East and West Proves Lunar Sabbaths

[BrotherArnold]

Shalom All,

If two people here in the United States are keeping the traditional uninterrupted cycle, one of them will be on the wrong cycle, even though both of them believe in Saturday Sabbath. Both of their cycles will be correct, yet Saturday will not be the seventh day cycle for one of them. This Is an Absolute.

Let me explain, if some of Noah’s descendents migrated East after the flood and another tribe migrated West and when their descendents meet here In the United States, they will be on two different cycles in the same day. The reason for this is the tribe that is traveling east toward the sun will gradually gain time and the tribe that Is migrating West will gradually lose time and when the two tribes descendents meet halfway around the globe, they will be in two different days or cycles, even though neither one missed a day counting their cycle. One tribe would think it was the first day of the week and the other would think it was the seventh day of the week and both would be right according to the traditional cycle. I.e. if Joe’s descendents entered the United States from the East and Tom’s descendents came from the West, it would be impossible for them to be in the same cycle because the tribe that traveled east will be seeing one more sunrise than the tribe that traveled west. They will be a whole evening and morning off from each other but this problem goes away with lunar Sabbaths, they will be keeping the same Sabbath and they will BOTH be right.


See http://lunarsabbath.info/_wsn/page14.html

Brother Arnold

[chuckbaldwin]

Sorry Arnold, but your e-w scenario happens regardless of lunar Sabbaths.
The person going east will pass 1 sunset more than the one going west.

Assume they start at noon on the 1st of the month, and travel for 4.5 "days" or 108 hours. The "east"er will think 5 days have elapsed, while the "west"er will think 4 days have elapsed, and so at least the next 4 Sabbaths will be observed a day apart, regardless of whether it solar or lunar.

The only solution is for 1 of them to cross an IDL, which will put his day back in sync with the other.

[eriqbenel]

Sorry Arnold, but your e-w scenario happens regardless of lunar Sabbaths.
The person going east will pass 1 sunset more than the one going west.

Assume they start at noon on the 1st of the month, and travel for 4.5 "days" or 108 hours. The "east"er will think 5 days have elapsed, while the "west"er will think 4 days have elapsed, and so at least the next 4 Sabbaths will be observed a day apart, regardless of whether it solar or lunar.

The only solution is for 1 of them to cross an IDL, which will put his day back in sync with the other.

Who invented the IDL? Is that from YHWH or man? You have actually HELPED Arnold's point, rather than diminished it.

If the people in the scenario are using YHWH's system and not the traditional "weekly" system, it won't matter what "day" it is to the easterner or westerner because they will both be looking at the same moon and not an IDL or calendar.

[kickme]

even so, there are times when the new moon isn't seen in Israel on one calendar day, but 8 hours later it can be seen in the US. So, technically, in that respect, we are 1 day ahead of them
Same problem, not unique to 7th day theory or lunar theory.

sometimes it amuses me the lengths one will go to in order to prove themselves right

[chuckbaldwin]

Who invented the IDL? Is that from YHWH or man? You have actually HELPED Arnold's point, rather than diminished it.

Necessity is the mother of invention. Should we avoid using bridges to get across rivers, just because man invented them? (answer=NO)

Likewise, the IDL was a necessary invention.

If the people in the scenario are using YHWH's system and not the traditional "weekly" system, it won't matter what "day" it is to the easterner or westerner because they will both be looking at the same moon and not an IDL or calendar.

Since (per LS theory) the moon doesn't reset the Sabbath count until the beginning of the month, and my reply addressed the 4 Sabbaths within a month, how would the 2 travellers know when to adjust their date either back or forward, if there was no dateline that 1 of them crossed?

[eriqbenel]

Necessity is the mother of invention. Should we avoid using bridges to get across rivers, just because man invented them? (answer=NO)

Likewise, the IDL was a necessary invention.

Gimme a break Chuck. It wasn't "necessary" for thousands of years! To Moshe and children of Yisrael, there was no IDL needed. There was no IDL to Messiah and the disciples.

An IDL is a "necessity" when mankind invents calendrical systems that do not correspond to the luminaries.

Since (per LS theory) the moon doesn't reset the Sabbath count until the beginning of the month, and my reply addressed the 4 Sabbaths within a month, how would the 2 travellers know when to adjust their date either back or forward, if there was no dateline that 1 of them crossed?

On a YHWH calendar, there is no need to "adjust". A person following YHWH's system, follows the luminaries, wherever they are.

Conversely, if two people following today's 7 day cycle system, start off in Yisrael and travel in opposite direction to the US. One person will be on a different day than the other when they both arrive. One on say, Saturday and the other on perhaps Sunday (supposing the trip takes seven days).

How do you know that the Sunday person isn't just as much in line with your "creation" seven cycle as the Saturday person?

Wouldn't it be a big blow to you Saturday keepers to know that the Sunday people are keeping a "seventh day" in line with creation just like you are? Depending on which way one had traveled....

[eriqbenel]

even so, there are times when the new moon isn't seen in Israel on one calendar day, but 8 hours later it can be seen in the US. So, technically, in that respect, we are 1 day ahead of them
Same problem, not unique to 7th day theory or lunar theory.

sometimes it amuses me the lengths one will go to in order to prove themselves right

Once again my friend, you are behind the class. First of all, the New Moon doesn't need to be "seen". In fact, it can't be "seen" it is the dark moon. Check the Farmers Almanac, the US Naval Observatory, and NASA if you need proof.

Second, if I am following the luminaries above my head, I am not concerned with what is seen or not seen in Yisrael. The "moedim" in Scripture are not meant to be keep on "Yisrael time", they are meant to be keep on YHWH's heavenly luminary time over ALL the earth.

As the earth rotates on a particular "moed", the inhabitants underneath the moon begin their praises. If you can picture it, this means that a continuous praise and worship service commences for 24hours, beginning in one part of the earth and ending when the earth has completed it's rotation. This might "begin" and "end" in Yisrael, but that is speculation too. It doesn't matter, we have the Scripture's to follow in every part of the earth. If we do our part and follow it, YHWH will do His part and take care of the luminaries.

[eriqbenel]

Necessity is the mother of invention. Should we avoid using bridges to get across rivers, just because man invented them? (answer=NO)

Likewise, the IDL was a necessary invention.

Brother Arnold also made an great point when we spoke.

Since we know that the International Date Line is a man made invention, you should ask yourself this:

Does man have the right and/or ability to place that line where- ever he wants? Sure he can!

So if they decide to change the line and put it right next to your house, automatically thrusting you into the next day (or previous day), then will you still believe you will be in line with the "creation week"?

[kickme]

Once again my friend, you are behind the class. First of all, the New Moon doesn't need to be "seen". In fact, it can't be "seen" it is the dark moon. Check the Farmers Almanac, the US Naval Observatory, and NASA if you need proof.

Second, if I am following the luminaries above my head, I am not concerned with what is seen or not seen in Yisrael. The "moedim" in Scripture are not meant to be keep on "Yisrael time", they are meant to be keep on YHWH's heavenly luminary time over ALL the earth.

As the earth rotates on a particular "moed", the inhabitants underneath the moon begin their praises. If you can picture it, this means that a continuous praise and worship service commences for 24hours, beginning in one part of the earth and ending when the earth has completed it's rotation. This might "begin" and "end" in Yisrael, but that is speculation too. It doesn't matter, we have the Scripture's to follow in every part of the earth. If we do our part and follow it, YHWH will do His part and take care of the luminaries.

you missed the point entirely.
BroArnold stated the confusion caused by the person travelling east vs the one going west, that they would meet on the other side at odds with one another. I'm merely pointing out that one person on one side of the world in communication with someone on the other side of the world will be keeping the new moon day on differing days whether by physical observation or by the Farmers Almanac, the US Naval Observatory, or NASA. Simply because the moon will be in differing phases as it completes it's circuit. It is unavoidable, thus the point BroArnold brings up is pretty well moot since it is a common problem whether 7 day contiual or by lunar.

[eriqbenel]

you missed the point entirely.
BroArnold stated the confusion caused by the person travelling east vs the one going west, that they would meet on the other side at odds with one another. I'm merely pointing out that one person on one side of the world in communication with someone on the other side of the world will be keeping the new moon day on differing days whether by physical observation or by the Farmers Almanac, the US Naval Observatory, or NASA. Simply because the moon will be in differing phases as it completes it's circuit. It is unavoidable, thus the point BroArnold brings up is pretty well moot since it is a common problem whether 7 day contiual or by lunar.

I'm afraid it is you who has missed the point, my friend. I don't have the energy to go over it again for you.

If you read and meditate on it, you may get it.

[kickme]

I guess what I'm saying is the same thing. One who follows the solar luminary to count his 7 days is doing the same thing as one who believes they are to look to the moon for the sabbath cycle.
each watches the luminaries and keeps, and each is fully convinced in their own mind. Could be neither is correct, ever think of that?

Personally, I'm not sure I care which you follow, as long as you follow Yahweh with your whole heart and being. I'm a simple fellow, and I can stand a few seeming contradictions.

[chuckbaldwin]

Gimme a break Chuck. It wasn't "necessary" for thousands of years! To Moshe and children of Yisrael, there was no IDL needed. There was no IDL to Messiah and the disciples.

How about give ME a break Eriq. We have no record of Moses OR the ancient children of Israel, OR the Messiah OR His disciples circumnavigating the globe, or crossing the Pacific, so they stayed basically on the same side of the current IDL, and so didn't encounter the need.

On a YHWH calendar, there is no need to "adjust". A person following YHWH's system, follows the luminaries, wherever they are.

That's meaningless rhetoric without actually addressing the technical problems involved.

Conversely, if two people following today's 7 day cycle system, start off in Yisrael and travel in opposite direction to the US. One person will be on a different day than the other when they both arrive. One on say, Saturday and the other on perhaps Sunday (supposing the trip takes seven days).

You know better than that. As i've already pointed out, the one who crosses the Dateline will have his date adjusted so it will be the same as his buddy when they meet.

How do you know that the Sunday person isn't just as much in line with your "creation" seven cycle as the Saturday person?

He IS; sunday is his 1st day of the week, and saturday is his 7th day of the week, same as mine.

[chuckbaldwin]

Since we know that the International Date Line is a man made invention, you should ask yourself this: Does man have the right and/or ability to place that line where- ever he wants? Sure he can!

No. He is morally obligated to put it where it affects the fewest people. If YHWH wants it somewhere else, like the Holy Land, He will put it there when He comes to rule.

So if they decide to change the line and put it right next to your house, automatically thrusting you into the next day (or previous day), then will you still believe you will be in line with the "creation week"?

I'll tell you IF & WHEN that happens. I'll still go by when the date starts in Jerusalem.

[BrotherArnold]

Sorry Arnold, but your e-w scenario happens regardless of lunar Sabbaths.
The person going east will pass 1 sunset more than the one going west.

Assume they start at noon on the 1st of the month, and travel for 4.5 "days" or 108 hours. The "east"er will think 5 days have elapsed, while the "west"er will think 4 days have elapsed, and so at least the next 4 Sabbaths will be observed a day apart, regardless of whether it solar or lunar.

The only solution is for 1 of them to cross an IDL, which will put his day back in sync with the other.

RESPONSE; it is the only solution with the man-made calendar you must have a man-made dateline or starting point but if you allow yourself to think outside the box and use the creation calendar, the great lights of Genesis 1:14, they sets the dates.

I think you agree that man has the power to put the dateline any where he wishes and if he had set the dateline to the other side of you, before you were born, you would be keeping Saturday on a different day than you do now and you would not even know the difference, but you would still be arguing that the day you are keeping his right.

Brother Arnold

[BrotherArnold]

Since we know that the International Date Line is a man made invention, you should ask yourself this: Does man have the right and/or ability to place that line where- ever he wants? Sure he can!

No. He is morally obligated to put it where it affects the fewest people. If YHWH wants it somewhere else, like the Holy Land, He will put it there when He comes to rule.

So if they decide to change the line and put it right next to your house, automatically thrusting you into the next day (or previous day), then will you still believe you will be in line with the "creation week"?

I'll tell you IF & WHEN that happens. I'll still go by when the date starts in Jerusalem.

RESPONSE; you say that man is morally obligated to put it where it affects the fewest people but since when can you count on men to be moral? I guarantee you if they see how they can make some money by moving it, they will do so no matter whose sabbath it will affect.

Example

Seventh Day Adventists in Tonga: After the Butz era (1896-1905), there followed a period of seven years in which one person was baptised. Baptisms in Tonga were rare due to the lack of church identity. In those days, the International Date Line was officially drawn to the west of Tonga. All Christians in Tonga worshipped on the same day. The Adventists worshipped on Saturday according to proper overseas reckoning. The other Christians also worshipped on that day, believing it to be Sunday, for the earliest Christian missionaries had not made allowances for the dateline. The day of worship was not a distinguishing issue. [3]

Below we have pasted pictures of the IDL as it appeared first in the year 1921, and then the second shows the adjustments up to the year 1995.

IDL as of 1921
IDL as of 1995

The above pictures show us the shortcomings of the modernistic way of figuring time. In actuality it speaks to us, that humanity can determine when a day begins as well as ends. Man can thus establish or sanctify which day should be the Sabbath, both in its beginning and ending. In essence, man places himself in the place of Almighty YHWH as the one who declares which day should be considered holy. This problem is completely solved if we recognize the calendar in the heavens (Gen. 1:14-18), and allow YHWH to sanctify us, just as the Scriptures declare He should.