"The fear of יהוה is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Set-apart One is understanding"

Beware of the "Lunar Sabbath" by Tom

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chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 24 Jan 2008, 23:42

eriqbenel wrote:
OK, Eriq, U axed for it:


1. Green's Interlinear - WRONG. It does not translate as you claim
2. New World Translation - LOL!
3. Septuagint - WRONG. It does not translate as you claim
4. Jerusalem Bible - ???. haven't looked at it.
5. Moffatt - WRONG. It does not translate as you claim
6. Lamsa (Peshitta Aramaic) - WRONG. It does not translate as you claim
7. American Standard Version - Definately WRONG. It does not translate as you claim
8. American Baptist Publication Society - LOL!

Nevertheless, I'll send you the dollar. Email me with the address.
Eriq

Either you didn't read the translations i referred to, OR you're flat-out delilberately...


Never mind. Each person can look them up for themselves.
Chuck Baldwin
By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

eriqbenel
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Postby eriqbenel » 25 Jan 2008, 01:50

Either you didn't read the translations i referred to, OR you're flat-out delilberately...

Never mind. Each person can look them up for themselves.


I read them, there is nothing in them that makes it read as though the day begins at dawn.
Shalom in the name of YHWH,

Eriq

kathybyers2000
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Postby kathybyers2000 » 26 Jan 2008, 17:38

Greetings Chuck.

I just wanted to let you know, just in case you were feeling a bit lonely, that I also understand that dawn begins each day. YHWH lead me to the requirements for the day of atonement and also the book of John when the ladies came early to the tomb the first of the week (in the morning) and then in the evening still the first of the week they went to the disciples. He showed me that if the evening started the day, this text would have been worded differently to show that it was the second of the week.

Anyway, just wanted you to know that you aren't alone in that undersatnding. YHWH loves me so much He has me understanding MANY matters in the most controversial way. (It teaches me to be humble, and not argue).

Shalom,

kathy

eriqbenel
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Postby eriqbenel » 26 Jan 2008, 20:52

Yes Chuck,

I apologize. I will dismiss all of the Scriptural, historical and scientific arguments that I have accumulated ever the years and just believe YHWH spoke to Kathy!

Of course, it bothers me that he loves her so much and doesn't love the rest of us enough to give us a clue... I guess maybe Arnold and I are too afraid to believe in doctrines that are "controversial". We like the status quo..

:roll:

Good grief...
Shalom in the name of YHWH,



Eriq

chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 27 Jan 2008, 03:08

eriqbenel wrote:Yes Chuck,

I apologize. I will dismiss all of the Scriptural, ...
Scripture clearly show the Gen.1 creation days started & ended at dawn.
... historical ...
I'm not sure what historical records exist concerning the "Creation Week", other than the Scripture account itself.
...and scientific arguments that I have accumulated ever the years ...
Gimme a break! How on earth does "science" determine when a 24-hour day starts. Science can only be used AFTER man has either arbitrarily or Scripturally identified the starting point.
and just believe YHWH spoke to Kathy!
Oh! We're supposed to believe that HE spoke to you instead, and told you that King James' translators knew what He REALLY meant, as opposed to what He inspired to be written in Hebrew?:roll:
Of course, it bothers me that he loves her so much and doesn't love the rest of us enough to give us a clue...
He has given you the "clue" over & over, but you prefer to remain "clueless".
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

JMSchattke
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Postby JMSchattke » 27 Jan 2008, 06:35

Technically, it is clear from scripture that a day is the daytime.
And a night is the nighttime.

Now, in cases where the holy time is not just daytime, the Torah specifically says "from the evening of the ninth, until the evening of the 10th" or similarly.

Which would not be needed if it was understood that a "day" included the previous or the following night.
Wandering Kernel of Happiness

BrotherArnold
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Postby BrotherArnold » 27 Jan 2008, 13:37

kathybyers2000 wrote:Greetings Chuck.

I just wanted to let you know, just in case you were feeling a bit lonely, that I also understand that dawn begins each day. YHWH lead me to the requirements for the day of atonement and also the book of John when the ladies came early to the tomb the first of the week (in the morning) and then in the evening still the first of the week they went to the disciples. He showed me that if the evening started the day, this text would have been worded differently to show that it was the second of the week.

Anyway, just wanted you to know that you aren't alone in that undersatnding. YHWH loves me so much He has me understanding MANY matters in the most controversial way. (It teaches me to be humble, and not argue).

Shalom,

kathy


RESPONSE; Shalom Sister Kathy,

I Have an Answer to the above but First I Would like to Know If You Believe That the Seven Days of Unleavened Bread Begins at Evening Also?

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...

Brother Arnold
See www.lunarsabbath.info

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Postby BrotherArnold » 27 Jan 2008, 15:36

JMSchattke wrote:Technically, it is clear from scripture that a day is the daytime.
And a night is the nighttime.

Now, in cases where the holy time is not just daytime, the Torah specifically says "from the evening of the ninth, until the evening of the 10th" or similarly.

Which would not be needed if it was understood that a "day" included the previous or the following night.




RESPONSE; the above is not sound logic, the Angel that appeared in the fire and told Sampson’s mom and dad that he would be a Nasserite and was not to eat grapes or anything from vine and in the instructions, HE WAS NOT TO EAT ANYTHING “UNCLEAN“. By using the exact SAME LOGIC you could say that IT WAS ALL RIGHT TO EAT UNCLEAN FOOD, or why would he have to say this for the Nasserite if eating unclean food and was not normally OK?
The Commandments for not eating unclean food had already been established, same as the Day ends at evening and a new one begins at evening. Who are we to tell Him what is needed and what is not needed in His instructions?

Another reason the above is not sound logic is because many times He repeated things like,

He said, I even I am YHWH, that is My Name", He had already told them his name so the logic here is that this is a repeat or reminder, not that he did not know his name etc. With your logic you could say, if his name was YHWH then why would he have to say it?

I could even argue that they had just left Egypt where they began the day at sunrise because they were sun worshipers and now he is letting them know that the day is from evening to evening and not sunrise to sunrise. I could say if they were not keeping a sunrise to sunrise day in Egypt, then why would he have to say from evening to evening shall you keep my Sabbath? We know that he told them that the month Abiv would be the first month of the year for them, insinuating that in Egypt they kept the first month differently and now he is telling them which is the true first month. I could argue the same is true with the Day, they were keeping it from sunrise to sunrise and now he is telling them the right way. I don’t believe this is the case but it proves that you can argue anything.

If You Go to My Web Site at http://lunarsabbath.info/_wsn/page17.html you will see THAT IT IS ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE 24-HOUR DAY TO BEGIN AT SUNRISE. I agree that the 12 hour day begins at sunrise, but there is a broader definition of day that covers a 24-hour period of time but people insist on using the narrow definition only. Huge mistake.


Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

eriqbenel
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Postby eriqbenel » 27 Jan 2008, 17:04

Technically, it is clear from scripture that a day is the daytime.
And a night is the nighttime.

Now, in cases where the holy time is not just daytime, the Torah specifically says "from the evening of the ninth, until the evening of the 10th" or similarly.

Which would not be needed if it was understood that a "day" included the previous or the following night.



There maybe hope for JM yet! :mrgreen:

Scripture clearly show the Gen.1 creation days started & ended at dawn.


Wake up Chuck. If it was that "clear", no translator would have made the "mistake" of making it look the other way. And you would have seen it a long time ago. There are a multitude of passages, shown to you and your fellow false doctrinites that are "clear" the other way. You need to come up with a better argument that that.

Talk about your "same argument over and over and over"!

I'm not sure what historical records exist concerning the "Creation Week", other than the Scripture account itself.


First of all, "creation week" is not what you think it is. And we are not talking about that anyway. We are talking about the Scriptures and history of how these people reckoned the beginning of the day from antiquity.

Second, the fact that you are "not sure" is my point.

Gimme a break! How on earth does "science" determine when a 24-hour day starts. Science can only be used AFTER man has either arbitrarily or Scripturally identified the starting point.


Naïveté doesn't suit a man of your years Chuck. Maybe we have a different concept of what "science" is. I believe science is the study of YHWH's design, not some man-made philosophy.

YHWH's design, particularly as it is recorded in Scripture, is always the primary foundation of understanding.

Oh! We're supposed to believe that HE spoke to you instead, and told you that King James' translators knew what He REALLY meant, as opposed to what He inspired to be written in Hebrew?Rolling Eyes


Don't put words in my mouth Chuck. I never made such a bogus claim as that.

What I DID infer was that YHWH has spoken to the Prophets and Apostles, inspiring them to record His Torah, statutes and judgments. He has also given others knowledge and wisdom on certain subjects. These are tools He has given us.

What I am able to do is utilize these tools to determine the path of truth, rather than erroneously believe that the Scriptures, history and knowledge were all for NAUGHT as I sit back and wait for the "spirit" to "speak" to me!

BTW, if the "spirit" told you something that is contrary to Scripture, then it could not have been YHWH.

Finally, the translators in the KJV weren't trying to illustrate how a day begins either way! The words they used to translate are perfectly congruent to the Hebrew. "Interpretation" is where the problem is, not translation. I could use YOUR translation and still "interpret" it to believe the way I do.

But you fail to realize that you can't just use ONE Scripture to determine a doctrine. You must harmonize it with the WHOLE of Scripture. Getting "stuck" on ONE Scripture seems to be a pattern for you.

He has given you the "clue" over & over, but you prefer to remain "clueless".


You are snared by your own words, sir!

I suppose the perspective of a blind man is that the whole world is dark.
Shalom in the name of YHWH,



Eriq

chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 27 Jan 2008, 18:57

eriqbenel wrote:There are a multitude of passages, shown to you and your fellow false doctrinites that are "clear" the other way. You need to come up with a better argument that that.
How lame! You think your hyperbole is going to cower me into submission to YOU instead of YHWH's Word. HA! Think again! And you might provide some of these Sciptures you claim. Of course, anything after Ex.12 doesn't count, because that's when the change was made.
First of all, "creation week" is not what you think it is. And we are not talking about that anyway. We are talking about the Scriptures and history of how these people reckoned the beginning of the day from antiquity.
Great! Now almighty Eriq is a mindreader. If it wasn't 24-hour days, then what are you babbling about? And it IS what I'm talking about. "These people" are Adam & Eve, and their descendents UP TO the Exodus.
Second, the fact that you are "not sure" is my point.
That statement is typical of your assanine attitude. When you said there were historical records of how the days were reckoned, i assumed you understood my context, where i plainly said "Creation week". Rather than blatantly & dogmatically say that there aren't any, i allowed for the possibility that you were aware of some "lost books" that i wasn't, so i politely said i wasn't sure if there were any.

Then, in your usual gradiose style, rather than provide your "records" or just admit that you don't know of any, you chose to jump on the fact that i wasn't sure about it.
Maybe we have a different concept of what "science" is.
Yes, we evidently do.
Finally, the translators in the KJV weren't trying to illustrate how a day begins either way!
I'm really glad to hear that, because if they were, then they really screwed it up.
The words they used to translate are perfectly congruent to the Hebrew.
Absolutely not!
The Hebrew has the word "was" (or "became") twice - once referring to evening, and then once referring to dawn. And BOTH of these are AFTER His work for that day was completed.
Whereas the KJV has "were" only once, COMBINING evening & morning into a "day" - a total departure from the Hebrew text.
"Interpretation" is where the problem is, not translation. I could use YOUR translation and still "interpret" it to believe the way I do.
And that's your problem - you refuse to accept what the Hebrew says, and have to put your own interpretation on it.
But you fail to realize that you can't just use ONE Scripture to determine a doctrine. You must harmonize it with the WHOLE of Scripture. Getting "stuck" on ONE Scripture seems to be a pattern for you.
In this case, there are SIX, and there are no other Scriptures that describe the same time period.
I suppose the perspective of a blind man is that the whole world is dark.
At least that explains why, when YHWH said "let there be light", you perceived darkness for another 12 hours.

Sigh! :roll:
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

kathybyers2000
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Arnolds Inquiry

Postby kathybyers2000 » 28 Jan 2008, 12:45

Shalom Arnold.

You stated:

RESPONSE; Shalom Sister Kathy,

I Have an Answer to the above but First I Would like to Know If You Believe That the Seven Days of Unleavened Bread Begins at Evening Also?

Brother Arnold

I wanted to just point out that I was writing specifically to Chuck (so that he knew he was not alone in his understanding) and that I also did not ask a question, therefore, do not need an answer. But thank you anyway. I am already well aware that your understanding and my understanding of when the day begins is different so there is no need for us to quibble over it. I already understand what you do, because I have believed what you do. So, if the time should ever come, YHWH will take me gently back. And if the time should ever come that you should truly seek to understand what I do, I am certainly happy to oblige. But not for the sake of argument. I'm sorry, but I see the claws coming out from every angle - so I am graciously bowing out of this one.

Shalom,

Kathy

eriqbenel
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Postby eriqbenel » 28 Jan 2008, 15:55

How lame! You think your hyperbole is going to cower me into submission to YOU instead of YHWH's Word. HA! Think again! And you might provide some of these Sciptures you claim. Of course, anything after Ex.12 doesn't count, because that's when the change was made.


It seems like it's time to take one of your pills! Your mind is going sour...

You must have forgotten that we have had long numerous discussions on this subject where a MULTITUDE of Scriptures were presented. Arnold even presented them as "exhibits" A-H.

What "change" at Ex. 12 are you talking about? Better take two pills!

Great! Now almighty Eriq is a mindreader. If it wasn't 24-hour days, then what are you babbling about? And it IS what I'm talking about. "These people" are Adam & Eve, and their descendents UP TO the Exodus.


I don't have to read what's left of your mind. All I have to do is read what oozes out of it in these posts!

The so-called "creation week" may have been 24-hr days, but it certainly wasn't Sun- Sat like you obviously think it was. And BTW, you can't prove conclusively that Gen 1. is speaking of 24-hour days.

You have presented not one shred of any evidence anywhere as to how Adam, Eve, or anybody else reckoned the beginning of the day.

That statement is typical of your assanine attitude. When you said there were historical records of how the days were reckoned, i assumed you understood my context, where i plainly said "Creation week". Rather than blatantly & dogmatically say that there aren't any, i allowed for the possibility that you were aware of some "lost books" that i wasn't, so i politely said i wasn't sure if there were any.

Then, in your usual gradiose style, rather than provide your "records" or just admit that you don't know of any, you chose to jump on the fact that i wasn't sure about it.


Do you own real estate in the twilight zone? Go back and read the posts that have been displayed on this subject. You will see that Arnold has presented evidence from Philo and other places that prove how a day was reckoned.

So even if you don't agree, I don't know how you can claim you "don't know" of any. I made the assumption that I was communicating with someone capable of retaining information.


Finally, the translators in the KJV weren't trying to illustrate how a day begins either way!

I'm really glad to hear that, because if they were, then they really screwed it up.


Actually, they didn't. Let me once again reveal your ignorance. You wrote:

Absolutely not!
The Hebrew has the word "was" (or "became") twice - once referring to evening, and then once referring to dawn. And BOTH of these are AFTER His work for that day was completed.
Whereas the KJV has "were" only once, COMBINING evening & morning into a "day" - a total departure from the Hebrew text.


The word "hayah" does NOT just carry the meaning "was" or "became". For instance:

This is the same word that YHWH spoke to Moses when He said "I AM" (hayah) that "I AM" (hayah). This certainly cannot be construed as "was" or "became".

Tell you what, rather than do your homework for you, why don't you look up several instances in Genesis as to how that word is used and see if the meaning "was" or "became" always fits.

And that's your problem - you refuse to accept what the Hebrew says, and have to put your own interpretation on it.


Gimme a break. You wouldn't know what the "Hebrew says" if Moses beat you over the head with a scroll! You have enough problems interpreting the English.

In this case, there are SIX, and there are no other Scriptures that describe the same time period.


:( So sorry you cant see the error with that.

At least that explains why, when YHWH said "let there be light", you perceived darkness for another 12 hours.


No. I realize that there was darkness "BEFORE" the light. AND I realize that "light" and darkness existed at the SAME TIME on different sides of the earth.

YOU are the genius believes that "light" and "darkness" occurred in 12 hour periods in the first verses of Genesis. The genius that doesn't know that light and darkness can exists at the same time in different places. The genius who doesn't understand that darkness was FIRST, otherwise there would be no need to say, "Let there be light"!

BTW, genius, the Hebrew for "Let there be..." is "Hayah".
Shalom in the name of YHWH,



Eriq

JMSchattke
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Postby JMSchattke » 28 Jan 2008, 16:19

eriqbenel wrote:
Finally, the translators in the KJV weren't trying to illustrate how a day begins either way!

I'm really glad to hear that, because if they were, then they really screwed it up.


Actually, they didn't. Let me once again reveal your ignorance. You wrote:

Absolutely not!
The Hebrew has the word "was" (or "became") twice - once referring to evening, and then once referring to dawn. And BOTH of these are AFTER His work for that day was completed.
Whereas the KJV has "were" only once, COMBINING evening & morning into a "day" - a total departure from the Hebrew text.


The word "hayah" does NOT just carry the meaning "was" or "became". For instance:

This is the same word that YHWH spoke to Moses when He said "I AM" (hayah) that "I AM" (hayah). This certainly cannot be construed as "was" or "became".

Tell you what, rather than do your homework for you, why don't you look up several instances in Genesis as to how that word is used and see if the meaning "was" or "became" always fits.

And that's your problem - you refuse to accept what the Hebrew says, and have to put your own interpretation on it.


Gimme a break. You wouldn't know what the "Hebrew says" if Moses beat you over the head with a scroll! You have enough problems interpreting the English.

In this case, there are SIX, and there are no other Scriptures that describe the same time period.


:( So sorry you cant see the error with that.

At least that explains why, when YHWH said "let there be light", you perceived darkness for another 12 hours.


No. I realize that there was darkness "BEFORE" the light. AND I realize that "light" and darkness existed at the SAME TIME on different sides of the earth.

YOU are the genius believes that "light" and "darkness" occurred in 12 hour periods in the first verses of Genesis. The genius that doesn't know that light and darkness can exists at the same time in different places. The genius who doesn't understand that darkness was FIRST, otherwise there would be no need to say, "Let there be light"!

BTW, genius, the Hebrew for "Let there be..." is "Hayah".


H1961
×”×™×”
hâyâh
haw-yaw'
A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.

Exo 3:14 And God430 said559 unto413 Moses,4872 I AM1961 THAT834 I AM:1961 and he said,559 Thus3541 shalt thou say559 unto the children1121 of Israel,3478 I AM1961 hath sent7971 me unto413 you.
Exo 3:14
וי×
Wandering Kernel of Happiness

YHWHsavesdotcom
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Postby YHWHsavesdotcom » 28 Jan 2008, 20:34

The 'opinions' that Tom holds did not occur in a vaccum, or as he would have you percieve, the result of unbiased research.

I know 'Tom' very well. After he was exposed by some brethren a few years ago on some unrelated issues, as opposed to repenting and moving on, he sold the business that these brethren had built for themselves right out from under them...their bread and butter was taken (stolen) from them. He also placed me in the precarious position of choosing between him and them. As YHWH is my witness, I believed him to be in the wrong and sided to get him to repent and reconcile with these brothers and their families who were dependent on the business they had built together. As a result of my choice, and his decision to percieve it as a threat to HIS ministry, he fired me from the positions that I held, including that of administrator of his forums which I had held for some time.

It seems that it was also at this time that he decided to take the position regarding 'time' issues that he currently holds. It was no secret while I was there that I had been researching these issues of 'time' while there. In fact, I became a practicing 'lunar sabbath' observer while there.

After becoming estranged by the other brethren and myself as a result of his choices, it seems he also took up the banner to come against the research I had been doing. He banned me from his chat room and from his regular forums and moved all threads pertaining to issues of 'time', particularly as regards lunar sabbaths, to a 'private', hidden forum which was heavily censored and which he would allow me to post. I couldn't handle the censorship and left all together.

Nothing has been more clear to me than the fact that Tom has NOT been unbiased. It cannot be more plain to me, as a result of the personal attacks, manipulation, and censorship which I have endured at his hands for the past 5 years, that he is NOT unbiased (a perception he cunningly grooms).

With that said, let me quote the book of Jude:

'These dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings...(they) speak abusively against whatever they do not understand, and even what they do understand, by instinct. Like unreasoning animals—these are the very things that destroy them.

Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam's error; they have been destroyed in Korah's rebellion.

These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves...they are wandering stars (planets for whom the satanic week is reckoned) for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.


ObedYah :shock:

eriqbenel
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Postby eriqbenel » 28 Jan 2008, 21:09

H1961
×”×™×”
hâyâh
haw-yaw'
A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.

Exo 3:14 And God430 said559 unto413 Moses,4872 I AM1961 THAT834 I AM:1961 and he said,559 Thus3541 shalt thou say559 unto the children1121 of Israel,3478 I AM1961 hath sent7971 me unto413 you.
Exo 3:14
וי×?מר559 ×?להי×?430 ×?ל413 מש×?×”4872 ×?×”×™×”1961 ×?ש×?ר834 ×?×”×™×”1961 וי×?מר559 ×›×”3541 ת×?מר559 לבני1121 ישׂר×?ל3478 ×?×”×™×”1961 ש×?לחני7971 ×?ליכ×?׃413

Here, the tense is continuing, complete... "i Am" hardly does it justice.


So what should it say, Mr. Hebrew scholar? I'd love to know.

Gen 1:5 And God430 called7121 the light216 Day,3117 and the darkness2822 he called7121 Night.3915 And the evening6153 and the morning1242 were1961 the first259 day.3117
Gen 1:5
ויקר×?7121 ×?להי×?430 ל×?ור216 יו×?3117 ולחש×?ך2822 קר×?7121 לילה3915 ויהי1961 ערב6153 ויהי1961 בקר1242 יו×?3117 ×?חד׃259
v\'yahay areb v\'yahay boqer - the tense is clearly "and then became"

Which you would know if you had a shred of understanding of Hebrew.


I would be extremely interested to know where your "shred" of understanding comes from?

No you have at least TWO places where the translators were wrong on this word. I'll just put my Scriptures down and wait for your version to be published because clearly none of the versions I have can be trusted...

YHWH be praised! Jonathan will finally reveal the "true" translation of the Hebrew texts to us after 1800 years of bad translations!
Shalom in the name of YHWH,



Eriq


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