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Three days and three nights

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eriqbenel
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Postby eriqbenel » 02 Dec 2007, 17:05

chuckbaldwin wrote:Sorry, Matthew, but it appears that you don't know the meaning of the word "SINCE". It means "AFTER", NOT "including".

Please excuse the pagan names, but...

Thursday is the 5th day of the week,
but it is the 4th day since Sunday.

If that's not clear, then we'll have to agree to disagree. :mrgreen:


It is Chuck who doesn't know what "since" means. At least not according to these world renowned dictionaries of the English language:

Merriam Webster’s Dictionary
1 : from a definite past time until now <has>
2 : before the present time : AGO <long>
3 : after a time in the past : SUBSEQUENTLY <has since become
Cambridge Dictionary
Since:-- from a particular time in the past until a later time, or until now:
Adverb
Emma went to work in New York a year ago, and we haven't seen her since.
He started working for the company when he left school, and has been there ever since (= and is still there).
I've long since (= long ago) forgotten any Latin I ever learned.
Preposition
England have not won the World Cup in football since 1966.
Conjunction
I've been very busy since I came back from holiday.




Oxford Dictionary
since
• preposition; in the period between (the time mentioned) and the time under consideration.

• conjunction; 1 during or in the time after. 2 for the reason that; because.

• adverb; 1 from the time mentioned until the present or the time under consideration. 2 ago.



Encarta® World English Dictionary
since : a grammatical word used to indicate that a situation has continued from a particular time or event in the past
1. prep conj happening at some point or points after the stated period of time or event
2. adv at some point between then and now
3. conj because, seeing that



American Heritage Dictionary
ADVERB:1. From then until now or between then and now:
They left town and haven't been here since. 2. Before now; ago: a name long since forgotten. 3. After some point in the past; at a subsequent time: My friend has since married and moved to California.
PREPOSITION:1. Continuously from: They have been friends since childhood. 2. Intermittently from: She's been skiing since childhood.
CONJUNCTION:1. During the period subsequent to the time when: He hasn't been home since he graduated. 2. Continuously from the time when: They have been friends ever since they were in grade school. 3. Inasmuch as; because: Since you're not interested, I won't tell you about it.


I don't know what dictionary Chuck uses, but these dictionaries paint a different picture. All of these dictionaries show that "Since" absolutely means from a particular or definite point in time past until a later time. It does NOT just mean "After an event", but from the event forward.

More significant than the meaning of "Since", these definitions also show that some are either unwilling or unable to thoroughly evaluate their beliefs to make sure they are true, but would rather stubbornly hold on to flawed notions no matter what.

Notice what Cleopas didn't say: He didn't say, "There has been three days since” He said "Today, is the third day since.. i.e., from the crucifixion until the conversation with Messiah.

Corresponding beautifully, not only with Scripture, but also with these dictionaries and with the Lunar Sabbath.
Shalom in the name of YHWH,

Eriq

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Postby chuckbaldwin » 03 Dec 2007, 03:02

Eriq,

Interestingly, none of the Dictionaries you quoted from addressed the specific sentence structure of Luke 24 - "'X' is the 'nth' day SINCE 'Y'" - in any of their examples.

I'll concede that the usage of "since" CAN be inclusive, but not that it always HAS TO BE.

If i said "today is the 1st day SINCE my birthday", i would obviously mean that it's the day AFTER my birthday.
Chuck Baldwin
By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

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Postby eriqbenel » 05 Dec 2007, 02:45

chuckbaldwin wrote:Eriq,

I'll concede that the usage of "since" CAN be inclusive, but not that it always HAS TO BE.

If i said "today is the 1st day SINCE my birthday", i would obviously mean that it's the day AFTER my birthday.


Chuck,

I never said that it "HAS TO BE". My contention is, you have insisted that the passage in question is absolutely NOT using it that way.

Not only that, you have implied, insinuated and outright claimed that anyone who doesn't see the word in this passage the way YOU believe it should be seen doesn't "know the meaning of the word"!

The reason I wrote the above was to show YOU that the "meaning of the word" certainly DOES fit our interpretation of the passage in every logical and consistant way.

Interestingly, none of the Dictionaries you quoted from addressed the specific sentence structure of Luke 24 - "'X' is the 'nth' day SINCE 'Y'" - in any of their examples.


YES THEY DO! Every one of them give an example of how the word is used to INCLUDE the starting point in the count. You are just being argumentative and tap dancing around the fact that your interpretation of the passage is not as solid as you have stated.


If i said "today is the 1st day SINCE my birthday", i would obviously mean that it's the day AFTER my birthday.


Here we go round in circles! You can "say" that as much as you'd like. You can use the word since that way in as many examples as you like all day and all night and it still won't change the fact that the word is just as commonly used ANOTHER way (that is, to INCLUDE the starting point) and that the passage in question is NOT using the word like your examples, but in the "inclusive" way we have described.
Shalom in the name of YHWH,



Eriq

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Postby chuckbaldwin » 05 Dec 2007, 04:15

eriqbenel wrote:
chuckbaldwin wrote:I'll concede that the usage of "since" CAN be inclusive, but not that it always HAS TO BE.
I never said that it "HAS TO BE". My contention is, you have insisted that the passage in question is absolutely NOT using it that way.
Eriq, you are correct in that contention.
Not only that, you have implied, insinuated and outright claimed that anyone who doesn't see the word in this passage the way YOU believe it should be seen doesn't "know the meaning of the word"!
Congrats on the proper use of "implied".:D However, the verb "outright claimed" supercedes the 2 weaker verbs (implied & insinuated), so they are redundant and therefore unnecessary. Oops! There goes the "grammar police" again; sorry.:D Anyway, i'll concede that my "claim" was overstated, and BOTH meanings are possible.
The reason I wrote the above was to show YOU that the "meaning of the word" certainly DOES fit our interpretation of the passage in every logical and consistant way.
I'll agree that it fits, UNTIL it runs up against the "3 days & 3 nights"; and THAT's why i hold to the other interpretation.
Interestingly, none of the Dictionaries you quoted from addressed the specific sentence structure of Luke 24 - "'X' is the 'nth' day SINCE 'Y'" - in any of their examples.
YES THEY DO!
NO, Eriq, THEY DON'T. I won't waste time pasting every quote here; but the phrase "nth day since..." SIMPLY IS NOT THERE.
Every one of them give an example of how the word is used to INCLUDE the starting point in the count.
I'll agree in general, but consider the following dictionary example:
He started working for the company when he left school, and has been there ever since.
Normally, the above wouldn't be debated, until someone asks "What day did the guy start work?". Does it mean that he had a 2nd shift job, and went to work immediately (the same day) when school was out? Or does it mean that he started work the NEXT DAY? While both versions are possible, most people would assume the latter, in which case the "since" would NOT include the day he left school.
You are just being argumentative and tap dancing around the fact that your interpretation of the passage is not as solid as you have stated.
Such statements are non-productive.
You can use the word since that way in as many examples as you like all day and all night and it still won't change the fact [???] that the word is just as commonly used ANOTHER way (that is, to INCLUDE the starting point) and that the passage in question is NOT using the word like your examples, but in the "inclusive" way we have described.
As mentioned, i agree it CAN be used either way, but NOT with the alleged "fact" regarding the passage in question.

This is simply an "agree to disagree" situation. :mrgreen:
Chuck Baldwin

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Postby Watchman555 » 08 Dec 2007, 16:38


Shalom,

I feel very strongly that if the sign of Yonah does not mean three days and three nights (or 72 hours) in the grave, we should have a clear and concise understanding of what this sign truly meant. I know for the former understanding verses 39 and 40 have been singled out without consideration of verses 41 and 42. Also for the former understanding verses 39 and 40 are applied to the now and a physical understanding of three days and three nights. Yet verses 41 and 42 speak of a time of judgment with two examples, the men of Nineweh and the sovereigness of the south. Both of these examples are referring to a time, not in the now, when He said it, but a time in the future, which so far has been some 2,000 years. The day for a thousand year application"


2 Kepha 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with Yahuah as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.


I would like to repost the example from a previous post "


One example of a twist of Yahuah's word.

Genesis 2: 16-17:
16 And Yahuah Elohim commanded the man, saying, "Eat of every tree of the garden, 17 but do not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for in the day that you eat of it you shall certainly die.

Hasatan said:

Genesis 3:4-5:
4 And the serpent said to the woman, "You shall certainly not die. 5 "For Elohim knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be like Elohim, knowing good and evil.
So, hasatan was right ? ; because they did not die on that physical 24-hour day. Yet, Yahuah's words hold true, in that they did die in that day. So we know Adam lived to be 930-years-old, he did not live beyond the 1,000 year or millennial day. He did die in that day. The thing is, if we only look at it through a physical understanding of what a day is then we could be led to conclude that the Scriptures are false from the beginning.


I feel very confident that we can apply this same rule for the sign of Yonah. First of all, let's get an understanding of the phrase "Heart of the earth". Let's consider MattithYahu 11:1 through 13:52. All these events had taken place on the same day. Its interesting to note that 11:20-24 are dealing with repentance and the day of judgement. Going on over to 12:41-42 directly after the sign of Yonah, here again Yahusha speaks of repentance and judgement.

So let's examine that phrase: �heart of the earth"


HEART

#2588 " kardia
1) the heart
A) that organ in the animal body which is the center of the circulation of he blood, and hence was regarded as the seat of physical life.
B) denotes the center of all physical and spiritual life
1) the vigor and sense of physical life
2) the center and seat of spiritual life
a) the soul or mind, as it is the fountain and seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, endeavors
b) of the understanding, the faculty and seat of the intelligence
c) of the will and character
d) of the soul so far as it is affected and stirred in a bad way or good, or of the soul as the seat of the sensibilities, affections, emotions, desires, appetites, passions
C) of the middle or central or inmost part of anything, even though inanimate


Just by looking at the definition alone, there is absolutely no indication that the heart is ever representative of death, or the grave. On the contrary the heart represents life or seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, and endeavors; which is quite clearly taught in Scripture.


Proverbs 27:19-20
19 As in water face reflects face, So a man's heart reflects a man. 20 The grave and destruction are not satisfied; So the eyes of man are not satisfied.


Notice that the man's heart reflects the man and the grave and destruction are likened to the eyes.


Proverbs 21:2:
2 All a man's ways are right in his own eyes, But YAHUAH weighs the hearts.

Proverbs 14:12
12 There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.


Yahusha explained the heart right before the Scribes and Pharisees asked for the sign.


Matt. 12:34-35:
34 Brood of adders! How are you able to speak what is good " being wicked? For the mouth speaks from the overflow of the heart. 35 "The good man brings forth what is good from the good treasures of his heart, and the wicked man brings forth what is wicked from the wicked treasure.


I believe fully that this should be the context in which the heart should be taken. I mean, think about it, He just said this right before he gave the wicked and adulterous generation the sign, or parable, or Yonah.


Matt. 6:21:
21 "For where your treasure is, there your heart shall be also.


So if your treasure is Yahusha, there your heart shall be also. This is one of the keys to understanding that the heart of man is where He will be spending the three days and three nights.


Matt: 13:15:
15 for the heart of this people has become thickened, and their ears are hard of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, lest they should understand with their heart, and turn back, and I heal them.'

EARTH

#1093 " ge

1) arable land
2) the ground, the earth as a standing place
3) the main land as opposed to the sea or water
4) the earth as a whole
A) the earth as opposed to the heavens
B) the inhabited earth, the abode of men and animals
5) a country, land enclosed within fixed boundaries, a tract of land, territory, or region


Although in the definition of earth it does not refer to the grave, we do know that the physical grave is in the dirt of the earth. So let us go to the Scriptures to get a contextual understanding of the earth.


Genesis 1:7
7 And Yahuah Elohim formed the man out of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils breath of life. And the man became a living being.

Genesis 3:14
14 And Yahuah Elohim said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, you are cursed more than all livestock and more than every beast of the field. On your belly you are to go, and eat dust all the days of your life.


This is one of the oldest Scriptural understandings there are. It is fact that humans are literally made from the dust of the ground " or earth. Clearly in 3:14 this is where Yahuah had given the adversary the ability to inhabit the humans.


Genesis 3:19
19 "By the sweat of your face you are to eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are, and to dust you return.


Yahusha elaborates on this with the parable of the sower and the seed. Notice verse 13:1 states that it was the same day in which the sign of Yonah was discussed. Yahusha goes on to explain this parable to His taught ones in 13:19-23.

(This is another key to understanding the heart of the earth ~)


Matt. 13:19-23
19 "When anyone hears the word of the reign, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart . This is that sown by the wayside. 20 "And that sown on rocky places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, 21 yet he has no root in himself, but is short-lived, and when pressure or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 "And that sown among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the worry of this age and the deceit of riches choke the word, and it becomes fruitless. 23 "And that sown on the good soil is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and yields " some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.


This parable is very clear. Yahusha is saying that we are earth, described by the types of soils in which the seeds are sown; indicating them to be sown in the heart. This one parable here can conclusively give the understanding of "Heart of the earth" for all of the elements are there. So with all this taken into consideration, I will try to explain the "AlternativE" understanding ~

First of all, let us consider the Body of Messiah. We know Yahusha is the head of the body, and His body is made up of the members, or the body parts. Yahusha was raised the third day, in like manner the Body of Messiah will also be raised on the third day, but this third day has the millennial context.


Hoshea 6:2:
"After two days He shall revive us, on the third day He shall raise us up, so that we live before Him.


This is very reminiscent of the sufferings for Messiah in which He endured until He was raised up on the third day. In other words those who believe in Messiah spending two days or two thousand years suffering hardships, trials, and persecutions to be raised up on the third day as the Messiah rose from the dead on the third day.


Rev. 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones " and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them " and the lives of those who had been beheaded because of the witness they bore to Yahusha and because of the Word of Elohim, and who did not worship the beast, nor his image, and did not receive his mark upon their foreheads or upon their hands. And they lived and reigned with Messiah for a thousand years 5 (and the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended) " this is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and set-apart is the one having part in the first resurrection. The second death possesses no authority over these, but they shall be priests of Elohim and of Messiah, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.


So we can conclude that the third day spoken of in Hoshea is the same thousand year period that is spoken of here in Revelation; which is referred to as the third day in Hoshea. Now by using simple math we can conclude that it has been approximately 2,000 years since Messiah gave us a renewed covenant or two days. Now when He returns that will put us in the third day that will carry us through to the end of the millennium, in which the prophecy in YirmeYahu will be fulfilled or completed.


YirmeYahu 31: 31-34
31 "See, the days are coming, declares YAHUAH, "When I shall make a new covenant with the house of Yisra'el and with the house of Yehudah, 32 not like the covenant I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Mitsrayim, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, declares YAHUAH. 33 "For this is the covenant I shall make with the house of Yisra'el after those days, declares YAHUAH: I shall put My Torah in their inward parts, and write it on their hearts. And I shall be their Elohim, and they shall be My people. 34 "And no longer shall they teach, each one his neighbor, and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know YAHUAH,' for they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, declares YAHUAH. "For I shall forgive their crookedness, and remember their sin no more.


Now let us remember what took place on the road to Ammaus, and what Yahusha did ~


Luke 24: 25-27
25 And He said to them, "O thoughtless ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 "Was it not necessary for the Messiah to suffer these and to enter into His esteem? 27 And beginning at Mosheh and all the Prophets, He was explaining to them in all the Scriptures the matters concerning Himself.


Notice Yahusha began with Mosheh, �the Torah", and the prophets and explained how they concerned Him. Yahusha was explaining the Word and it was being sown in their hearts, which is exactly what will take place during the millennium. The Word, Yahusha, will be written on their hearts. This will take place not only now, but during the millennial period in which Yahusha returns continuing through the entire third day. Yahusha will continue to be in the heart of the earth, culminating at the end of the seventh day millennial rest period in which the eighth day will be ushered in, a day of new beginnings in which there will be a new heaven and a new earth.


YeshaYahu 65:17
17 "For look, I am creating new heavens and a new earth, and the former shall not be remembered, nor come to heart.


This Scripture here is the one that takes us to the end of the third day in the sign, or parable, of Yonah.

~ Greg

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Postby chuckbaldwin » 09 Dec 2007, 23:06

Hi Greg,

That was an ineteresting post. I think you have a valid idea, combining Hosea's prophecy with Yahshua's Jonah prophecy, as far as the thousand year spiritual fulfilment.

Of course, i also think that there was the immediate physical fulfilment, much like the "virgin birth" prophecy, since the sign was given for "this generation", that is, the one that Yahshua was speaking to.

p.s. It looks like the time-stamp is correct now.
Chuck Baldwin

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Postby JMSchattke » 08 Jan 2008, 16:51

wow, much flurry of posts, but nothing new from the lunar side except "it's all wrong!"

I'd need some scripture that clearly makes my timeline with two sabbaths and a full 3 days and 3 nights in the grave wrong, which you have not done.

If you have to use exigesis to make things that are stated clearly go wonky, I, for one, know what's going on.
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Postby Watchman555 » 08 Jan 2008, 21:29

JMSchattke wrote:wow, much flurry of posts, but nothing new from the lunar side except "it's all wrong!"

I'd need some scripture that clearly makes my timeline with two sabbaths and a full 3 days and 3 nights in the grave wrong, which you have not done.

If you have to use exigesis to make things that are stated clearly go wonky, I, for one, know what's going on.


Shalom Jonathan,

You need to do your math again. Your time line gives three full days and three full nights in the grave; correct? So how can He be in the grave the third day AND risen the third day? Is the gate open or shut?

Luke 24:21:
“We, however, were expecting that it was He who was going to redeem Yisra’el. But besides all this, today is the third day since these matters took place.

Clearly this verse indicates that they are presently in the third day since these matters took place. Discussed in previous posts.

~Greg

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Postby JMSchattke » 09 Jan 2008, 14:33

Simply, Greg:
"ταυτην ημεÏ
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Postby eriqbenel » 09 Jan 2008, 22:42

[quote]Simply, Greg:
"ταυτην ημεÏ
Shalom in the name of YHWH,



Eriq

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Postby JMSchattke » 10 Jan 2008, 19:06

Again, you blather about scripture, Eriq, and seem to indicate you have one in mind, but disdain to tell us. I'm not here as a pupil. I'm not here taking a test. If you care about what people understand, you would elucidate.

Instead I get the feeling you are looking at us "oh, they are so blind, hah, aren't they stupid."

Again, I say - I can't find a prophecy about the messiah being three days in the grave.
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Postby eriqbenel » 10 Jan 2008, 22:18

Again, you blather about scripture, Eriq, and seem to indicate you have one in mind, but disdain to tell us.
Instead I get the feeling you are looking at us "oh, they are so blind, hah, aren't they stupid."


No need to be so insecure... I simply formed the information in that way in hopes that some will investigate and discover the truth for themselves. The information has greater impact that way.


I'm not here as a pupil. I'm not here taking a test. If you care about what people understand, you would elucidate.



Maybe you should be a pupil sometimes, you might learn something. It seems evident through your comments directed at Brother Arnold that you are not interested in discovering what is truth and what is not, only in defending your position.

The information presented to you by Arnold, LBDW and myself has been more than valid enough for any reasonably intelligent Bible truth seeker to at least consider the possibilities. This is what a real truth seeker does.

Again, I say - I can't find a prophecy about the messiah being three days in the grave.


That's because there aren't ANY. But there ARE Tanak Scriptures that are a direct typology of the death, burial and resurrection of Messiah. These Messianic Scriptures tell you which ones:

1 Cor 5:7
Heb 3:11, 18 4:1-11
1 Cor 15:20-23

1. The "Scriptures" referred to in 1 Cor 15:4 are indicated in these passages. Tanak Scriptures

2. The correct timeline of His death, burial, and resurrection are indicated in these passages.

3. The argument regarding "the sign of Jonah" is dispelled in these passages

4. A key understand of when the Sabbath occurs is indicated in these passages.

Please compare the above Scriptures to the corresponding Tanak Scriptures.
Shalom in the name of YHWH,



Eriq

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Postby chuckbaldwin » 10 Jan 2008, 23:03

eriqbenel wrote:In light of the overwhelming context of passages, the current translation is the absolute best one to fit the intent. It should also be noted that there isn't any other translation available that agrees with your translation skills here.
Hi Eriq,

There is a translation that, while not exactly like JMS, makes it even more clear. The Berkeley Version renders it "... three days have already passed ...".
And the Book of Jonah was not considered part of the Tanak in the 1st century. It was added to the canon as a part of the Protestant Old Testament in the late 2nd century.
Huh??????? I guess Yahshua's mother forgot to tell Him that Jonah wasn't Scripture. He sure was unfortunate that you weren't alive back then so you could have corrected Him, when He quoted from this allegedly non-canonized book.

Also, i was unaware that there were any "Protestants" extant in the 2nd century. I thought the Protestant reformation was around the 15th or 16th century. Besides, what authority would a Protestant have to canonize Hebrew Scriptures? Maybe the 1st century Jews "un-canonized" it when they realized how Yahshua fulfilled it.
Chuck Baldwin

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Postby eriqbenel » 13 Jan 2008, 20:24

Huh??????? I guess Yahshua's mother forgot to tell Him that Jonah wasn't Scripture. He sure was unfortunate that you weren't alive back then so you could have corrected Him, when He quoted from this allegedly non-canonized book.


First of all, Messiah did NOT "quote" from the book, He simply made reference to it!

Second, there are several places in Scripture where writers made reference to books that were NOT considered Scripture then or now.

Book of the Wars of the Lord,
Book of Jasher,
Book of the Covenant,
Book of Nathan,
Book of Gad,
Book of Samuel,
Prophecy of Ahijah,
Visions of Iddo,
Acts of Uzziah,
Acts of Solomon,
Three Thousand Proverbs of Solomon,
A Thousand and Five Songs of Solomon,
Chronicles of the Kings of Judah,
Chronicles of the Kings of Israel,
Book of Jehu,

Also, i was unaware that there were any "Protestants" extant in the 2nd century. I thought the Protestant reformation was around the 15th or 16th century. Besides, what authority would a Protestant have to canonize Hebrew Scriptures? Maybe the 1st century Jews "un-canonized" it when they realized how Yahshua fulfilled it.


Correction, I meant to write "12th" century, not 2nd. The Protestants existed long before the "reformation". There is a difference between Protestantism and Protestant Reformationism, which did begin in the 15th century.

The book of Jonah was not even written until the 3rd or 4th century BCE, around the time Messiah was born. It was not considered Scripture in Messiah's day, though it was considered a book written by a prophet of YHWH.

The point is, when Sha'ul said "according to the Scriptures", he would not have been referring to Jonah.



And the Protestants had the same authority that Catholics had. What authority did the Catholics have????

The "Jews" theory has no basis in history. I would rather surmise based on facts rather than conjecture.

[/u][/b]
Shalom in the name of YHWH,



Eriq

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Postby chuckbaldwin » 14 Jan 2008, 04:31

Eriq,

Nothing you said convinces me that Yahshua didn't consider Jonah to be Scripture.

Among the books you listed...

Samuel IS Scripture (at least NOW it is).
So is the Chronicles of the Kings of Judah.
Jasher & Enoch should have been canonized, IMO.

And if you'll compare Jonah 1:17 with Matt.12:40, it sure looks like Yahshua was quoting it to me. But i won't quibble over that, if you want to call it a "reference" that's fine; it doesn't change the fact that Yahshua considered it to be authoritative, and a typological prophecy about Himself.
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.


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