“ Scripture reveals that between the feast day of Unleavened Bread and Shavuot (Pentecost) seven complete weeks of 49 days are to be counted with Shavuot occurring on the fiftieth day (Lev. 23:15-16; Debarim 16:9) — hence the name Pentecost (...in the Apostolic Writings) meaning fiftieth or count fifty. “
REPLY:
Lev 23:15-16
15 ‘And from the morrow after the Sabbath, from the day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering, you shall count for yourselves: seven completed Sabbaths.
16 ‘Until the morrow after the seventh Sabbath you count fifty days, then you shall bring a new grain offering to יהוה.
The command clearly shows the counting of the 50 days takes place after the 7th completed Sabbath. As I have said before, if one is interested enough in this topic the Scriptures clearly show:
Exo 9:31-32
31And the flax and the barley were smitten, for the barley was in the head and the flax was in bud.
32 But the wheat and the spelt were not smitten, for they were late crops.
The wheat and the spelt were not smitten for they were late crops. If the wheat was above the ground at the time the barley was ‘abib’ then it would have been destroyed also in the hail. If you do the math you will find that the wheat would only be about 80 days old at the end of the 7 Sabbaths complete. It takes 110-130 days for wheat to mature; if you count 50 days after the 7 sabbaths complete it brings you to about 130 days. It’s right there in the Scriptures. Check it out for yourself.
Emet continues:
“This counting of 49 days or seven weeks of seven days each does not take into account a “lunar Sabbath” week of which the last week of each month would have eight to nine days.”
REPLY: Wrong. First Scripture does not say to count 49 days, it says 7 sabbaths complete, which brings you to after the 7th sabbath including the new moon days. The weeks have 7 days each. You are assuming the New Moon is counted in the weeks; which they are not. This is how the 7dcc keepers count. Consecutively. As the Torah proves concerning the Sabbath of years/Jubilee; it is not a continual cycle. Why don’t you try dealing with that? We already have proof that there is a Sabbath system of years in place that is not continually consecutive sevens; as is obvious because the 50th year breaks up the cycle of sevens as does the new moon periods.
Emet said,
“ Again we see the fallacy of the “lunar Sabbath” ideologue. Perhaps, the indubitable issue facing “lunar Sabbath” protagonists is that the weekly cycle does not fit evenly into the monthly cycle. “
REPLY: Fallacy? Ideologue? Protagonists? Swaying the reader are we? You are only assuming it must fit perfectly into the monthly cycle. 7 x 7 = 49, not 50. And of course 7 x 4 does not equal 29 or 30. Again, the Sabbath of years shows conclusively that it is not a continuous count.
Emet said,
“If the monthly cycle were exactly 28 days in duration, the “lunar Sabbath” might make more sense logically. “
REPLY: Lean not on your own understanding. It is perfectly logical once you understand the Torah speaks of New Moon days, work days, and Sabbath days. Three types of days.
Emet said,
“However, the moon’s cycle is 29.5 days, and since half days are impossible this means that the month sometimes is 29 days and sometimes 30 days in length. Therefore, in the “lunar Sabbath” model the last week of the month will have from eight to nine days in it. :
REPLY: Wrong. Reiterating a false notion. See above.
Emet said,
“Regardless, this is the mis-concept of the “lunar Sabbath” which they believe and as you can read, teaches. “
REPLY: Please show where I, or anyone else, has “taught” a week of 8 or 9 days. You are only assuming that all days must be part of a week. That is a misconception because of the calendar you currently use.
Emet said,
“Yet Scripture is clear, in the Ten Words of Exodus 20 that YHWH expects man to work six days and rest on the seventh (Sabbath). “
REPLY: He expects man to work which means it is an appointed time, six days you work. (Lev. 23:2-3) Where in Scripture does it say that you will rest EVERY 7th day continually? Obviously you don't, there are Sabbaths that break up the 7-day continual weeks. We all know this. But you are saying that the LR is impossible because you have New Moon days that don’t fit in YOUR exact count? Yet you yourselves even have weeks that are broken up by Sabbaths or supposed Sabbaths. Yom Teru’ah, Yom Kippurim.
So why is okay for you to have weeks broken up like this but for the LR it is an impossibility because the New Moon breaks up the cycle of sevens? ? ?
Emet said,
“No mention is made anywhere in Scripture of resting for two or three days (a prolonged Sabbath rest) while awaiting the new moon’s appearance so that day one of the month (and the week) can occur.”
REPLY: AGAIN we have more misinformation. Some people might say that the New Moons are rest days/Sabbaths but the Scripture does not say this. You might want to clarify this to your readers instead of just misinforming them. Also, if you hold to this reasoning then it would be an impossibility for you to have a 7th day Sabbath before a chag Sabbath such as Yom Kippurim or Yom Teru'ah. You would ultimately end up with back to back Sabbaths, yet you say "nowhere in Scripture is it mentioned of resting for two or three days." But yet you do this yourself with your floating Sabbath. Unless you want to manipulate the calendar like the "Jews" so you don't run into back to back Sabbaths. What you have said contradicts your belief.
Emet said,
“ To illustrate linguistically, the Hebrew word for Sabbath (Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary 7673) is Shabbat and is related etymologically to the Hebrew word shuvua (weeks, Strong’s #7620) which in turn is related to the Hebrew word sheba (Strong’s #7651) which means seven. The meaning of the word Sabbath, as related to seven makes no sense if the week is not always seven days, as Scripture clearly indicates from Bereshith,”
REPLY: Where in Bereshith does it say the word “week” or “shubua” ? It is not there. You are trying to put something there that it does not say. Nowhere in Bereshith does it say these cycles of 7 are continuous. Again, it can be shown that in the beginning is represented by Yom Teru’ah which is a New Moon; which means you have a New Moon, six days of work, and then a rest. This is the pattern from the beginning.
You are still operating on the assumption that a week has 8 or 9 days – misinformation.
Emet said,
“ one creation account and from the Sabbath command of Exodus chapter 20. Since the lunar month of 29 to 30 days is not divisible by seven how can the week and Sabbath, by Scripture and linguistic definition, be related to the lunar cycle?”
REPLY: Please explain how the Sabbath of years is broken up by the 50th year. This should be an impossibility by what you are trying to show by your understanding.
Emet said,
“ Since YHWH instituted the Sabbath and the week of seven days at Creation, the “lunar Sabbath” must have originated subsequently and have been of non-Hebraic origination. “
REPLY: No. You have not done your studies in this area. You will find that the most ancient calendars are in fact luni/solar. Now if you want to prove your point, you need to provide an ancient calendar showing the months that specifically show the different days of the week. I have not seen anything anywhere I have looked that shows this type of calendar. It simply does not exist past the Julian calendar; which was an 8-day week, by the way. So please tell us – if they went from an 8-day week to a 7-day week how do you know they got the order correct? You need an older calendar to cross-reference the days with.
Emet said,
“Additionally, YHWH instructed the Israelites to gather manna for six days and rest on the seventh day (Ex. 16:22- 23,26-27). If the Yisraelites were keeping a “lunar Sabbath” then where is the mention of gathering enough manna once each month at the end of the month to last not just for one day, but for up to three days while awaiting the arrival of the new moon and hence the first day of the week? “
REPLY: Your logic is based on assumption. First of all, the gathering of the manna started on the 16th day of the month, first day of the week. This is in complete accordance with the LR as the Sabbath would be on the 22nd day of the month. As far as the gathering of the manna Yahuah said that there would be none on the SABBATH. He did not say there would be none on the New Moon. So your assumption is faulty.
Emet said,
“Let us further examine Leviticus......"And YHWH spoke unto Moses, saying: "Speak unto the children of Yisrael, and say unto them: The appointed seasons of YHWH, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are My appointed seasons. (Leviticus 23:1-2)
(3) Six days shall work be done; but on the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of work; it is a Sabbath unto YHWH in all your dwellings. (4) These are the appointed seasons of YHWH, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their appointed season. (Leviticus 23:3-4)
What then follows in Leviticus 23:5-44 is a list of the seven appointment times in their Seasons of YHWH.
1) Pesach
2) Bikkurim/Firstfruits
3) Matzot (Feast of Unleavened Bread)
4) Shavout (Pentecost) (NOTE: It does NOT say “Pentecost” Pentecost is used for a method of persuasion)
5) Yom Teruah (Feast of Trumpets)
6) Yom Kipurim (Atonement)
7) Sukkoth (Tabernacles)”
Each and every one of these appointed times above (Moedim) are given a specific lunar Date in the lunar month on which they must be celebrated, with the exception of Shavout. However Shavout is counted from “The Morrow after the Sabbath.” During the Feast of Unleavened Bread which in turn is based on a specific date in the lunar month. Therefore even Shavout is directly by the moon, another proof we must consider as well is all of the Feasts are determined by the Barley being Abiv and the sighting of the first crescent of the new year,”
REPLY: Here we see the Jewish tradition creeping into the belief. First of all provide the Scripture that says “the morrow after the Sabbath DURING the Feast of ULB” the Scripture does not say DURING the Feast of ULB. That is an assumption. The commands concerning the reaping of the barley harvest is simply this – when you reap its harvest. To make it happen is an invention of man. To wait for the barley to be ‘abib’ is a tradition of man. To sight the crescent and call the next day New Moon day is a tradition of man. These are not commanded in the Scripture. If you would go back and look in Exodus:
Exo 9:31-32
31 And the flax and the barley were smitten, for the barley was in the head and the flax was in bud.
32 But the wheat and the spelt were not smitten, for they were late crops.
It says the barley was in the head. That word head means ‘abib’ which means the barley was ‘abib’ before the beginning of months. The fact that the Jews watch the barley to make sure they get their first fruit offering at a specific time is Scripturally unfounded. We are instructed in Genesis 1:14 to use the luminaries to determine beginning of months, not down on the earth. If one would take the time to search the official Jewish determination of the beginning of months you will find that they can wait as much as two months if not more past the beginning of the year to determine the beginning of months because the barley isn’t ripe enough; which means they totally base the beginning of months on the barley rather than the luminaries. What barley did Noah see? What barley did Yoseph see?
Gen 1:14
And Elohim said, “Let lights come to be in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and appointed times, and for days and years,
Noah and Yoseph knew when the beginning of the year was and they knew when the beginning of months were and there was absolutely no barley to look at; which tells us they used the luminaries.
Emet said,
“ which also means ALL of the Moedim are also tied to an agricultual/Seasonal calendar. Which the Shabbat is not as the Shabbat was set up totally seperate from an Agricultural based calendar and was based on the day that YHWH rested from his creativeness.
We base the Moedim on the Moon as that is what YHWH meant for us to do based on Psalm 104 which says:
" Who appointedst the moon for seasons/ (Moedim); the sun knoweth his going down."
Therefore if what I am saying is true and the Sabbath is indeed NOT a Moed set by specific dates within the lunar month, then why does it appear in Leviticus 23:3, to answer this though we must first look at Leviticus 23:4 and see why it is almost a verbatim repetition of v. 2 of Leviticus 23.
" Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them: The appointed seasons of YHWH, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are My appointed seasons."
REPLY: Notice He said “even these are My appointed times”
Lev 23:3
‘Six days work is done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a set-apart gathering. You do no work, it is a Sabbath to יהוה in all your dwellings.
Let’s not leave out any verses. What did He say right before verse 3? “even these are My appointed times”; which means the six days work is done is an appointed time. Now remember, appointed time does not mean qodesh miqra nor does it mean Sabbath, it merely means the six days are appointed to work and the appointed times are according to the moon.
Psalm 104:19. Then it goes on to explain the 7th day is different, it’s a day of rest which there is to be a ‘qodesh miqra’. It is a Sabbath.
For anyone to say that the Sabbath is not an appointed time would mean that we could rest on any 7th day we choose because there is no specific 7th day appointed. So pick one in seven and you’ve hit the mark. No transgression because it is not an appointed time. That is absolutely absurd.
Emet said:
“[ Leviticus 23:3 The Sabbath]
Leviticus 23:4
"These are the appointed seasons of YHWH, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their appointed season."
It begs the question, why is the Sabbath placed in between two verses that are saying the same exact thing over a very short length of time? If YHWH trying to make a point?
If YHWH trying to make a point and is telling us that the Sabbath is a Moed then why did NOT list it with the other Moedim as well in verse 3. Yet, according to the Lunar Sabbathers argument, YHWH listed one Moed and called it a Moedim and then said again these are my Moedim and then lists another 6? Follow the logic it just doesn’t flow right for some reason, so lets dig a little further to see if we can see what that reason is according to the Hebrew linguistics.”
REPLY: Oh so we’re going to go into Hebrew linguistics so we can all understand this? So where do the Hebrew linguistics come from? The Hebrew Jews? Are we going to apply their understanding to brush something under the rug? Not me. Because the Scripture says:
Joh 14:26
“But the Helper, the Set-apart Spirit, whom the Father shall send in My Name, He shall teach you all, and remind you of all that I said to you.
1Jn 2:27
But the anointing which you have received from Him stays in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as the same anointing does teach you concerning all, and is true, and is no falsehood, and even as it has taught you, you stay in Him.
These are the words of Yahusha. You may trust in the Hebrew linguistics, but I will trust in Him. He did not tell us we had to learn ‘Hebrew linguistics’. Where do you learn the Hebrew linguistics from? Man. Nor did He tell us to study rabbinic teaches or Talmud.
Emet said,
“The reason for this is something called Resumptive Repetition in Hebrew Grammar; the Torah uses resumptive repetition to form a “parenthetic statement”. Resumptive Repetition is used to place a statement in parentheses. In English we would simply use the parentheses symbols, however in Hebrew we don’t have such a symbol. Instead in Hebrew we have, Resumptive Repetition and it is used to place a statement in parentheses.
The Torah uses these parenthetic statements when it needs to go on a tangent from the main body of thought, in this case the Moedim. When the Torah is done with a tangent it then resumes by repeating the last statement made before the tangent.”
REPLY: Tangent: : diverging from an original purpose or course : irrelevant tangent remarks
Irrelevant? Hmmm
Emet said,
“Resumptive Repetition means to: Repeat what was last said before the interpolation/Parenthetic Statement.
Parenthetic Statement means: An amplifying or explanatory word, phrase, or sentence inserted in a passage from which it is usually set off by punctuation. A remark or passage that departs from the theme of a discourse according to Merriam Webster.”
REPLY: According to Merriam Webster – how about according to what Yahuah really meant?
Emet said,
“So when YHWH says:
(1) And YHWH spoke unto Moses, saying: (2) Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them: The appointed seasons of YHWH, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are My appointed seasons. (3) “ Six days shall work be done; but on the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of work; it is a Sabbath unto YHWH in all your dwellings.” (4) These are the appointed seasons of YHWH, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their appointed season.
To make the point a bit clearer, in Hebrew, YHWH first tells us:
Lev. 23:1-2 YHWH introduces The Appointed times.
[Lev.23: 3 YHWH commands us concerning the Sabbath]
Lev. 23:4-44 YHWH introduces The Appointed times.
Leviticus 23:1-4 is a classic example of resumptive repetition, as the commandment to keep the Sabbath in v.3 is a parenthetic statement that has been placed in between two almost completely identical verses. As YHWH begins to speak of the Moedim in Verses 1-2, he then switches over to the Sabbath in a Parenthetic Statement which is a Holy Miqra but not a Moed. Then in verse 4 YHWH repeats himself by returning back to the original chain of thought and repeats himself verbatim to insure us that He is returning to the Original Topic of the Appointed Times/Moedim.”
REPLY: So you say that the Sabbath is not a mo’edim/appointed time. Let’s read it again:
[color=#000000]Lev 23:2 “Speak to the children of Yisra’ĕl, and say to them, ‘The appointed times of יהוה, which you are to proclaim as set-apart gatherings, My appointed times, are these:
You can put whatever fancy words on this or whatever spin you want to claim that the Sabbath is not a mo’ed. This is plain wrong and is not what the Scriptures say. In verse 23:2a –“speak to the children of Yisra’el and say to them, “The appointed times of Yahuah, which you are to proclaim as set-apart gatherings” This is simply telling us that Yahuah intends to tell us the appointed times which are to be proclaimed as set-apart gatherings then He proceeds to say, “My appointed times are these:” “Six days work is done”. So there is a differentiation going on here – we are going to find out the appointed times which are to be proclaimed as set-apart gatherings and then “My appointed times are these six days work is done” but the 7th day is different. It is to be proclaimed as a set-apart gathering. A lot of confusion being added for people to make their point, when we can read it very simply and understand. This verse specifically says the appointed times are these: six days work, 7th day rest. The 7th day rest is an appointed time and anyone who says any different is twisting what the Scripture actually says. Which only amounts to lies. Then they’re going to try and ‘explain it away’. We do know how Yahuah uses resumptive repetition but it’s not in this case. We can read ourselves. We don’t need man’s interpretation. [/color]
Emet said,
"“If we recognize the communication style in which the Torah uses Resumptive Repetition to create a Parenthetic Statement, we will see clearly that the Sabbath is NOT a Moed/Appointed time, but is Rather a Miqra Kodesh/Holy Convocation between YHWH and His people Yisrael. However you still may be wondering why didn't YHWH just make it plainer and not listed the Shabbat in v. 2. I believe their is a very simple explanation as to why YHWH put the Shabbat there in the first place.
Consider this, "Maybe just Maybe YHWH listed it there as YHWH is reminding us that all of the Moedim are SHABBATOT and not vice versa.
REPLY: I think you just stepped in something here. You want to get technical? That’s great cause I love to get technical.
1) Yahuah did list the Sabbath as a mo’ed – it’s right there for everyone to read, “your” argument notwithstanding.
2) Although Yahuah did consider the Shabbat a mo’ed you are insisting it is rather called a qodesh miqra – set-apart gathering. I agree with this – it is a set-apart gathering.
3) I’m glad you’re getting technical – you said, “Maybe just Maybe YHWH listed it there as YHWH is reminding us that all of the Moedim are SHABBATOT and not vice versa."
So how is it that you can refer to all the mo’edim as Shabbats when the Scriptures do not call them Shabbats? But you are trying to use the argument that you cannot call the Shabbat a mo’ed? IOW, the first and the last day of the Feast of ULB are never called a Sabbath! But yet you yourselves call them Sabbaths. Then you claim we cannot call the Sabbath a mo’ed? That is hypocrisy. What you are saying is you will determine what is called what regardless of what the word plainly says. But yet you try to hold us to a strictness you yourselves don’t adhere to; claiming the Sabbath is not a mo’ed? Talk about twisted.
Emet said,
“Just as YHWH spoke the TEN Words which in Hebrew have more of a conotation of being categories under which all of the laws of YHWH fall, so it is with the Moedim. YHWH gave us the Shabbat/Miqra Qodesh under which all of the Moedim fall including the new moon.
REPLY: Now you’re saying that Yahuah gave us the Shabbat under which all the mo’edim fall including New Moon?
You said previously, “which also means ALL of the Moedim are also tied to an agricultual/Seasonal calendar. Which the Shabbat is not as the Shabbat was set up totally seperate from an Agricultural based calendar and was based on the day that YHWH rested from his creativeness.
Emet said,
"We base the Moedim on the Moon as that is what YHWH meant for us to do based on Psalm 104 which says:
" Who appointedst the moon for seasons/ (Moedim); the sun knoweth his going down."
REPLY: Which is it? The former implies that the mo’edim and the new moon somehow fall under the Sabbath/miqra qodesh but the later implies that it all falls under agriculture.
See, we don’t know what YOU think Emet – are you parroting someone else’s work here. Is this true or false? If and when you quote someone you may want to see if they contradict their own point.
Emet said,
“However just because the laws of YHWH fall under one particular commandment doesn't make it "The Category" rather the particular laws are the details of the Category; It is if you will "The how to guide" of that particular category. This applies as well to the Shabbat, the Shabbat is the Category/Miqra Qodesh under which all the Moedim and new moons fall and then even the Moedim are further broken down into Chags/the three pilgramage Feasts. However just because the Moedim all fall under the Shabbat doesn't make the Shabbat a Moed and also doesn't make the New Moon a Shabbat either.”
REPLY: Here again you are picking and choosing what you are going to consider a mo’ed or a Sabbath, or appointed time. You are labeling these as you choose rather than letting the Scriptures label them. Here’s the truth of the matter – so far all we have dealt with is you trying to claim that the Sabbath is not a mo’ed. You’re going all the way around the block in both directions to do so, but after you go around the block with all your verbiage we come back to Lev. 23:2-3.
Lev 23:2-3
2 “Speak to the children of Yisra’ĕl, and say to them, ‘The appointed times of יהוה, which you are to proclaim as set-apart gatherings, My appointed times, are these:
3 ‘Six days work is done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a set-apart gathering. You do no work, it is a Sabbath to יהוה in all your dwellings.
So again out of all these rabbit trails to try to explain away the truth of what the Scripture is actually saying; anyone who reads this in truthfulness will surely understand that the 7th day Sabbath rest falls under the phrase: The appointed times of Yahuah that you are to proclaim as set-apart gatherings. Very simple.
Emet said,
“Most Lunar Sabbath followers would like for us to believe “
REPLY: Nice technique. Have you spoken to “MOST” lunar reckoning followers? SO here we go with more misinformation. Can anyone see that the reader is to be swayed by words rather than what the Scripture actually says?
Do you work for the national news companies?
Emet said,
“ that there is no difference between a Moed and a Miqra or that they are both one in the same”
REPLY: Can you quote somebody that has said this? Or are you just assuming because that is what you have heard? Or are you quoting somebody else’s false information? The truth is speaking for me, as a lunar reckoning observer there is a difference between a mo’ed/appointed time and a miqra/a gathering. For instance, six days you will work – that is an appointed time, there is no qodesh miqra. There is a difference. The six days that work is done is appointed and shown by example from Yahuah in Bereshith one. I have never said they are both one and the same. Obviously they are different.
Emet said,
“, however as you shall see that is simply not the case. Their first line of reasoning falls like this:
"The weekly Shabbat is a Moed. But just in case the resumptive repetition is still confusing us, we see in verses 2 and 4 that a MIQRA (#4744) "convocation" is always a MOED as well, Verse 3 very clearly tells us that Shabbat is to be declared as a MIQRA, and so by this definition, it must also be a MOED." As this was stated by GND above. probably quoted from Author, Rav David Pollia, article titled Is Shabbat a Moed 5/10/05. No apology will be offered.”
REPLY: We’ve already addressed your LIE. It is not by our definition that the Sabbath is a mo’ed it is what the word says.
Emet said,
“However the logic that the above Lunar Sabbath believer is using makes no sense at all Scripturally, as his logic would be the equivilant of declaring Sarah having Yitzaq a Moed of YHWH!!!!”
REPLY: You’ve got to be kidding? Yitzaq was born at the appointed time that is when he came forth. You were born at an appointed time. It does not mean it is a set-apart gathering. It just means that is the appointed time for one to be born. By the way, when a woman is pregnant she in typically so for 9 MONTHS.
Emet said,
““In the book of Bereshith, 18:14, it is written, "...is any thing too hard for YHWH. At the set time/MOED I will return unto thee, when the season cometh round, and Sarah shall have a son.'
In Bemidbar 28:2 it is written, "Command the children of Yisrael, and say unto them: My food which is presented unto Me for offerings made by fire, of a sweet savour unto Me, shall ye observe to offer unto Me in its due season.
So does the above author want us to believe that every single place where the term Moed shows up automatically makes the event a Moed?
REPLY: It makes it a mo’ed because that is what it says. But it does not make it a Sabbath or a qodesh miqra. What you are doing here is trying to use evidence that basically does not exist. At least from my understanding. If anyone in the lunar reckoning says that all mo’edim are qodesh miqras or Sabbaths are misinformed and speak not what the Scriptures actually say. Nor is anyone speaking what the Scriptures actually say if they consider the first or seventh day of Passover/ULB a Sabbath. It is simply not what the word says. So tell me, do you consider the 1st and 7th day Sabbaths? If so – show it in the word because TECHNICALLY this is one of the points that the Yonah theory rests on. The truth is, you guys are twisting the word to fit your understanding rather than looking at the word for what it actually says.
Emet said,
“Also does context, Scriptural linguistics or grammar, and the divinely inspired P'Tuchah get thrown out the window as well? It just doesn't work, as YHWH isn't a Yah of confusion. Would it be more Scriptural and logical to say instead of, "Shabbat is to be declared as a MIQRA, and so by this definition, it must also be a MOED", to rather say:
The Moedim/Feasts are decalred Miqraim, and so by defenition the Shabbat must also be a Miqra as it is a day on which a Holy Convocation is required. But the trickery lunar Sabbathers use promote just that.”
REPLY: The truth is you guys are the ones throwing out what the word actually says. You are basing your understanding on confusion. Like I said before, I don’t know who this guy interviewed to get his understanding, but this is not what all LR people believe.
Shabbat is a miqra because that is what is commanded. The Shabbat is a mo’ed/appointed time because the word says so. Your claims that the Sabbath is not a mo’ed totally defies and goes against your logic of keeping the Sabbath every 7th day. Are we supposed to rest EVERY seventh day? If your answer to this is yes, then it IS an appointed time to do something.
Your whole objective is to take away the meaning of appointed time in relationship and then turn around and suggest that it is a law to rest every 7th day? How can it be a law to rest every 7th day if it is not an appointed time? If it’s not an appointed time then you can rest any 7th day you choose; which would include the LR, the ‘Sunday’ keepers, the Islamics, etc…
Talk about confusion!
Emet said,
“A Miqra Qodesh is simply to have a Holy Assembly or gathering on days that YHWH appoints as Shabbatot to hear a Reading.”
REPLY: No, this is incorrect according to the Torah. Now what you are saying is that all qodesh miqras are Sabbaths. This simply is not true according to the Torah. There are qodesh miqras that are appointed times that are NOT Sabbaths.
You are doing the same thing you claim the LR people do. There is a word for that.
Emet said,
“Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon***
4744: miqra' - a convocation, a convoking, a reading, a calling together
a) a convocation, a sacred assembly
b) a convoking
c) a reading”
REPLY: The definition of miqra does not say anything about it being a Sabbath. Which you have inferred above, but as we can see by the definition, Sabbath/cease/rest is not mentioned. So it is not mandatory that a miqra is a Sabbath. That is an ASSUMPTION.
Emet said,
“The word Miqra NEVER means APPOINTED TIME, it means a HOLY GATHERING. Another argument presented by the lunar Sabbath believers that the Shabbat is a Moed, is because of the fact that the word Shabbat is mentioned in the same verse as the Moedim.”
REPLY: No, the LR people believe the Sabbath is an appointed time because that is what the WORD says it is.
Emet said,
“ Let me illustrate..... "on the Sabbaths, on the New Moons, and on the MOEDIM" - 1Ch.23:31
"on the Sabbaths, and on the New Moons, and on the MOEDIM"- 2Ch.2:3(Heb)"on the Sabbaths, and on the New Moons, and on the MOEDIM"- 2Ch.8:13"on the Sabbaths, and on the New Moons, and on the MOEDIM"-2Ch.31:3 "of the Sabbaths, of the new moons, on the MOEDIM" - Neh.10:34(Heb)"and of the new moons, and of all the MOEDIM" - Ez.3:5"new moon and Sabbath, the calling of MIQRA" "your new moons and your MOEDIM" - Is.1:13-14"in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the Sabbaths, in all the MOEDIM" - Ezk.45:17
All of these verses are best understood as breakdowns of the Main category which is Miqra as I have already pointed out but repeat here specifically to drive the point.”
REPLY: You are trying to point out that the Sabbaths are different than the mo’edim; these verses you have provided prove my point that all mo’edim are not Sabbaths.
‘on the Sabbaths’ – Sabbaths consist by Yahuah determining whether it is a Sabbath or not. All mo’edim are not Sabbaths and of course they are not New Moons. That is why you see the three categories. The Sabbaths are what Yahuah has determined to be Sabbaths, the New Moons are determined by the moon itself, but not all New Moons are listed as mo’edim, thus you have the three groups. The group of Sabbaths do not included first and seventh day of Passover/ULB or first fruits of the barley harvest and I also believe the first-fruits of the wheat harvest are not Sabbaths but they are mo’edim. But notice how it says Sabbaths and New Moons? If the New Moon of the 7th month is a Sabbath; which it is, then it is included with the Sabbaths and not the New Moons – can you see how the New Moon of the 7th month can be placed under Sabbaths or New Moons or mo’edim? Like I said, not all mo’edim are Sabbaths. But this is what you are trying to claim – that they are. And then try to say we can’t say the Sabbath is a mo’ed. So if you can understand what I wrote and you look into this yourself you will find that the verses you quoted do nothing for your case.
Emet said,
“Just as YHWH spoke the TEN Words which in Hebrew have more of a conotation of being categories under which all of the laws of YHWH fall, so it is with the Moedim. YHWH gave us the Shabbat/Miqra Qodesh under which all of the Moedim fall including the new moon. However just because the laws of YHWH fall under one particular commandment doesn't make it "The Category" rather the particular laws are the details of the Category. This applies as well to the Shabbat, the Shabbat is the Category/Miqra Qodesh under which all the Moedim and new moons fall”
REPLY: No. The Shabbat falls under the category of an appointed time. You know, “these are My appointed times”.
Emet said,
“ and then even the Moedim are further broken down into Chags/the three pilgramage Feasts. However just because the Moedim all fall under the Shabbat doesn't make the Shabbat a Moed and also doesn't make the New Moon a Shabbat either.”
REPLY: Here you go with your false assumptions again; calling the New Moon a Sabbath. There is only one New Moon that is a Sabbath – the 7th. Why do you continually try to beat it into the readers’ minds that all LR observers consider all New Moons a Sabbath. This is incorrect. They’re not even listed under the appointed times!
You know, Hitler said if you tell a lie long enough and loud enough the people will believe it.
Emet said,
“Also many will quote the fact that in the Talmud, the Rabbaim put under the section titled Moed, the Shabbat so therefore many good hearted people conclude that the Shabbat is a Moed according to Rabbinical Yahudaism.”
REPLY: So you’re going to try to tie us in with Rabbinical Yahudaism? Do you really think this is how we ALL determine the Sabbath is a mo’ed? That is so bogus. Here again you are trying to trick the reader into thinking we’re somehow following the ‘rabbinics’ or ‘talmud’. Or somehow twisting what they are saying. We don’t read the Talmud. The fact is, the Sabbath is a mo’ed because that is what the Scriptures say and apparently even these Talmud people could understand that is what the word says. You know before the restoration of the LR came along you would have probably called the Sabbath an appointed time but because of the LR restoration now has caused you to back pedal and explain it away by saying the Sabbath is not a mo’ed. That is what you are basing your arguments on.
Lev 23:2-3
2 “Speak to the children of Yisra’ĕl, and say to them, ‘The appointed times of יהוה, which you are to proclaim as set-apart gatherings, My appointed times, are these:
3 ‘Six days work is done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a set-apart gathering. You do no work, it is a Sabbath to יהוה in all your dwellings.
We can read. How dare you try to tell us it’s saying something it doesn’t to protect your own interests.
Emet said,
“ But that simply is not the case. Here is Rabbinical Proofs that Shabbat is NOT a Moed ****
Moed ("Festivals") is the second Order of the Mishnah, also the Tosefta and Talmud, of the six orders of the Mishna, Moed is the third shortest. The order of Moed includes the following 12 treatises:”
[b]REPLY:[/b] Now you’re going to quote the rabbinics to prove your point? That’s rich. So we’re okay to listen to the rabbinics when YOU say, and how YOU understand and when they support YOUR doctrine. LOLOLOL
Emet said,
“What most pro-Shabbat Moed teachers will tell you is this, "If Shabbat isn't a Moed according to our Rabbaim then why is it listed under the Section in Talmud on the Moedim?"
REPLY: What MOST teachers? I have never heard anyone that observes LR to use the Talmud to support the understanding.
Lev 23:2-3
2 “Speak to the children of Yisra’ĕl, and say to them, ‘The appointed times of יהוה, which you are to proclaim as set-apart gatherings, My appointed times, are these:
3 ‘Six days work is done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a set-apart gathering. You do no work, it is a Sabbath to יהוה in all your dwellings.
Emet said,
“However what they won't tell you is that under that same section the Holy Rabbaim also listed these as well under the title Moedim:
Shekalim: ("Shekels") deals with the collection of the half-Shekel as well as the expences and expendature of the Temple.
Tannit: (Fasting) deals chiefly with the special fast-days in times of drought or other untoward occurrences.
Megillah: ("Scroll") contains chiefly regulations and prescriptions regarding the reading of the scroll of Esther at Purim , and the reading of other passages from the Torah and Neviim in the synagogue.
So as we can very well see for ourselves that this section contains other items that have abosolutley nothing at all to do with the seven Feasts/Moedim of YHWH.”
REPLY: Who CARES what it says? Where are these “most teachers” that use this? Quote ONE and provide a link. Because we don’t know for ourselves what all other LR people believe and personally I could care less what any of these rabbis or Talmud people say. It is the Scripture that calls the Sabbath a mo’ed. Here you are using a bunch of garbage to try and disprove what the Torah actually says. As if we need some kind of degree to understand those simple words.
Lev 23:2-3
2 “Speak to the children of Yisra’ĕl, and say to them, ‘The appointed times of יהוה, which you are to proclaim as set-apart gatherings, My appointed times, are these:
3 ‘Six days work is done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a set-apart gathering. You do no work, it is a Sabbath to יהוה in all your dwellings.
Emet said,
“ Unless the pro-Moed Shabbat teachers want us to believe that All the Fast Days, Purim, and Channakah as well are to be added to the Feasts of YHWH as well. Not likely.”
REPLY: I can agree with that.
Emet said,
“Not only that but if we truly understand what the Holy Rabbaim are saying then instead of saying the Shabbat must be a Moed, we would instead understand the Talmud as saying this:”
REPLY: HOLY RABBAIM? You’ve got to be kidding me. Okay everybody, better listen to the Holy Rabbaim……. NOT!!
Emet said,
“WITH this tract we commence the translation of the section of the Talmud called Moed (Festivals), containing the following tracts: Sabbath, Erubhin, Rosh Hashana, Yuma, Shekalim, Sukkah, Megillah, Taanith, Pesachim, Betzah, Hagigah, and Moed Katan. All these tracts are entirely devoted to precepts pertaining to the observance of the festivals and Sabbath, such as the performance of the different ritual ceremonies on feast-days, the manner of sanctifying the Sabbath, and the ordinances relating to mourning for the dead both on Sabbath and week-days.”
REPLY: Okay, what we can understand from this is you believe and follow the Talmud and the rabbinic teachings. Whatever happened to the Set-Apart Spirit? You act as if we need the Talmud and the rabbinic teachings for understanding. This defies the teaching of Yahusha.
Emet said,
“NOT that the Sabbath and the Moed are the same, but that they are different.
Lets proceed even further to see what Rashi one of the greatest Rabbaim had to say about Vayikra/Leviticus 23:3”
REPLY: The tables are starting to spread over here. You are basing your belief on these people? Calling them holy? And the ‘greatest rabbaim” ?? My Rabbi is Yahusha. As a matter of fact Yahusha said,
Mat 23:8
“But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi,’ for One is your Teacher, the Messiah, and you are all brothers.
Emet said,
“3. [For] six days…. Why does the Sabbath [designated by G-d,] appear here amidst the festivals [designated by the Sanhedrin]? To teach you that whoever desecrates the festivals is considered [to have transgressed as severely] as if he had desecrated the Sabbath, and that whoever who fulfills the festivals is considered as if he has fulfilled the Sabbath, [and his reward is as great]. — [Be’er Basadeh ; Torath Kohanim 23:144]
Notice: it was Rashi's viewpoint that the Sabbath was NOT a moed but rather was equal in sacredness to all of the moedim put together. We can also notice that it was the Sanhedrin that announced the Moedim, but not so with the Shabbat as the Shabbat was set by YHWH and the Feasts are set by man's sighting of the Signs in the Heavens of when the Moedim/Faests must begin. Scripture CLEARLY indicates that the New Moon and Sabbath celebrations are two separate events YeshaYah 66:23; Yehezqel 46:1; Colossians 2:16 and not on the same day.”
REPLY: Thanks Emet! Now you have said it! Here it is again in case you missed it:
Emet said,
“Scripture CLEARLY indicates that the New Moon and Sabbath celebrations are two separate events YeshaYah 66:23; Yehezqel 46:1; Colossians 2:16 and not on the same day.”
REPLY: The New Moon and Sabbath cannot fall on the same day in the LR system. HOWEVER according to the 7-day continual cycle they can, they will, and they have.
IOW, it says the New Moon and Sabbath celebrations are two separate events, so how can you have a New Moon on a Sabbath? Or a Sabbath on a New Moon? It also says they are NOT on the same day. What are you doing? Trying to prove our point?
Emet said,
“In Yehezqel 46 Scripture again makes a distinction between the Sabbath and New Moon events as it lists the offerings made on each day. “
REPLY: Yes, we know this. There is a distinction between Sabbath and New Moon days and remember you said it yourself, “New Moon and Sabbath celebrations are two separate events” and also “not on the same day”. That is in total opposition to a 7dcc.
Emet said,
“Verses one through five discuss the offerings and events pertaining thereto accompanying the Sabbath day celebration while verses six through nine discuss the day of the
new moon. Then starting in verse nine continuing to the end of the chapter we find listed the offerings made on the solemn feast days. Scripture treats these three events as separate and distinct from one another. “
REPLY: Yes, we agree with this. If they are separate and distinct that would include the Sabbath. In other words because the 7-dcc Sabbath is a floating Sabbath that floats through the month it will occur on any one of these days, but yet you say Scripture treats these events separate and distinct from one another. I agree, it means that a floating Sabbath cannot pop up on one of these days. Thereby you just debunked the 7-DAY CONTINUAL CYCLE.
Emet said,
There is no correlation made between the Sabbath and any lunar events, new moon or otherwise.”
REPLY: Wrong. The Sabbath is a mo’ed.
Psa 104:19
He made the moon for appointed times; The sun knows it’s going down.
Exo 16:1
And they set out from Ělim, and all the congregation of the children of Yisra’ĕl came to the Wilderness of Sin, which is between Ělim and Sinai, on the fifteenth day of the second month after their going out of the land of Mitsrayim.
The manna began on the 16th day of the second MONTH (Lunar date) which means those particular Sabbaths were falling in line with lunar events. The 7th day fell on the 22nd, six days of manna, the 7th day fell on the 29th.
Psa 81:3
Blow the ram’s horn at the time of the New Moon, At the full moon, on our festival day.
The Feast of ULB begins on the 15th day of the first month; which is also a 7th day Sabbath; which is ushered by a sign in the moon – full.
The Feast of Booths begins on the 15th day of the seventh month; also a 7th day Sabbath; also according to the sign in the moon – full.
So to say that there is no correlation to the Sabbath and any lunar events is false.
Luk 23:56
And having returned, they prepared spices and perfumes. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the command.
They rested on the 7th day Sabbath which was the 15th day of the first month. Also according to the sign in the moon.
Gen 1:14
And Elohim said, “Let lights come to be in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and appointed times, and for days and years,
The luminaries are given to be for signs (full moon is a sign, no moon is a sign, quarter moons are a sign) and appointed times – mo’edim.
Emet said,
“Again in Bemidbar 28:9-10 we find listed the offerings and sacrifices made on the Sabbath while in verses 11 to 15 are listed those made in the beginning of the month at the new moon followed by those made during the solemn feast days. As in the Yehezqel account, the Torah treats these events as separate and distinct. Nowhere does Scripture link the Sabbath and new moon events with regard to the offerings and sacrifices made on those respective day.”
REPLY: Yes, you got it. These events are separate and distinct. Which means you cannot have a floating Sabbath. Now if you continue to read all the offerings that are to be made can you show me where the provisions are made for a Sabbath to fall on a New Moon? If you read the commands you will find that the provision of the daily offering is always mentioned as in ‘don’t forget’, but there are never any provisions made for when the 7th day Sabbath falls on a New Moon; or any of the other chags. That is why you are correct in saying these events are separate and distinct. No Sabbaths on New Moons. (except for 7/1) Which is in opposition to a 7dcc.
Emet said,
“ I know that they're presentations may may seem sensible by conjecture, presuppositions and assumptions, but that is all that it is based on, a sandy foundation that is NOT based on any sound Scriptural foundation. SINCE there is zero scriptural evidence to support a lunar Sabbath system, attempting to debunk the weekly cycle as a devil made system is all that they have and as you can clearly see, is non scriptural.”
REPLY: That’s funny. You use a twisting of the Scripture and rabbinic Talmud teachings to “prove wrong” what the Scriptures say.
Lev 23:2-3
“Speak to the children of Yisra’ĕl, and say to them, ‘The appointed times of יהוה, which you are to proclaim as set-apart gatherings, My appointed times, are these:
3 ‘Six days work is done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a set-apart gathering. You do no work, it is a Sabbath to יהוה in all your dwellings.
You think you are proving your own 7dcc by falsely ‘debunking’ the LR. I’ve noticed that many of the 7dcc keepers that attempt to support their doctrine do not have the Scripture to actually back up their understanding. Also every Sabbath that is found in Scripture is according to the LR, even the account of Messiah’s death is also according to LR.
So why is it you focus on debunking rather than proving the 7dcc from the Scriptures? The LR has provided many Scriptural proofs and you claim there is zero. But you are wrong. You spend more time trying to debunk rather than proving your own belief. As I have said before, the Sabbath of years/Jubilee proves that the Sabbath of years is not a continual cycle which is an indication that the weekly cycle does not have to maintain a continual repetitious cycle of sevens. But it seems you ignore many points the LR people bring out and focus only on false assumptions that everybody that keeps the LR believes the same way. If you think you can prove the 7dcc by debunking the LR then why can’t you accept our refute to the typical Yonah understanding to prove that your 7dcc did not exist during the impalement. We offer this truth about the Yonah understanding to show that your 7dcc and the manner of your understanding of the Yonah parable to be false. You claim 3d3n in the grave but this is not what occurred according to the Scriptures. The Scriptures record the day of the impalement (14), the Sabbath that they rested on was the 15, the day of the first-fruits was the 16th; there is no other order in Scripture other than this and it is the same order of the children of Yisra’el leaving Mitsrayim, 14th lamb slaughtered, 15th release, on through until you reach the manna account that is still according to the LR. So please, go back and read my rebuttal to your Yonah theory and prove it wrong.
Emet said,
“Brothers E and L contributed Talmudic research to these posts... as well as linguistical comprehension of Hebraic grammar usages in Torah.”
REPLY: And Emet, why don’t you try doing this yourself rather than copying and pasting other people’s work. And you say I plagiarize? Granted you did say that you got it from E and L or whatever, but the fact is you did not do the labor yourself. As I have done with your response. Do you call yourself a good Berean? Relying on other people’s work rather than doing your own?
As you have said E and L contributed – does that mean that you have taken from E and L and have composed this whole rebuttal? Did you actually do any of it yourself? Because truthfully I cannot discern when E or L is being quoted or what you have spoken yourself. It is all ran together. It would be appreciated to be a little clearer on when and where who is contributing what.