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Lunar Sabbath

For the open discussion of all calendar related issues.

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eriqbenel
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Postby eriqbenel » 14 Nov 2007, 12:40

chuckbaldwin wrote:
eriqbenel wrote:Hi Greg, my guess is that he could buy it on the 9th, and officially "appoint" it on the 10th.
:roll:
I know, Eric, you're just mad because i came up with an answer. :P :mrgreen:



I'm glad you said AN answer and not THE answer. Fortunately, we were able to give THE answer. :)
Shalom in the name of YHWH,

Eriq

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Postby chuckbaldwin » 15 Nov 2007, 05:34

eriqbenel wrote:[/b]:roll:

I'm glad you said AN answer and not THE answer. Fortunately, we were able to give THE answer. :)

Yeah, THE WRONG answer. And i notice from your "smiley face" that you're still trying to find your cranial organ. :wink: :mrgreen:
Chuck Baldwin
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eriqbenel
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Postby eriqbenel » 15 Nov 2007, 14:14

chuckbaldwin wrote:
eriqbenel wrote:[/b]:roll:

I'm glad you said AN answer and not THE answer. Fortunately, we were able to give THE answer. :)

Yeah, THE WRONG answer. And i notice from your "smiley face" that you're still trying to find your cranial organ. :wink: :mrgreen:



I hope one day you will bless us with the correct answer.

Also, Lunar Sabbaths are 1000x more provable than a Saturday Sabbath. I know a lot of people believe in a Saturday Sabbath, but none of them can PROVE it in Scriptuire. So far, you have just tried to dismantle the evidence for Lunar Sabbaths and have offered ZERO proof for a Saturday Sabbath.

Finally, lets try to refrain from juvenile exchanges. That didn't happen (even among disagreements) until you showed up.
Shalom in the name of YHWH,



Eriq

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Postby chuckbaldwin » 16 Nov 2007, 05:52

eriqbenel wrote:So far, you have just tried to dismantle the evidence for Lunar Sabbaths and have offered ZERO proof for a Saturday Sabbath.
I'm not going to go round & round again with this. Suffice it to say i HAVE offered proof that proves it to me. You guys just don't accept it. That's fine if you don't accept it, but it's a LIE to say i haven't offered any.
Finally, lets try to refrain from juvenile exchanges. That didn't happen (even among disagreements) until you showed up.
I'm sorry that my showing up caused you to start a "juvenile exchange" with the arrogant statement:
I'm glad you said AN answer and not THE answer. Fortunately, we were able to give THE answer.
I'll try not to be juvenile if you'll afford me the same consideration. :mrgreen:
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

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Postby orenjoshandjessica » 21 Dec 2007, 20:19

I have a question. How do we know what PHASE OF THE MOON to start counting 7 days? Full, new, 1/2 way through the phases. Also...just a thought. If you keep the LUNAR SABBATH don't you miss keeping the Shabbath at least every 7th day? Because doesn't the moon have 29-30 days in its cycle...(btw not divisible by 7). Then when the "new moon" or "full moon" or whatever comes along you start from square one (it becomes the 1st day of the week again). Wouldn't that go AGAINST Scripture. Also, isn't there a way to tell when it's the Sabbath and still use the Lunar cycles, yet it still be kept on the wordly "Satur-ay"??? I am not trying to be argumentative. Just some thoughts as I am just recently studying this. Scriptural answers anyone?
May Yahuah show favor upon your house and your studies.

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Postby Chayil_Ishshah » 22 Dec 2007, 15:44

by orenjoshandjessica
still use the Lunar cycles, yet it still be kept on the wordly "Satur-ay"???


Shalom and welcome,

We are pleased that you have joined the forum and this discussion. Praise Yahuah. We are currently studying the lunar reckoning and would like to share some points with you and any that would care to read.

The TaNaK was written to Yisra'el, not the gentiles. Now, if a gentile loved Yahuah they could be part of Yisra'el,


Ruth 1:16b
Your people is my people, and your Elohim is my Elohim.

Ruth 4:11
"Witnesses! Yahuah make the woman who is coming to your house as Rachel and as Le'ah, the two who built the house of Yisra'el. And prove your worth in Ephrathah and proclaim the Name in Beyth Lehem.

Yahuah does not change:

Mal'aki 3:6
6"For I am YAHUAH, I shall not change

The Yisra'elites were told:

YirmeYahu 10:2
2 Thus said YAHUAH, "Do not learn the way of the gentiles, and do not be awed by the signs of the heavens, for the gentiles are awed by them.

Debarim 18:9
9 "When you come into the land which YAHUAH your Elohim is giving you, do not learn to do according to the abominations of those gentiles.

Therefore, we don't believe it was the gentiles Yahuah was speaking to when He said:

Amos 5:21-22
21 "I have hated, I have despised your festivals, and I am not pleased with your assemblies. 22 "Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings, I do not accept them, nor do I look on your fattened peace offerings.

YeshaYahu 1:13-14:
13"Stop bringing futile offerings, incense, it is an abomination to Me. New Moons, Sabbaths, the calling of meetings “I am unable to bear unrighteousness and assembly. 14 "My being hates your New Moons and your appointed times, they are a trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them.

Now concerning your question, the Roman Catholic Church said,

"The real key to the movement for (calendar) reform was the desire to celebrate EASTER at the correct time."
The Western Calendar, J.D. North

"In order to keep the calendar year roughly aligned with the solar year, a leap month of 27 days, the Mensis Intercalaris, sometimes also known as Mercedonius or Mercedinus, was added from time to time at the end of February, which was shortened to 23 or 24 days. The resulting year was either 377 or 378 days long. The decision to insert the intercalary month, and its placement, was the responsibility of the pontifex maximus. On average, this happened roughly in alternate years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_calendar


So we see by these two quotes that the gentile church was in charge of the calendar.

Also, if you've had an opportunity to learn about the Roman calendar, you will see that it previously had 8 days, called a "Market week" or nundianal cycle.


"The nundinal cycle formed a basic rhythm of day-to-day Roman life; the market day was the day that country people would come to the city, and the day that city people would buy their groceries for the next 8 days. For this reason, a law was passed in 287 BC (the Lex Hortensia) that forbade the holding of meetings of the comitia (for example to hold elections) on market days, but permitted the holding of legal actions. In the late republic, a superstition arose that it was unlucky to start the year with a market day (i.e. for the market day to fall on 1 January, with a letter A), and the pontiffs, who regulated the calendar , took steps to avoid it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_calendar


The Roman calendar originally was a lunar one where the new moons were declared publically (sound familiar), then after the ruler Numa Pompilius made reforms, they were on fixed days.

Our question is this, If Yahuah said:


Lam. 2:6
6 He has demolished His booth like a garden, He has destroyed His place of meeting. YAHUAH has made the appointed times and Sabbaths To be forgotten in Tsiyon, And despises sovereign and priest In His raging displeasure.

Then how can we be sure beyond any reasonable doubt that a calendar made by gentiles that went from a lunar to a fixed lunar, to an 8-day week, to a 7-day week is the same "7th-day" from creation?

Another question, if the calendar hanging on most walls today lies about when the year starts (winter vs. spring), lies about when the month starts (when they say vs. new moon), and when the day starts (midnight vs. evening or morning), then how can we "take their word" that the 7th-day is the correct one?

Even if the Jews themselves claim that we are on the correct 7-day cycle, (according to the RCC calendar) how can we believe them when they said in their own Talmud -


"The ancient Talmudic ruling that travelers who lose count of the days of the week should nevertheless keep observing the Sabbath every seventh day despite the likelihood of its being the "Wrong" day makes it quite clear that at the very heart of the institution of the Sabbath lies the periodic alternation between the sacred and the profane along a 6-1 pattern. This structural feature is far more central to Judaism than the actual temporal location of the sacred within historical time.

"The Seven-Day Circle", page 116.

See Talmud source. http://www.come-and-hear.com/shabbath/shabbath_69.html


Have you ever found yourself saying, "what day of the week is it?" I guess that leaves two choices. Ask somebody or look at the moon. Or maybe three - - look at the RCC calendar on the wall; but even then, if you don't know where you are in time then that won't help. In other words, if you don't know where you are in the month, week, or year, the calendar won't help at all. Pick up a newspaper, they usually have the date at the top. But lets say you were ship-wrecked and you found yourself on a deserted island and when you woke up you had no idea what day it was, how do you find out when Sabbath is?

Gen. 1:14:
And Elohim said, "Let lights come to be in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and appointed times, and for days and years.


One of the most striking Scriptural evidences for us was found in Ezeki\'el.

46:1
"thus said the Master Yahuah, "The gate of the inner courtyard facing east is shut the six days of work, but on the
Sabbath it is opened, and on the day of the New Moon it is opened.

This verse clearly speaks of three different types of days - New Moons, work days, and Sabbaths. Now according to the 7-day continual cycle (RCC calendar) the New Moon will land on a work day and occasionally on Sabbaths. In other words, Scripture says it will be open on New Moon and Sabbaths, and if the New Moon lands on a work day (RCC calendar) are the gates opened or closed? Now concerning when a New Moon falls on the 7th-day of the RCC calendar, if you study the slaughter offerings that are required New Moon, Sabbaths, and daily continual offerings (Num. 28 & 29) you will find that there is no provision for a New Moon to be on a Sabbath or vice versa. In other words, Scriptures are very clear that when the New Moon comes that the daily offerings must be offered also with the New Moon offerings, same with the Sabbath day offerings - the daily offerings must be included also. But there is no provision for when a New Moon falls on a Sabbath. As if there was no need to, because according to the lunar reckoning, it is impossible for a New Moon to be on a Sabbath or on a work day.

Also, if we study the Jubilees we find that it speaks of land Sabbaths which occur every 7th year. 7 x 7 = 49. Now, the 50th year is the Jubilee, in which there is no sowing or reaping. Just like each 7th year, no sowing or reaping. The 50th year is not in the count of the 7s. It is a year all to itself, which breaks up the cycle of 7s. Much like the lunar reckoning when you get to the New Moon it is not counted in the 7s. New Moons are a day to themselves. Some say that the 50th year is in the count of 7s, but this is not Scriptural because it clearly says in the first year you are to sow and reap and the 50th year in that mindset would be counted as the first year in the count of the cycle of 7s.

For us, this is just one more proof concerning the Sabbaths or cycle of 7s, that they can be interrupted.

Just some thoughts,

~Greg and dawn


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Watchman555
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Another case in point...

Postby Watchman555 » 29 Dec 2007, 22:21



Another case in point is the Day of Atonement. Yahuah Himself has decreed a Sabbath day that does in fact fall in the weekly cycle, whether it is 7-day continual or lunar reckoning; therefore the week that Atonement falls in is broken up by this day.

Not only the Day of Atonement, but would not all the festivals of Yahuah break up the 7-day count from creation? In other words if the 15th of Abib fell on a "Fourth Day" (weds) does that not break up the cycle of 7s by putting a day of rest in the midst of a week?

In all actuality people that are against the lunar reckoning ought to realize that all the appointed times of Yahuah (the Feasts) are according to the lunar reckoning. So in all actuality when it comes to ULB and Tabs the 15th of these months, which are Sabbaths, are according to a lunar reckoning.

~Greg and dawn

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Re: Another case in point...

Postby chuckbaldwin » 30 Dec 2007, 05:55

Watchman555 wrote:Another case in point is the Day of Atonement. Yahuah Himself has decreed a Sabbath day that does in fact fall in the weekly cycle, whether it is 7-day continual or lunar reckoning; therefore the week that Atonement falls in is broken up by this day.
I use this fact to "allow" (not "prove") that it's no problem for the New Moon Days to fall anywhere within the weekly cycle.

Also, the Jubilee year was mentioned in the previous post. I lean toward the Jubilee cycle being 49 years, NOT 50 years, with each Jubilee year being the 1st year of the following cycle. The reason being that Abraham lived "3 jubilees & 4 weeks of years, 175 years" (Jub. 23:7). (3x49)+(4x7)=147+28=175, whereas (3x50)+(4x7)=150+28=178, and we know that the 175 agrees with Scripture. All the time-periods in the Book of Jubilees are based on the 49-year cycle.
Chuck Baldwin

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Re: Another case in point...

Postby Watchman555 » 30 Dec 2007, 14:36

Greetings Chuck Baldwin,

I know you've probably been through all this stuff before, Chuck. I don't want to bog you down, we're still in the process of getting a total grip on this understanding of the lunar cycle and around here there's not too many people that will refute with their understanding of the 7-day continual cycle and I surely can't make posts like this on Tom's board. I would surely get the axe. So please bear with me on this Chuck.



chuckbaldwin wrote:I use this fact to "allow" (not "prove") that it's no problem for the New Moon Days to fall anywhere within the weekly cycle.


Then how do you explain:

Numbers 28:9-10:
9 And on the Sabbath day two lambs a year old, perfect ones, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour as a grain offering, mixed with oil, with its drink offering, 10 the burnt offering for every Sabbath, besides the continual burnt offering with its drink offering.

There is no provision for New Moon falling on Sabbath, which surely it would in a 7-day continual. Same with New Moon Day offerings.

Numbers 28:11-15:
11 And on the beginnings of your months you bring near a burnt offering to Yahuah: two young bulls and one ram, and seven lambs a year old, perfect ones; 12 three-tenths of an ephah of fine flour as a grain offering, mixed with oil, for each bull; two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour as a grain offering, mixed with oil, for the one ram; 13 and one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour, mixed with oil, as a grain offering for each lamb, as a burnt offering of sweet fragrance, an offering made by fire to Yahuah. 14 And their drink offering is half a hin of wine for a bull, and one-third of a hin for a ram, and one-fourth of a hin for a lamb. This is the burnt offering for each month throughout the months of the year, 15 and one male goat as a sin offering to Yahuah is prepared, besides the continual burnt offering and its drink offering.

Notice here that for the New Moon Offerings there is no provision for it to fall on a Sabbath, and the reason I say this is, Yahuah made it perfectly clear in both instances of the Sabbath Offerings and the New Moon Offerings "besides the continual burnt offering and its drink offering". Now these are daily offerings that are continual and not to be forgotten on these days; which should be obvious, yet He specified as if "don't forget to do these also". There is no explanation in Scripture of what to do if the New Moon falls on a Sabbath. I mean what offering takes precedence? Shouldn't it be done in a specific order? Or would you leave one of the sets of offerings out? Because the New Moon falls on a Sabbath, the Sabbath day offerings take precedence, which offerings do you do first, the New Moon Offerings or the Sabbath Offerings? Why did He not say "and when your beginning of months falls on a Sabbath you will have your New Moon offerings, besides the Sabbath offerings, besides the continual burnt offering and its drink offering"?

chuckbaldwin wrote:Also, the Jubilee year was mentioned in the previous post. I lean toward the Jubilee cycle being 49 years, NOT 50 years, with each Jubilee year being the 1st year of the following cycle. The reason being that Abraham lived "3 jubilees & 4 weeks of years, 175 years" (Jub. 23:7). (3x49)+(4x7)=147+28=175, whereas (3x50)+(4x7)=150+28=178, and we know that the 175 agrees with Scripture.


Lev. 25:11:
11 The fiftieth(2572) year (8141)is a Jubilee (3104)to you. Do not sow, nor reap what grows of its own, nor gather from its unpruned vine.

#2572 - chamishshiym
1) fifty
a) fifty (cardinal number)
b) a multiple of fifty (with other numbers)
c) fiftieth (ordinal number)

A millennium is 1,000 years, Messiah is coming back to rule 1,000 years, 50 x 20 = 1,000. Or 20 jubilees of 50 years each.

#8141 - shaneh
1) year
a) as division of time
b) as measure of time
c) as indication of age
d) a lifetime (of years of life)

#3104 - yowbel
1) ram, ram's horn, trumpet, cornet
a) ram (only in combination)
1) ram's horn, trumpet
b) jubilee year (marked by the blowing of cornets) (meton)


chuckbaldwin wrote:All the time-periods in the Book of Jubilees are based on the 49-year cycle.


Now your quote from up above states that in the "Book of Jubilees" says the jubilee are based on a 49-year cycle. See, this is a major discrepancy on what I read in my Scriptures, which we have quoted above that says the jubilee is the 50th year.

To tell you the truth Chuck, concerning the "Book of Jubilees" that was found at Qumran, from our studies we have found this book to be somewhat less than accurate, when compared to what we find in our Scriptures. Personally, I would have to put this "Book of Jubilees" on par with the Talmud. Not to say that there was not an inspired Book of Jubilees. Another case in point:



Jubilees 2:9
The Lord appointed the sun as a great sign above the earth for days, sabbaths, months, festivals, years, sabbaths of years, jubilees, and all times of the years.
The Book of Jubilees, James C. Vanderkam


Compared to Genesis 1:14 -

Genesis 1:14:
And Elohim said, "Let lights come to be in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and appointed times, and for days and years.

"1 Enoch simply presents the two calendars and juxtaposes them; Jubilees advocates the solar and condemns the lunar system. "
Calendars in the Dead Sea Scrolls: Measuring Time, James C. Vanderkam, page 32


Well Chuck, maybe you could help me out on this, how do you explain these major differences? Such as the Book of Jubilees seeming to be based on a solar calendar rather than solar-lunar and also how can it be possible that they say a jubilee cycle is 49 years when my Scriptures say the jubilee is the 50th year?

Shalom,

~Greg

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Re: Another case in point...

Postby chuckbaldwin » 31 Dec 2007, 01:10

Hi Greg, I just spent an hour working on my response, then hit the Backspace key, and it wiped everything out, so i'm having to start over. That's computers for ya.
Watchman555 wrote:
chuckbaldwin wrote:I use this fact to "allow" (not "prove") that it's no problem for the New Moon Days to fall anywhere within the weekly cycle.
Then how do you explain:
For the New Moon Offerings there is no provision for it to fall on a Sabbath,
Boy, Greg, i really had to think on this one, and i really hate to think.:D I had to read through the requirements for the Sabbath & New Moons, and here's what i found, put in list form for easy comparison:

Numbers 28:9-10: And on the Sabbath day
1. two lambs a year old, perfect ones,
2. two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour as a grain offering,
[Note that this is 1/10 ephah for each lamb - see below.]
3. mixed with oil,
4. with its drink offering,
5. the burnt offering for every Sabbath,
6. besides the continual burnt offering with its drink offering.

For my purpose here, i'm only listing the New Moon offerings that correspond to the Sabbath offerings.
Numbers 28:11-15: And on the beginnings of your months
1. seven lambs a year old, perfect ones;
2. one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour,
3. mixed with oil, as a grain offering for each lamb
4. And their drink offering ... one-fourth of a hin for a lamb.
5. This is the burnt offering for each month throughout the months of the year
6. besides the continual burnt offering and its drink offering.

If you'll compare the 2 lists, you'll find that the offerings for the Sabbath are completely contained/included in the offerings for the New Moon. So whey they made the New Moon sacrifices, they automatically included all the Sabbath requirements.
I don't know if my answer is correct, but it makes sense to me, and that's what u get for making me think.:D
chuckbaldwin wrote:Also, the Jubilee year was mentioned in the previous post. I lean toward the Jubilee cycle being 49 years, NOT 50 years, with each Jubilee year being the 1st year of the following cycle. The reason being that Abraham lived "3 jubilees & 4 weeks of years, 175 years" (Jub. 23:7). (3x49)+(4x7)=147+28=175, whereas (3x50)+(4x7)=150+28=178, and we know that the 175 agrees with Scripture.
A millennium is 1,000 years, Messiah is coming back to rule 1,000 years, 50 x 20 = 1,000. Or 20 jubilees of 50 years each.
The math is OK, but there's no Scripture that explicitly says that 20 jubilees is 1000 years.
chuckbaldwin wrote:All the time-periods in the Book of Jubilees are based on the 49-year cycle.
Now your quote from up above states that in the "Book of Jubilees" the jubilee are based on a 49-year cycle. See, this is a major discrepancy on what I read in my Scriptures, which we have quoted above that says the jubilee is the 50th year.
That's true, but no discrepancy. For comparison, Pentecost is the "50th day", but is also the 1st day of a new week.
To tell you the truth Chuck, concerning the "Book of Jubilees" that was found at Qumran, from our studies we have found this book to be somewhat less than accurate, when compared to what we find in our Scriptures. Personally, I would have to put this "Book of Jubilees" on par with the Talmud. Not to say that there was not an inspired Book of Jubilees. Another case in point:

Jubilees 2:9
The Lord appointed the sun as a great sign above the earth for days, sabbaths, months, festivals, years, sabbaths of years, jubilees, and all times of the years.
The Book of Jubilees, James C. Vanderkam


Compared to Genesis 1:14 -

Genesis 1:14:
And Elohim said, "Let lights come to be in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and appointed times, and for days and years.

"1 Enoch simply presents the two calendars and juxtaposes them; Jubilees advocates the solar and condemns the lunar system. "
Calendars in the Dead Sea Scrolls: Measuring Time, James C. Vanderkam, page 32
I think that Jubilees is referring to the "creation calendar", when the moon was in sync with the sun, and the day started at dawn, and the year (by tradition) started in the fall. This was all changed by the "exodus calendar", in my understanding. However, by the time of Noah (Ch.6), the moon already seems to have gotten off track (due to the flood & related events?). I haven't yet figured out the information in Enoch.[quote][color=darkblue]Well Chuck, maybe you could help me out on this, how do you explain these major differences? Such as the Book of Jubilees
Chuck Baldwin

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Postby Watchman555 » 31 Dec 2007, 22:24

Shalom Chuck,

Had me going there for a second, trying to pull the ol' run it concurrent... :)

But, I would like to point out that this can't be done either way, because if you present only the New Moon offerings you will be short one ephah of fine flour and of course, if you present only the Sabbath offerings, you would be short 5 lambs. So I don't think the concurrent deal will work on that. By the way, you missed the first part of verse 11, two young bulls and one ram.

I'm gonna go ahead and unload another round on ya, notice the day of Shouting (Trumpets); which is New Moon day of the 7th month:


Numbers 29:1-6:
And in the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you have a set-apart gathering, you do no servile work, it is a day of blowing the trumpets for you. 2 ‘And you shall prepare a burnt offering as a sweet fragrance to Yahuah: one young bull, one ram, seven lambs a year old,
perfect ones, 3 and their grain offering: fine flour mixed with oil, three-tenths of an Ephah for the bull, two-tenths for the ram, 4 and one-tenth for each of the seven lambs, 5 and one male goat as a sin offering, to make atonement for you, 6 besides the burnt offering with its grain offering for the New Moon, the continual burnt offering with its grain offering, and their drink offerings, according to their right-ruling, as a sweet fragrance, an offering made by fire to Yahuah.


Again, there is absolutely no provision for when this New Moon would fall on a Sabbath according to the 7-day continual cycle. Yet notice the bold - the continual burnt offering AND the New Moon offering are both mentioned here to be done.

Concerning the Jubilees, according to your understanding how the first year is also the 50th year (?-if I understand you right) I guess that would be kind of like the lunar reckoning understanding; because the first day of the work week would fall on the second day of the month. :idea:

~Greg

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Postby chuckbaldwin » 02 Jan 2008, 05:03

Watchman555 wrote:I would like to point out that this can't be done either way, because if you present only the New Moon offerings you will be short one ephah of fine flour ...
Hi Greg,

That's not true, because the New Moon offering includes 7 ephahs of flour...

2. one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour,
3. mixed with oil, as a grain offering for each lamb

I forgot to hilite the "for each lamb" part in my previous post; 7 lambs = 7 ephahs.
By the way, you missed the first part of verse 11, two young bulls and one ram.
I didn't miss it; i only included those parts that were needed to satisfy the Sabbath offering requirements (notice i also left out the "kid of the goats for a sin offering").
I'm gonna go ahead and unload another round on ya, notice the day of Shouting (Trumpets); which is New Moon day of the 7th month: Numbers 29:1-6:
...
6 besides the burnt offering with its grain offering for the New Moon, ...,

Again, there is absolutely no provision for when this New Moon would fall on a Sabbath according to the 7-day continual cycle. Yet notice the bold - the continual burnt offering AND the New Moon offering are both mentioned here to be done.
I see no problem with the Sabbath falling on Trumpets. Having established that the New Moon offerings also satisfy the Sabbath offerings, they are satisfied by verse 6 (bold above) of the Trumpets requirements.
Concerning the Jubilees, according to your understanding how the first year is also the 50th year (?-if I understand you right) I guess that would be kind of like the lunar reckoning understanding; because the first day of the work week would fall on the second day of the month. :idea:
I don't think it's quite the same comparison. It's more like in Lev.25:22, where the "8th" & "9th" years (following the 7th or Sabbath year) are actually the 1st & 2nd year of the next cycle.

I'm not positive about the Jubilee cycle, that's just the way i lean at the moment. I DO think that 26AD was a Jubilee year, because that's when Yahshua gave His "Jubilee" message from Isa.61:1-2. That would put the next Jubilee in 2026 (50-year cycle) or 2035 (49-year cycle).
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

BrotherArnold
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Postby BrotherArnold » 10 Jan 2008, 10:58

Greg wrote, "Now your quote from up above states that in the "Book of Jubilees" the jubilee are based on a 49-year cycle.

See, this is a major discrepancy on what I read in my Scriptures, which we have quoted above that says the jubilee is the 50th year."

Chuck's response, "That's true, but no discrepancy. For comparison, Pentecost is the "50th day, but is also the 1st day of a new week.


Brother Arnold's RESPONSE; Brother Greg Is Right, we can only use other books such as jubilees when it does not contradict scripture.

Brother Chuck says, "Pentecost is the "50th day, but is also the 1st day of a new week.

First of all true Pentecost is not the first day of the week but even If it was it would NOT be the same thing because it is impossible for the 49th year and the 50th year to occupy the SAME SPACE at the SAME TIME I.e. the 50th year cannot be both the 49th year and the 50th year.

This is not the case with Brother Chuck's scenario. The 50th day can be the 50th day of a COUNT and the FIRST day of the WEEK and the SECOND day of the MONTH and so forth but the 50th day CANNOT be the 49th day. This is an absolute. Neither Can the 50th YEAR be the 49th YEAR neither can the first week be the second week at the same time, neither can the 50th hour be the 49th hour at the same time, neither can the first month be the second month and so on. I can show you where the 15th is the 15th day of the MONTH and the SEVENTH day of the WEEK and the FIRST day of the FEAST but the 15th DAY can never be the 16th DAY and the same is true with the YEAR etc.

If the Book of Jubilees said that the 50th DAY was the 49th DAY, I would not believe it because It contradicts scripture, so why should I believe it when it says that the 49th year is the 50th year??? I would not believe it because the Scripture teaches that the 50th day is the 50th day and that the 50th year is the 50th year. I would not believe the book of jubilees if it said that the first month was the second month neither. The Year of Jubilees breaks up the cycle of the six years of working the land and one rest and people do not like breaking up cycles. It does this with back-to-back land rests on the 49th and 50th year before the next year of sewing the land again. The new moon also breaks the cycle of the six workdays then WORSHIP with the TWO back-to-back WORSHIP days before the next workday. People go to great extremes in order to protect their doctrine even to the point of contradicting mathematical certainties. How much sadder can it be?
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...

Brother Arnold
See www.lunarsabbath.info

chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 10 Jan 2008, 22:04

[quote"BrotherArnold\]Brother Chuck says, "Pentecost is the "50th day, but is also the 1st day of a new week.

First of all true Pentecost is not the first day of the week but even If it was it would NOT be the same thing because it is impossible for the 49th year and the 50th year to occupy the SAME SPACE at the SAME TIME I.e. the 50th year cannot be both the 49th year and the 50th year.
... How much sadder can it be?[/quote]

My reply: It can be much sadder :( if someone doesn't read what they're responding to, like above.

Arnold, where did you ever get the idea of me saying the 49th year occupied the same space as the 50th year??? I never said that! In fact you correctly quoted me immediately before you twisted my words around to say something else. Regarding Jubilees, i said that "the 50th year is also the 1st year (not the 49th year) of the new cycle. But i guess some people twist other people's words when they're trying to "protect their doctrine".

The remainder of your post was null & void, because it was based on your mistaken notion of what you thought i said. :mrgreen:
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

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Watchman555
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Postby Watchman555 » 11 Jan 2008, 00:06

chuckbaldwin wrote:
Regarding Jubilees, i said that "the 50th year is also the 1st year (not the 49th year) of the new cycle. But i guess some people twist other people's words when they're trying to "protect their doctrine".



Lev. 25:3-5, 10-11:
3 "Six years you sow your field, and six years you prune your vineyard, and gather in its fruit,

Year 1-6 you sow and reap :?:

4 but in the seventh year the land is to have a Sabbath of rest, a Sabbath to Yahuah. Do not sow your field and do not prune your vineyard. 5 "Do not reap what grows of its own of your harvest, and do not gather the grapes of your unpruned vine, for it is a year of rest for the land.

Year 7 land rests, no sowing or reaping :?:

10 "And you shall set the fiftieth year apart, and proclaim release throughout all the land to all its inhabitants, it is a Jubilee for you. And each of you shall return to his possession, and each of you return to his clan. 11 "The fiftieth year is a Jubilee to you. Do not sow, nor reap what grows of its own, nor gather from its unpruned vine.

Year 50 set apart, no sowing, no reaping :?:

Year 1-6 sow and reap. :?:


:?: :?: :?: :?:


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