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Pentecost "NOT" In 3rd Month

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Pentecost "NOT" In 3rd Month

Postby BrotherArnold » 21 Jan 2008, 12:15

Here are some of my notes on what the Scripture teaches is the true count to Pentecost which is 50 days "after the 7th Sabbath complete, not 50 days after the wave sheaf or 1st Sabbath.


Lev-23:16 "Even unto the morrow "after" the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto YHWh"


I have not found ANY evidence from scripture to support the traditional 3rd month Pentecost I have not even found a feast of anykind in the 3rd month or even a harvest of anykind, but below is an abundance of evidence from scripture and nature that conclusively proves a later Pentecost.



INTRODUCTION


If someone wanted to argue Pentecost in the third month, would it be asking too much for them to produce ONE scripture supporting a wheat harvest in the 3rd month "Springtime"??? After all that is what Pentecost is, first fruits of the wheat harvest.


Would it be asking too much to show where there was even a Feast in the 3rd month???



Leviticus 23:16 can be understood two ways, the traditional way is to count 50 days from the wave sheaf of the barley harvest, and another way it can be understood is to count 50 days from the morrow "after the seventh Sabbath. To prove which understanding is correct, we must turn to nature and other Scripture other than the one in question. Also see positive proof under Pentecost count at http://lunarsabbath.us/_wsn/page6.html



We know that Pentecost has to do with the wheat harvest and I challenge someone to show where there is a wheat harvest, mentioned in the Scripture, for a 3rd month Pentecost.


If someone can find a Winter wheat harvest in scriptures or a feast/Chag in the THIRD month, then there is at least a 50-50 chance that the 50 days after the wave sheaf could possibly be right, OTHERWISE IT IS NOT EVEN AN OPTION.


The reason I say 50-50 chance is because we definitely have a conclusive pinpointed "Summer" wheat harvest in the 4th month which is found over and over throughout the Scriptures and we also have a conclusive feast/Chag mentioned in the fourth month, and therefore it could be understood either way if someone can find a Winter wheat harvest or a feast/Chag in the third month, then they could argue it was 50 days after the barley sheaf/Winter wheat harvest, and we could argue that it is 50 days after the seventh Sabbath complete, which would be a summer wheat harvest.


In other words if someone can produce scripture for harvesting wheat in the spring, instead of summer, then it could go either way but until someone finds a conclusive Winter wheat harvest or a feast/Chag in the third month, IT IS NOT EVEN AN OPTION. We must prove what the Scripture in Leviticus 23:16 is speaking of.


Now "If" they were no summer wheat harvest found in Scripture and you had plenty of Winter wheat harvests found in Scripture, and "If" there was a third month feast/Chag then the obvious understanding would be to count 50 days after the barley wave sheaf for the winter wheat harvest and a third month Pentecost. Simple.


On the other hand if there is no Winter wheat harvest mentioned in Scripture, (and there's not) and there's no third month feast/Chag mentioned in Scripture, then the obvious conclusion is to begin the 50 day count from the morrow after the seventh Sabbath complete and then bring the new meat offering from the summer wheat, the only wheat spoken of in scriptures. Simple


Below you will read many Scripture which will harmonize with counting 50 days "after the seventh Sabbath, not after the wave sheaf, such as when Aaron made proclamation of a Pilgrim feast/CHAG which was 50 days after the seventh Lunar Sabbath complete and the only Pilgrim Feast this could have been was Pentecost because it was in the fourth month when Aaron proclaimed this. There is no CHAG found in the 3rd month for the traditional Pentecost.


Until someone can produce a Scripture showing that there is another wheat harvest to choose from, found in Scripture of course, I see no room to debate it any other way. I know that Winter wheat is now harvested in the springtime after spring barley harvest, but did ancient Israel plant Winter wheat or only summer wheat??


All Scriptures that I have found is referring to "Summer" wheat which is sowed in the 1st month and reaped in the 4th. It would be nice to have an "example of Winter wheat in Scripture if I was going to of count 50 days after the barley wave sheaf and then bring a first fruit from the winter wheat, but since there isn't any the conclusion is obvious.


Winter wheat takes 7 months to harvest and our Saviour say's are there not 4 months then cometh the harvest, refering to summer wheat. This also explains why the wheat was not distroyed in the 1st month in Egypt, because it had not came up yet.


We can prove many wheat harvests in the "summer", throughout the Scriptures, but is there one shred of evidence for a wheat harvest in the "spring"? The answer is no, so there is no Scriptural wheat harvest in the spring, so it must be understood that Pentecost is counted from the morrow "after" the seventh Sabbath/intermission, instead of from the wave sheaf it's self.


All the males were commanded to appear before YHWH three times in the year, these three feasts centered around the three major harvests. The first one is Unleavened Bread/barley harvest, which takes place in the "springtime", or Spring feast, then the second one takes place in the "summer", at the summer wheat harvest called Pentecost or summer harvest, the first fruits of the summer wheat harvest is offered, not Winter wheat which is harvested in the "spring", two weeks after the barley, and is still in the spring season.


Every where in Scripture and history from Josephus and Philo who lived at the time of these harvest, wheat was always a summer harvest. Study these EXAMPLES closely.

#1. In the book of Josephus it tells how that it was "Summer time when the fruit of the land being almost ripe enough for reaping that Samson set fire to the fruit of the land i.e. "wheat" and grapes etc. and in the book of Judges it plainly tells that it was in the time of wheat harvest when Samson done this. Read the following from Josephus and the book of Judges.


CHAPTER 8 CONCERNING THE FORTITUDE OF SAMSON, AND WHAT MISCHIEFS HE BROUGHT UPON THE PHILISTINES

.
7. (295) At this injurious treatment Samson was so provoked that he resolved to punish all the Philistines, as well as her; so it being then "Summer" time, and the fruits of the land being almost ripe enough for reaping, he caught three hundred foxes, and joining lighted torches to their tails, he sent them into the fields of the Philistines, by which means the fruits of the fields perished.


In the book of Judges Chapter 15:5 it says:

"1But it came to pass within a while after, in the "Time" of "Wheat" harvest that Samson visited his wife with a kid; and he said, I will go in to my wife into the chamber. But her father would not suffer him to go in. 2And her father said, I verily thought that thou hadst utterly hated her; therefore I gave her to thy companion: is not her younger sister fairer than she? take her, I pray thee, instead of her. 3And Samson said concerning them, Now shall I be more blameless than the Philistines, though I do them a displeasure. 4And Samson went and caught three hundred foxes, and took firebrands, and turned tail to tail, and put a firebrand in the midst between two tails. 5And when he had set the brands on fire, he let them go into the standing "Corn" of the Philistines, and burnt up both the shocks, and also the standing "Corn", with the "vineyards and "Olives"?.

In other words the time of wheat harvest is in the summer, NOT spring. This proves that this wheat harvest is speaking of "summer" wheat harvest and not spring harvest of winter wheat. Josephus knew enough about how many foxes etc. because he knew the Scriptures, wonder why he didn't know that the wheat harvest was in the spring instead of summer? Or maybe he knew that wheat harvest in his time was in the Summer and not Spring. You Judge and remember the people knew about farming in those days, and to say whether he was a Pharisee or Sadducee makes no difference concerning the harvest and nature.


The following quote from Josephus also proves the wheat was Summer wheat and not Winter wheat


1. (323) In the meantime Herod's affairs in Judea were in an ill state. He had left his brother Joseph with full power, but had charged him to make no attempts against Antigonus till his return;for that Macheras would not be such an assistant as he could depend on, as it appeared by what he had done already; but as soon as Joseph heard that his brother was at a very great distance, he neglected the charge he had received, and marched towards Jericho with five cohorts, which Macheras sent with him. This movement was intended for seizing on the corn, as it was now in the midst of "Summer;

Notice the last verse of this quote. This is found in Josephus under:


THE DEATH OF JOSEPH [HEROD's BROTHER], WHICH HAD BEEN SIGNIFIED TO HEROD IN DREAMS. HOW HEROD WAS PRESERVED TWICE, AFTER A WONDERFUL MANNER. HE CUTS OFF THE HEAD OF PAPPUS WHO WAS THE MURDERER OF HIS BROTHER, AND SENDS THAT HEAD TO [HIS OTHER BROTHER] PHERORAS, AND IN NO LONG TIME HE BESIEGES JERUSALEM, AND MARRIES MARIAMNE


This next quote which lists the 4 seasons, proves they were known back then: Philo, On The Creation

"And in addition to the four elements the seasons of the year are also four, which are the "Caused"? of the "Generation" of animals and "Plantd"?, the year being divided into the quadruple division of winter, and "Spring", and "Summer", and "Autumn".
XVII. (53) The aforesaid number therefore being accounted worthy"


Notice he says these four seasons Winter, and Spring, and Summer, and Autumn, are cause of the generation of animals and "Plantd"?

In other words you have three harvest feasts each year, barley in the spring, wheat in the summer, and the annual fruits of the trees etc. in the autumn.

I have heard the argument that all harvest was Summer time, but that is not acceptable because Josephus says, "And in addition to the four elements the seasons of the year are also four, which are the "Caused"? of the "Generation" of animals and "Plantd"?, the year being divided into the quadruple division of winter, and "Spring", and "Summer", and "Autumn".


Bottom line is someone should have a Scripture or some kind of proof that there is a spring wheat harvest instead of a summer wheat harvest to support their 50 day count after the wave sheaf instead of 50 days after the seventh Sabbath complete for Pentecost.

I can give many Scriptures and history from people that lived at this time that there is a summer wheat harvest which would have to be 50 days after the seventh Sabbath instead of 50 days after the first Sabbath.

50 days after the first Sabbath can only produce a spring wheat harvest and 50 days after the seventh Sabbath can only produce a summer wheat harvest. Which one does the Scripture teach? We know what tradition of men teaches.



It says in the book of Nehemiah Chapter 13:15:

In those days saw I in Judah some treading "wine presses on the sabbath, and bringing in "sheaves, and lading asses; as also wine, grapes, and figs, and all manner of burdens, which they brought into Jerusalem on the sabbath day: and I testified against them in the day wherein they sold victuals.

Nehemiah saw men treading grapes in these wine presses and the grapes are not ripe until summer and the sheaves they were bringing in had to be summer sheaves. The Winter wheat is gone by this time and so was springtime.


Our Saviour says that after four months comes the harvest. This has to be speaking of the summer wheat harvest which matures in four months. It is sown in the first month Abib/spring and is reaped in the fourth month/summer which is seven Sabbaths plus 50 days and then you can bring a first fruit from it/summer fruit. This is why the hail did not destroy the wheat in Egypt because it had not come up yet because it was planted in the first month.



In John 4: 35 it says:


"Say not ye ., there are yet four months then cometh the harvest"


Winter wheat is at least 6 or 7 months to harvest and not four months to harvest as our Saviour said it was, and as I have said, winter wheat can NOT be pinpointed in scripture and therefore is not even an option for Pentecost wheat.


John-12:24 says,


24….."Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of "Wheat" fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. 25He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. ….

27Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. ..32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33This he said, signifying what death he should die".


Once again a corn of wheat can NOT bring forth a harvest in 50 days and I can not picture our Saviour not using a true analogy. He was buried in the 1st month, same as summer wheat is and a harvest of soles was reaped 50 days AFTER a week of weeks has passed over or 50 days AFTER 7 Sabbaths had passed over. It was the same time that the Law was given to Moses.


When Aaron used the word CHAG, which is only used for Pilgrim feast, it was in the Summer time and it was 50 days after the seventh Sabbath. It was also the same day that the Law was given on Mount Sinai. Ex-32:5 and Ex-31:18


Philo says that the harvest comes after the grapes are ripe and the grapes are not ripe until summer. He also tells of some men that was keeping a prelude or for feast of the greatest feast i.e. Pentecost, 50 days after the wave sheaf. That means that the morrow after the 7th Sabbath is NOT Pentecost, but the start of the 50 day count to Pentecost.


He also says that wheat was the last of all" the grains that are sowed in the field to ripen and come to harvest. This was Pentecost wheat that he was referring to, and it has to be summer wheat to ripen last, after winter wheat. Philo SPECIAL LAWS, 11 (186)


The wheat harvest and Tabernacles are to be observed at the years end/turning (Ex34:22) and that does not happened until June 21. ( after the traditional Pentecost} In other words you have a turning March 21 and then keep Passover, in the Spring and you have another turning June 21st and you keep Pentecost, in the Summer and then you have another turning September 21 in the days of Tabernacles, in the Fall. If you try to keep the traditional Pentecost in the third month/June 6, it is not at the years end or turning, which happens on June 21. and is not in harmony with Torah Law.

When they came into the land they were to reap the harvest thereof/barley, wave sheaf, count seven sabbaths/intermissions complete, number 50 days, then bring a new meat offering from "Their" labors that "They" sowed in the field i.e. wheat.

In other words if they sowed the summer wheat in the first month when they came into the land they could reap a harvest for a first fruit 50 days after the seventh Sabbath from their labors which they sowed in the field, but NOT in 50 days from the time they sowed, for nature will not allow the wheat to mature in 50 days. Ex-23:16

There is so much proof supporting the count should began 50 days after the seventh Sabbath instead of 50 days after the first Sabbath.

Bottom line is, can anyone locate a "spring" wheat harvest for a 3rd month Pentecost? If not, maybe it is not there and is only a tradition of men.



Here are a few Scriptures to support the summer fruit/wheat harvest:



Proverbs 10:5



"5He that gathereth in SUMMER is a wise son: but he that sleepeth in "HARVEST" is a son that causeth shame.



Notice summer and harvest is synonymous.



Proverbs 26:1



"1As snow in "Summer", and as rain in "Harvest", so honour is not seemly for a fool.



Again summer and harvest is synonymous.



Isaiah 16:9



"9Therefore I will bewail with the weeping of Jazer the vine of Sibmah: I will water thee with my tears, O Heshbon, and Elealeh: for the shouting for thy "SUMMER" fruits and for thy HARVEST is fallen (some of harvest not spring harvest). 10And gladness is taken away, and joy out of the plentiful field; and in the VINEYARDS there shall be no singing, neither shall there be shouting: the treaders shall tread out no WINE in their presses; I have made their vintage shouting to cease.



Notice here the summer fruits of the harvest AND the wine are connected.



Isaiah 17: 5-6

"5And it shall be as when the HARVESTMAN gathereth the corn, and reapeth the ears with his arm; and it shall be as he that gathereth ears in the VALLEY of Rephaim.

6Yet "Gleaning Grapes"? shall be left in IT (Valley), as the shaking of an olive tree, two or three berries in the top of the uppermost bough, four or five in the outmost fruitful branches thereof, saith YHWH the Mighty One of Israel".



Notice here, the harvest men gather the wheat in the Valley and What's left of the grapes they left in the Valley which proves the grapes were ripe before the harvest as Philo says; they just didn't go back and GLEAN them.



Isaiah 18:4-6



4For so the MASTER said unto me, I will take my "Rest", and I will consider in my dwelling place like a clear heat upon herbs, and like a cloud of dew in the "Heat of harvest. 5For "Afore" the harvest, when the bud is perfect and the sour grape is"? ripening" in the flower,



The Tanach reads, " for the said YHWH to me: I will be at ease and I will look after my place of Foundation; like crisp warmth after the rain, like a mist in the "Heat" of the harvest. For "Before" "the" harvest, when the flower is finished and the bud turns to "Grapes approaching ripeness,"



Notice here that this is speaking of a summer wheat harvest and says "Before" the harvest the grapes are approaching ripeness". The Grapes Are Not Approaching Ripeness in the springtime.

The phrase "THE harvest" not a harvest of wheat seems to imply that there was only one major wheat harvest and that was in the summer which rules out any possibility of counting only one day after the seventh Sabbath complete.



"6They shall be left together unto the fowls of the mountains, and to the beasts of the earth: and the fowls shall" "Summer" upon them, and all the beasts of the earth shall winter upon them. 7In that time shall "The present" be brought unto YHWH of hosts of a people scattered and peeled, and from a people terrible from their beginning hitherto; a nation meted out and trodden under foot, whose land the rivers have spoiled, to the place of the name YHWH of hosts, the mount Zion".



I believe "The present" that is spoken of here is the first fruit of the summer wheat harvest because it shows that the present/first fruit is brought during the summer. The above and nature demands an understanding of Leviticus 23:16 to mean 50 days after the seventh Sabbath complete.



Jeremiah 8: 20

"20The harvest is past, the "Summer" is ended, and we are not saved.



This verse I shows that the harvest was in the summer NOT "Spring" because it does not say the harvest is past and spring is ended. Proven once again it is a summer harvest not Spring harvest.



Jeremiah 40: 10 -12

"10As for me, behold, I will dwell at Mizpah to serve the Chaldeans, which will come unto us: but ye, gather ye "WINE", and SUMMER FRUIT, and oil, and put them in your vessels, and dwell in your cities that ye have taken. 11Likewise when all the Jews that were in Moab, and among the Ammonites, and in Edom, and that were in all the countries, heard that the king of Babylon had left a remnant of Judah, and that he had set over them Gedaliah the son of Ahikam the son of Shaphan; 12Even all the Jews returned out of all places whither they were driven, and came to the land of Judah, to Gedaliah, unto Mizpah, and gathered WINE AND SUMMER FRUITS VERY MUCH.

Notice the wine/grapes and the summer fruit/wheat is in the summer time and not the springtime. By the way in Jeremiah 39:2 it explains that this was in the fourth month when the people harvested these crops.


For more information you may call or write to:
Bro. Arnold Bowen
3466 Hightower Tr.
Conyers, Georgia 30012 USA
Or call (770) 483-8542
Email to: YHWHpeople@aol.com
Last edited by BrotherArnold on 21 Jan 2008, 12:30, edited 1 time in total.
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...

Brother Arnold
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Postby BrotherArnold » 21 Jan 2008, 12:24

Pentecost proves Lunar Sabbaths Click Here http://ministersnewcovenant.org/Lunar%2 ... 0Proof.pdf and read Chapter 12.



THE COUNT TO PENTECOST ""CONCLUSIVELY PROVES"? LUNAR SABBATHS

The only way the Hebrew speaking Jews and the Greek speaking Jews could have arrived at Pentecost on the same day is by Lunar Sabbaths. This is an absolute because the word Sabbath in Leviticus 23:11 is the Hebrew word for the weekly Sabbath and thousands of people have this knowledge including the Hebrew speaking Jews.

On the other hand, thousands of people including the Greek speaking Jews have the knowledge that the morrow after the Sabbath is referring to the 16th (Day after the 15th/weekly Sabbath) of the first month every year because in the Greek Septuagint it says, "On the morrow of the first day the Priest shall of wave it", it is a FACT that the first day in the Septuagint is referring to the 15th or first day of unleavened bread, and the morrow after the 15th, (or 1st day), is the 16th.

We know from the book of Acts that they where Greek speaking Jews as well as Hebrew speaking Jews from every nation kindred and tongue, including Greek speaking Jews from Alexander Egypt, who read from the Septuagint, gathered for the day of Pentecost. Some read from the Septuagint and some read from the Hebrew text and both had to have known that the 15th was the weekly Sabbath because they were at Pentecost on the same day and started there count from the same day.

The point is this, when these Greek speaking Jews read the Septuagint and started their count for Pentecost on the morrow after the 15th every year and they arrived on the same day as the Hebrew speaking Jews that began the count on the morrow after the weekly Sabbath, this can only mean one thing and that is that BOTH the Hebrew speaking Jews and the Greek speaking Jews understood the 15th to be the weekly Shabbat and they started their count for Pentecost on the same day as the Greek speaking Jews that read from the Septuagint, i.e. from the morrow of the 1st day of unleavened bread.

In other words, these thousands of people on both sides are right because the ones that believe the morrow after the 15th, which is the 16th, is right and the ones that believe the morrow after the weekly Sabbath, which is the 16th is right.

Later on their fathers had compromised the lunar week for the Roman week and the Pentecost debate began. What else could have brought on the Pentecost controversy, could one half of the Jews have woke up one morning and forgot how to count of Pentecost?


Both Josephus and Philo records that the count for Pentecost begins on the 16th which is the morrow after the Sabbath and the Septuagint was read and quoted from, same as the Hebrew text, and everyone was at Pentecost on the same day and there was no controversy among them concerning Pentecost until they adopted the false Roman week that is followed today.


The Universally Jewish Encyclopedia and another 100-year-old Jewish Encyclopedia by Funk & Wag, both records that ancient Israel originally kept lunar weeks and lunar Sabbaths.


Philo the Jew, which lived at the same time our Saviour did, records that the weeks were by the moon and also Clement of Alexander. Most people know that the month were originally by the moon but failed to realize that the 4 phases of the moon were used for the weeks.

At the end of a Roman week you have a Roman sabbath and at the end of a Lunar week you have a Lunar Sabbath.

Click Here http://lunarsabbath.info/_wsn/page16.html and see that Philo and the Jews of our Saviour's day kept Pentecost 50 days AFTER the 7th Sabbath, which is in line with Lev-23, and "nOt" 50 days after the wave sheaf
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

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JMSchattke
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Postby JMSchattke » 21 Jan 2008, 14:04

How, then do you get a count of 50, and a celebration on the day after a sabbath, if you have new moon days?
Do you, then, claim that they are not counted in the count?
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 21 Jan 2008, 21:35

JMSchattke wrote:How, then do you get a count of 50, and a celebration on the day after a sabbath, if you have new moon days?
Do you, then, claim that they are not counted in the count?
Hi JMS,

Let me jump in and prepare you for several shocks. First, Arnold counts 7 Sabbaths (with their 6 workdays) from the 16th of Abib, not counting the 3 invening new moon days. Then (since he didn't get it right the 1st time :wink:), he starts all over and count 50 consecutive days from the "morrow after the 7th Sabbath", and ends up on the 28th or 29th of the 4th month. This is based partly on the rendering of a SINGLE Bible translation (Ferrar Fenton)

I've tried for 3 years to convince him that the Hebrew word "AD" (which has been discussed recently) means "UNTO", yet Arnold inisists that it means "FROM" in this one isolated verse. Maybe you can show him with some different approach.

Further, don't be fooled by his reference to a "summer" harvest, thereby attempting to discredit a 3rd month "spring" wheat harvest. But in Scripture there's no such thing as "spring". There are only 2 seasons - winter (seedtime - planting & growing) and summer (harvest). ALL the harvests take place in SUMMER. (Gen.8:22)

Maybe that will prepare you for what's coming, and help you to better comprehend what Arnold wrote in the above posts.

Also, counting Pentecost twice doesn't prove lunar Sabbaths. If i wanted to, i could count 7 Sabbaths + 50 more days using any kind of Sabbath i chose (e.g. the Muslim friday).
Chuck Baldwin
By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

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Postby Watchman555 » 21 Jan 2008, 23:34

I got a couple of verses I would like to add to this conversation.

Lev. 23:9-14:
9 And Yahuah spoke to Mosheh, saying, 10 "Speak to the children of Yisra'el, and you shall say to them, "When you come into the land which I give you, and shall reap its harvest, then you shall bring a sheaf of the first-fruits of your harvest to the priest. 11 "And he shall wave the sheaf before Yahuah, for your acceptance. On the morrow after the Sabbath the priest waves it. 12 "And on that day when you wave the sheaf, you shall prepare a male lamb a year old , a perfect one, as a burnt offering to Yahuah, 13 and its grain offering: two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil, an offering made by fire to Yahuah, a sweet fragrance, and its drink offering: one-fourth of a hin of wine. 14 "And you do not eat bread or roasted grain or fresh grain until the same day that you have brought an offering to your Elohim " a law forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.

Lev. 23:15-22:
15 "And from the morrow after the Sabbath, from the day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering, you shall count for yourselves: seven completed Sabbaths. 16 "Until the morrow after the seventh Sabbath you count fifty days, then you shall bring a new grain offering to Yahuah. 17 “Bring from your dwellings for a wave offering two loaves of bread, of two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour they are, baked with leaven, first-fruits to Yahuah 18 "And besides the bread, you shall bring seven lambs a year old, perfect ones, and one young bull and two rams. They are a burnt offering to Yahuah, with their grain offering and their drink offerings, an offering made by fire for a sweet fragrance to Yahuah. 19 "And you shall offer one male goat as a sin offering, and two male lambs a year old, as a peace offering. 20 "And the priest shall wave them, besides the bread of the first-fruits, as a wave offering before Yahuah, besides the two lambs. They are set-apart to Yahuah for the priest. 21 "And on this same day you shall proclaim a set-apart gathering for yourselves, you do no servile work in it " a law forever in all your dwellings throughout your generations. 22 "And when you reap the harvest of your land do not completely reap the corners of your field when you reap, and do not gather any gleaning from your harvest. Leave them for the poor and for the stranger. I am Yahuah your Elohim.'

Numbers 28:26-31:
26 "And on the day of the first-fruits, when you bring a new grain offering to Yahuah at your Festival of Weeks, you have a set-apart gathering, you do no servile work. 27 "And you shall bring near a burnt offering as a sweet fragrance to Yahuah: two young bulls, one ram, and seven lambs a year old, 28 with their grain offering of fine flour mixed with oil: three-tenths of an ephah for each bull, two-tenths for the one ram, 29 one-tenth for each of the seven lambs, 30 one male goat to make atonement for you, perfect ones they are for you. Prepare them with their drink offerings, besides the continual burnt offering with its grain offering.

Notice: No peace offering.
Notice: No loaf of bread offering.


Unless there is a translation error it seems kind of obvious that these three passages are speaking of different events.



~Greg

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Postby BrotherArnold » 22 Jan 2008, 02:49

JMSchattke wrote:How, then do you get a count of 50, and a celebration on the day after a sabbath, if you have new moon days?
Do you, then, claim that they are not counted in the count?


RESPONSE; You do not have a celebration on the day after a sabbath, You number 50 days. AFTER the Sabbath. Lev-23:16

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

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Postby BrotherArnold » 22 Jan 2008, 03:07

Nature proves Pentecost NOT IN THE 3RD MONTH. (and nature don't lie)

On the day of Pentecost when they were being accused of being drunk with "New" wine, which is not found in the third month for the traditional Pentecost, Peter said "this is that, which was spoken by the prophet Joel" and when you look at what the prophet Joel said, you will see where he said that "the floors would be full of wheat and the fats full of "wine", Once again there is no new wine in the third month to fulfill this prophecy, therefore it had to have been a 4th month Pentecost because it is agriculturally "IMPOSIBLE for the Fats to be full of wine in the 3rd month. This is an absolute, and this alone proves Pentecost in the fourth month, which is 50 days "After" the seventh Sabbath complete. Leviticus 23:16

Here is the Prophecy found in the 2nd ch. of Joel.

24And the floors shall be full of "wheat, and the "vats shall overflow with wine" and oil. 25And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpillar, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you. 26And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name YHWH your MIGHTY One, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed. 27And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am YHWH your Mighty One, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
28And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of YHWH come. 32And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name YHWH shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance.

Notice the prophecy was for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at a prosperous time when the floors would be full wheat and the wine presses full of wine and there's no wine in the fats in the third month, this also is an absolute. The wheat AND wine were part of this prophecy, after all it was Pentecost when this prophecy was fulfilled in the book of Acts, 2nd ch. Says,

1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one - place””

13Others mocking said, these men are full of "new wine.
14But Peter , standing up with the eleven , lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem , be this known unto you, and hearken to my words :
15For these are not "Drunken", as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17And it shall come to pass in the last days"?

My main point is there is posivetily no new wine in the third month, so Joel's prophecy had to be referring to the fourth month and furthermore, there are NO scriptures that will support new wine as being last year's wine or any other than the definition found in Strong's,

G1098

gleukos
glyoo\'-kos
Akin to G1099; sweet wine, that is, (properly) must (fresh juice), but used of the more saccharine (and therefore highly inebriating) fermented wine:—new wine.

The only new wine found in Scripture whether fermented are not, is wine that is still in the cluster or in the fats/wine presses or as our Savior refers to as not been put in the new bottles yet, and if it is put in old bottles it will burst them. This is much like the winter wheat which cannot be found in Scripture, neither can new wine be found as wine that came out of the old store or last year's wine because by then it is not new wine and does not fit the definition found in Scripture.

There is no New wine (sweet wine) in the third moon (grapes were not ripe yet) but were at the end of the fourth moon

The prophet Joel could have said, the floors shall be full of wheat and left out about the winepresses being full of wine on this day, but He did not because it is true.
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Postby BrotherArnold » 22 Jan 2008, 04:58

Brother Chuck writes,
"I've tried for 3 years to convince him that the Hebrew word "ad" (which has been discussed recently) means "unto", yet Arnold insists that it means "FROM" in this one isolated verse. Maybe you can show him with some different approach.

RESPONSE; Try using scripture. I have never said that UNTO means "FROM". I believe UNTO means "unto", yet you seem to think it means "THROUGH

I have always said that you COUNT the 7 Sabbaths UNTO the morrow after the 7th Sabbath (then stop) i.e. the COUNT of the Sabbaths goes up UNTO the BIGINNING of the MORROW "NOT" THROUGH it as you suggest, then you NUMBER to the 50th day Lev-23:16, and THEN bring the new meat offering to YHWH. If yuo do this, it will be the exact same day that the Law was given to Moses and the day that Aaron said was a CHAG/feast to YHWH. There is NO Chag mentioned in the 3rd month, but one in the 4th and it was exactly 50 days AFTER the 7th Sabbath complete and this is no axident. The grapes will be ripe for the New Wine as Joel and Acts require and much more see http://lunarsabbath.us/_wsn/page7.html

The well respected Hebrew Scholar Rashi spoke and knew Hebrew better than both of us put together and he agrees with my understanding.

He wrote,

"until the morrow of the seventh week you shall count. But the limit denoted by "Until, i.e., the morrow it's self, "is not included in the counting."

He goes on to say that the word "Until" is interpreted as "until a given point, but not including that point. …. the context of our verse indicates that until should be understood as "not including the 50th day, for if the 50 day were included, the term "seven weeks"? of verse 15 would be "Inexact"

This is a credible scholar speaking here and is in harmony with the 21st-century scholar Fenton where he says the 50 days is numbered AFTER the seventh Sabbath. Once you count the 7 Sabbaths the first count stops and then you number 50 days counting the morrow after the 7th Sabbath.

"Rashi goes on to say "The verse appears to command us to count 50 days. But this cannot be so, (probely because of tradition)

Rashi agrees that the verse appears to him that we are to count 50 days.
It appears to me that Rashi know something's wrong here but is not able to think out side of the box of his tradition, but there was nothing wrong with his Hebrew.

Brother Chuck, you are telling people things that the Hebrew says with ought any evidence from a credible Scholar. No one of them will say that UNTIL can not be as I have said. Have you no fear of telling someone wrong? I believe you mean well but you are wrong on the Sabbath and Pentecost. You or no one else can even find a feast of any kind in the 3rd month to support your understanding of Lev-23:16, yet you want to argue it because of tradition. I don't mean to sound harsh but don't know how else to put it. Rashi is better qualified to tell us what the word means and remember he kept the same Sabbath as you, so he had no dog in this fight, he just told it like it is.
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



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chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 22 Jan 2008, 06:51

Brother Arnold wrote:I have never said that UNTO means "FROM". I believe UNTO means "unto", yet you seem to think it means
"THROUGh"


Arnold, I have already shown in another thread that "ad" can mean "up to but not including", OR "through", OR simply "to" (meaning any time within). But the debate here is NOT about that; it is about the fact that you do indeed interpret it as "FROM", because you count another 50 days "FROM" the morrow after the 7th Sabbath, instead of counting the 50th day "to" the morrow after the 7th Sabbath, like the Scripture says to do.
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

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Postby JMSchattke » 22 Jan 2008, 07:23

Well, OK, whatever.

In a nutshell - you're a nut.

You don't know Hebrew. You don't have any idea what
וספרת×?5608 לכ×? ממחרת4283 הש×?בת7676 מיו×?3117 הבי×?×›×?935 ×?ת853 עמר6016 התנופה8573 ש×?בע7651 ש×?בתות7676 תמימת8549 תהיינה׃1961
עד5704 ממחרת4283 הש×?בת7676 הש×?ביעת7637 תספרו5608 חמש×?×™×?2572 יו×?3117 והקרבת×?7126 מנחה4503 חדש×?×”2319 ליהוה׃3068
means, even with the Strongs Exhaustive Concordance numbers there.

And yet you want to be different based on your understanding.

Here's the proper way to approach a radical teaching:
"receive the Word with all readiness, daily examining the Scriptures if these things are so."
"but keep back from foolish questionings and genealogies and arguments and quarrels of law, for they are unprofitable and vain. After the first and second warning, avoid a man of heresy, knowing that such a one has been perverted and sins, being self-condemned."

How's that for some exegesis?
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Postby BrotherArnold » 22 Jan 2008, 13:26

[quote="chuckbaldwin”][quote="Brother Arnold”]I have never said that UNTO means "FROM". I believe UNTO means "unto", yet you seem to think it means
"THROUGH"[/quote]
Arnold, I have already shown in another thread that "ad" can mean "up to but not including", OR "through", OR simply "to" (meaning any time within). But the debate here is NOT about that; it is about the fact that you do indeed interpret it as "FROM", because you count another 50 days "FROM" the morrow after the 7th Sabbath, instead of counting the 50th day "to" the morrow after the 7th Sabbath, like the Scripture says to do.[/quote]

RESPONSE; I do not count 50 days FROM the morrow after the seventh Sabbath, I number 50 days FROM the seventh Sabbath complete, NOT from the morrow after the seventh Sabbath.

You number 50 days from the wave sheaf, I number 50 days from the end of the seventh Sabbath and the beginning of the morrow. Shall ye number is always future tnese.
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



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chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 22 Jan 2008, 17:42

BrotherArnold wrote:I do not count 50 days FROM the morrow after the seventh Sabbath, I number 50 days FROM the seventh Sabbath complete, NOT from the morrow after the seventh Sabbath.

You number 50 days from the wave sheaf, I number 50 days from the end of the seventh Sabbath and the beginning of the morrow. Shall ye number is always future tnese.
Arnold, that last statement is self-evident (and therefore meaningless)- ALL commands are future; anyone knows you can't command somebody to do something IN THE PAST. Even without the "shall", if i say "Go to the store", i'm not saying to go yesterday. The "GOing" would be future from the time i spoke the command. "Shall" in this context is simply a way of indicating a command, like "You shall not steal".

Trying to complicate and confuse the issue by bringing up irrelevent words like "complete", doesn't change the fact that you're counting FROM instead of UNTO like the scripture says.
Show me the word "complete" in the following verse:
Le 23:16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto YHWH.
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

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Postby BrotherArnold » 22 Jan 2008, 20:22

chuckbaldwin wrote:
BrotherArnold wrote:I do not count 50 days FROM the morrow after the seventh Sabbath, I number 50 days FROM the seventh Sabbath complete, NOT from the morrow after the seventh Sabbath.

You number 50 days from the wave sheaf, I number 50 days from the end of the seventh Sabbath and the beginning of the morrow. Shall ye number is always future tnese.
Arnold, that last statement is self-evident (and therefore meaningless)- ALL commands are future; anyone knows you can't command somebody to do something IN THE PAST. Even without the "shall", if i say "Go to the store", i'm not saying to go yesterday. The "GOing" would be future from the time i spoke the command. "Shall" in this context is simply a way of indicating a command, like "You shall not steal".

Trying to complicate and confuse the issue by bringing up irrelevent words like "complete", doesn't change the fact that you're counting FROM instead of UNTO like the scripture says.
Show me the word "complete" in the following verse:
Le 23:16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto YHWH.



RESPONSE, I understand you can have a future command but you seem to think that when you count the MOROW in with the 7 Sabbaths, you will HAVE numbered 50 days/PAST TENSE. They were commanded to count 7 Sabbaths when they came into the land, THAT IS future, but they were further commanded to number 50 days AFTER THE 7TH SABBATH, which would still be FUTURE, i.e. the count for the 50 days begins AFTER THE 7TH SABBATH COMPLETE. I.E. this second command to number 50 days is still FUTURE of the 7th Sabbath, SAME as THE THIRD command, shall ye offer a new meat offering to YHWH is FUTURE OF THE numbering 50 days. I don't know how to make it plainer.
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



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chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 22 Jan 2008, 22:09

Arnold, when you count 7 Sabbaths, that's 49 days.
Then when you count the "morrow after the 7th Sabbath", that's the 50th day. Very simple - 49 + 1 + 50.

I realize that the poetic KJV English has you confused, like in the following 2 sentences:

"The boy hit a ball." (normal sequence)
"A ball the boy hit." (poetic)

Applying your misunderstanding, you would interpret the 2nd sentence to mean that the ball hit the boy, which is obviously not the meaning.

It's the same way with the PC instructions; the poetic rendering is:
"Unto the morrow after the 7th Sabbath you shall number 50 days."
The same thing spoken as we would normaly say it is:
"You shall number 50 days unto the morrow after the 7th Sabbath."
The main point is that the "unto" tells us that the 50 days ENDS with the day after the 7th Sabbath.
Chuck Baldwin

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Postby BrotherArnold » 22 Jan 2008, 22:27

chuckbaldwin wrote:Arnold, when you count 7 Sabbaths, that's 49 days.
Then when you count the "morrow after the 7th Sabbath", that's the 50th day. Very simple - 49 + 1 + 50.

I realize that the poetic KJV English has you confused, like in the following 2 sentences:

"The boy hit a ball." (normal sequence)
"A ball the boy hit." (poetic)

Applying your misunderstanding, you would interpret the 2nd sentence to mean that the ball hit the boy, which is obviously not the meaning.

It's the same way with the PC instructions; the poetic rendering is:
"Unto the morrow after the 7th Sabbath you shall number 50 days."
The same thing spoken as we would normaly say it is:
"You shall number 50 days unto the morrow after the 7th Sabbath."
The main point is that the "unto" tells us that the 50 days ENDS with the day after the 7th Sabbath.


RESPONSE; If that was so He could have said to number 50 days after the wave shea, instead of 50 days AFTER the 7th Sabbath. You can NOT pinpoint a feast in the 3rd month that would support a 50 day count from wave sheaf. Neither can you find a Chag mentioned in the 3rd month and we have both and much more because we count 50 days AFTER the 7th Sabbath. Unless you can show a 3rd month feast that supports your understanding of Lev-23:16, you have no intelligent argument at all.

Brother Arnold
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