Pentecost "NOT" In 3rd Month

[Watchman555]

Shalom Everybody~

The Scriptures I brought up earlier, I thought there might be some interest in the fact that the slaughter offerings for these days were different.

Anyway, if you count 50 days or number 7 weeks and the morrow after the Sabbath, let say is the 50th day, aren't we supposed to bring a new grain offering? Like Arnold had mentioned, I think that is a very valid point - this year was kind of interesting for us; because we put on the mind-set of 7 weeks + 50 days, interestingly enough about a week before the 50 day count was up they were just starting to harvest the wheat. I know, we're in indiana, which is a little bit colder climate than Israel, but I thought that was interesting.

Now is there a wheat harvest in the third lunar month in Israel? Past? Present?

~Greg

[BrotherArnold]

interestingly enough about a week before the 50 day count was up they were just starting to harvest the wheat.

RESPONSE; a week before the 50 day would give them time to thrash the wheat, have it ground and bring the two wave loaves of the first fruits out of your houses.

My summer wheat here in Georgia, does the same, and we are on the same climate as Israel.
I challenge anyone to find any winter wheat, which is harvested in the spring, in Scripture. The only wheat found in Scripture is the wheat that is planted in the first month and harvested in the fourth. At this time the grapes will be ripe, for the new wine offering at Pentecost. See Acts and Joel

Brother Arnold

[Watchman555]

Shalom Arnold and All~

Ex. 34:21-22:
21 “Six days you work, but on the seventh day you rest – in ploughing time and in harvest you rest. 22 “And perform the Festival of Weeks for yourself, of the first-fruits of wheat harvest, and the Festival of Ingathering at the turn of the year.

Depending upon how one looks at this verse, it might suggest that both of these festivals spoken of here occur at the turn of the year. Tekufah. Equinox/solstice. I guess my point is, if the first-fruits of the wheat harvest are in the third month, there is no turn of the year at that point, but if it is in the fourth month, you find that the tekufah is at that time.

Example: (using man's calendar dates)

This year we kept Feast of Weeks/pentecost on 05/20. Look - no tekufah. When we observed 50 days later which was 07/09, like we said tekufah took place on 06/21. Minus the 7-10 days before that 50-day count we noticed them in the fields, putting the date at roughly the end of man's 6th month, again, tekufah took place on 06/21, 8-10 days before the harvest started. That is interesting when compared to the spring feast in which the wave-sheaf offering is traditionally waved on the 16th, which means they were harvesting before that date to prepare the wave omer. This occurs, depending on the moon, relatively close to the spring tekufah.

~Greg

[BrotherArnold]

Shalom Brother Greg,
"Here's what the traditional count would look like, 1 - 3 - - - 7 and here's what YHWH's count looks like, 1 - - 4 - - 7 see how smooth it is with no bumps and skips, compared to man's chopped up tradition.

His feast are held three times in the year, spaced out with three-month in between, spring, summer, and fall. Not "Spring", "Spring, and "Fall”, and each one of these happens around the year's end/turning which is In harmony with Genesis 1:14, and the sun is involved in all three of these feast, not just two. You have a turning on March 21st, and another on June 21st and another on September the 21st and at these seasons we have major appointments. There is another turning on December 21st, winter solstice, and to my knowledge there is no feast commanded here but yet the world has one on the 25th day of December but neglect the commanded ones.


I have shown where Aaron the high priest proclaimed a CHAG/Pilgrim feast in the fourth month and it was exactly 50 days after the "Seventh" lunar Sabbath complete, it will not work with the traditional Sabbath. I challenge anyone to show where there is a CHAG mentioned in the "third"? month, for the traditional Pentecost. I have had no takers.

We have a chag mentioned in the "first month and in the "FOURTH month and in the "seventh month but never do we have one mentioned in the third month (or December), therefore the count cannot begin 50 days after unleavened bread, but 50 days after the seventh Sabbath. With no third month feast found in scripture, we should not even be discussing this subject except for tradition of men.

1st - - 4th - - 7th are CHAGs with two months between each.

Here's what the traditional count look's like, 1 - 3 - - - 7 and here's what YHWH's count looks like, 1 - - 4 - - 7 see how smooth it is with no bumps and skips, compared to man's chopped up tradition. with man's count they would not have gotten-home good before time to go back up and one-day.

His feasts are held three times in the year, spring, summer, and fall. "NOT "Spring", "Spring", and fall.

Some like to argue That the scripture only mentions Summer and Winter but the former and lateral rain, spoken of in the prophet Joel is referring to the "Spring" and "Fall" rains and some translators even translate it that way. I will have brother Matthew deal with that later, but it is evident from the Historical evidence that the Jews that live back then recognized "four" seasons, whether people want to accept it or not.

Philo says in THE SPECIAL LAWS, IV (235) page 639 of my Yonge's translation, says "for as the atmosphere is divided by an equal number of months into winter, and spring, and summer, and autumn, it complete the whole year by allotting "ThreE" months to each season;

And in THE SPECIAL LAWS, I, THE SIXTH FESTIVAL XXIX. (175) he says,
"And there are many meanings intended by this offering of the first fruits. In the first place they are a memorial of Creator; secondly, they are a most just requital to be offered to him who is the real cause of all fertility; (175) and the sheaf of the first fruits is barley, calculated for the innocent and blameless use of the inferior animals; for since it is not consistent with holiness to offer first fruits of everything, since most things are made rather for pleasure than for any actually indispensable use, it is also not consistent with holiness to enjoy and partake of any thing which is given for food, without first giving thanks to that being to whom it is becoming and pious to offer them.
That portion of the food which was honoured with the second place, namely, barley, was ordered by the Law to be offered as first fruits; for the first honours were assigned to wheat, of which it has deferred the offering of the first fruits, as being more honourable, to a MORE SUITABLE "Season.

I believe a more suitable season is referring to summer, and the feasts are spaced out as I have demonstrated above.

[chuckbaldwin]

“Here's what the traditional count would look like, 1 - 3 - - - 7 and here's what YHWH’s count looks like, 1 - - 4 - - 7 see how smooth it is with no bumps and skips, compared to man’s chopped up tradition.

WRONG, Arnold! That's Arnold's count, not YHWH's. And you're taking His Name in vain by arrogantly ascribing it to YOUR doctrine!

You can't force YHWH to make everything "smooth" just for you. How about the 7th month Holydays? They look like this:

1--------10----15------22

Whoops! According to your logic, YHWH made a mistake, and it should look like this, with Atonement on the 8th instead of the 10th:

1------8------15------22

See how "smooth" that is, with exactly 6 days between each Holyday.
Well, i'll stop here. I'm sure you're anxious to go to YHWH and point out His "mistake".

[JMSchattke]

The barley harvest in Palestine comes in around the equinox.
wheat grows slower than barley, but not that much slower. Around 50 days later is about right.

I'm sure you could contact the agricultural department of the Israeli University, and they'd be able to tel you exactly the difference.

You are, once again, talking from some place other than your mouth.

[eriqbenel]

WRONG, Arnold! That's Arnold's count, not YHWH's. And you're taking His Name in vain by arrogantly ascribing it to YOUR doctrine!

You can't force YHWH to make everything "smooth" just for you. How about the 7th month Holydays? They look like this:

1--------10----15------22

Whoops! According to your logic, YHWH made a mistake, and it should look like this, with Atonement on the 8th instead of the 10th:

1------8------15------22

See how "smooth" that is, with exactly 6 days between each Holyday.
Well, i'll stop here. I'm sure you're anxious to go to YHWH and point out His "mistake". Mr. Green

Just for general information, Arnold has a farm. He grows barley. Not only that Arnold and I DID contact several global Agricultural authorities to get information on the agricultural patterns of Israel and Egypt.

This is called a little research folks. Not to mention, his first hand experience farming the product. Therefore, I would be inclined to believe EXPERIENCE and RESEARCH over the empty opinions of a man who spends all his time debating on forums.

[BrotherArnold]

The barley harvest in Palestine comes in around the equinox.
wheat grows slower than barley, but not that much slower. Around 50 days later is about right.

I'm sure you could contact the agricultural department of the Israeli University, and they'd be able to tel you exactly the difference.

You are, once again, talking from some place other than your mouth.

RESPONSE; I agree there is a winter wheat harvest that takes approximately two weeks after barley harvest and this is what the blind Jews useful Pentecost wheat but there is no such wheat found in scripture. The winter wheat takes seven months to harvest and the summer/spring wheat takes four months to harvest as our Sager said in John. It is planted in the first month and harvested at the end of the fourth and that is why it was not destroyed by plague of the cattle killing hail, because it had not come up yet, but every green herb of the field that was up was destroyed.

You may want to check with the Israeli University and you will find that they are TWO types of wheat harvest, winter wheat and spring wheat. Most people do not know this because they are not farmers. The new meet offering is from the spring wheat and the only wheat that can be found in scripture which is sowen in the springtime and Harvested in the summer, which is 50 days AFTER the seventh Sabbath complete. This will allow the time for the grapes to be in the wine presses, On the day of Pentecost as the book a Actst and the book of Joel demands. This is why every time I challenge someone to find a third month harvest or feast in scripture everything is silence. THERE ARE TWO wheat harvest in Israel and Georgia.

Brother Arnold.

[BrotherArnold]

DOING THE MATH MATHEMATICALLY PROVES PAUL KEPT PENTECOST BEYOND THE TRADITIONAL 50 DAY COUNT TO PENTECOST IN THE THIRD MONTH

The following will show that the apostle Paul did not keep the third month Pentecost because it shows him keeping Pentecost beyond the traditional 50 day count and not only Paul but tens of thousands of believing Jews were also keeping Pentecost beyond the traditional 50 day count, talk about two or three witnesses! Now to the the math.

We have Scripture that shows that Paul left Philippi after the days of unleavened bread and then travels to Jerusalem to keep Pentecost. It is approximately 1075 mi. from Philippi to Jerusalem and Paul has 50 days to be at the end of the 1075 mi. journey but he only has 18 days or less in which to travel the 1075 mi. according to the traditional Pentecost count.

I contend that it is IMPOSSIBLE for Paul to have traveled that distance in 18 days. You might ask, why 18 days or less, did he not have 50 days to make the trip to Jerusalem in time for Pentecost? The answer is yes, he had 50 days to make the journey but according to Scripture he only had 18 days of travel time. The Scripture clearly shows that there were at LEAST 32 of the 50 days where Paul was not traveling, and this leaves only 18 travel days to cover a distance of 1075mi. Can it be done? Not with the traditional third month Pentecost count.

When you divided 18 days into 1075 miles you quickly see they would have had to average approximately 60 miles per day and when we read the Scriptures we see that they did not averaged 60 mi. per day, only about half that, as I will show later. About 120 of these miles were across land and where traveled on foot. i.e. After they landed in Tyre, the ship was unloaded, ever how long that took, and if they sailed from Tyre to Ptolemais, which is about 30 mi., the land travel with be about 40mi. from Ptolemais to Caesarea and about 70 mi. from Caesarea to Jerusalem, totaling 120 mi. According to the book Jesus and His Times, 1987 by The Reader's Digest Association, Inc., Pleasantville, NY, page 193, people on foot averaged around 15 to 20 miles per day.
Did he accomplish the 60 mi. per day average?

We will now count the conclusive no travel days found in Chapter 20 and 21 of the book of Acts which conclusively proves Paul only had 18 days or less to travel the 1075 mi., I will explain the or less later.

Counting the 50 days to Pentecost from the 16th of the first month/ABIB, when Paul sailed away from Philippi until he arrived at Jerusalem. I found that at least 32 of the 50 days were not traveling days, which were the six days of Unleavened Bread, 16th through the 21st, Acts 20:6, the seven days they abode at Troas, Acts 20:6, and at least three days at Miletus while sending up to Ephesus, which was over 30 mi. one way, Acts 20:17, and they also tarried seven days with disciples in Acts 21:4 and then abode one day with some brethern in verse seven of the same chapter for a total of 24 days, there are more but for simplicity and easy figuring, this will suffice enough to MATHEMATICALLY show the impossibility of a third month Pentecost.

The reason I say this is because the Apostle Luke records that they tarried MANY DAYS in Acts 21:10 and if we allow many days to mean as little as eight days, this brings us to 32 no travel days, not counting any of the weekly Sabbath no travel days.

One Brother tried to claim that we should understand the many days as seven days, which still would still not help him in the traditional count, as you will soon see. Luke had already used the term seven days twice in the text and would have used it hear it that had been the case. Then the same brother claimed that Luke had forgotten how many days it was that they stayed at Caesarea and my answer to that was, the reason he had forgotten is because it was more than seven because we know that he remembered tarrying seven days at two different places and I can see how that if they had stayed at Caesarea 16 or 23, or even 39 etc. then Luke would not have remembered exactly how many days it was, but he would have remembered if it had been seven or less. There is one thing that we do know for sure, and that is that he remembered it was "MANY DAYS", he did remember that much. I think I am being more than generous by only allowing eight days to represent the phrase many days and that is why I say that there were at LEAST 32 no travel days.

I am not so arrogant as to say that I know exactly how many days they tarried at Caesarea but neither am I so naïve as to believe it was only seven days or less as the brother suggested. Just think if I claimed they tarried 14 days as one commentary suggests, this would take six more days off of the 18 travel days, leaving only 12 days to travel the required 1075 mi. that would be about 90 mi. per day, creating an even greater embarrassment to the traditional Pentecost keepers who count 50 days from the wave sheaf instead of 50 days AFTER the seventh Sabbath complete as prescribed in Leviticus 23:16. Here's a quote from The Expositor's Bible Commentary, Vol. 9, p. 517, this phrase in Acts 21:10

"The timing of Shaul's stopovers from Troas to Caesarea had been largely dependent on the shipping schedules. But having disembarked at Caesarea, he could arrange his own schedule. For a man in a hurry to get to Jerusalem, this delay of several days (perhaps up to two weeks) seems strange"

It would only seem strange to someone who has been conditioned to think the 50 days are counted from the wave sheaf instead of 50 days after the seventh Sabbath. The reason he said up to two weeks shows that he believes Pentecost is 50 days after the wave sheaf. Paul did not break his journey but after reaching Caesarea, he is now in control of his schedule and does not have to depend on a ship captain or nature, winds etc. he knows what he can do on foot.

Another commentary says,
"A plain and full prediction of the sufferings of Paul, by a noted prophet, v. 10 1. Paul and his company tarried many days at Caesarea, perhaps Cornelius was yet living there, and (though Philip lodged them) yet might be many ways kind to them, and induce them to stay there. What cause Paul saw to tarry so long there, and to make so little haste at the latter end of his journey to Jerusalem, when he seemed so much in haste at the beginning of it, we cannot tell; but we are sure he did not stay either there or any where else to be idle; he measured his time by days, and numbered them.

Notice this commentary also does not understand why Paul could tarry many days but if they understood the true count to Pentecost they would realize that Paul had a prosperous journey to Caesarea and had rather spend these many days at Caesarea than to get up to Jerusalem over a week or two early. The same commentary goes on to say,
"2. Agabus the prophet came to Caesarea from Judea; this was he of whom we read before, who came from Jerusalem to Antioch, to foretel a general famine, ch. 11:27 ...... It should seem as if Agabus came on purpose to Caesarea, to meet Paul with this prophetic intelligence. 3. He foretold Paul’s bonds at Jerusalem, (1.) By a sign, as the prophets of old did, Isaiah (and many others. Agabus took Paul’s girdle, when he laid it by, or perhaps took it from about him, and with it bound first his own hands, and then his own feet, or perhaps bound his hands and feet together; this was designed both to confirm the prophecy (it was as sure to be done as if it were done already) and to affect those about him with it, because that which we see usually makes a greater impression upon us than that which we only hear of."

Notice if this is true and the prophet traveled up to Caesarea, this also indicates a many days stay at Caesarea.

Try to be honest with yourself and look up the word "many" in Scripture and see if you can honestly say it means anything less than 40. The reason I say 40 is because there is a Scripture that says that Paul was beaten with "many" stripes and another scripture that says 40 stripes save one. In other words the many strikes can be equated with the 40 stripes. Another place it says that our Saviour was seen of them 40 days, and another Scripture says "many" days, again equating many days with 40 days. It rained 40 days and 40 nights and of course the waters were on the earth for many days. 40 days would fit perfect with counting 50 days after the seventh Sabbath according to Leviticus 23:16. The Scripture uses the phrase, many words, many people, many lights, etc. but I don't think anyone would construe this to mean anything less than 8 and therefore I am justified in using an eight for the many days then they abode in Caesarea and that is being very generous. The Scripture even insinuate many days is more than one or seven because he just got through saying we abode seven days here and then one day there and when we came to Caesarea we abode MANY days. Without any examples in scripture that show many days could be less than eight, what would make a man want to say that it was less unless it was interfering with their tradition???


We have shown from Scripture the nontravel days, and did not even count the 7 weekly Sabbath that would fall within the 50 days which are also no travel days. Having said that, we will now look at the miles they traveled during these 18 traveling days and see if it was possible for Paul to have kept the traditional Pentecost.


5 travel days were from Philippi to Troas which covered approximately 125 mi. Another was the One day where Paul traveled 20 mi. from Troas to Assos which totals six travel days and 145 mi. Another of the 18 travel days was when they sailed from Assos to Mitylene which is 50 mi. totaling 195 mi. and seven traveling days.

Then from Mitylene to Chios which appears to be about 80 mi. totals 275 mi. and eight traveling days. Then from Chios to Samos which is about 50 mi. totals 325 mi. and nine travel days.

Then from Samos to Miletus which is about 30 mi. totaling 355 mi. and 10 traveling days.

Then from Miletus to Coos which is about 60 mi. totaling 415 mi. and 11 travel days. Then from Coos to Rhodes which is about 50 mi. totaling 465 mi. and 12 travel days.

Then from Rhodes to Patara appears to be about 75 mi. totaling 540 mi. and 13 travel days.

We now have only five travel days remaining in which to travel the remaining 535 mi. and approximately 120 of these will have to be on foot as I will explain later. Can it be done? NO! It cannot be done, it would take five days just to travel the 120 days on foot or five days to travel the 400 hundred miles by sea from Pareta to Tyre. You would need another five days to make it mathematically possible to travel both to these distances.

The next part of the timeline is from Patara to Tyre which is about 400 mi. but it does not say how many days it took them to get there, so I'll just put this part of the timeline on hold for now and come back to it in a minute.


After landing in Tyre and finishing their course, they went to Ptolemais which is about 30 mi. where they abode one day with the brethren which I have already counted the one day with the no travel days above. Not sure what to do with this 30 mi. and the 40 mi. from Ptolemais to Caesarea and then 70 mi. from Caesarea to Jerusalem. But at any rate they only have five travel days remaining to travel 535 mi. and 120 of these miles will be by foot. How do we handle this, assuming I am correct in my count? It would take five days on foot just to travel the 120 mi. and you still have the 400 mi. trip by ship that we did not deal with above. According to the book Jesus and His Times, 1987, by The Reader's Digest Association, Inc., Pleasantville, NY, page 193, people on foot averaged around 15 to 20 miles per day.

Using the above figures you can do the math and see how long it took them to travel the 120 mi.

I didn't even mention the possibility of weekly Sabbaths that might fall in a way to make a few more no travel days. Let's say there seven sabbaths in 50 days and two of them would be covered in the two 7 days layovers which would leave five more no travel days and then there would be 37 no travel days instead of 32, leaving only 13 travel days days, in which to travel the 1075 mi., instead of 18.

The history I read shows ship sailed within sight of land and could easily pull into a town or village for the Sabbath and then continue their journey afterwards and perhaps when they made the 120 mi. journey on land to Jerusalem, they could have stopped alone the way for the weekly Sabbath, which is not mentioned in Scripture. Using this logic I could easily add more nontravel days making it even more impossible if there is such a thing, for them to have made the 1075 mi. trip in his little as 12 days or less But the fact of the matter is, without using any of the weekly Sabbath no travel days, it is absolutely impossible for Paul to have kept the traditional Pentecost 50 days after the wave sheaf so therefore he obviously kept the true Pentecost 50 days after the seventh Sabbath complete according to Leviticus 23:16 and the many scriptural proofs and examples that I have given in other chapters.

I could have taken each stop and argued that they stayed longer at certain places because it does not say one way or the other and I could argue that it took time to locating ship going in their direction, days, and sometimes weeks, and I could have shown how Paul was not as a pony express rider who jumped off one horse and on to the next as if Paul had a ship waiting on him each time etc. but I knew that would not convince anyone but the mathematical aspect of it cannot intelligently be argued against. As the old saying goes, figures never lie and liars never figure.

If this were not enough I can also show that Paul arrived early enough before Pentecost to fellowship with the brethren and the next day go in unto James and all the elders and be advised of them that there were many thousands of believing Jews who had gathered early for Pentecost because they were zealous of the Law and Paul purifying himself seven days with some men that had a vow on them and show these thousands of Jews that Paul also walks orderly and keeps the Law. All this was at least seven days BEFORE Pentecost. I it would not my sense to purify yourself AFTER the holy Days. Purification would have taken place BEFORE the Holy Feast days and the Jews from Asia that had come down of Pentecost, which discover Paul in the temple just before the seven days was over, most likely would have already left for the long trip back home because Asia was a long way from Jerusalem, approximately 600 mi. and they were no different from people of today, who have work and other things to do. At any rate the Scripture and verbiage definitely shows Pentecost had not fully come BEFORE the seven days of purification. It shows they were all up there anticipating and getting ready for this great feast which commemorates the day the Law. The Law was written with the finger of YHWH, and given to Moses at the END of the 40 days and 40 nights, which was 50 days after the seventh Sabbath complete. I will now give you Scripture and Historical evidence that shows they went up to Jerusalem seven days BEFORE the feast to purify themselves.

If Paul left in just enough time to barely get there for service, like some preachers today, how would you account for all the devout Jews that were gathered there BEFORE PENTECOST? The historian Josephus even tells how they went up seven days early to purify themselves.
In Josephus wars of the Jews pg. 742 Ch 5- (290) "when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus [Nisan]," The foot note "e" in Josephus says that a week before Passover they went up to Jerusalem to PURIFY themselves, John 11:55 agrees with Josephus, quote:

The great crowds spoken of here could be referring to where The Elders says that Paul, "see how many thousands of Jews that believe"

John 11:55
"And the Jews' passover was nigh at hand: and many went out of the country up to Jerusalem BEFORE the Passover, to PURIFY themselves"
I believe the many that went up before the feast were the devout Jews.
John 12:1 is also in agreement with Josephus. "1Then our Saviour six days BEFORE the Passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead. 2There they made him a supper; and"
Remember how He went in and out the temple and back to Bethany each day before they took Him on the 14th These quotes and Scripture prove that normally the Jews went up to Jerusalem early before Pentecost and that's why James said that they were zealous toward the Law, (Pentecost) and that is why they went up early.
Paul was no less devout than these Jews and besides it had been many years since he had been up to Jerusalem and he said he must by all means keep this feast that cometh up at Jerusalem. This statement shows that Paul was not going up just to be on time for Pentecost, but to witness and fellowship before Pentecost and the fact that he abode many days at Philips house shows that he had plenty of time to arrive at Jerusalem a week or two before Pentecost to accomplish his intent.
Also the Jews from Asia saw Paul in the temple when the seven days was almost ended, probably near evenjng, they stirred up the people against Paul etc. my point is these Jews from Asia and this multitude of people should have been gone home seven days after Pentecost. Pentecost was not begun yet because when the soldiers took Paul to Caesarea, his accusers were to follow them down which they did AFTER five days Ananias the high priest and others came down to accuse Paul but why did they wait five days to do this unless they were busy keeping Pentecost at Jerusalem and after it was over they came down but not before it was over. All these things and many more to numerous to mention shows that Pentecost is 50 days after the seventh Sabbath complete instead of 50 days after the wave sheaf.
The book of Acts is telling us where they traveled to, but is not telling us how far and how long it took to get to each stop where the captain of the ship probably traded goods and took on goods and passengers at each stop and also allowed passengers to freshen up etc. I will explain and give history later how they stayed overnight and done most of the traveling during the day which was much safer.

Brother Arnold

[chuckbaldwin]

I won't take the time to go into detail, but i do have 3 comments about Paul's trip to Jerusalem in Acts 20.

Act.20:16 For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.

1. Note the big "IF". Paul wasn't sure if it was possible to make it in time. If he had 3 whole months to make it, i don't believe he would have had this concern, or the need to "haste".

2. If i remember from the previous discussion, the Scripture isn't absolutely clear as to whether he actually made it in time or not.

3. Both Larry Acheson and myself, with 2 independent calculations (very similar but with some variations), determined that Paul could very well have made it to Jerusalem in time for Pentecost in the 1st half of the 3rd month -- just barely, which is why he had to "haste".

[cindy]

Shalom Shalom Everyone,

I'm new to the forum.
I have been reading most of the entries when I have time.
This week and weekend have been terribly busy.
But, I have been doing research on this topic of Shavuot and I wanted to share what I found.

1. Josephus mentions Shavuot in Antiquities...

6. When a week of weeks has passed over after this sacrifice, (which weeks contain forty and nine days,) on the fiftieth day, which is Pentecost, but is called by the Hebrews Asartha, which signifies Pentecost, they bring to God a loaf, made of wheat flour, of two tenth deals, with leaven; and for sacrifices they bring two lambs; and when they have only presented them to God, they are made ready for supper for the priests; nor is it permitted to leave any thing of them till the day following. They also slay three bullocks for a burnt-offering, and two rams; and fourteen lambs, with two kids of the goats, for sins; nor is there anyone of the festivals but in it they offer burnt-offerings; they also allow themselves to rest on every one of them. Accordingly, the law prescribes in them all what kinds they are to sacrifice, and how they are to rest entirely, and must slay sacrifices, in order to feast upon them. (Book III, Antiquities of the Jews)

Now if you read Leviticus...

Lev 23:16-22
Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.
Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; [they are] the firstfruits unto the LORD.And ye shall offer with the bread seven lambs without blemish of the first year, and one young bullock, and two rams: they shall be [for] a burnt offering unto the LORD, with their meat offering, and their drink offerings, [even] an offering made by fire, of sweet savour unto the LORD.
Then ye shall sacrifice one kid of the goats for a sin offering, and two lambs of the first year for a sacrifice of peace offerings.And the priest shall wave them with the bread of the firstfruits [for] a wave offering before the LORD, with the two lambs: they shall be holy to the LORD for the priest.And ye shall proclaim on the selfsame day, [that] it may be an holy convocation unto you: ye shall do no servile work [therein: it shall be] a statute for ever in all your dwellings throughout your generations.And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field when thou reapest, neither shalt thou gather any gleaning of thy harvest: thou shalt leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I [am] the LORD your God.

You will notice the sacrifices are not equal.
My conclusion is that the sacrifices for NEW MOON and SHAVUOT were combined since to my reckoning of Shavuot it would have been on Av New Moon.

2. According to the Exodus timeline the event of the Golden Calf in AV and the 3000 killed (because of it) would correspond to the 3000 saved in 30 CE when the Kadosh Ruach fell on the believers.

3. An entry in Jubilees is very interesting.....
Jubilees 6
20 And do thou command the children of Israel to observe this festival in all their generations for a
21 commandment unto them: one day in the year in this month they shall celebrate the festival. For it is the feast of weeks and the feast of first fruits: this feast is TWOFOLD (my emphasis) and of a double nature:

I'm thinking there were two celebrations. The first when the marriage was sealed with blood and later when the first tablets came down (40 days later).

4. I'm convinced that important dates mean something more than the obvious telling of time. A code if you will.

Ezra 7:6-10

This Ezra went up from Babylon; and he [was] a ready scribe in the law of Moses, which the LORD God of Israel had given: and the king granted him all his request, according to the hand of the LORD his God upon him.And there went up [some] of the children of Israel, and of the priests, and the Levites, and the singers, and the porters, and the Nethinims, unto Jerusalem, in the seventh year of Artaxerxes the king.And he came to Jerusalem in the fifth month, which [was] in the seventh year of the king.For upon the first [day] of the first month began he to go up from Babylon, and on the first [day] of the fifth month (AV) came he to Jerusalem, according to the good hand of his God upon him.For Ezra had prepared his heart to seek the law of the LORD, and to do [it], and to teach in Israel statutes and judgments.

5. This entry in Philo tells of the law being given at the Feast of Trumpets.
This would only work if you reckon the exodus timeline in this way...

Av New Moon- Moses comes down and smashs first set of tablets because of golden calf incident.
Av 9th- Contrition of people
Av 15- YHWH tells Moses to come back up the Mount and He will write on another set of tablets.
Moses on Mount another 40 days.
Tishri New Moon- Moses comes down the Mount with the Tablets that will be carried in the Ark therafter.

That witness is Philo of Alexandria (~20 BCE-40 CE):

The Eighth Festival

XXXI. (188) Immediately after comes the festival of the sacred moon; in which it is the custom to play the trumpet in the temple at the same moment that the sacrifices are offered. From which practice this is called the true feast of trumpets, and there are two reasons for it, one peculiar to the nation, and the other common to all mankind. Peculiar to the nation, as being a commemoration of that most marvellous, wonderful, and miraculous event that took place when the holy oracles of the law were given; (189) for then the voice of a trumpet sounded from heaven, which it is natural to suppose reached to the very extremities of the universe, so that so wondrous a sound attracted all who were present, making them consider, as it is probable, that such mighty events were signs betokening some great things to be accomplished. (190) And what more great or more beneficial thing could come to men than laws affecting the whole race?[4]

Lastly, In my research I have reading some on Canaanite/Phoenician Religion and have seen many similarities. I'm thinking that YHWH wants us to go WAY BACK to his original HOLY DAYS before they were corrupted by Pagan religions and man's calendars.

This would mean relying on the KAdosh Ruach to lead us into how YHWH really wants to worship HIM on HIS Holy Days because there is no record of worship practices that have not been tainted.
The Talmud and Mishnah and Gemara have all been tainted.


Of course we do not want to throw the baby out with the bathwater and these writings do have much good to say.

With the Lunar Sabbath pulling many of us out of Babylon even more and now the Shavuot questions YHWH wants us to rely on HIS Spirit even more.

It's so exciting when the Spirit moves. I will pray for all of us to have strength to move together in this journey.

I will try to answer any posts after this. It might not be until next week though.

Have a wonderful Pesach.
Cindy

[BrotherArnold]

THE SEVENTH FESTIVAL

XXX. (176) The solemn assembly on the occasion of the festival of the sheaf having such great privileges, is the PRELUDE to another festival OF STILL greater importance; FOR (OR BECAUSE) from this day the fiftieth day is reckoned, (I believe the feast that is of still greater importance than the 16th is referring to the morrow after the seventh Sabbath complete when you number the 50 days according to Leviticus 23:16) making up the sacred number of seven sevens, with the addition of a unit as a seal to the whole; (i.e. seven sevens plus one which makes 50, plus there were men keeping a prelude or kind of fore feast to Pentecost on the morrow after the seventh Sabbath on page704) and this festival, being that of the first fruits of the corn, has derived its name of pentecost from the number of fifty, (penteµkostos). And on it it is the custom to offer up two leavened loaves made of wheat, as a first fruit of the best kind of food made of corn; ……(I shortened it some but you can check it)

(179)The feast which takes place on the basis of the number fifty has received the name "The feast of the first produce" since during the feast it is customary to offer two leavened loaves made from wheat as the first fruit of grain, the best food. It is named "The feast of the first produce" either because before the annual crop has proceeded to human use,(took out some more to shorten)

(186) and these first fruits are loaves, not corn, because when there is corn there is no longer anything wanting for the enjoyment of food, for it is said that the wheat is the last of all the grains which are sown to ripen and to come to harvest. (187) And there are thus two most excellent acts of thanksgiving having a reference to two distinct times; to the past, in which we have been saved from experiencing the evils of scarcity and hunger while living in happiness and plenty; and to the future, because we have provided ourselves with supplies and abundant preparations for it. (I left this in tact to show that the above is still talking about Pentecost wheat/firstfruits etc. but now notice this next Chapter could still be referring to Pentecost and the sacred new moon that begins the FIFTH month, notice what it says,)

THE EIGHTH FESTIVAL

XXXI. (188) Immediately after comes the festival of the sacred moon; in which it is the custom to play the trumpet in the temple at the same moment that the sacrifices are offered. From which practice this is called the TRUE FEAST OF TRUMPETS, and there are two reasons for it, (before we go into the two reasons, notice a couple of things, this particular new moon which Philo called the sacred moon, comes IMMEDIATELY after Pentecost and it is a time that the trumpets were blown at the same time the new moon offerings were made and when we see the two reasons was to commemorate Pentecost which according to my thinking is generally the day before the FIFTH new moon day.) (Continuing on with the reasons that this new moon day that immediately follows Pentecost is called the TRUE feast of trumpets which shows he is not referring to the seventh month trumpets)

one peculiar to the nation, and the other common to all mankind. Peculiar to the nation, as being a COMMEMORATION of that most marvellous, wonderful, and miraculous event that took place when the HOLY ORACLES OF THE LAW WERE GIVEN; (we know the law was not given in the seventh month but the fifth new moon that comes IMMEDIATELY after Pentecost, where the trumpets were blown in the temple at the same time the offering was made to commemorate the given of the law.) (Continuing on)

(189) for then the voice of a trumpet sounded from heaven, which it is natural to suppose reached to the very extremities of the universe, so that so wondrous a sound attracted all who were present, making them consider, as it is probable, that such mighty events were signs betokening SOME GREAT THINGS to be accomplished. (190) And what more great or more beneficial thing could come to men than LAWS affecting THE WHOLE RACE?

And what was common to all mankind was this: the trumpet is the instrument of war, sounding both when commanding the charge and the retreat. ...(I did not put these dots, they were added to show that something is missing here and I believe that up into this point is speaking of Pentecost and the new moon day that happens at that time which they called the true feast of trumpets because a scripture teaches the trumpet sounded so loud that the people feared when He first spoke the law. I believe the dots above shows they left out something, possibly something they could not figure in because of their traditional mind set of a third month Pentecost and when we continue on our believe it's talking about the seventh month feast of trumpet.) (Continuing on)

There is also another kind of war, ordained of God, WHEN NATURE IS AT VARIANCE WITH ITSELF, its different parts attacking one another. (This is possibly talking about the changing from summer to fall) (continuing on) (191) And by both these kinds of war the things on earth are injured. They are injured by the enemies, by the cutting down of trees, and by conflagrations; and also by natural injuries, such as droughts, heavy rains, lightning from heaven, snow and cold; the usual harmony of the SEASONS of the year being transformed into a want of all concord.

(192) On this account it is that the law has given THIS FESTIVAL the name of a warlike instrument, in order to show the proper gratitude to God as the giver of peace, who has abolished all seditions in cities, and in all parts of the universe, and has produced plenty and prosperity, not allowing a single spark that could tend to the destruction of the crops to be kindled into flame. (I believe this could be referring to the seventh month feast of trumpets and then it goes into the day of atonement festival.

[BrotherArnold]

I won't take the time to go into detail, but i do have 3 comments about Paul's trip to Jerusalem in Acts 20.

Act.20:16 For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.

1. Note the big "IF". Paul wasn't sure if it was possible to make it in time. If he had 3 whole months to make it, i don't believe he would have had this concern, or the need to "haste".

RESPONSE; Paul wasn't sure if it was possible to make it in time and at first he made haste because of the uncertainty of the weather and ship schedule’s etc. but it is obvious he had a prosperous journey and was a few weeks or so ahead of schedule because he abode MANY days at Philip’s house and is now in control of the journey. He leaves in plenty of time for Pentecost and they were 10’s of thousands of Jews there. All anyone has to do to prove he made it to Jerusalem for Pentecost is read the running account beginning at Acts 20:6. and the unbisous will find there is NO reason to believe he did not make it,

2. If i remember from the previous discussion, the Scripture isn't absolutely clear as to whether he actually made it in time or not.

RESPONSE; I remember from the previous discussion, the Scripture was absolutely clear as to whether he actually made it in time or not. They were others that had also made it, even the Jews from Asia which is about 600 miles from Jerusalem, who found Paul in the Temple purifying and stired up the people..


3. Both Larry Acheson and myself, with 2 independent calculations (very similar but with some variations), determined that Paul could very well have made it to Jerusalem in time for Pentecost in the 1st half of the 3rd month -- just barely, which is why he had to "haste".

RESPONSE; check the math in my above post and you will see you were both wrong. Why would he have stayed many days at Philips house if that is why he had to "haste"?

Paul only had 18 days or less to travel 1075 miles and the first 5 days he only made 125 miles and abode 7 days then only made about 20 miles the dat he left Trois. This leaves 945 miles and 12 travel days or less to make it in time for the tradiomal Pentecost. Read my post above.

Brother Arnold

[cindy]

Hello,

I think for this discussion we need to understand what we mean by certain words like Pentecost and Shavuot and First Fruits.

Because, their meanings have changed dramatically over time and it is causing confusion (I wonder who authored that?).

Pentecost according to the NT happened in the Temple and "3000 were saved". According to Exodus this happened 40 days+ after the marriage contract (Av 1) when 3000 were smited because of the golden calf (and Aaron died 40 years later on that date, too).

Shabuoth, according to Jubilees, was a time of Memorial for the OATHS that were taken by Noah and Abraham. There is a long notation in the Psuedepigrapha volumne 2 page 67- James Charlesworth.
The book of Jubilees does not identify this Feast day by the passing of seven weeks.
It does mention that it occurs "in the middle of the third month" when Abraham offered the New Grain and YHWH changed his name (Sivan 15).

I will venture to say that all this is a process to get back to the original time frames and Feast Days which have been confused.

From what I am finding out the walk at this point is by FAITH.

For me the differences in offerings in Numbers 28 and Lev 23 and the Exodus account of the 3000 are what make me believe that there was more going on in the Second Temple than what the Talmud or Mishnah can help us understand.

Lastly, I did a word search on barley, wheat, corn, etc. and found the loaves to consecrate the priests were to be "wheaten" and too we are compared to "wheat among the tares". So, I believe there is an importance to the date of Av 1 that we have yet to understand completely.

Cindy

[BrotherArnold]

The Septuagint says, in

Ezra 7:14, "One has been sent from the king and the seven counselors, to visit Judea and Jerusalem, according to the law of YHWH that is in thine hand.

This could be understood as one of the three major feast/chag days that the children of Israel were to visit Jerusalem three times a year ACCORDING TO THE LAW of YHWH.

New Century Version of Ezra 7:14 seems to go alone with the Septuagint.

"For thou art sent from before the king, and his seven counsellors, to visit Judea and Jerusalem according to the law of thy God, which is in thy hand.

Ezra 7:9 teaches Ezra came to Jerusalem on the first day of the fifth month. I find it interesting that this could be the day of Pentecost if they understood Leviticus 23:16 as to number 50 days AFTER the seventh Sabbath complete.

If Ezra was visiting Jerusalem on the new moon day of the fifth month ACCORDING TO THE LAW, this could only be Pentecost. If Ezra, who was a ready scribe in the Law, was going to Jerusalem to see if they were keeping the Law, as some of the following translations suggest, then a feast day such as Pentecost would be a perfect time to pop in on them and see if they were keeping it or not.

The Good News Translation of 7:14

I and my seven advisers are sending you to see how things are going in Judah and Jerusalem. Find out whether the people there are obeying the Law of your God. You have a copy of that law with you.

New International Reader's Version

7:14

You are sent by the king and his seven advisers to inquire about Judah and Jerusalem with regard to the Law of your God, which is in your hand.

Today's New International Version

7:14

I, the king, and my seven advisers are sending you to evaluate the situation in Judah and Jerusalem on the basis of your God's Teachings, which you hold in your hands.

GOD's WORD

7:14

Ezra, you are sent by the king and the seven people who advise him to ask how Judah and Jerusalem are obeying the Law of your God, which you are carrying with you.

The Douay-Rheims Bible

7:14

I, together with my seven counselors, send you to investigate the conditions in Jerusalem and Judah in order to see how well the Law of your God, which has been entrusted to you, is being obeyed.

Again, it is interesting that Ezra pop in on them on the new moon day of the FIFTH month. I realize this in itself is not as conclusive as I would like for it to be but when taking all the other evidence into consideration, it is worth mentioning. It is also interesting that the ancient Israelite people observed Pentecost at the end of the fourth month or first day of the fifth month, same day that Ezra visited Jerusalem according to the Law and it was a new moon day of the fifth month that he was checking to see if Israel was keeping the Law.

The following web sites searched the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle and other historical evidence and found that the ancient Celtic people observed Pentecost later than the traditional Pentecost of the Jews today. The ancient Celtic Israelite people use the great lights of Genesis 1:14 for these feast days. They had a feast in the FIRST month and one in the FORTH month and another in the SEVENTH month, and there are notable happenings in the heavens at these three times of the year, not to mention the spring, summer, and fall harvestsat this time. The sun changes directions at the appointed times and you have the vernal equinox around the first month at the spring harvest of barley and you have the summer solstice around June 21st at the summer wheat harvest, and you have the autumn equinox around September 21st at the fall harvest of the fruit trees.

Notice as you read this and the following, that there is no Historical record of these people/ancient Israelites acknowledging a third month feast or a third month wheat harvest. The same is true in Scripture, there is NOT a feast OF ANY KIND in the third month found in Scripture. The Scripture says the feast of weeks and the feast of ingathering is to be at the YEARS END/solstice/turning. All of the feasts happens right after a major event that happens in the heavens and is visible, or how else could you use these lights for appointments, if they did not make any noticeable change?

You might ask what is the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle?

The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle is a collection of annals in Old English narrating the history of the Anglo-Saxons. The annals were created late in the 9th century, probably in Wessex, during the reign of Alfred the Great. Multiple manuscript copies were made and distributed to monasteries across England and were independently updated. In one case, the chronicle was still being actively updated in 1154.

Nine manuscripts survive in whole or in part, though not all are of equal historical value, and none of them is the original version. The oldest seems to have been started towards the end of Alfred's reign, while the most recent was written at Peterborough Abbey after a fire at the monastery there in 1116. Almost all of the material in the chronicle is in the form of annals, by year; the earliest are dated at 60 BC, and historical material follows up to the year in which the chronicle was written, at which point contemporary records begin. These manuscripts collectively are known as the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_Chronicle

This next article I found tells how the ancient Celtic people were keeping an ancient custom or tradition of the first fruits of wheat harvest, better known as Pentecost or first fruits or Feast of Weeks, and it was in the end of the fourth month, or 1st day of the 5th. You can bet your bottom dollar that if this same Celtic ritual occurred near the beginning of the third month, which everyone believes was Pentecost, instead of the end of the fourth month, they would have sworn it was Pentecost. The great lights are used for the festivals and the sun does not do anything special in the third month for the traditional Pentecost, but it does in the fourth around June 21st, and it does something special in each of the scriptural feast. After March 21st Passover, after June 21st Pentecost, after September 21st Tabernacles, and all these are in the years turning/end and happen around the harvest times. The ancient Celtic's the great lights for feast/appointments. Here's the article.

LUGHNASADH

Kathleen Dupree

"The grain is ripe for harvest. Apple trees and gardens bear forth the fruits of summer. This is the time of Lughnasadh, the ancient Celtic festival held in celebration of the first fruits of the harvest.

The modern Irish spelling, Lúnasa, is the name of the month of August in Irish Gaelic. Lughnasadh, an older spelling, is often used to designate the name of the seasonal festival that surrounds the first day of the month of August. In Scots Gaelic the day is known as Lunasda or Lunasdal. This is the time that marks a REST FROM LABOR, a time to take stock of what the SUMMER sun has yielded. It is a time to CELEBRATE and enjoy the outcome of our daily toil.

At this GATHERING were held games and contests of skill as well as a GREAT FEAST made up of the FIRST FRUITS of the SUMMER HARVEST.

See http://www.leyline.org/cra/articles/lughnasadh.html for more.

Notice it says that this was an ancient Celtic festival held in celebration of the first fruits of the harvest. Notice it places ancient Israel's Pentecost 50 days more than the traditional Pentecost or 50 days AFTER the traditional FEAST of Pentecost or 50 days AFTER the seventh Sabbath complete, as Leviticus 23:16 teaches.

Notice this ancient feast was a Rest from Labor, just as the Scripture teaches Pentecost is and Notice it was during the summer instead of spring and it says they had a GATHERING/convocation, same as the Scripture teaches for Pentecost and it was a GREAT FEAST made up of the FIRST FRUITS of the SUMMER HARVEST. All these are signs of a scriptural Pentecost. Continuing on in another article we read,

"In the Celtic nations of Europe traditions surrounding Lughnasadh still continue from pre-Christian times. Most often, celebration of the holiday occurs on the first Sunday of August or the Sunday just before the first day of August. In modern Ireland the tradition still continues that on the last Sunday of July families ascend into the hills of the countryside to pick bilberries. The bilberries are symbolic of the bounty of Mother Earth at this time of year and of the fruits harvested in that ancient time when Tailltiu made a place for the grain that would feed the generations to come after her. With the coming of Christianity to the Celtic lands, the old festival of Lughnasadh took on Christian symbolism. Loaves of bread were baked from the first of the harvested grain and placed on the church altar on the first Sunday of August. The Christianized name for the feast of Lughnasadh is Lammas which means "loaf mass". And, of course, there are the fairs which are still held all across Europe and America. Lughnasadh (Old Irish pronounced IPA: [luË?nÉ™sÉ™]) is a Gaelic holiday celebrated on the first of August, or at the time of the ripening of the local berry crop, or on the full moon nearest the midpoint between the summer solstice and autumnal equinox.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lughnasadh

NOTICE it says "Midpoint between the summer solstice and autumnal equinox. June 21st is the summer solstice and September 21st is the autumnal equinox and midpoint would be around July 21st which is in perfect harmony with counting 50 days AFTER the seventh Sabbath complete as we believe Leviticus 23:16 teaches. It is also In harmony with the scripture that teaches that Pentecost must be at the years end/turning, which happens on June 21st in the traditional Pentecost takes place before June 21st or BEFORE the years END . See SCRIPTURE this is truly using the great lights of Genesis 1:14 for appointments, and Pentecost is an appointment. Notice the next article speaks of the FOUR MAIN festivals of the ancient Celtic celebrations and the one that matches Pentecost is not in the beginning of the third month, but is that the end of the fourth month or beginning of the fifth witches In harmony with 50 days AFTER the seventh Sabbath complete as Leviticus 23:16 teaches. "Ancient celebration

Lughnasadh was one of the FOUR MAIN festivals of the medieval Irish calendar: Imbolc at the beginning of February, Beltane on the first of May, "Lughnasadh" in August and Samhain in October. The early Celtic calendar was based on the lunar, solar, and vegetative cycles, so the actual calendar date was variable. Lughnasadh marked the beginning of the harvest season, the ripening of first fruits, and was traditionally a time of community gatherings, market festivals, horse races and reunions with distant family and friends.

NOTICE the day was variable, also the first Festival mentioned here is in February which corresponds, according to my Smith's Bible dictionary, with the 12th Jewish month, February and March, and the only festival he lists in the 12th month is the feast of Esther on the 13th and Purim on the 14th and 15th of the 12th month but at any rate, this cannot be Pentecost that they were celebrating.

NOTICE that the next MAJOR FEAST that was mentioned, was celebrated on the first of May which corresponds with "PASSOVEr" which can fall on the first of May. The next major feast mentioned is "Lughnasadh" in August which corresponds with PENTECOST if you number 50 DAYS AFTER the seventh Sabbath complete according to Leviticus 23:16. At any rate there is no way possible that this feast of the first fruit of wheat harvest can correspond with 50 days after the wave sheath.

NOTICE that the next MAJOR FEAST is in OCTOBER which corresponds with TABERNACLES . The point I would like to make here is that PENTECOST is a major feast same as Tabernacles, Passover, and Purim, and we know that the ancient Israelites celebrated Pentecost. One key thing to remember is that there are two types of wheat grown today but the scripture only mentions one which was the Pentecost wheat that is planted in the spring/first month and harvested in the summertime/the end of the fourth month and beginning of the fifth, not harvested in the springtime.

These ancient Israelite people were keeping the festivals of YHWH according to the great lights of Genesis 1:14 and according to the harvest seasons, spring harvest, summer harvest, and fall harvest, and the scripture and Historical facts show that there was never a celebration in the third month nor was they a harvest in the third month. Lughnasadh (pronounced lune-ah-sah) was a summer festival of the ancient Celts, celebrated around August 1. My understanding is that it is known that it was celebrated at either the full moon or the new moon closest to the midpoint between the summer solstice and the autumnal equinox. Since the midpoint is on August 6th, that means that this year, Lughnasadh falls on either July 25 (the new moon).

Colors: Gray, green, gold, yellow

Symbols: All grains, breads, threshing tools,

Date: Occurs 1/4 of a year after Beltaine. True astrological point is 15 degrees Leo, but tradition has set August 1st as the day it is typically celebrated. Since the Ancients Celts passed their days from sundown to sundown, the celebration would usually begin the night before on July 31st.

http://thunder.prohosting.com/~cbarstow/lammas.html

"This Sabbath is also known as the celebration of bread. As bread was one of the main staples of our ancestors, the ripening of the grain was the cause for GREAT CELEBRATION. The reaping, threshing and preparation of these breads spawned great ritual and ceremony to ensure bounty for the following year.

This time of the year finds us with fields to harvest, the first of a bountiful crop that will hold us through the winter months. Even though the hottest days of summer are upon us, we have but to observe to see that fall is just around the corner. Shadows are growing longer as the days slowly become shorter. Squirrels are busily gathering food for the coming winter. It is a time to begin canning produce from the garden, a time to save and preserve.

NOTICE this has to be referring to spring wheat harvest instead of winter wheat harvest. Winter wheat is planted in September or October and harvested in the spring time about two weeks after barley harvest but the summer or spring wheat is planted in the springtime and is harvested in the summer time around the end of July and first of August and this is the only conclusive wheat harvest mentioned in Scripture. More reading from the Internet, "In English-speaking countries, August 1 is Lammas Day or loaf-mass day, the festival of the first "Wheat" harvest" of the year. On this day it was customary to bring to church a loaf made from the new crop. In many parts of England, tenants were bound to present freshly harvested "Wheat" to their landlords on or before the first day of August. In the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, where it is referred to regularly, it is called "the feast of first fruits". The blessing of new fruits was performed annually in both the Eastern and Western Churches on the first, or the sixth, of August. The Sacramentary of Pope Gregory I (d. 604) specifies the sixth.

In medieval times the feast was known as the "gule of August", but the meaning of "gule" is unknown. Ronald Hutton suggests that it may be an Anglicisation of gwyl aust, the Welsh name for August 1 meaning "feast of August", but this is not certain. If so, this points to a pre-Christian origin for Lammas among the Anglo-Saxons and a link to the Gaelic festival of Lughnasadh

Even the oak trees put forth a new crop of leaves, called Lammas shoots.

The oak can takes some 60 years to mature and produce its first full crop of fruit. Depending on seasonal conditions, tufts of pale green leaves appear on short stalks (English or Common oak) during April or May, which by June turn dark green and thick with a strong central vein and deeply lobed edges. Should the young leaves be damaged by frost or destroyed by insects, the oak has a canny ability to re-leaf itself. In August at the height of the summer when most other trees are wilting from the heat, the oak produces a new leaf called "Lammas shootd"? thus adding new colour and freshness to the tree. These new leafy shoots are golden-pink when young, turning from pale to dark green as they harden. In autumn the oak tree is at its most majestic as its leaves change colour again turning from dark green to various shades of yellow, orange, russet and a pale golden brown. The leaves sometime stay on the tree until the following spring or until the new buds forming for the next year push them off.

http://www.controverscial.com/Oak.htm

Its summer, and the oak tree produces a second crop of leaves the lammas growth to replace its now tatty spring canopy.

Late summer growth - Telegraph

This is Lammas growth, when trees put on a second flush of bright leaves in July and August, around Lammas day, August 1, which is a Celtic harvest festival ...

www.telegraph.co.uk/property/main.jhtml ... unny16.xml - 44k - Cached - Similar pages

This is Lammas growth, when trees put on a second flush of bright leaves in July and August, around Lammas day, August 1, which is a Celtic harvest festival. Oak, ash, beech, sycamore and hawthorn produce a secondary growth while poplar, birch and willow do not. It is worth watering to encourage this second growth and build up healthy reserves for next year. I find this most useful when trying to speed up growth of newly-planted yew and hawthorn hedges, which can respond with amazing vigour.

Trees for Life - Species Profile: Oak

... as the harsher climate and poorer soils limit their growth. ... lammas growth, because it occurs around the time of Lammas, the Celtic festival of first ... www.treesforlife.org.uk/forest/species/oak.html - 31k - Cached - Similar pages

Because of the large numbers of insects and other invertebrates which feed upon oaks, many of the leaves can be tattered and have numerous holes in them by late July. Oaks then produce a new flush of leaves, especially on young trees, and this phenomenon is called lammas growth, because it occurs around the time of Lammas, the Celtic festival of first fruits, on 1st August.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lammas

Again, this is not my main argument for a later Pentecost but it may not hurt to mention how Ezra was checking on Israel's law keeping on the new moon day of the fifth month and how ancient Israel observed the same day according to the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle's.