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Three days and three nights

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Postby Watchman555 » 24 Nov 2007, 07:01

Chuck,

In Luke 24:21

Luke 24:21
21 “We, however, were expecting that it was He who was going to redeem Yisra’el. But besides all this, today is the third day since these matters took place.

Would you say this is not the same third day as mentioned in Matt. 16:21?

Matt. 16: 21:
21 From that time Yahusha began to show to His taught ones that it was necessary for Him to go to Yerushalayim, and to suffer much from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and to be raised again the third day.

And also could you tell at what point began the count to the third day for both Luke 24:21 and Matt. 16: 21?

Shalom and thanks,

~Greg

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Postby chuckbaldwin » 24 Nov 2007, 13:18

Watchman555 wrote: Luke 24:21
21 “We, however, were expecting that it was He who was going to redeem Yisra’el. But besides all this, today is the third day since these matters took place.

Would you say this is not the same third day as mentioned in Matt. 16:21?
No, i believe it was 2 different "3rd days", starting from 2 different points.
Matt. 16: 21:
21 From that time Yahusha began to show to His taught ones that it was necessary for Him to go to Yerushalayim, and to suffer much from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and to be raised again the third day.

And also could you tell at what point began the count to the third day for both Luke 24:21 and Matt. 16: 21?
For Lk.24:21 i start from the setting of the watch the evening of Abib 15: 1st day after that was the 16th, 2nd day was the 17th, 3rd day was the 18th.

For mt.16:21 i start from the burial on the evening of the 14th: 1st day after that was the 15th, 2nd day was the 16th, 3rd day was the 17th.

In both cases, the 14th was the 4th day of the week, and the 18th was the 1st day of the week.
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The Third Day... from the Sealing of the Tomb?

Postby ErichMatthewJanzen » 24 Nov 2007, 20:18

The most common explanation of Luke 24:21, by the 72 hour proponents, is that the turn of
phrase "these things" includes the sealing of the tomb. However, this claim cannot be
substantiated. The term, "Third day" or "Three days"? is used at least 12 times in the Glad Tidings
and New Testament Epistles, when in reference to the Messiah.

Mt. 16:21, Mt. 17:23, Mt. 20:18-19, Mk. 9:31, Mk. 10:34, Lk. 9:22, Lk. 13:32, Lk. 18:33, Lk. 24:7, Jn.
2:19-21, Ac. 10:39-40, I Cor. 15:3-4.


In each instance, the count of threedays begins with the death of the Messiah, not the sealing of the tomb.
One wonders why we neverhear the Messiah say that He will be delivered over into the hands of men, be crucified, and then the
tomb sealed and the third day rise again. The closest antecedent to the phrase these things in Luke
24:21 is the word crucified. In other words, it was the third day since the crucifixion, not the sealing
of the tomb.

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Postby Watchman555 » 24 Nov 2007, 21:25

Chuck,

No, i believe it was 2 different "3rd days", starting from 2 different points.

For Lk.24:21 i start from the setting of the watch the evening of Abib 15: 1st day after that was the 16th, 2nd day was the 17th, 3rd day was the 18th.


I do not understand how you have arrived at the setting of the watch. The Scriptures are very clear that the two who were on the road to Ammaus described the events which brought them to the third day that they were in.

Luke 24:20:
20 and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to be condemned to death, and impaled Him. 21 "We, however, were expecting that it was He who was going to redeem Yisra'el. But besides all this, today is the third day since these matters took place.

Notice all the things that were included in "These matters"?; he was including things that took place not only before the setting of the tomb, but also before His death. He said nothing about the setting of the tomb. The Scripture says that He would not see decay. So is three days and three nights enough time for decay to set in? Or start? Maybe we'll read some medical stuff to see exactly when the decay process starts on a cadaver.

Also, there is only one Scripture that I could find that would indicate that He was buried three days.


1 Cor. 15:3-4
3 For I delivered to you at the first that which I also received: that Messiah died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised the third day, according to the Scriptures,

But here if we only take "And He was buried and that He was raised the third day" we have taken away from the Scripture which says, "Messiah died for our sins according to the Scripture AND" Inclusive?

It seems in every instance talking about the third day they all include being delivered to the chief priest and scribes, to suffer, to be impaled, and to rise the third day. Not only is this confirmed by Yahusha Himself and the two on the road to Ammaus, but also by the messengers who were at the tomb.


Luke 24: 6-8:
6 "He is not here, but has been raised up! Remember how He spoke to you when He was still in Galil, 7 saying, "the Son of Adam has to be delivered into the hands of sinners, and be impaled, and the third day rise again.' 8 And they remembered His words.

So with all the Scriptural evidence of all these matters taking place inclusively to arrive at the third day why wouldn't we? I think the biggest reason is with this understanding it is impossible to have two Sabbaths in the timeline.

For mt.16:21 i start from the burial on the evening of the 14th: 1st day after that was the 15th, 2nd day was the 16th, 3rd day was the 17th.

In both cases, the 14th was the 4th day of the week, and the 18th was the 1st day of the week.


I understand exactly what you re saying here. It was not too long ago that my thought process was the same. But there is one major problem here that needs to be explained. The 16th. It was not a Sabbath, it was not a high day. Why did they not go to the tomb on the 16th? It was a regular day in which there were no restrictions on what to do. We could not say that they knew Messiah had to be in the grave for three days, because they did not remember about the third day until the messenger reminded them in Luke 24:6-8; mentioned earlier.

Concerning the sign of Jonah,


Matt. 12:39-40:
39 But He answering, said to them, " A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign shall be given to it (a wicked and adulterous generation) except the sign of the prophet Yonah. 40 "For as Yonah was three days and three nights in the stomach of the great fish, so shall the Son of Adam be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Notice this sign was given to a wicked and adulterous generation and that wicked and adulterous generation took the parable as being in the grave three days and three nights; which is obvious because they set a watch. My thing is why would we apply the exact same understanding to the three days and three nights as the wicked and adulterous generation did? Yahusha says concerning the parables:

Mark 4:9-12:
9 And He said to them, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear! 10 And when He was alone, those about Him, with the twelve, asked Him about the parable. 11 And He said to them, "To you it has been given to know the secret of the reign of Elohim, but to those who are outside, all are done in parables, 12 so that 'seeing they see but do not perceive, and hearing they hear but do not understand, lest they should turn and their sins be forgiven them.'

Yahusha's Words said that those who were on the outside all are done in parables and seeing they do not perceive and hearing they do not understand. To say that the chief priest and scribes understood what Yahusha was saying about the parable of Jonah makes these Scriptures a paradox. Because He said they would not see or hear (understand). How could Yahusha say that those on the outside would not understand and yet the chief priest and scribes understood?

Matt. 27:62-66:
62 On the next day, which was after the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees gathered together to Pilate, 63 saying, "Master, we remember, while He was still alive, how that deceiver said, "After three days I am raised.' 64 "Command, then, that the tomb be safeguarded until the third day, lest His taught ones come by night and steal Him away, and should say to the people, ‘He was raised from the dead.' And the last deception shall be worse than the first. 65 So Pilate said to them, "You have a watch, go, safeguard it as you know how. 66 And they went and safeguarded the tomb, sealing the stone and setting the watch.

So they set the watch according to their understanding. Yet I believe that to understand the parable of Jonah we must focus more on "

Matt. 12:41-42:
41 "Men of Nineweh shall stand up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Yonah, and look, a greater than Yonah is here.
42 "The sovereigness of the South shall rise up in the judgment with this generation and shall condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Shelomoh, and look, a greater than Shelomah is here.

Shalom,

~Greg

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Postby Watchman555 » 24 Nov 2007, 21:44

Luke 13:31-33
31 On the same day there came certain Pharisees, saying to Him, "Get out and go from here, for Herodes wishes to kill You. 32 And He said to them, "Go, say to that fox, “See, I cast out demons and perform healings today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.' 33 "But I have to journey today, and tomorrow, and the day following, because it is not fitting for a prophet to perish outside of Yerushalayim.

In these verses Yahusha says that He shall be perfected the third day. The day He rose He was perfected in the new body in which He received, the incorruptible one - not like the earthly one that sees corruption. The mortal putting on the immortal. Not that Yahusha was corrupt in any way, other than the sins of the whole world being put upon Him.

So, how did the perfection take place? Was it through spending three days and three nights (72 hours) in the grave? Or did the perfecting take place from the time He went to Yahrusalem and was handed over to the chief priest, mocked, scourged, and beaten, and hung on a tree to die, without saying a word in malice?


John 15:13:
13 "No one has greater love than this: that one should lay down his life for his friends.



~Greg


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Postby Watchman555 » 24 Nov 2007, 23:19


I believe these next verses show conclusively :shock: that the third day spoken of by the two on the road to Ammaus is in fact the same third day in which Yahusha and the messengers at the tomb spoke of.


Luke 24:22-23:
22 "But certain women of ours, who arrived at the tomb early, also astonished us, 23 when they did not find His body, they came saying that they had also seen a vision of messengers who said He was alive. 24 "And some of those with us went to the tomb and found it, as also the women had said, but they did not see Him.

Remember what the messengers told them?


Luke 24: 6-8:
6 "He is not here, but has been raised up! Remember how He spoke to you when He was still in Galil, 7 saying, "the Son of Adam has to be delivered into the hands of sinners, and be impaled, and the third day rise again.' 8 And they remembered His words.

I think that it is quite probable that when Merriam and Merriam told of these events they also told what the messenger had told them. I would think that if a messenger appeared to us that we would also convey what they said word-for-word. That would be why the two on the road to Ammaus did not fail to mention that it was the third day since these matters took place as it was fresh in their minds from what Merriam and Merriam had said.

Shalom,

~Greg

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Postby chuckbaldwin » 25 Nov 2007, 13:36

Since the total of the above posts is too much to respond to in detail, i'll simply respond to all of them in general:

I have explained my understanding the best i can, and we still disagree. The best i can offer is to consider the possibility of a 5th-day (thur) crucifixion, which i think would satisfy most of the objections mentioned. It would also satisfy the calendar of 30AD, in regard to when the days of the week fell.

Of course lunar Sabbatarians won't buy that, because it still would deny a 15th weekly Sabbath.

I will address one specific statement by Greg;
Notice this sign was given to a wicked and adulterous generation and that wicked and adulterous generation took the parable as being in the grave three days and three nights; which is obvious because they set a watch. My thing is why would we apply the exact same understanding to the three days and three nights as the wicked and adulterous generation did?
My answer is that it wasn't a parable; it was a plain prediction of Yahshua's resurrection after a specific period of time, using what was no doubt a commonly understood phrase - "heart of the earth". Since most here don't seem to understand what that means, that's why i let Jonah explain it; and he explains it as "Sheol" = the "Grave".

I hold no ill feelings to anyone because they disagree with me. If you guys are all comfortable with what you believe, then i'm happy for you. And i hope you will afford me the same consideration.
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The Third Day SINCE These Things

Postby ErichMatthewJanzen » 25 Nov 2007, 18:57

Shalom, Chuck,

It seems to me that Luke 24 and the Road to Emmaus account will not align with a "Thur." crucifixion, or rather a 5th day crucifixion. This would not yield the two men in Luke 24:21 to make the statement "Today is the 3rd day since these things" but rather "Today is the 4th day since these things."

The word "since" does not necessitate that the counting begins the day after the crucifixion. It is more logical and consistent to count the day of the crucifixion. Just as if I were to say that I've been working on this project since Saturday. Would that mean that I began working on the project on Sunday? I don't believe so. It would mean that I'd begun the project on Saturday.

To me this is just one the verses that lies against the 72 hour theory. I believe the only verse in the Bible that seems to support such a theory is Matthew 12:40. Every thing else in the Gospels and Epistles supports a 6th day crucifixion and a 1st day resurrection. When people ask me about Matthew 12:40 I usually explain to them that I'm not for sure what it does mean, but I believe I am for sure what it doesn't mean.

Your friend,
Matthew Janzen

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Re: The Third Day SINCE These Things

Postby chuckbaldwin » 26 Nov 2007, 03:37

ErichMatthewJanzen wrote:The word "since" does not necessitate that the counting begins the day after the crucifixion. It is more logical and consistent to count the day of the crucifixion. Just as if I were to say that I've been working on this project since Saturday. Would that mean that I began working on the project on Sunday? I don't believe so. It would mean that I'd begun the project on Saturday.
Hi Matthew, I'm only replying, because i respect you and don't want to be rude and just ignore your post (since i was addressed).

Your example above has a flaw, because the difference in wording makes it different from the Scripture statement. 1st, it doesn't use the "nth day" terminology, and 2nd, it doesn't say what day you're speaking on. Luke 24 does both. So i'll fill in the blanks.

Let's say you started the project on Sat as stated (breaking the Sabbath BTW :) ), and today is Tue.
You could rightly say ...
"I've been working on it SINCE Sat." OR
"I've been working on it for 4 days" OR
"This is the 3rd day SINCE I started." OR
"I started 3 days ago.


I don't suppose you'll agree that the 4 statements are equivalent, but that's how i understand it, and it is mathematically correct.[/u]

p.s. This Forum must be on Jerusalem time, because i posted at 3:37pm, and the time-stamp says 10:37pm - 7 hours off! :mrgreen:
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Postby Watchman555 » 26 Nov 2007, 04:23

Shalom Chuck,

Don't know what to tell you about the time stamp....

We have it set for GMT -5, and that's what it should be. Don't know what to say, 'cept maybe Yahuah wants it on Jerusalem time :mrgreen: :D

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Postby ErichMatthewJanzen » 30 Nov 2007, 11:02

Hello, Chuck,

Sorry about the delay in responding.

If I was standing in Tuesday and I had started a project on Saturday I would have to say, "Today is the 4th day since I started." This would be because:

Saturday = 1
Sunday = 2
Monday = 3
Tuesday = 4

I also would not say on Tuesday that I had started 3 days ago, but rather 4 days ago because of the exact same sequence I just mentioned. To use the number 3 instead of the number 4 in this scenario would be to simply dismiss what took place on the beginning day - Saturday - the day when the project actually commenced.

This being said, I can at least see how a 5th day crucifixion can be believed by someone and seem to be in harmony with Luke 24:21. However, there is no way to Scripturally harmonize Luke 24:21 with a 4th day crucifixion.

Your friend,
Matthew Janzen

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Postby chuckbaldwin » 01 Dec 2007, 03:07

Sorry, Matthew, but it appears that you don't know the meaning of the word "SINCE". It means "AFTER", NOT "including".

Please excuse the pagan names, but...

Thursday is the 5th day of the week,
but it is the 4th day since Sunday.

If that's not clear, then we'll have to agree to disagree. :mrgreen:
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Postby Watchman555 » 01 Dec 2007, 15:42

Shalom Chuck,

You said,

Sorry, Matthew, but it appears that you don't know the meaning of the word "SINCE". It means "AFTER", NOT "including".



I see how you have arrived at the conclusion that "Since" does not include the things spoken of before. In other words, it is the third day since all this took place, not including what took place. So, we will use your understanding of "SincE", and I'm not saying it's the wrong understanding of the word. Let us examine the following verses, to see exactly what the last thing was that the third day would be counted from. Now, let's remember that the two on the road to Ammaus were speaking in the present tense, meaning that they were in the third day from when they started counting.


Luke 24:19-21:
19 And He said to them, "What? And they said to Him, "Concerning Yahusha of Natsareth, who was a Prophet mighty in deed and word before Elohim and all the people, 20 and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to be condemned to death, and impaled Him.

This is the last thing spoken of in that sequence of events. Therefore, we must start the count to get to the third day after "Impaled Him". Now, it does not say "Since He died"?, â€?since He was taken off the stake", “since His body was prepared"?, "Since His body was put in the tomb”, and certainly not "Since they set the watch". The day that they impaled Him was the 14th and He died on the 14th. So wouldn't it be correct in saying their count started from the time after they impaled him (the 14th)? Which still does not leave enough time for Messiah to be in the grave for three days " three nights, or 72 hours.

21 "We, however, were expecting that it was He who was going to redeem Yisra'el. But besides all this, today is the third day since these matters took place.

On another note, the sign of Yonah is only mentioned in the book of MattithYahu. I have a few questions concerning this. Why was it only MattithYahu wrote of it? We know that a complete doctrine of three days and three nights in the grave has been propagated by this one passage. Why didn't anyone else feel that it was important enough to speak of? So, with that being said, Scripture says:

YeshaYahu 28:9-10:
9 Whom would He teach knowledge? And whom would He make to understand the message? Those weaned from milk, those taken from the breasts! 10 For it is: command upon command, command upon command, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little.

My understanding of these verses is to establish a doctrine we use these key components here. Command upon command; line upon line, here a little, there a little, to gain the whole understanding of the matter. Now, where shall we go in Scripture to study and understand that the three days and three nights spoken of in the sign of Yonah was expressly speaking of how long He was to be in the grave?

One example of a twist of Yahuah's word.


Genesis 2: 16-17:
16 And Yahuah Elohim commanded the man, saying, "Eat of every tree of the garden, 17 but do not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for in the day that you eat of it you shall certainly die.

Hasatan said:

Genesis 3:4-5:
4 And the serpent said to the woman, "You shall certainly not die. 5 "For Elohim knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be like Elohim, knowing good and evil.


So, hasatan was right ? ; because they did not die on that physical 24-hour day. Yet, Yahuah's words hold true, in that they did die in that day.


2 Kepha 3:8:
8 But, beloved ones, let not this one matter be hidden from you: that with Yahuah one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

So we know Adam lived to be 930-years-old, he did not live beyond the 1,000 year or millennial day. He did die in that day. The thing is, if we only look at it through a physical understanding of what a day is then we could be led to conclude that the Scriptures are false from the beginning.

Was the sign of Yonah a parable?


My answer is that it wasn't a parable; it was a plain prediction of Yahshua's resurrection after a specific period of time, using what was no doubt a commonly understood phrase - "heart of the earth". Since most here don't seem to understand what that means, that's why i let Jonah explain it; and he explains it as "sheol" = the "grave".


Let us look at the definition of parable.



04910 " mashal
1) Proverb, parable
1a) proverb, proverbial saying, aphorism
2) Byword
3) Similitude, parable
4) Sentences of ethical wisdom, ethical maxims

3850 = parabole
1) Placing of one thing by the side of another, juxtaposition
2) metaph.
2a) a comparing, comparison of one thing with another, likeness, similitude
2b) an example by which a doctrine or precept is illustrated
2c) a narrative, fictitious but agreeable to the laws and usages of human life, by which either the duties of men or things of Elohim, particularly the nature and history of Elohim's kingdom are figuratively portrayed.
2d) A parable: An earthly story with a heavenly meaning
3) An aphorism, a maxim
4) A proverb
5) An act by which one exposes himself or his possessions to danger, a venture, a risk.



Although the sign of Yonah was not expressly called a parable or found in the KJV version's list of parables; it still meets the definition of parable. According to 2b " an example by which a doctrine or precept is illustrated: Isn't that exactly what the 72-hour proponents do?

Getting back to line up line, precept upon precept: How does the heart of the earth represent the grave? Are there any Scriptures that use this phrase "Heart of the earth" to represent the grave? Isn't it possible that Yahusha was not speaking of three literal days and three literal nights (24-hour periods), when we saw this same similitude in Genesis with the expression "In that day you shall surely die".

~Greg

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Postby chuckbaldwin » 02 Dec 2007, 07:32

How does the heart of the earth represent the grave?

I will just quote the Scriptures without comment (other than highliting).


Mt.12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so
shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Jna.2:1 Then Jonah prayed unto the YHWH his Almighty out of the fish's belly,
2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto YHWH, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell (Sheol=Grave) cried I, and thou heardest my voice.'
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Postby ErichMatthewJanzen » 02 Dec 2007, 12:11

Shalom, Chuck & Greg,

Chuck, you wrote:

Sorry, Matthew, but it appears that you don't know the meaning of the word "SINCE". It means "AFTER", NOT "including".


Even if you are correct in saying that "since" does not mean including (which I'm not persuaded) it still does not mean the 14th shouldn't be counted in the statement mentioned in Luke 24:21.
Luke 24:19-21:
19 And He said to them, "What? And they said to Him, "Concerning Yahusha of Natsareth, who was a Prophet mighty in deed and word before Elohim and all the people, 20 and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to be condemned to death, and impaled Him.

This is the last thing spoken of in that sequence of events. Therefore, we must start the count to get to the third day after "Impaled Him". Now, it does not say "Since He died"?, �since He was taken off the stakE", �since His body was prepared"?, "Since His body was put in the tomb�, and certainly not "Since they set the watch". The day that they impaled Him was the 14th and He died on the 14th. So wouldn't it be correct in saying their count started from the time after they impaled him (the 14th)? Which still does not leave enough time for Messiah to be in the grave for three days " three nights, or 72 hours.


Greg, this is excellent. After Yeshua was impaled it was still the 14th of Aviv! Thus "the third day since these things" can mean "the third day from the impalement and still be including the 14th of Aviv. This understanding aligns with each of the historical counts in the gospels where it shows Yeshua to have been impaled on preparation day, which was a technical term to describe the day before the weekly Sabbath.

----------------

Here are some uses where since can be including the time period mentioned before:

1) He was elected in 1978 and has been president ever since. (Just because the election took place in 1978 doesn't mean we start counting the presidency in 1979.)

2) It has been warm since noon. (This would include noon, when it began to be warm.)

Shalom,
Matthew Janzen


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