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When Does the Day Begin?

For the open discussion of all calendar related issues.

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YHWHsavesdotcom
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Postby YHWHsavesdotcom » 19 Feb 2008, 19:58

The search for truth is absolutely commendable. And toward that end I offer these points to consider:

The scripture is clear that, although a 'day' technically includes a night time period which precedes the 'daylight' hours. The day begins with 'erev' or 'laila' (evening) and ends at the same point after the sun moves through its 'daytime ordinance', so that a day consists of darkness being expelled by light.

It is also clear that a day was referenced in more technical terms as regarded the daylight period specifically. This period consisting of ONLY LIGHT was also called a 'day', particularly in regard to labor. The day was split between 'morning' hours and 'afternoon' hours.

The ancient Hebrew night was divided into 4 'watches'. They would correspond to the clocklike procesion of the moon, and stars through their ordinances. In the same way the day is divided into four watches.

These watches were divided up again so that each watch consisted of about 3 hours of daylight. Early morning hours would be called hours 1 through 3. They would end when the sun reached the mid point between sunrise and its apex. This midpoint ordinance of the sun would begin the next watch which consisted of 3 hours between that mid point and the apex and called hours 4 through 6. The apex ends the 6th hour of morning and begins the afternoon hours. The first hour of the afternoon was hour 7. And finally, when the sun reached the halfway point from its apex to the setting horizon, this was the end of the 9th hour; the late afternoon hours had begun. So you see, the divisions of 'watches' as determined by the processional ordinances of the sun, moon and stars were the ancient Hebrew clock in the sky.


ObedYah :D
Last edited by YHWHsavesdotcom on 22 Feb 2008, 00:07, edited 1 time in total.

Luneee
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Postby Luneee » 19 Feb 2008, 20:00

BrotherArnold wrote:Shalom Brother Jay,

It is true that a scriptural day is from sunrise to sunset but there is a broader definition of a day, from sunset to sunset, and this Is proven by many Scripture such as, at certain times of the month a woman is unclean for SEVEN DAYS and we are not to lay with her during her uncleanness and if the day is to be understood by the narrow definition only, that would mean that you could sleep with her at night but not during the day light periods.

Also A man that has been cleansed of leprosy is to stay out of the camp for seven days and at the end of seven days AT EVENING, he can come into the camp again, the day does not end until evening. It does not end again at sunrise. All the Scriptures can be understood and harmonized when we accept that there is TWO definitions of a day and all we have to do is look the definition up in any concordance. I believe Genesis one proves the two definitions, one when He says the light/morning he called day/12 hour day, and the other when He says the evening AND the morning were the first-day/24-hour day. I believe the evening and the morning belonged to the first-day, not the evening belonging in one day and the morning in another.

Brother Arnold


I searched this thread, and I cannot find where I posted before on this.

Brother Arnold, are you responding to someone else?

Jay Vincent.

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JMSchattke

Postby BrotherArnold » 20 Feb 2008, 21:56

Your right Brother Jay,
I had you mixed up with JMSchattke,
sorry about that

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...

Brother Arnold
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Postby BrotherArnold » 29 Feb 2008, 01:05

delet
Last edited by BrotherArnold on 29 Feb 2008, 02:45, edited 1 time in total.
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



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eriqbenel
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Re: JMSchattke

Postby eriqbenel » 29 Feb 2008, 01:15

BrotherArnold wrote:Your right Brother Jay,
I had you mixed up with JMSchattke,
sorry about that

Brother Arnold



Me too. That's why I sent you that email, Sorry Bro
Shalom in the name of YHWH,

Eriq

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Postby BrotherArnold » 29 Feb 2008, 02:52

There are some people that honestly do not understand that darkness came before light, just as some people honestly do not know there right hand from their left. Perhaps the following will help.


In the beginning YHWH created the heaven and the earth. 2And the earth was without form, and void; and DARKNESS was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of YHWH moved upon the face of the waters.

Notice DARKNESS is first mentioned here and I would like for you to watch was happens to this darkness.

3And YHWH said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4And YHWH saw the light, that it was good: and YHWH divided the light from the DARKNESS.

Please stop right here and ask yourself what DARKNESS was the light divided from? The darkness that came before the light, or some future darkness as some suggest. Take your time and meditate on this if it takes you several days are several years some people can pick up on things quicker than others. Some people can just read it and believe what it says, others try to make a Revelation out of it. Here it is again,

In the beginning YHWH created the heaven and the earth. 2And the earth was without form, and void; and DARKNESS was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of YHWH moved upon the face of the waters.
3And YHWH said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4And YHWH saw the light, that it was good: and YHWH divided the light from the DARKNESS.

Notice the darkness that the light is divided from is the darkness that was here before the light, not some future darkness as some suggest. i.e. the darkness was here in the BEGINNING "before" He said let there be light and divided the light from it.

5And YHWH called the light Day, and the DARKNESS he called NIGHT. And the EVENING and the morning were the first day. (24hr period)

Notice that the DARKNESS that he called NIGHT is the "SAME" DARKNESS that was here "BEFORE" the light that he CALLED DAY and "That" darkness was called "NIGHT. Therefore it became night BEFORE it became light, in the day that YHWH created the heavens and earth and the process is repeated up unto this day in which we live. And when Moses is giving the account of creation and looking back and says it BECAME evening and it became morning day one, he is referring to the evening darkness that came before the light came, not some darkness that came after the light.
In order to get a sunrise to sunrise day, you must "Ignore" the DARKNESS that he called NIGHT and refuse to believe that it was here BEFORE the light because it is VITAL to the sunrise theory. They have to deny the darkness that was here before He said let there be light and say it WAS NOT part of the first day. But they are so many Scriptures that disprove the sunrise theory, as all the above.

You ask, "Why not just leave it, day and night? Why add morning and evening?

RESPONSE; after separating the light from the darkness He named the light day and named the darkness night, and these were two separate units of time of 12 hours each but when He says the evening and the morning were the first day, He combines them both into one unit of time of 24 hours. People recognize the 12 hour day but refuse to recognize the Broader definition of the day of 24 hours.

The sunrise proponents has TWO endings of the 24 hour day, one sun set/evening and another ending at sunrise/morning. We believe the 12 hour day and the 24 hour day both ended at evening/sundown and by default another 24 hour period begins. Evening always ends the day but sunrise or morning never ends the day. There's no scripture where a day ever ended at sunrise.

You ask about how many evenings. I believe originally there's only one scriptural evening and that is the one that ends the day and it still exists. As time went on and man wanted to be more specific for purposes of meetings etc., they came out which such terms as midday, midnight, twilight, noon, between the evenings before sunup (Exodus 16), between the evenings at the going down of the sun (Deuteronomy 16) etc. this way people would not have to wait on someone all day or all night because they could be more specific with their appointments, and by the time of the New Testament they were using hours that would fluctuate and now we have minutes and seconds. At least this is the way I see it for now.

Hope this helps
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 01 Mar 2008, 00:57

BrotherArnold wrote:There are some people that honestly do not understand that darkness came before light
You're wrong Arnold,

We ALL know that there was darkness before YHWH said "Let there be light", which BEGAN THE 1st DAY. That's why i have said several times that we should use the descriptions of days 2-6, which are NOT debatable, rather than waste time arguing whether the ORIGINAL DARKNESS was or wasn't part of Day 1.

Even if Day 1 began with darkness, the other 5 days started & ended at DAWN, so there's no reason for the 2nd week to revert back to the condition of the earth before its renovation.
Chuck Baldwin
By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

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Postby BrotherArnold » 01 Mar 2008, 04:13

chuckbaldwin wrote:
BrotherArnold wrote:There are some people that honestly do not understand that darkness came before light
You're wrong Arnold,

We ALL know that there was darkness before YHWH said "Let there be light", which BEGAN THE 1st DAY. That's why i have said several times that we should use the descriptions of days 2-6, which are NOT debatable, rather than waste time arguing whether the ORIGINAL DARKNESS was or wasn't part of Day 1.

Even if Day 1 began with darkness, the other 5 days started & ended at DAWN, so there's no reason for the 2nd week to revert back to the condition of the earth before its renovation.


RESPONSE; the darkness that was on earth before He said let there be light, is the darkness that the light was divided from, and it was referred to as evening, therefore the evening darkness that was here first and the morning light that came after was referred to as the first day.

Brother Arnold
Last edited by BrotherArnold on 04 Mar 2008, 00:25, edited 1 time in total.
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

BrotherArnold
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New Moon Day Began at Evening in Exodus 40

Postby BrotherArnold » 01 Mar 2008, 04:16

Less kick this one around for awhile

The following will show that when Moses reared up the tabernacle on the first day of the new moon, the new moon day began at evening.
In Chapter 39 of Exodus we read how the children of Israel made the tabernacle and all the furniture and got everything ready that goes in the tabernacle, and in chapter 40:1 we read how Moses was instructed by YHWH to rear up the tabernacle on the FIRST DAY of the month and place everything in it. And in verse 17 through 33 of the same chapter we see that Moses followed these instructions and in verse 34 says THEN a CLOUD covered the tent of the congregation and the Glory of YHWH filled the tabernacle.

Having said this, which can be verified, I would like to point out the fact that if the NEW MOON day began at sunrise or at evening, they would have been ready to fulfill the Master's Orders, either as soon as the sun rises or as soon as it becomes evening or sunset.

When we read Exodus 40:17 through verse 25, we find that the first day of the month began at evening because in verse 25 they lit the lamps and it was BEFORE the CLOUD covered the tabernacle the next morning period of the new moon day, verse 34. i.e. it was a evenind then morning new moon day.

Another clue that this new moon day began at evening is in Leviticus 40:29, Moses offered the burnt offering which is to burn upon the altar ALL NIGHT, from evening until morning according to Leviticus 6:9 which says, "Command Aaron and his sons, saying, this is the Law of the burn offering: it is the burnt offering, BECAUSE of the burning upon the altar all night UNTO the MORNING"

I want to point out that Exodus through Leviticus was not divided into books and if you read Exodus 40:35 and then read Leviticus 1:1 you will see that Leviticus is a continuation of Exodus, i.e. it is all one writing and the first part is called Exodus because it tells of the leaving Egypt until the tabernacle set up in Exodus 34:5 and Moses could not enter because of the Glory of YHWH and Leviticus 1:1 continues with YHWH calling to Moses from out of the tabernacle that they set up, and chapter eight of Leviticus shows that they are still on the new moon day. Had the day began at sunrise, all this would not be possible. I have much more to offer on this, but want to get some thought from the opposition first.

Keep in mind that around this time of year the day at night would contain approximately 12 hours in a day and the opponents will probably drag out the time that it would take to stand this tent up and sit the furniture inside and light the lamps that are to be lit in the evening. I say this portable tent/tabernacle could be reared up and taken down within a couple of hours if that long, probably 20 or 30 minutes. The show bread could be baking while this army of Levites reared up the tent and set the furniture inside.
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 02 Mar 2008, 16:50

BrotherArnold wrote:RESPONSE; the darkness that was on earth before He said let there be light, is the darkness that the light was divided from, and it was referred to as evening, therefore the evening darkness that was here first and the morning light and came after was referred to as the first day.
Sorry, Arnold, you're out of sequence again. The 1st occurrence of "evening" occurs AFTER YHWH said "let there be light". The "light" (a 12-hour "yowm") came BETWEEN this "evening" and the "darkness" that preceded the light. Again, the sequence is :

1. Pre-existing DARKNESS (not part of the 6 renewal days).
2. LIGHT (the 1st 12-hour half of the 1st 24-hour day).
3. EVENING (separate from #1).
4. NIGHT (the 2nd 12-hour half of the 1st 24-hour day).
5. DAWN, ending Day 1.

Items 2-5 are repeated for each day 2-6.
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

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Postby BrotherArnold » 04 Mar 2008, 00:16

chuckbaldwin wrote:
BrotherArnold wrote:RESPONSE; the darkness that was on earth before He said let there be light, is the darkness that the light was divided from, and it was referred to as evening, therefore the evening darkness that was here first and the morning light that came after was referred to as the first day.
Sorry, Arnold, you're out of sequence again. The 1st occurrence of "evening" occurs AFTER YHWH said "let there be light". The "light" (a 12-hour "yowm") came BETWEEN this "evening" and the "darkness" that preceded the light. Again, the sequence is :

1. Pre-existing DARKNESS (not part of the 6 renewal days).
2. LIGHT (the 1st 12-hour half of the 1st 24-hour day).
3. EVENING (separate from #1).
4. NIGHT (the 2nd 12-hour half of the 1st 24-hour day).
5. DAWN, ending Day 1.

Items 2-5 are repeated for each day 2-6.



RESPONSE; even if this were so, the pre-existing darkness was STILL pre-existing for 12 more hours on the opposite side of the earth before it received its 12 hours of light and therefore it was 12 hours of evening and then 12 hours of morning on that side. Even today there is 12 hours of evening then 12 hours of morning on one side of the earth and 12 hours of morning and 12 hours of evening on the other side, how can you be sure that the author of Genesis was not seeing it from the other perspective?

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 04 Mar 2008, 03:10

BrotherArnold wrote:Even today there is 12 hours of evening then 12 hours of morning on one side of the earth and 12 hours of morning and 12 hours of evening on the other side, how can you be sure that the author of Genesis was not seeing it from the other perspective?
Because he didn't say "it became evening on the other side of the earth, and it became morning on the other side of the earth".
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

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Postby BrotherArnold » 04 Mar 2008, 07:35

chuckbaldwin wrote:
BrotherArnold wrote:Even today there is 12 hours of evening then 12 hours of morning on one side of the earth and 12 hours of morning and 12 hours of evening on the other side, how can you be sure that the author of Genesis was not seeing it from the other perspective?
Because he didn't say "it became evening on the other side of the earth, and it became morning on the other side of the earth".


RESPONSE; He did not have to say on the other side of the earth. He could have been speaking from outer space and looking down on the earth. All we know for sure is that He said let there be light and it went from one side of the earth to the other and the other side of the earth would have 12 more hours of darkness before the light reached it, i.e. from east to west and if he was doing is creative speaking from a Westward perspective, the light would start in the east and come to where He was speaking from.

The Scripture seems to indicate that He was creating from a Westward perspective because He planted a garden eastward and carried the man, which he created, eastward and placed him in it. If the man was created west from where the sun first rose, and carried east, this indicates a Westward perspective, where there would be 12 more hours of evening before the 12 hours of light came around to where He was creating and speaking from, versus your eastward perspective, where there would be 12 hours of morning before the 12 hours of evening came around.

So we can see that it is not conclusive as to which side of the earth the author of Genesis was referring to. But there's a strong indication that the creative speaking was coming from a Westward perspective where He created the man and carried him eastward toward the rising of the sun. Therefore there was evening and there was morning on one side of the earth i.e. speaking from a Westward perspective and there was morning and there was evening on the other, i.e. speaking from it eastward perspective.

If a stranger came from another planet and discovered earth for the first time, and saw that it was dark on one side and light on the other side, he would not know which side of the earth time was reckoned from. If he landed on the dark side of the earth, he would have 12 hours of evening and then 12 hours of morning. But if he landed on the light side of the earth, he would have 12 hours of morning and then 12 hours of evening. Remember the earth is the same age on both sides. Even if we go to day four in creation, when He set up His calendar, it was evening then morning on one side of the earth and morning then evening on the other and to find out how they reckoned time, we must go to other scriptures and the historical evidence and both support a Westward perspective.

Brother Arnold
Last edited by BrotherArnold on 05 Mar 2008, 12:09, edited 1 time in total.
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 05 Mar 2008, 05:16

Good Grief!! :roll:
Chuck Baldwin

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Postby BrotherArnold » 05 Mar 2008, 11:59

chuckbaldwin wrote:Good Grief!! :roll:


RESPONSE; He did not say Good Grief, but He said that it was GOOD and VERY GOOD, you added the GRIEF. :D

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info


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