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What Is The Scriptural Definition for Evening, Sundown, And

For the open discussion of all calendar related issues.

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chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 06 Mar 2008, 01:56

kickme wrote:Chuck, I still don't understand.
All the versions show evening first, then morning, showing the 24 hour day beginning at dark. And again, all of them also show the day being daylight hours.
It's just like today, the day of daylight is part of the day as a whole, but so is the dark hours of the day called night also part of the day as a whole.
Yet all translations show evening (night, dark or whatever) came first, and the daylight hours finished the day.
The INcorrect versions only have ONE occurrence of the verb "to be", and don't include YHWH's creative work in the sequence.

The CORRECT versions show the following sequece for EACH DAY:
1. Elohim said [whatever] ... and it came to pass.
2. And evening came (after Elohim's work was done),
3. And morning/dawn came (end of day x, start of day x+1).

One big point to see here is that Elohim's work was done BEFORE "it became evening", so it must have been done during the "daylight" part, setting an example for man's NORMAL workday.
Chuck Baldwin
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Postby kickme » 06 Mar 2008, 02:19

don't focus so hard on the daylight part, and you'll see the whole day, not just that part where one works
remember, dark came before light, after all, what was there before light?

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Postby BrotherArnold » 06 Mar 2008, 02:24

kickme wrote:Chuck, I still don't understand.
All the versions show evening first, then morning, showing the 24 hour day beginning at dark. And again, all of them also show the day being daylight hours.
It's just like today, the day of daylight is part of the day as a whole, but so is the dark hours of the day called night also part of the day as a whole.
Yet all translations show evening (night, dark or whatever) came first, and the daylight hours finished the day.


RESPONSE; we agree with you and the translators and the Scriptures that says the evening AND the morning were day one, but I believe the morning proponents do not believe that morning was part of day one in that verse. I think they believe there was evening up until morning but not including morning was day one and that is why they want to start with day two. But when the smoke clears the verse still says, the evening AND the morning were the first day and that is why all the Scripture examples and the historical evidence shows the day ending at evening, NOT morning.

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...

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Postby BrotherArnold » 06 Mar 2008, 02:36

chuckbaldwin wrote:
kickme wrote:Chuck, I still don't understand.
All the versions show evening first, then morning, showing the 24 hour day beginning at dark. And again, all of them also show the day being daylight hours.
It's just like today, the day of daylight is part of the day as a whole, but so is the dark hours of the day called night also part of the day as a whole.
Yet all translations show evening (night, dark or whatever) came first, and the daylight hours finished the day.
The INcorrect versions only have ONE occurrence of the verb "to be", and don't include YHWH's creative work in the sequence.

The CORRECT versions show the following sequece for EACH DAY:
1. Elohim said [whatever] ... and it came to pass.
2. And evening came (after Elohim's work was done),
3. And morning/dawn came (end of day x, start of day x+1).

One big point to see here is that Elohim's work was done BEFORE "it became evening", so it must have been done during the "daylight" part, setting an example for man's NORMAL workday.



RESPONSE; It appears to me that he created heaven and earth before he said let there be light and then He caused the light to shine out of darkness.

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

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Watchman555
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Postby Watchman555 » 06 Mar 2008, 11:28

I guess the question is, where does verse 2 come in?

Because if verse 2 goes with verse 1 then we can see that the Spirit was hovering on the dark face of the waters before the beginning of the 1st day of the work week, and obviously verse 1 took place before the 1st day of the work week, if this is the case - then the first thing that took place on the first day of the work week was - light came to be. Kind of like when the daylight hours begin.

Gen. 1:1-3:
In the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth. 2 And the earth came to be a formless and empty, and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of Elohim was moving on the face of the waters. 3 And Elohim said, "Let light come to be, and light came to be.

I guess the point is where do we throw the comma in and what "and" goes with what "day". Because truthfully, if we put verses 1 and 2 together and this takes place before the 1st day of the work week, then this could be nothing else but the beginning of the day begins with light.

~Greg

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Postby BrotherArnold » 06 Mar 2008, 13:21

In the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth. 2 And the earth came to be a formless and empty, and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of Elohim was moving on the face of the waters. 3 And Elohim said, "Let light come to be, and light came to be.

I guess the point is where do we throw the comma in and what "and" goes with what "day". Because truthfully, if we put verses 1 and 2 together and this takes place before the 1st day of the work week, then this could be nothing else but the beginning of the day begins with light.

RESPONSE; what if, In the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth. 2 And the earth came to be a formless and empty, was the same as when Adam and Eve came to be naked in the day that they were created, after all the same Hebrew word is used. If this is the case, why could not the darkness represent the new moon day and when He said let there be light, could the first day of the week be beginning on one side of the earth and the new moon day be ending on the other?
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Watchman555
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Postby Watchman555 » 06 Mar 2008, 15:23

Comment -

When Yahuah said, "Let there be light" and there was light, I can see two possibilities;

1) He fired up the sun and the stars

or

2) It would have been an all enveloping light; which would have covered the whole earth

~Greg

chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 06 Mar 2008, 17:03

kickme wrote:don't focus so hard on the daylight part, and you'll see the whole day, not just that part where one works
remember, dark came before light, after all, what was there before light?
I DO see the whole day, with each part occurring as i layed out according to the Hebrew text.

You asked what was there before light? Answer: the previous 24-hour day.
I'll leave it for you to check an interlinear bible and compare the actual text to what we've been taught.
Chuck Baldwin

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Postby chuckbaldwin » 06 Mar 2008, 17:07

BrotherArnold wrote:But when the smoke clears the verse still says, the evening AND the morning were the first day ...
Arnold, the smoke ain't gonna clear until you stop putting the faulty KJV translation ahead of what the Scripture (i.e. Hebrew text) actually says.

I can't believe you're still clinging to such a bad translation.
Chuck Baldwin

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Postby chuckbaldwin » 06 Mar 2008, 17:11

BrotherArnold wrote:It appears to me that he created heaven and earth before he said let there be light and then He caused the light to shine out of darkness.
That is correct.
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

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Postby LittleKangaDrinkingWine » 06 Mar 2008, 17:30

I believe YHWH made the sun, moon and stars in verse one, then in verse 3 YHWH lit the sun and caused lite to shine. This occurred on the first day and it marked the morning portion of the day. That day did not begin until light broke in each part of the world as the earth spun toward the light of the sun. |

The question is, where on the earth did light first shine and does it really matter?

I believe Gen. 1:1 is a type of the New Moon Day, but I'm not sure that even matters either.

At the end of the day, there really isn't enough proof of anything in Gen. 1 to establish a doctrine on except the fact that each one of the days began in the morning (when you read the Hebrew for what it says) and that the signs of each the sun and the moon govern certain parts of YHWH calendar.

It's only when you put the rest of scripture together that you get a clearer understanding of what is really being said in Genesis one concerning time.

LKDW

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Postby BrotherArnold » 07 Mar 2008, 13:47

LittleKangaDrinkingWine wrote:I believe YHWH made the sun, moon and stars in verse one, then in verse 3 YHWH lit the sun and caused lite to shine. This occurred on the first day and it marked the morning portion of the day. That day did not begin until light broke in each part of the world as the earth spun toward the light of the sun. |

The question is, where on the earth did light first shine and does it really matter?

I believe Gen. 1:1 is a type of the New Moon Day, but I'm not sure that even matters either.

At the end of the day, there really isn't enough proof of anything in Gen. 1 to establish a doctrine on except the fact that each one of the days began in the morning (when you read the Hebrew for what it says) and that the signs of each the sun and the moon govern certain parts of YHWH calendar.

It's only when you put the rest of scripture together that you get a clearer understanding of what is really being said in Genesis one concerning time.

LKDW



RESPONSE; no Hebrew scholars ever understood it the way you say it was and there's no Historical evidence of anyone beginning the 24 or day at sunrise/morning. If what you are saying is true, it would put Him resting on the seventh day at sunrise instead of even and if all his work was done during the day light period, what was He doing during the night period before sunrise on the seventh day? i.e. before He rested. i.e. He must have worked until sunrise on the seventh day according to this, what I think is a twisted understanding.

Brother Arnold
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Postby LittleKangaDrinkingWine » 07 Mar 2008, 18:04

Arnold,

Do you deny the fact that YHWH is restoring truth at this end time? Please do not bring up the "non historical proof" any more. There are tons of proof if you care to look. We discussed this over and over again on the other forum.

The word Day (yowm) means light. Genesis 1:5 tells us this, just as plain as the nose on your face. "And He called the light day." How simple is this concept.

There are two parts to a day (evening and morning). Morning is from daybreak until noon and evening is from noon until dark.

The reason evening is listed before morning at the end of verse 5 is because Moses is giving the events in the order they happened.

Morning breaking was the last thing that happened on that first day and the first thing on day two and so on.

1) YHWH did His work and please do not give me that part about Him working right up until daylight on the sixth day. Please. He's the ALL MIGHTY ONE. He simply speaks the word and it's done. It doesn;t take 24 hours for Him to accomplish His task.

2) After YHWH accomplished His work for "x" day, evening came

3) Then night came, not mentioned except to say the period between evening and morning.

4) then morning broke beginning the next day.

The 24 hour day is implied but not focused on because night time is not YHWH's time. He made night, but symbolically it is not His time. Thus He does not focus on that time. He is of the day or light.

This is what the Hebrew text says. Those co called Hebrew scholars you mentioned are probably Edomites from the whordom of Judaism. Listen to them if you wish, but I say they're a bunch of liars and spiritual murders. I've obviously never spoken with one face to face. I see Satan in their eyes every time I go to talk with them. No wonder YHWH said He hated Esau before He was born.

LKDW

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Postby BrotherArnold » 08 Mar 2008, 18:02

Do you deny the fact that YHWH is restoring truth at this end time? Please do not bring up the "non historical proof" any more. There are tons of proof if you care to look. We discussed this over and over again on the other forum.

RESPONSE; I do not deny the fact that YHWH is restoring truth at this end time neither do I deny the fact that Satan is at work also.

You say there are tons of proof of Historical evidence where people observed the morning to morning doctrine but no one has given 1 oz. of the alleged evidence. I am not asking for tons of evidence but I am asking for one Historical example, such as the ones I gave, where anyone every observed a morning to morning 24-hour day.

We discussed this over and over again on the other forum and no one has produced any Historical evidence. People leave behind documents and forensic evidence of how they lived and believed and the day issue is no exception. Another way to find the truth as to how the Jews of our Saviors day understood when a day begins and ends is to go to someone that was there. We should not accept "Modern" history but when you go back to the time of the Messiah and read the writings of those that lived in that day, it gives us an understanding of how the writers and those who read the writings understood things.

The following Historical evidence teaches the seventh day ended at evening/night.


Josephus writes in

WARS OF THE JEWS book 4 CHAPTER 9 (582)


(582) and the last was erected above the top of the Pastophoria, where one of the priests stood of course, and gave a signal beforehand, with a trumpet, at the "beginning of every seventh day, in the "evening twilight, as also at the "evening when the "day was finished, as giving notice to the people when they were to "leave off work, and when they were to go to "Work again. (583)

In the above Josephus is saying that the trumpet was blown at evening which is the beginning of every seventh day and at the evening at the end of every seventh day for the people to go back to work again. Remember Josephus is writing this during the time of the destruction of the Temple when the priesthood was still active and the Temple still standing which conclusively proves the Jews at this time understood the day ends at evening not morning and the day consisted of 24 hours. I know the sunrise proponents will not like this because it does not leave them any wiggle room at all.

Even The Dead Sea Scrolls proves the day begins at "sunset
To prove day ends at evening and the weeks were originally connected to the moon we read fragments of lunar days 4 through 25 which were uncovered at Qumran describing the moon's appearance and movements in relation to the sun and the ancient weeks, it also reveals how they under stood when a day begins. Wise, Abegg and Cooke, in their book The Dead Sea Scrolls, A New Translation, translate the fragment for lunar day 8 as follows "

4Q317
"On the eighth of the month [chodesh], the moon rules all the day in the midst of the sky...and when the sun sets, its light ceases to be obscured, and thus the moon begins to be revealed on the FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK" (pp. 301-303).

This not only Proves that the 8th of the month was always the 7th day of the week but this is conclusive evidence from the Dead Sea Scrolls that the "9th" day of each month is the first day of the week and begins at "Sun set". This is an absolute when using deductive reasoning.
The scroll teaches it is the 8th day before sunset and when the sun sets it begins the 9th at sunset. This proves they understood the day passes from the 8th day to the 9th day at sunset, NOT sunrise. Remember all this is in harmony with the scripture.

I also have eyewitness from Philo the Jew who actually lived at the same time our Saviour did. I have challenged you, Brother Troy, and Brother Chuck, along with everyone I come in contact with, but to this day no one has produced any, and this prove this is a new wind of doctrine.
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Watchman555
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Postby Watchman555 » 08 Mar 2008, 19:41

Shalom BrotherArnold,

You said that no Hebrew Scholar ever understood it the way you said it was. I'm assuming sunrise to sunrise. Just to let you know, we do know a Hebrew Scholar and he does concur that more properly translated the Scripture should read - then came evening, then came morning, the first day. Agreeing that the Scriptural day begins with sunrise.

Anyways, think it is more an example of how we conduct our lives, which is exactly accurate when we get up in the morning, we go to work during the daylight hours, come home in the evening, and go to bed.

Psalms 104:19-24:
19 He made the moon for appointed times; The sun knows its going down. 20 You put darkness, and it is night, In it all the beasts of the forest creep. 21 The young lions are roaring for prey, And seeking their food from El. 22 The sun arises – they withdraw And lie down in their dens. 23 Man goes out to his work, And to his labor, till evening.

Taking into consideration, Yahusha said, "My Father is always working" and the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath. So I personally see this as a format or an example of how we as humans will be observing time. Because Yahuah is not constrained by time.

Also concerning Flavious Josephius, I don't know exactly how reliable his source is. (By the way, I do like that name, Flavious, of course, I don't think that is what I would name my child. Maybe one of our puppies that are due in a few days.)

Quote from Flavious:

"The Life of Flavious Josephus"
Book 1, chapter 5

However, as the danger was directed upon us, we pretended that we were of the same opinion with them ; but only advised them to be quiet for the present and to let the enemy go away,


and

Book 1, chapter 2

So when I had accomplished my desires, I returned back to the city, being now nineteen years old, and began to conduct myself according to the rules of the sect of the Pharisees, which is of kin to the sect of the Stoics, as the Greeks call them.


I can't help but remember the words of Messiah saying that their father was the devil and also what the leaders proclaimed as they sent the Messiah to death, "His blood be on our hands and on our childrens" something to that effect, and also, "We have no king but Caesar".

About Stoicism, a.k.a. kin to the sect of the Pharisees -

Stoicism teaches the development of self-control and fortitude as a means of overcoming destructive emotions; the philosophy holds that becoming a clear and unbiased thinker allows one to understand the universal reason (logos).

Stoicism first appeared in Athens in the Hellenistic period around 301 BC and was introduced by Zeno of Citium


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism

Interestingly enough, just 30 years prior to this date of 301 BC is when Alexander took control over the Persians who had control over Yahrushalem.

Can't remember where we read it, just looked and can't seem to locate the quote, someone had made an implication that the Yahudim were known to accept the ways of their captors ( 7-day continual cycle ring a bell?).

This might be or might not be a satisfactory historical quote, but I think we can definitely see the tie:

Besides the natural reckoning of the day from dawn, it was common in Greece to reckon it officially, for calendar purposes., from sunset to sunset; the Romans reckoned from midnight." --The Oxford Classic Dictionary. Oxford., England: Clarendon Press. 1949. page 909

One will see that the Greeks started the day at sunset, however the Hebrew nation did not always start the Day in the Greek style. As is seen from this item of history as follows.

Note [236] “Is it possible that some vague reminiscence of this significant reorganization of the calendar is preserved in the statement of Alberuni (Chronology of Ancient Nations, tran. Sachau 32 f.), "When Alexander had left Greece at the age of twenty-six years, ... he went down to Jerusalem, which was inhabited by the Jews; then he ordered the Jews to give up the era of Moses and David, and to use his era instead, and to adopt that very year, the twenty-seventh of his life, as the epoch of this era.

The Jews obeyed his command, and accepted what he ordered; for the Rabbis allowed them such a change at the end of each millenium after Moses. And just at that time a millenium had become complete, and their offerings and sacrifices had ceased to he practiced, as they relate. So they adopted his era, and used it for fixing all the occurrences of their months and days" (I owe this reference and suggestion to the generous cooperation of my friend and colleague, Professor J. Z. Lauterbach.)

TIME -When does the Day Begin ? Prepared by F J Steed Ph.D.

So if the Jews accepted a different understanding of the 7th day, it is quite possible that at the command of Alexander they also accepted a different understanding of when the day begins, oy? Because at that time they still would have been on the lunar reckoning, so what exactly was changed?

The Greeks, as early as the time of Homer, ap­pear to have been perfectly familiar with the divi­sion of the year into the twelve lunar months but no intercalary month Embolimos or day is then mentioned. Independent of the division of a month into days, it was divided into periods according to the increase, and decrease of the moon. Thus, the first day or new moon was called Noumenia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenic_calendar

So, the Hellenistics observed a lunar calendar; divided into periods according to the increase and decrease of the moon. Another plus for the lunar reckoning understanding as how the Hellenistics had such an impact on the Yahudim.

Shalom,

~Greg


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