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Posted: 09 May 2008, 09:18
by BrotherArnold
Shalom Brother WSTRUSE,

You wrote,

"Find me one place in the Scripture were the Passover or the Feast of Unleavened Bread is called a Sabbath or a Sabbathownn (7676 or 7677)."

RESPONSE; the Sabbath day and SEVENTH day are sometime interchangeable throughout Scripture, one and the same day. When He rested the SEVENTH day is referring to the Sabbath and when He says the SEVENTH day is the Sabbath and when it says six days shall you labor but the SEVENTH day is the Sabbath/intermission etc.

For conclusive 100% undeniable evidence that the 15th in the first month from year-to-year is referred to as the SEVENTH day, go to http://lunarsabbath.info/_wsn/page8.html and study, not just read. Truth has no fear of open debate or close scrutiny.

Brother Arnold

Posted: 09 May 2008, 16:46
by chuckbaldwin
The above assertion continues to be the most OVBIOUS, most DESPERATE, & most RIDICULOUS twisting of a Scripture verse that i have ever seen.

It is conclusively WRONG, and 100% DENIABLE.

Any credibility that Lunar Sabbaths might have otherwise had, completely disappears in the dark shadow of this last-ditch grasping for a straw that just isn't there.

Posted: 09 May 2008, 18:37
by BrotherArnold
chuckbaldwin wrote:The above assertion continues to be the most OVBIOUS, most DESPERATE, & most RIDICULOUS twisting of a Scripture verse that i have ever seen.

It is conclusively WRONG, and 100% DENIABLE.

Any credibility that Lunar Sabbaths might have otherwise had, completely disappears in the dark shadow of this last-ditch grasping for a straw that just isn't there.


RESPONSE; please be more specific.

Brother Arnold

Posted: 10 May 2008, 19:24
by chuckbaldwin
BrotherArnold wrote:please be more specific.
Specifically, the false assertion that the 7th day of the Feast mentioned in Ex.13:6-7 is actually the 1st day of the Feast.

Posted: 13 May 2008, 05:48
by Watchman555
Shalom Chuck,

Gimme a break! I don't believe that Yahshua was stark naked when He washed their feet.


:oops: I was not implying that Yahusha was stark naked, I was merely pointing out that Shemoth 12 instructs us to eat with our loins girded and Yahusha laid aside His garments. I think that it is quite obvious that for some reason the Last Supper and it's instructions are seemingly opposite to the instructions in Shemoth 12.

Shemoth chapter 12 gives explicit instructions on how to keep the passover. When we conclude our reading with 12:24-27 there would be no doubt in my mind that these instructions are to be done every year. I have no reason to believe Scripturally or otherwise that this was a one time event.

Shemoth 12:24-27:
24 “And you shall guard this word as a law for you and your sons, forever. 25 “And it shall be, when you come to the land which Yahuah gives you, as He promised, that you shall guard this service. 26 “And it shall be, when your children say to you, ‘What does this service mean to you?’ 27 then you shall say, ‘It is the Passover slaughtering of Yahuah, who passed over the houses of the children of Yisra’el in Mitsrayim when He smote the Mitsrites and delivered our households.’ ” And the people bowed their heads and did obeisance.

Again, same comment. I haven't heard of anyone in recent years dying on their way home after the Passover service.

Consider that the COMMEMORATION of an event is not the EVENT itself.

Note: Our forefathers knew ahead of time what was going to happen, so maybe when we "see Jerusalem surrounded by armies" 45 days before Passover, THEN maybe we should apply some of those specific instructions.


I haven't heard of anyone dying on the way home from Passover service either. Yes, the forefathers knew ahead of time what was going to occur and maybe we are to keep this service without fail because it might occur again. Another exodus...

Hoshea 9:1-7:
O Yisra’el, do not rejoice with exultation like the peoples, for you have whored from your Elohim. You have loved a love-fee at all threshing-floors. 2 Threshing floor and winepress shall not feed them, and new wine shall fail in her. 3 They shall not dwell in the land of Yahuah, but Ephrayim shall return to Mitsrayim, and eat unclean food in Ashshur. 4 They do not pour wine offerings to Yahuah, nor are their offerings pleasing to Him – it being like bread of mourners to them, all who eat it are defiled. For their bread is for their life, it does not come into the House of Yahuah. 5 What do you do for the appointed meeting, and in the day of the festival of Yahuah? 6 For look, they shall go because of destruction – Mitsrayim gathers them up, Moph buries them, nettles possess their valuables of silver, thorns are in their tents. 7 The days of punishment have come, the days of retribution have come. Yisra’el knows! The prophet is a fool, the ‘man of the Spirit’ is mad, because of the greatness of your crookedness, and great is the enmity.

YeshaYahu 26:20-21:
20 Go, my people, enter your rooms, and shut your doors behind you; hide yourself, as it were, for a little while, until the displeasure is past. 21 For look, Yahuah is coming out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their crookedness. And the earth shall disclose her blood, and no longer cover her slain.


This is an interesting verse when we consider the fact that Passover is the only set-apart time that we are commanded to be inside until morning. Interesting also, at the first Passover this verse would have directly applied to them, they stayed inside all night while the death messenger passed over.

Maybe we should be applying these specific instructions now, because if you truly look at Yisra'el, is it not surrounded by armies? Don't all the countries around them hate them and even have nukes pointed at them? Maybe it's right there before our eyes and we're just not seeing it. As for me and my household, we have chosen to observe and implement these instructions to the best of our ability.


Prov. 27:12:
12 A clever man foresees calamity, hides himself; The simple shall go on, they are punished.

~Greg

Posted: 13 May 2008, 07:45
by BrotherArnold
chuckbaldwin wrote:
BrotherArnold wrote:please be more specific.
Specifically, the false assertion that the 7th day of the Feast mentioned in Ex.13:6-7 is actually the 1st day of the Feast.




RESPONSE; That's not being specific.

I gave you several conclusive Scripture that calls the 15th a feast/chag and challenged you to give one scripture that calls the 21st day of the feast a feast/chag.

I showed you how that Exodus 13:6 says the feast/Chag is in the SEVENTH day.

I explained how that this verse is speaking of one specific day that the feast/chag is in and it is not referring to all of the seven days of unleavened bread.

With lunar Sabbatarians the 15th is always the seventh day in the first month and if the ancient Israelites were lunar Sabbath keepers, they would have had no problem understanding that the seventh day that the feast is in his referring to the 15th.

Here are a few of the Scriptures that I gave to prove the 15th is the feast/chag.

Leviticus 23:5-6 "In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the YHWH’S Passover. 6And on the "FIFTEENTH" day of the same month is the "FEAST/chag" of unleavened bread unto the YHWH: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.

Numbers 28:17 says, And "in" the "fifteenth/chag" day of this month is the "feast": (Chag) seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten".

Notice is says, "in" the "fifteenth" day of this month is the "feast/Chag": Exodus 13:6 says the feast/Chag is in the SEVENTH day.

Once again the Chag is not in the 21st day, but is in the seventh day/15th and here are a few of many verses which conclusively prove that the 15th is the Chag/15th/seventh day, and NOT the 21st.

Psm-81:3-6, "3 Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn "feast" day. (15th/Chag)
4 For this was a statute for Israel, and a law of the YHWH of Jacob.
5 This he ordained in Joseph for a testimony, when he went out through the land of Egypt: where I heard a language that I understood not.
6 I removed his shoulder from the burden: his hands were delivered from the pots.
This is being specific and there is much more conclusive proof at http://lunarsabbath.info/_wsn/page8.html . I only wish all of my doctrines were this simple.

Brother Arnold

Posted: 13 May 2008, 08:57
by Watchman555
Shalom Brother Arnold,

Once again the Chag is not in the 21st day, but is in the seventh day/15th and here are a few of many verses which conclusively prove that the 15th is the Chag/15th/seventh day, and NOT the 21st.


Apparently, I have a different view on what the 'chag' is. It seems you are saying that the 'chag' is on the 15th only, my understanding is that the 'chag' or "Feast of Unleavened Bread" is 7 days long. Each one of those days being 1 of the 7 'chag' or feast days. Although, for the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the 15th is the only commanded set-apart gathering (qodesh miqra), the 21st day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread is a solemn assembly (atsarah), bringing the Feast to a close. I see the 'chags' as being anywhere from one day to seven weeks. Scripture confirms the Feast of First-fruits to be a one day feast, Unleavened Bread is a 7-day feast, Feast of Tabernacles is a 7-day feast, the Feast of Weeks is a seven week feast. Also, the 8th day after the Feast of Tabernacles is also referred to as an atsarah (Strong's #6116), yet it is not considered one of the 7 days of the feast.

Also, I was wondering if you could provide a Scripture that would indicate that the weekly 7th day Sabbath is considered a chag? I have not seen this; I know that the weekly 7th day Sabbath is an appointed time for a qodesh miqra (set-apart gathering).

~Greg

Posted: 14 May 2008, 21:35
by BrotherArnold
Revisiting Leviticus 23 in a new light shows the 15th being called the seventh day and a Chag.

All of the following in Leviticus 23 are Moeds 4150’s, for the whole year, beginning with the weekly Moed/appointed time even up to and past the day of Atonement/moed/appointed time, through Tabernacles and they are all worship moeds of YHWH and are by the MOON. The Day of Atonement moed is called by the very same Hebrew word “SABBATH”, and they are all “Holy Convocations”.

It would not make sense to assume that the 15th was not one of the Appointed times/Moeds that YHWH was referring to when He said these are “MY” Feast/Moeds, even Holy Convocations. And except for tradition, it would make even less sense to assume the Moeds that comes after 6 ordinary work days, New Moon day/days not included, was not one of them also, especially when the same Hebrew word for the weekly Sabbath is used for the Day of Atonement etc. They were all determined by the Moon, from the first mentioned weekly Moed until the last Moed of Tabernacles and it would repeat next year after year.

In Leviticus 23 we are instructed as to which days are holy convocations. We will soon see that the truth is sometimes hidden in simplicity.

I will ask the reader to simply follow instructions as they were given, not adding to or diminishing from the Word of YHWH.

Leviticus 23:2 says, Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the “appointments” of YHWH, which ye shall proclaim to be holy “assemblies”, even these are My “appointments”. 3”Six days” shall “work” be done: but the “seventh day” is the sabbath/intermission of rest, a holy “assembly”; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath/intermission of YHWH in all your dwellings.

Notice that the subject is the weekly Sabbath day which is A HOLY CONVOCATION that comes after six workdays. It is important not to add to this subject or take away from it until the subject changes. Can you do this?

The above clearly tells us that the appointments of YHWH is the “SEVENTH DAY” which comes after “six workdays” throughout the whole year, no more and no less, and so far, this is all we know because hopefully we have dismissed everything else from our minds so that we can follow the pure Instructions of YHWH.

Continuing on,
4These are the “appointments” of YHWH, even holy “assemblies”, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. 5In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is YHWH’S passover. 6And on the “FIFTEENTH” day of the same month is the “appointment” of unleavened bread unto YHWH: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.

The subject has not changed here as some people think. He is just explaining how that in the first month each year you will still the passover on the 14th day and the 15th/Sabbath appointment/feast of unleavened bread.

So far there's nothing to cause us to believe that this 15th is not a appointment/feast/weekly Sabbath/holy convocation, same as the one spoken of in verse three and that it is any different from the one that comes after six workdays except that it is the beginning of a seven-day feast which makes it special but to my knowledge it is never called a “Sabbaton” which means a “special Sabbath” i.e. different than the one that comes after six workdays, and until I find where the Scripture calls it a Sabbaton, I will not call it a Sabbaton even though it will not affect what I am saying.

We will see in a little while that the 15th in the seventh month is called a Sabbaton/special Sabbath or intermission because it does not come after six workdays and the Scripture indicates that it is an intermission/Sabbath BESIDES or in addition to the weekly Sabbath that comes after six workdays, as we will see shortly.
The new moon day of that seventh month is also called a “Sabbaton” because it to is a special new moon day and doubled sacrifices are offered on it, it is also called a Sabbath of rest. Continuing on in verse 7,

7In the first day ye shall have a holy assembly: ye shall do no servile work therein. 8But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto YHWH seven days:

Why do we have a Holy assembly on the first day?
Because it is a “Seventh day” intermission/weekly Sabbath that comes after six workdays, at least that is what we have been talking about so far, the seventh day which comes after six workdays, the subject is the weekly Sabbath day/feast/intermission throughout the whole year and the subject has not changed yet. “Remember” we are simply following instructions and so far there's been nothing mentioned to insinuate that there is another feast/appointment/Holy assembly other than the one that comes after six workdays that is mentioned above in verse three which are His weekly feast throughout the year.
Continuing on,

in the “SEVENTH” day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.

It is not conclusive that this seventh day is referring to the seventh day of the feast or the 15th, it could be a repeat same as other repeats throughout the Scriptures such as Exodus 13:6-7 which says,

“6Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, and in the seventh day shall be a feast to YHWH. 7Unleavened bread shall be eaten seven days;”

I might mentioned if there were two Sabbaths/intermission, one on the 15th at the beginning of the feast and one on the 21st or seventh day of the feast, we would not know from the Scripture, which sabbath/intermission to count to Pentecost from when you come into the land and you are to wave the sheaf on the morrow after the Sabbath, (so far the only Sabbath is the weekly Sabbath day Sabbath/intermission) we would not know which Sabbath if there were two of them. This is just a thought I might be wrong in this, I have not examined it yet.
Continuing on,

9And YHWH spake unto Moses, saying, 10Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest: 11And he shall wave the sheaf before YHWH, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it.

This Sabbath is still speaking of the weekly Sabbath that comes after six workdays because nothing has changed since “verse three”, the weekly Sabbath/feast is still the subject.

Continuing on,

12And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto YHWH. 13And the meat offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto YHWH for a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin. 14And ye shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, “until” the selfsame day that ye have brought an offering unto your God: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.

The wave sheaf seems to be so important that you don't eat any thing until the day that it is waved. I believe it is connected with the resurrection of our Savior who is the firstfruits of them that sleep.

Continuing on,
15And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath/intermission, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths/intermissions shall be complete: 16Even unto the morrow “after” the seventh sabbath/intermission shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto YHWH.

Notice we are still talking about the seventh day and that is the subject up until now and the above Sabbaths/intermissions are the same as the one in verse three that comes after six workdays and so far nothing has changed to lead us to believe that any of the appointments/Sabbath thus far, does not come after six workdays, including the 15th. I am trying to follow the simple and pure instructions without adding what I've been taught.
Continuing on,

17Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto YHWH. 18And ye shall offer with the bread seven lambs without blemish of the first year, and one young bullock, and two rams: they shall be for a burnt offering unto YHWH, with their meat offering, and their drink offerings, even an offering made by fire, of sweet savour unto YHWH. 19Then ye shall sacrifice one kid of the goats for a sin offering, and two lambs of the first year for a sacrifice of peace offerings. 20And the priest shall wave them with the bread of the firstfruits for a wave offering before YHWH, with the two lambs: they shall be holy to YHWH for the priest. 21And ye shall proclaim on the selfsame day, that it may be an holy convocation unto you: ye shall do no servile work therein: it shall be a statute for ever in all your dwellings throughout your generations.


Notice it teaches that Pentecost is an Holy convocation but does not call it a “Sabbath” possibly because it is not always a seventh day Sabbath that comes after six workdays which is the subject thus far, more on this later.

So far the weekly Sabbath/intermission that comes after six workdays is the “PRIMARY” Sabbath/intermission of Leviticus 23 and the Scriptures itself will tell you when the subject changes and another Sabbath/intermission besides the one that comes after six workdays, is introduced, and does not follow the six workdays and one rest pattern.
Continuing on,

22And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field when thou reapest, neither shalt thou gather any gleaning of thy harvest: thou shalt leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I am YHWH your God.

More instructions are given but the following shows the change from the primary appointments/feast days throughout the year which come after six workdays, to appointments/feasts that do not come after six workdays.
Continuing on,

23And YHWH spake unto Moses, saying, 24Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the “seventh month”, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a Sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. 25Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto YHWH. 26And YHWH spake unto Moses, saying, 27Also on the “tenth day” of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto YHWH. 28And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before YHWH your God. 29For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people. 30And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people. 31Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. 32It shall be unto you a Sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your Sabbath.”

We see that the 10th day of the seventh month is called a Sabbath/intermission of rest which cannot be a rest after six workdays even though the same word for intermission is used, the following verses will prove that the Day of Atonement and the 15th are sabbaths/intermissions that do not come after six workdays. (They are still Moon related)

Continuing on it says,
33And YHWH spake unto Moses, saying, 34Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, The “FIFTEENTH” day of this seventh month shall be the feast of tabernacles for seven days unto YHWH. 35On the first day shall be an holy assembly: ye shall do no servile work therein. 36Seven days ye shall offer an “offering made by fire unto YHWH”: on the “eighth day” shall be an holy assembly unto you; and ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto YHWH: it is a “solemn” assembly; and ye shall do no servile work therein.
”37These” are the feasts of YHWH, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an “offering made by fire” unto YHWH, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day: ”38BESIDE the Sabbaths” of YHWH, “and” beside your gifts, “and beside” all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto YHWH.

Why do the above instructions say that "these" are appointments/feast “to offer” offerings made by fire, burnt offerings etc. “besides” the Sabbaths?

The word Sabbath here is not the word for sabbaton and neither is it the Septuagint. It is the word for the weekly seventh day Sabbath that comes after six workdays in both the Hebrew and the Greek texts such as the 15th i.e. up until this point the only Sabbath spoken of was the one that comes after six ordinary work days and now we have some “besides” those Sabbaths, like the New moon of the 7th month and the 10th and also the 8th which did not come 7 days after an ordinary Sabbath because the 15th in the 7th month is not a seventh day rest, but a 4th day rest.

The above shows some assemblies/appointments “BESIDES” or in addition to the weekly Seventh day Sabbath/intermission that comes after six workdays. The day of atonement which comes after one work day and is on the 10th day of the seventh month and there's only four work days between the rest day on the 10th and the rest day on the 15th of the seventh month and "unlike" the 15th in the first month, this 15th is called a “Sabbaton” because it is a special Sabbath/intermission that not only begins the seven-day feast of tabernacles but does not come after six workdays.
Continuing on,

“39Also” in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto YHWH seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.

The 15th and the eight day from it are called Sabbaton’s. We can explain why the 15th is called a Sabbaton or special appointment because it does not fit the mold of an intermission after six workdays as in Genesis one and it is the beginning of the Feast of Tabernacles, but what about the eighth day from it, it comes after six workdays?

The only thing I can figure on such short notice is, possibly different offerings are offered on this day, or it is the only weekly seventh day Sabbath that is not counted from another seventh day Sabbath or new moon day, which would make it different from all the other seventh day Sabbath that comes after six workdays throughout the year, and that is why is called a special Sabbath or Sabbaton.
Continuing on,

40And ye shall take you on the first day the boughs of goodly trees, branches of palm trees, and the boughs of thick trees, and willows of the brook; and ye shall rejoice before YHWH your God seven days. 41And ye shall keep it a feast unto YHWH seven days in the year. It shall be a statute for ever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month. 42Ye shall dwell in booths seven days; all that are Israelites born shall dwell in booths: 43That your generations may know that I made the children of Israel to dwell in booths, when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am YHWH your God. 44And Moses declared unto the children of Israel the “feasts” of YHWH.

Notice verse 44 where Moses declared unto them the feast/appointments/Moeds/4150’s of YHWH for the whole year, i.e. the ones that comes after six workdays, which are the PRIMARY feasts, and the ones that do not come after six workdays and they “ALL” are Moon related. This is why it is imposable to find a conclusive weekly Sabbath on any other day other than the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th in scripture.

Brother Arnold