 Jan 2008, 18:54

Hello Kathy,

Here is how I see the Passover week of Yashua.

Regards,
Wstruse

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kathybyers2000
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Passover lamb

Postby kathybyers2000 » 31 Jan 2008, 22:32

Shalom Wstruse.

I used to share your understanding.

Can I ask you, do you believe that Yahushua is the passover lamb?

Shalom,

Kathy

chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 31 Jan 2008, 22:40

Hi Kathy,

Thanks for the explanation. i'll refrain from arguing,
and just say that i understand it differently,
using a different Scripture to interpret the meaning.

Hi William,

One puzzling thing stood out in your chart.
It shows the 15th being the preparation day,
and the 16th being the High Sabbath. How can this be?
Chuck Baldwin
By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

wstruse
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Joined: 21 Jan 2008, 04:01

Postby wstruse » 01 Feb 2008, 00:09

Hello Kathy,

I believe what John said: "29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. John 1:29 - If you are asking me if Yashua was killed on the 14th when the Passover lambs were slain I would say no. The balance of the evidence clearly shows that Yashua eat the Passover with His disciples. I believe that Yashua was killed on the "Feast Day". The 14th is not the feast day. The 15th is the Feast Day. In order to believe that Yashua was killed on the 14th we have to invent another type of "Passover". We also have to believe that Yashua fulfilled the "Shadows"? on a day other than a Feast day.

I ask you to consider the following in a 52 week year there are 1091 lambs sacrificed. (1091 = 182nd prime = 13x14) Yashua obviously could not have been sacrificed 1091 times. The sacrifices for sin atonement were not preformed on the 14th. It was on the 15th that the atonement sacrifices were preformed. I believe that Yashua in order to fulfill the "Law”? had to be slain at a time when the atonement sacrifices were preformed. I hope that better clarifies my perspective.

Warm regards,
Wstruse

wstruse
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Postby wstruse » 01 Feb 2008, 00:55

Hello Chuck,

Good to talk to you again. I have a friendly challenge for you. Find me one place in the Scripture were the Passover or the Feast of Unleavened Bread is called a Sabbath or a Sabbathownn (7676 or 7677). I can not find one place where this feast is called a Sabbath. Yes "Servile work" is prohibited but it is still not called a Sabbath. As you know there is specific exceptions in the feast concerning things which have to do with food preparation.

Now I ask you how can the Passover or Unleavened bread be considered a "High Sabbath" if it is never called a Sabbath in the Scripture? On the other hand a Sabbath that fell during the Passover Feast would likely be called a "High Sabbath".

7677 !AtB\'v; shabbathown {shab-baw-thone\'}
Meaning: 1) Sabbath observance, sabbatism 1a) of weekly sabbath 1b) day of atonement 1c) sabbatical year 1d) of Feast of Trumpets 1e) of the 1st and last days of the Feast of Tabernacles
Origin: from 07676; TWOT - 2323d; n m
Usage: AV - rest 8, sabbath 3, 11
Exod 16:23; 31:15; 35:2; Lev 16:31; 23:3, 24, 32, 39; 25:4f

676 tB\'v; shabbath {shab-bawth\'}
Meaning: 1) Sabbath 1a) sabbath 1b) day of atonement 1c) sabbath year 1d) week 1e) produce (in sabbath year)
Origin: intensive from 07673; TWOT - 2323b; n f/m
Usage: AV - sabbath 107, another 1; 108

Exod 16:23, 25f, 29; 20:8, 10f; 31:13ff; 35:2f; Lev 16:31; 19:3, 30; 23:3, 11, 15f, 32, 38; 24:8; 25:2, 4, 6, 8; 26:2, 34f, 43; Num 15:32; 28:9f; Deut 5:12, 14f; 2 Kgs 4:23; 11:5, 7, 9; 16:18; 1 Chr 9:32; 23:31; 2 Chr 2:4; 8:13; 23:4, 8; 31:3; 36:21; Neh 9:14; 10:31, 33; 13:15ff, 21f; Ps 92:1; Isa 1:13; 56:2, 4, 6; 58:13; 66:23; Jer 17:21f, 24, 27; Lam 2:6; Ezek 20:12f, 16, 20f, 24; 22:8, 26; 23:38; 44:24; 45:17; 46:1, 3f, 12; Hos 2:11; Amos 8:5



Now concerning the "Preparation day" most of the following verses specify that it proceeds a "Sabbath".

John 19:30-33 30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. 31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. 32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. 33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:



Luke 23:50-56 50 And, behold, there was a man named Joseph, a counsellor; and he was a good man, and a just: 51 (The same had not consented to the counsel and deed of them;) he was of Arimathaea, a city of the Jews: who also himself waited for the kingdom of God. 52 This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. 53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid. 54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on. 55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid. 56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.


Antiquities of the Jews 16:162-163 162 ``Caesar Augustus, high priest and tribune of the people, ordains thus:--Since the nation of the Jews has been found grateful to the Roman people, not only at this time, but in time past also, and chiefly Hyrcanus the high priest, under my father, {a} Caesar the emperor, 163 it seemed good to me and my counsellors, according to the sentence and oath of the people of Rome, that the Jews have liberty to make use of their own customs, according to the law of their forefathers, as they made use of them under Hyrcanus the high priest of the Almighty God; and that their sacred money be not touched, but be sent to Jerusalem, and that it be committed to the care of the receivers at Jerusalem; and that they be not obliged to go before any judge on the Sabbath day, nor on the day of the preparation to it, after the ninth hour,

Mark 15:42-47
42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,

John 19:41-42 41 Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid. 42 There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews\' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.

John 19:12-16 12 And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar. 13 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha. 14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

Warm Regards,

JMSchattke
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Postby JMSchattke » 01 Feb 2008, 02:11

<sigh>
Technically, not "sabbaths" - but commanded to do the same thing as on a sabbath: lo malakah, no work.

Technically, he's correct.
Lev 23:1 And the LORD3068 spoke1696 unto413 Moses,4872 saying,559
Lev 23:2 Speak1696 unto413 the children1121 of Israel,3478 and say559 unto413 them, Concerning the feasts4150 of יהוה3068 , which834, (853) ye shall proclaim7121 to be holy6944 convocations,4744 even these428 are my feasts.4150

Lev 23:5 In the fourteenth702, 6240 day of the first7223 month2320 at996 even6153 is יהוה 's3068 passover.6453
Lev 23:6 And on the fifteenth2568, 6240 day3117 of the same2088 month2320 is the feast2282 of unleavened bread4682 unto יהוה 3068 seven7651 days3117 ye must eat398 unleavened bread.4682
Lev 23:7 In the first7223 day3117 ye shall have1961 a holy6944 convocation:4744 ye shall do6213 no3808, 3605 servile5656 work4399 therein.
Lev 23:8 But ye shall offer7126 an offering made by fire801 unto יהוה 3068 seven7651 days:3117 in the seventh7637 day3117 is a holy6944 convocation:4744 ye shall do6213 no3808, 3605 servile5656 work4399 therein.


Num 28:16 And in the fourteenth702, 6240 day3117 of the first7223 month2320 is the passover6453 of יהוה 3068.
Num 28:17 And in the fifteenth2568, 6240 day3117 of this2088 month2320 is the feast:2282 seven7651 days3117 shall unleavened bread4682 be eaten.398
Num 28:18 In the first7223 day3117 shall be a holy6944 convocation;4744 ye shall do6213 no manner3808, 3605 of servile5656 work4399 therein:
... (sacrifices described) ...
Num 28:25 And on the seventh7637 day3117 ye shall have1961 a holy6944 convocation;4744 ye shall do6213 no3808, 3605 servile5656 work.4399

Deu 16:8 Six8337 days3117 thou shalt eat398 unleavened bread:4682 and on the seventh7637 day3117 shall be a solemn assembly6116 toיהוה 3068 thy God:430 thou shalt do6213 no3808 work4399 therein.
Wandering Kernel of Happiness

chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 01 Feb 2008, 04:13

Hi William,

You're correct that the "holy convocation" days of Abib 15 & 21 aren't
explicitly referred to as Sabbaths or Sabbatons. But it seems that your
entire chronology is different from anything i've ever seen.

One big objection that i and others would have is that Yahshua was
killed on the 15th instead of the 14th, according to your chart.

I think i'll wait and see what others may comment.

p.s. your large graphic is making us have to scroll every line back &
forth. I wonder if there's a link you could post instead of copying the
entire graphc chart.
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

wstruse
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Postby wstruse » 04 Feb 2008, 06:16

Hello Chuck,

If you will tell me your computer resolution I will resize the .gif to fit your screen. On my web browser it only fills half my screen.

On your objection concerning the 15th Chuck, why don't you believe he was crucified on the Feast Day?

Regards,

Wstruse

BrotherArnold
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Postby BrotherArnold » 04 Feb 2008, 13:35

Hello Chuck,

Good to talk to you again. I have a friendly challenge for you. Find me one place
in the Scripture where the Passover or the Feast of Unleavened Bread is called a
Sabbath or a Sabbathownn (7676 or 7677). I can not find one place where this feast
is called a Sabbath. Yes "Servile work" is prohibited but it is still not called a Sabbath.
As you know there is specific exceptions in the feast concerning things which have to
do with food preparation.

Now I ask you how can the Passover or Unleavened bread be considered a "High Sabbath"
if it is never called a Sabbath
in the Scripture? On the other hand a Sabbath that fell during
the Passover Feast would likely be called a "High Sabbath".
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...

Brother Arnold
See www.lunarsabbath.info

JMSchattke
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Postby JMSchattke » 04 Feb 2008, 22:28

(TS98) Joh 19:31 Therefore, since it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the stake on the Sabbath - for that Sabbath was a high one - the Yehuḏim asked Pilate to have their legs broken, and that they be taken away.
Wandering Kernel of Happiness

chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 04 Feb 2008, 22:46

wstruse wrote:Hello Chuck,

If you will tell me your computer resolution I will resize the .gif to fit your screen. On my web browser it only fills half my screen.
Hi William,

If i'm looking at the right info, it is 600x800 pixels.
On your objection concerning the 15th Chuck, why don't you believe he was crucified on the Feast Day?

Since He was our Passover Lamb (1Cor.5:7), it stands to reason that He would be killed on the same day as the physical Passover lambs - the 14th.
p.s. The right extremity of my screen is here ---------------------------------------------------------->
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

chuckbaldwin
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Additional thoughts on Jonah

Postby chuckbaldwin » 07 May 2008, 03:26

Greetings all,

Just last week, i noticed a verse - Jonah 2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O YHWH my Almighty.

I was amazed how many words in this verse applied directly to Yahshua's time in the Grave ("Sheol" - verse 2); the last 2 i only noticed just now:

1. Mountains - Yahshua was buried in a rock-hewn tomb in the side of a small mountain.
2. Earth - Yahshua was buried in the earth, while Jonah was "buried" in the sea, so this only applies symbolically to Jonah, but literally to Yahshua.
3. Bars - the human rib cage is like "bars" surrounding the heart; the "bars" of "earth" surrounded Yahshua while He was in the "heart of the earth".
4. Brought up - Resurrection!
5. Corruption - occurs after death, NOT while in custody.

This additional information serves to strengthen my belief that the "sign of Jonah" refers to Yahshua's 3 days + 3 nights in the tomb.
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

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Watchman555
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Postby Watchman555 » 07 May 2008, 11:00

Shalom Chuck and Everyone~

I see you resurrected an older post. :) Also noticed a little discussion going on over at the 'other forum'. Thought I would throw in something to think about. One question we could ask ourself is,

"Was Yahusha a voluntary offering?"


John 10:17-18:
17 "Because of this the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life, in order to receive it again. 18 "No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to receive it again. This command I have received from My Father.

Now it seems if He was a voluntary offering that it would be in compliance with Scripture. So here's the Scriptures concerning the voluntary offering.

Lev. 7:16-21:
16 "And if the offering he brings is a vow or a voluntary offering, it is eaten the same day that he brings his slaughtering, and what is left of it is eaten the next day, 17 but whatever is left of the flesh of the slaughtering on the third day is burned with fire. 18 “˜However, if any of the flesh of his peace offering is eaten at all on the third day, it is not accepted. It is not reckoned to him who brings it, it is unclean to him, and the being who eats of it bears his crookedness. 19 "And the flesh that touches that which is unclean is not eaten, it is burned with fire. And as for the clean flesh, all who are clean eat of it. 20 ‘But the being who eats the flesh of the peace offering that belongs to Yahuah, while he is unclean, that being shall be cut off from his people. 21 "And when a being who touches that which is unclean, of the uncleanness of man, or of the uncleanness of beast, or of any unclean swarming creature, and shall eat the flesh of the peace offering that belongs to Yahuah, that being shall be cut off from his people.'

Now, it seems if He spent a literal three full days and three full nights in the grave, begin offered up to the Father at the very end of the third day (or 72 hours in the grave) according to Scripture, is He to be accepted? Seems like a quandry. Maybe we could discuss the implications of the law concerning the voluntary offering in conjunction with the three full day/three full night verses being risen versus the rising in the third day understanding.

Also concerning the post on the \'other forum\' I personally do not see the view of Yahusha performing the Passover as required by Scripture. Even if it was the 13th going into the 14th understanding, when we compare what Yahusha and the emmisaries actually did versus the commands in Scripture, we find that many many of the commands were broken. Let me explain and I'll use a portion of the e-mail that I sent GregO concerning it:



"i think that the issue can be cleared up very easily by comparing the commands concerning the Passover and what took place on the evening/night of the Last Supper. When we carefully compare these we would find that if this Last Supper took place at the time that it is commanded Scripturally, then we would find that the Messiah allowed almost every command concerning the Passover to be broken. I hope this helps.

The command:

Exo 12:8, 11-13:

"And they shall eat the flesh on that night, roasted in fire " with unleavened bread and with bitter herbs they shall eat it. "And this is how you eat it: your loins girded, your sandals on your feet, and your staff in your hand. And you shall eat it in haste. It is the Passover of Yahuah. "And I shall pass through the land of Mitsrayim on that night, and shall smite all the first-born in the land of Mitsrayim, both man and beast. And on all the mighty ones of Mitsrayim I shall execute judgment. I am Yahuah. "And the blood shall be a sign for you on the houses where you are. And when I see the blood, I shall pass over you, and let the plague not come on you to destroy you when I smite the land of Mitsrayim.

Deu 16:7:
"And you shall roast and eat it in the place which Yahuah your Elohim chooses, and in the morning you shall turn and go to your tents.

The Passover is to be eaten:
1) With unleavened bread
2) Loins girded
3) Sandals on your feet
4) Staff in your hand
5) In haste
6) Stay inside and in the morning return to your tents

Joh 13:1-5:

And before the Festival of the Passover, Yahusha knowing that His hour had come that He should move out of this world unto the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end. And supper taking place, the devil having already put it into the heart of Yehudah from Qerioth, son of Shimʽon, to deliver Him up, Yahusha, knowing that the Father had given all into His hands, and that He had come from Elohim and was going to Elohim, rose from supper and laid aside His garments, and having taken a towel, He girded Himself. After that He put water into a basin and began to wash the feet of the taught ones, and to wipe them with the towel with which He was girded.

Joh 13:27, 30:

And after the piece of bread, Satan entered into him. Yahusha; therefore, said to him, "What you do, do quickly. So, having received the piece of bread, he then went out straightaway, and it was night.

Joh 18:1:

Having said these words, Yahusha went out with His taught ones beyond the Qiḏron torrent, where there was a garden, into which He and His taught ones entered.

What Yahusha did:
1) According to the Scriptures the bread that they ate was most-likely leavened, because Scripture does not use the word that means "Unleavened bread"?.
2) Rose from supper " He was reclining, relaxed.
3) Laid aside His garments " ungirded Himself.
4) Began to wash His taught ones" feet " either they or He removed their sandals (if they weren't already off).
5) Obviously He wasn't holding a staff.
6) Sent Yahudah outside at night.
7) The rest went outside. ""


One thing we might consider also - we are supposed to keep the Passover at the appointed time; which according to Scripture kill it in the evening, eat it that night. Now if Yahusha was keeping the correct timing to eat the Passover, then we would find the Jews and the common understanding of eating it on the 15th to be incorrect.

It is more understandable for me to say the Passover that Yahusha was referring to, "i desire to eat this Passover with you" was not referring to the physical Passover, but the shadow of that Passover. In other words, when Yahusha said, "i desire to eat this Passover with you" He was referring to Himself.

~Greg


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yahuahreigns
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Postby yahuahreigns » 09 May 2008, 05:09

(Originally posted by chuckbaldwin)

Watchman555 wrote:I see you resurrected an older post.
Only because i noticed new information that i hadn't noticed or presented before.
Also noticed a little discussion going on over at the 'other forum'. Thought I would throw in something to think about. One question we could ask ourself is, "Was Yahusha a voluntary offering?"

Now it seems if He was a voluntary offering that it would be in compliance with Scripture. So here's the Scriptures concerning the voluntary offering.
I'm not addressing this part specifically, but i think my comments on the Passover instructions generally apply to the "voluntary offering" as well...
Also concerning the post on the 'other forum' I personally do not see the view of Yahusha performing the Passover as required by Scripture. Even if it was the 13th going into the 14th understanding, when we compare what Yahusha and the emmisaries actually did versus the commands in Scripture, we find that many many of the commands were broken.
It should be evident that "types" or "shadows" don't always show every detail of the "reality"; in fact they may even have extra details that have nothing to do with the "reality". In reference to the ORIGINAL Passover instructions, i would ask, how many instructions were specific to that 1-time event, with the 'death angel' coming to destroy the 1stborn, followed by leaving Egypt the next day?

Below i will put your objections with the original instructions and give my perspective on each (the numbers don't necessarily match, and in a couple cases, i'm not even sure if the objection matches the instruction):

1) With unleavened bread
1) According to the Scriptures the bread that they ate was most-likely leavened, because Scripture does not use the word that means “unleavened bread”.

The Greek word for the "bread" that they ate at the 'last supper' was the same Greek word for the "bread" that they ate in Luke 24:30, which was still during the days of Unleavened Bread.

2) Loins girded
3) Laid aside His garments – ungirded Himself.

Gimme a break! I don't believe that Yahshua was stark naked when He washed their feet.

3) Sandals on your feet
4) Began to wash His [disciples'] feet – either they or He removed their sandals (if they weren’t already off).

This instruction was specific to the original event, since they were about to embark on a journey

4) Staff in your hand
5) Obviously He wasn’t holding a staff.

Same comment as previous.

5) In haste
2) Rose from supper – He was reclining, relaxed.

I'm not sure if these match up, but same comment as previous. There's no need to observe Passover "in haste" if we're not going anywhere; but see final note.

6) Stay inside and in the morning return to your tents
6) Sent [Judas?] outside at night. 7) The rest went outside.

Again, same comment. I haven't heard of anyone in recent years dying on their way home after the Passover service.

Consider that the COMMEMORATION of an event is not the EVENT itself.

Note: Our forefathers knew ahead of time what was going to happen, so maybe when we "see Jerusalem surrounded by armies" 45 days before Passover, THEN maybe we should apply some of those specific instructions.


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