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Post from Eliyah.com/Beware of Lunar Sabbath

Posted: 20 Jan 2008, 16:43
by Watchman555
What I posted:

It seems obvious to me that Tom would not have me discuss any of the matters concerning his study in a public setting. In which I am in opposition to. I feel everyone should have the opportunity to view what is being discussed. Like I said before, I do not feel that Tom has adequately answered the questions.

As Chuck Baldwin had mentioned, we are hosting a discussion forum in which my reply to these questions have been posted. In all earnestness I am looking for real answers for these tough questions. So with that being said, I would like to invite Tom and anyone else who feel that they can answer these questions to my satisfaction.

Please remember that I am not asking these questions from a biased lunar reckoning position. We are currently keeping the 7-day continual cycle and are studying both sides of the issue.

I appeal to you brothers in the Name of Yahusha to consider a rational discussion concerning these questions that I might be fully persuaded and convinced according to Scripture, that the 7th-day continual cycle or the lunar reckoning is correct.

Tom and others - Will you walk a mile with me?

Larry's Reply

Posted: 20 Jan 2008, 16:43
by Watchman555
I reply: In my opinion, EliYah has already "walked a mile" (and a lot farther) with lunar sabbatarians, as well as those who are looking into lunar sabbaths. He did this by agreeing to move a "group e-mail discussion" on this topic to his web site back in 2004. He closed the forum in October 2007, after having given lunar sabbatarians plenty of opportunities to present their findings. He walked even farther by taking the time to compose the study whose link he offers in this thread.

I personally feel I have also "walked a mile" (and a lot farther) with lunar sabbatarians. I initially looked into lunar sabbaths because a lunar sabbatarian challenged me to do the same. One thing led to another, and eventually someone asked me to write a short study on that topic for his newsletter. My study wasn't as brief as I had hoped to make it, as it wasn't easy trying to briefly address each claim put forth by lunar sabbatarians. It came out to 22 pages, which he sent out as a supplement to his newsletter. Of course, lunar sabbatarians claimed that I had not "adequately answered" their claims, so the study grew to over 30 pages, then to over 60 pages, then to over 100 pages. Even now, I am in the process of revising the study so as to accommodate as many lunar sabbatarian claims as reasonably possible. I am only up to the sixth chapter of this revision, but I believe those six chapters adequately refute the lunar sabbath doctrine.

I spent the better part of three years participating in the "True Sabbath" forum, and I believe I successfully addressed every argument the lunar sabbatarians raised. When it became apparent the lunar sabbatarians had no new arguments to present, as evidenced by the fact that they were repeatedly bringing up old arguments, combined with the fact that the discussion had deteriorated to more insults than discussion, I decided to stop participating. From time to time, I would check out the forum discussion, just in case someone might happen to submit something new. I never did see anything new, but I did notice that you contributed quite a few postings. Based on what I saw from your postings, I determined that you were a lunar sabbatarian. In fact, in our latest updated chapter (chapter 6, which I added back in July 2007), I quoted one of your comments, and I even referred to you as a lunar sabbatarian! That was the impression you left me with! That forum is no longer accessible to the general public, but I'm sure if EliYah were to do so and check out the postings you submitted, he would understand why you left me (and others) with the impression that you are a lunar sabbatarian. As such, I can certainly understand why you are not satisfied with EliYah's study. In fact, I strongly doubt that what I have written will satisfy you. For those who may be interested in reading my perspective on the lunar sabbath doctrine, based on my 10+ years of exposure to lunar sabbatarians, here is a link:

http://www.ponderscripture.org/lunarsabbintro.htm

As I mentioned, I have only updated the first six chapters of the original study, and the last update was added in July. I have been working on another project since that time, but I hope to resume work on the rest of the study sometime in the future, YHWH willing.

Love in Messiah,
Larry

Excerpt from Larry's Study - Chapter 6

Posted: 20 Jan 2008, 16:45
by Watchman555
Speaking of "Historical information, we already know that some lunar sabbatarians, who do not appreciate the historical evidence we have presented, attempt to portray us as "Putting history above Scripture. This, as we have seen, is actually a cop-out because, as it turns out, the historical record happens to agree with our understanding of Scripture. Other lunar sabbatarians believe they have the historical evidence to validate their position - it's just that they either present an interpretation of that evidence that we do not agree with (such as how they interpret the writings of Philo, for example) or they don't come through with anything. An example of the latter comes from a posting submitted to the True Sabbath online forum discussion that we have mentioned during the course of this study. Here is an excerpt of a posting submitted by lunar sabbatarians Greg and Dawn:

Now if the 7-day continual cycle is truth, it will be proven. So in our studies we are not only trying to prove the lunar cycle but also the 7-day cycle. So far we have found tremendous historical evidence proving the lunar cycle has been observed in many cultures throughout the ages. We have even discovered to this very day the Chinese, Japanese, and Arabics use a type of lunar cycle. But on the quest for the 7-day continual cycle the evidence for it's existence prior to Rome's initiation of it has been elusive. Unless Rome has borrowed the 7-day continual cycle from an older one it seems it would have come from their nundinal 8-day cycle20 in which the odds of them regaining a true 7-day continual cycle is very minimal. The philosophies of the 7-day continual is verified to stem from a man named Ptolemy; who was an Egyptian; which maybe explains in part the iron yoke.21

When I read the above posting, I anticipated the presentation of the historical evidence validating their claims. However, Greg and Dawn offered nothing to the reading audience except the above, which merely constitutes their own personal summary observations. Moreover, we are puzzled by their "Discovery" that the Chinese, Japanese and Arabs use a "Type of lunar cycle. Isn't that what we use when we go by a lunar calendar consisting of either 29 or 30-day months? If the cultures they mention actually observed lunar-based weeks, why didn't Greg and Dawn present supportive evidence validating such a claim? Most importantly, though, we need to express that we really aren't concerned with regard to which type of weekly cycle was used by the Chinese, Japanese and the Arabs. Our concern lies with the type of weekly cycle recognized by ancient Judaism. Thus far the only "Supportive evidence" offered by lunar sabbatarians to validate their belief that ancient Judaism recognized lunar Sabbaths is their interpretation of Scripture.

Of course, we are also very curious as to where Greg and Dawn obtained information that the "7-day continual cycle is verified to stem from a man named Ptolemy. These types of unsubstantiated remarks are what leave us with the impression that lunar sabbatarians base their research more on wishful thinking than verifiable information. It is one thing to present such remarks that are so critical to the veracity of their position; it is entirely another matter to validate such claims with supportive evidence from credible sources.

Our Response to Larry

Posted: 20 Jan 2008, 16:46
by Watchman555
Hey Larry,

Just wanted to let you know your discernment was off a little bit on that one. I think if you had read more of our posts that you would have realized that we were 7-day continual keepers. We had mentioned that in several posts, and if you would like verification I'm sure we can find it. But if you would read what you posted in your article we said: "IN OUR STUDIES"? not in "OUR MINDS"?. We are not only trying to prove the lunar but also the 7-day continual; which should have given you the heads-up that we were in the midst of studying BOTH sides of the issue. As far as you saying that they were unsubstantiated claims, the fact is, you did not ask us to provide the quotes/links/copies. I would say that what you have written concerning us at this point in time is false. I'm also in wonderment why you did not confront us concerning anything that we had written. If you think that we are naked in our understanding, then why didn't you offer us any clothing? I also wanted to let you know that most of the questions that we have does not stem from reading others" studies on the lunar reckoning. The questions that you see coming from me are my questions, and interestingly enough, a lot of the same questions I have are the same questions that the lunar reckoning people have also. What I'm trying to tell you is my questions are not coming from other studies. These are the questions that come from within; don't you think they are valid questions? Don't you think we should study to show ourselves approved? Don't you think that we should be ready to give an answer to the hope that is within us? Don't you think we should let the Set-Apart Spirit, Spirit of Truth lead and guide us? Or maybe you think it is another spirit that is leading us, with these valid questions. Surely you don't think that we should read a study and because we feel that this study comes from a credible person that we take it for truth without looking into it ourselves, do you? Ever watch a baby eating their baby food? Do they know what kind of food they are consuming? Do they even care? Most of the time the child will be looking around and pay no attention to what is being put into its mouth. Some people call it spoon-fed.

I did skim through your article and I saw a lot of history that you were writing about and it seemed that you were more worried about discrediting the people who keep lunar reckoning because of their conduct. Personally, I'm not interested in how one conducts themselves that is between them and Yahuah. I'm interested in the truth of Yahuah's calendar. We are studying to show ourselves approved. I do believe that Yahuah will grant us the truth concerning this matter. I trust in Him. Not in man. Scripture even warns us not to trust a brother. So when I read your posting that was obviously trying to discredit those who might be considered "Leaders of the movement" I'm not interested in hearing stories about how an individual has done this or that, I myself have conducted myself in unpleasing manners to the Father many times, but He still deals with me. I do not discredit understanding because of ones character. Just like I will not discredit you for your misrepresentation of my wife and I. I would appreciate it if you could rectify the situation in your study. You might also add that you did not ask for any documentation concerning what we said. Let us not destroy an understanding because the one bringing the message does not make you feel warm and fuzzy, because I do not think the Pharisees had the warm and fuzzies when Yahusha called them hypocrites.

I'm sorry that you feel that Tom and you have already walked that mile and even further. You must be tired. But maybe there is someone else who will pick up the mantle of truth and explain these questions that I have.

~Greg

The invitation

Posted: 20 Jan 2008, 16:58
by Watchman555
Shalom Larry,

In the interest of providing the information to the claims we made in the post you cited in your study.

Due to the nature and sensitivity of this subject we will not be including that information here. Here is a link where it may be viewed:

http://yahuahreigns.informe.com/forum/c ... s-df8.html

The information is provided in the "Post from eliyah.com/beware of lunar sabbath"

~Greg


The Information

Posted: 20 Jan 2008, 16:59
by Watchman555
TYPES of LUNAR CYCLES

Chinese:

Chinese Buddhism (traditional Chinese: 漢傳佛教; simplified Chinese: 汉传佛教) refers collectively to the various schools of Buddhism that have flourished in China since ancient times.[citation needed] These schools integrated the ideas of Confucianism, Taoism and other indigenous philosophical systems so that what was initially a foreign religion (the buddhadharma) came to be a natural part of Chinese civilisation albeit with its own unique character.[citation needed] Buddhism has played an enormous role in shaping the mindset of the Chinese people affecting as it has aesthetics, politics, literature, philosophy and medicine.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Buddhism

[bThe Uposatha is the Buddhist sabbath day, [/b] in existence from the Buddha's time (500 BC), and still being kept today in Theravada Buddhists countries.
1. The Buddha taught that the Uposatha day is for "the cleansing of the defiled mind," resulting in inner calm and joy.
2. On this day, disciples and monks intensify their practice, deepen their knowledge and express communal commitment through millenia-old acts of lay-monastic reciprocity. In general, Uposatha is observed about once a week
3. in accordance with the four phases of the moon: the new moon, the full moon, and the two quarter moons in between.
4. In some communities, only the new moon and full moon are observed as uposatha days.
5. For a calendar of uposatha days, see John Bullitt's "Calendar of Uposatha Days."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uposatha

JAPANESE

For some time following adoption of a lunar calendar, Japan used Chinese sexagenary cycles for naming days and years. However, there is evidence that from 807, a seven day week with names related to the "planets" had found its way to Japan. Before this year, as in China, Sunday had no special significance (workers did not get any days "off"), and the most important aspect of each day was determining whether it was "good" or "bad" (a practice that continues in "unofficial" lunar calendar use to this day).


http://www2.gol.com/users/stever/calendar.htm

ARABS

The Islamic calendar or Muslim calendar (Arabic: التقويم الهجري; at-taqwīm al-hijrī; Persian: تقویم هجري قمری ‎ taqwīm-e hejri-ye qamari; also called the Hijri calendar) is the calendar used to date events in many predominantly Muslim countries, and used by Muslims everywhere to determine the proper day on which to celebrate Islamic holy days. It is a lunar calendar having 12 lunar months in a year of about 354 days. Because this lunar year is about 11 days shorter than the solar year, Islamic holy days, although celebrated on fixed dates in their own calendar, usually shift 11 days earlier each successive solar year, such as a year of the Gregorian calendar. Islamic years are also called Hijra years because the first year was the year during which the Hijra occurred—Islamic prophet Muhammad's emigration from Mecca to Medina. Thus each numbered year is designated either H or AH, the latter being the initials of the Latin anno Hegirae (in the year of the Hijra).[1]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_calendar

ANCIENT EGYPTIAN INVOLVEMENT IN THE WEEK

"The custom, however, of referring the days to the seven stars called planets was instituted by the Egyptians, but is now found among all mankind, though its adoption has been comparatively recent; at any rate the ancient Greeks never understood it, so far as I am aware." (Cassius Dio, History of Rome, XXXVII, 18.1


In Egyptian astronomy, the order of the planets, beginning with the most remote, is Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, the Sun, Venus, Mercury, and the Moon. Each hour in the day was consecrated to a particular planet. One to Saturn, the next to Jupiter, the third to Mars, and so on according to the above order; and the day received the name of the planet which presided over its first hour.

If the first hour of a day was consecrated to Saturn, that planet would also have the 8th, the 15th, and the 22nd hour . The 23rd would fall to Jupiter, the 24th to Mars, and the 25th, or the first hour of the second day, would belong to the Sun. In like manner the first hour of the 3rd day would fall to the Moon, the first of the 4th day to Mars, of the 5th to Mercury, of the 6th to Jupiter, and of the 7th to Venus. The cycle being completed, the first hour of the 8th day would return to Saturn, and all the others succeed in the same order.

According to Dio Cassius, the Egyptian week began on Saturday. On their flight from Egypt, the Jews, out of hatred toward the Egyptians, made Saturday the last day of the week.


http://www.theriverstyx.net/the_days_of_the_week.shtml

Ptolemy (or Claudius Ptolemaeus or Klaudios Ptolemaios) (Πτολεμαίος ΚλαÏ?διος) lived in Alexandria, Egypt, from approx. 87 to probably 170 AD. Very little is known about his personal life. He was probably born in the Hellenistic city of Ptolemais Hermii on the Nile in Upper Egypt.

Ptolemy was an astronomer, mathematician and geographer. He codified the Greek geocentric view of the universe, and rationalized the apparent motions of the planets as they were known in his time. Ptolemy synthesized and extended Hipparchus's system of epicycles and eccentric circles to explain his geocentric theory of the solar system. Ptolemy's system involved at least 80 epicycles to explain the motions of the Sun, the Moon, and the five planets known in his time. The circle was considered as the ideal orbit even if Hipparchus proposed an eccentric motion. It was only Kepler who finally showed that the planet orbits are elliptic and not spherical.


http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/PtolemyAstronomy.htm

The planetary week, an institution which has spread eastward over the Oriental world and westward into Europe, is a product of the speculations of astrologers and philosophers during the Hellenistic, or Grseco-Oriental, era. The sequence of its days depends ultimately upon the order of the seven planetary spheres, adopted by Ptolemy in antiquity and after him by astronomers until the discoveries of Copernicus. If the planets are grouped according to their distance from the earth, beginning with the highest and descending to the lowest, we obtain the following order : Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Sun, Venus, Mercury, Moon. No certain evidence exists that this arrangement was known at an earlier date than the second century before our era. The astrological order, which also begins with Saturn, proceeds next to the fourth planet, or Sun, from which again the fourth planet (by inclusive reckoning) is the Moon. By continuing to select every fourth planet thereafter we obtain at length the regents of the seven weeksays : Saturn, Sun, Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus.


Rest Days by Hutton Webster, page 216

http://www.archive.org/details/restdays ... 00websrich

Posted: 20 Jan 2008, 18:37
by JMSchattke
Well, As I understand it, Brother Arnold was arguing that the late roman republic changed form a 10 day cycle to the seven day cycle. That was in his post trying to say that Saturday worshipers all worship Saturn, right?

So, you can't have it both ways. It's obvious the seven day cycle was adopted by the Romans from the practice the Jews kept.

Posted: 27 Jan 2008, 21:11
by BrotherArnold
You might have me mixed up with Brother Troy

Brother Arnold

Posted: 27 Jan 2008, 21:31
by chuckbaldwin
BrotherArnold wrote:You might have me mixed up with Brother Troy
Is Troy on this forum? If so, what's his userid? I'm not being nosey, just like to know who i'm talking/writing to.

Posted: 28 Jan 2008, 20:59
by YHWHsavesdotcom
The 'opinions' that Tom holds did not occur in a vaccum, or as he would have you percieve, the result of unbiased research.

I know 'Tom' very well. After he was exposed by some brethren a few years ago on some unrelated issues, as opposed to repenting and moving on, he sold the business that these brethren had built for themselves right out from under them...their bread and butter was taken (stolen) from them. He also placed me in the precarious position of choosing between him and them. As YHWH is my witness, I believed him to be in the wrong and sided to get him to repent and reconcile with these brothers and their families who were dependent on the business they had built together. As a result of my choice, and his decision to percieve it as a threat to HIS ministry, he fired me from the positions that I held, including that of administrator of his forums which I had held for some time.

It seems that it was also at this time that he decided to take the position regarding 'time' issues that he currently holds. It was no secret while I was there that I had been researching these issues of 'time' while there. In fact, I became a practicing 'lunar sabbath' observer while there.

After becoming estranged by the other brethren and myself as a result of his choices, it seems he also took up the banner to come against the research I had been doing. He banned me from his chat room and from his regular forums and moved all threads pertaining to issues of 'time', particularly as regards lunar sabbaths, to a 'private', hidden forum which was heavily censored and which he would allow me to post. I couldn't handle the censorship and left all together.

Nothing has been more clear to me than the fact that Tom has NOT been unbiased. It cannot be more plain to me, as a result of the personal attacks, manipulation, and censorship which I have endured at his hands for the past 5 years, that he is NOT unbiased (a perception he cunningly grooms).

As regarding answering his objections: If I felt that Tom was intellectually honest I would perhaps answer him. Since I am convinced that is not the case, I would ask all those who are honestly 'truth seekers' to read up on the issues and not get involved un cult personalities. Study to show yourself approved, don't merely approve of someone elses study.

With that said, let me quote from the book of Jude:

'These dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings...(they) speak abusively against whatever they do not understand, and even what they do understand, by instinct. Like unreasoning animals—these are the very things that destroy them.

Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam's error; they have been destroyed in Korah's rebellion.

These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves...they are wandering stars (planets for whom the satanic week is reckoned) for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

ObedYah