Posted: 17 May 2008, 12:45
The Temple Scroll gives the dates for the DSS writers.
When it comes to the Pharisees and Sadducees you have to read "between the lines" because EVERYONE uses the words "Sunday" and or after the "High Sabbath", etc.
Now those of us (Lunar Sabbath folks)who understand there was not a "High Sabbath" and then a "weekly Sabbath" a few days later, have to do some thinking as to what was originally meant.
The Pharisees wanted to wave the sheaf after the High Sabbath I believe was on Nisan 16 because Sivan 6 is very close to the date you get when counting a week of weeks and a day.
The Sadducees wanted to wave the sheaf on the "Sunday after the weekly Sabbath". The "Sunday" after the weekly Sabbath would be the first day of the week and the weekly Sabbath would be on the 22nd so.... the 23rd of Nisan would have been the the first day of the week. This would give you roughly Sivan 15/16 for Shavuot and that is when the Sadducees wanted to have the Feast (still on a "Sunday" which was more important than the date). The Sadducees did not link Shavuot with giving of the Torah.
Again, the timing of the New Grain Pentecost (Sivan 7 roughly) and New Wine Pentecost (Av 1 roughly) have the New Covenant behind them and the chronology of Exodus as well so that's what I'm going to stick with even though the dates might be different in the DSS.
An interesting sidenote I discovered is the in the year 30 CE the Essenes Passover date was the Day Before the most observed date. This is the only year in Yahusha's life that this would occure. This would explain the confusion of why some gospels mention that day as a Passover. Well, it was the Essene Passover date.
Just another curveball!
Posted: 17 May 2008, 20:53
BrotherArnold wrote: RESPONSE; the book of Jubilees also records that they did not even get to the Mount until the 16th day of the third month, which would also be a neat trick. It says,
“They came to the Mount on the 16th day of the third month.” Jubilees Chapter 1:1
Arnold, i don't know where you got that "quote", but here it is word-for-word:
1. And it happened in the first year of the exodus of the children of Israel out of Egypt, in the 3rd month, on the 16th of this month
, and [YHWH] spoke to Moses, saying: "Ascend to me here on the mountain, and i will give to thee the two stone tablets of the law and the commandments; as i have written them, thou shalt make them known."
2. And Moses ascended the mountain of [YHWH], etc, etc.....
This was 10 day after YHWH had SPOKEN the 10 Commandments on Sivan 6.
Nothing in these verses says when they ARRIVED at Sinai.
Posted: 18 May 2008, 03:34
That's great Chuck!
I had not gotten to the point of trying to reconcile what seemingly was a discrepancy with Jubilees and the other verses in Exodus.
I believe Sivan 15 is still a very important date, but this does not negate the Sivan 7/8 dates when YHWH made Himself known to the people. IMHO
I think Exodus 24:16 was added to help in our efforts
And the glory of the LORD abode upon mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud.
I believe this was Sivan 15 when Moses was called out because 40 days gives you Av 1 roughly when 3000 killed and 3000 saved (NT) and New Wine Pentecost (DSS- Av 2/3).
Do you all realize we would not even know of a New Wine Pentecost or a New Oil Pentecost if it wasn't for the DSS?
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
I would call the DSS an increase in knowledge, wouldn't you?
Posted: 18 May 2008, 05:53
cindy wrote:Do you all realize we would not even know of a New Wine Pentecost or a New Oil Pentecost if it wasn't for the DSS?
Yes, and it makes me wonder where these "extra" observances originated.
Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
I would call the DSS an increase in knowledge, wouldn't you?
Yes, but that can include both "true" knowledge AND "false" knowledge. My question is whether these "extra Pentecosts" and other additional things were originally commanded. The DSS certainly gives us historical
knowledge of certain practices, but whether they were commnaded by Yahweh can only be speculated.
p.s. In looking up Ex.24:16, i noticed that 24:12 reads almost verbatim the same as what i quoted from Jub.1:1. I'm still not sure where Arnold got his quote, although i'm aware that there must be at least 2 versions o Jubilees, because some passages are slightly different, and the verse numbers are are slightly off.
Posted: 18 May 2008, 15:59
My gut feeling here is that these feast were indeed mandated and upheld until the Temple was destroyed.
I don't have any evidence other than the following verses and the DSS.
Now the "tithes" mentioned I believe would be from the Pentecost Feasts because of the amount the Priests would need to sustain them and use in the offerings as well over the year. I can't find any detail in the OT as to how much FirstFruit of wine was to be offered. The DSS does give some amounts.
And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.
All the best of the oil, and all the best of the wine, and of the wheat, the firstfruits of them which they shall offer unto the LORD, them have I given thee.
2 Chron 31:5
And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and the tithe of all [things] brought they in abundantly.
And [that] we should bring the firstfruits of our dough , and our offerings , and the fruit of all manner of trees , of wine and of oil , unto the priests , to the chambers of the house of our God ; and the tithes of our ground unto the Levites , that the same Levites might have the tithes in all the cities of our tillage.
For the children of Israel and the children of Levi shall bring the offering of the corn, of the new wine , and the oil , unto the chambers , where [are] the vessels of the sanctuary , and the priests that minister , and the porters , and the singers : and we will not forsake the house of our God.
And he had prepared for him a great chamber, where aforetime they laid the meat offerings, the frankincense, and the vessels, and the tithes of the corn, the new wine, and the oil, which was commanded [to be given] to the Levites, and the singers, and the porters; and the offerings of the priests.
Too, I'm thinking there is nothing in the Mishnah on this because it was atonement for the wine when in the land and also, the Pentecost of New Wine was a milestone of the New Covenant and from what I gather great efforts were made to destroy any remnants of this movement over time.