Don't be dismayed...YirmeYahu 10:2

[Watchman555]

Genesis 1:14
And Elohim said, "Let lights come to be in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs (226) and appointed times, and for days and years,

YirmeYahu 10:2
Thus said Yahuah, "Do not learn the way of the gentiles, and do not be awed (2865) by the signs (226) of the heavens, for the gentiles are awed by them.


#226 owth
1) sign, signal
a) a distinguishing mark
b) banner
c) remembrance
d) miraculous sign
e) omen
f) warning
2) token, ensign, standard, miracle, proof

#2865 chathath
1) to be shattered, be dismayed, be broken, be abolished, be afraid
2) to be broken down with fear, be confounded



Land Dyak peoples (Hindu)
"At full moon and on the third day after it (called bubuk), no farm work may be done, unless it is wished that the paddy should be devoured by blight and mildew. In some tribes the unlucky days are those of the new and full moon, and its first and third quarters." Rest Days, page 37

Brahmans
With the development of the complex ritual of Brahmanism holy and unlucky days became almost identical with days when the sacred books should not be read. The code of Manu requires a learned Brahman not to recite the Veda on the new-moon day, or on the fourteenth and eighth days of each half-month, or on the full-moon day. It is said that "the new-moon day destroys the teacher, the fourteenth day the pupil, the eighth and full-moon days destroy all remembrance of the Veda; let him therefore avoid reading on those days." Rest Days, page 152

Babylonia
No other hypothesis will explain the outstanding fact that shabattum was equated with um nukh libbi as a day for appeasing the anger of the deity. And if for practical purposes the fourteenth day might be a shabattum, it is not difficult to assume that this was also the case with the days (seventh, twenty-first, and twenty-eighth, perhaps, also, the nineteenth), which marked other characteristic stages of the lunation. In the developed Babylonian cult all these were "evil days," when the gods must be propitiated and conciliated. Rest days, page 241


For further reading on Babylonian moon omens, please see:

http://www.geocities.com/astrologyomens ... arious.htm

from The Reports of the Magicians and Astrologers of Nineveh and Babylon: Vol II, R Cambell Thompson, London, March 1st, 1900.


So let me get this straight:

Yahuah appointed the luminaries and said they would be for signs and so on, and a sign is a distinguishing mark, so when you see the luminaries do something it would tell me it would have something to do with appointed times, days, and years. In other words, there is a distinguishing sign in the luminaries to indicate something such as the full moon being on the Feast day, (Ps. 81:3). So Yahuah says in YirmeYahu not to be dismayed at the signs for the heathen are dismayed; which is the same word used in Genesis 1:14 for signs. With a little research we have found where the heathen were dismayed at certain signs and as you have read, some are moon phase related. Hmmmm huh -okay.

~Greg

[Torahwoman]

Shalom,

i think i understand that better now.. the "dismayed" part...
so, am i correct that many believe the phrase "don't be dismayed by the signs" means "don't use them", ... when He's actually saying "don't fear what they fear and end up not using them (properly)" instead of "don't use them BECAUSE they MISuse them" ..?
Please pardon if that didn't come out right.

See, i was thinking that the "don't use them because others misuse them" was thrown at me to trip me up... but if i understand it correctly now, then i'm not trippin' .

"Thank you, YaHUaH ! "

trippin' woman? (lol. not in the above sense, anyway.... )

[Watchman555]

by Torahwoman
am i correct that many believe the phrase "don't be dismayed by the signs" means "don't use them"

Well T-Dub, that's an interesting question and I don't have the answer to it. Although, that is an interesting point, because one of the definitions for dismayed means "be abolished". So let's check out that verse again using 'abolished':

Thus said Yahuah, "Do not learn the way of the gentiles, and do not abolish the signs of the heavens, for the gentiles abolish them."


Now I'm not saying this is how this is supposed to read. However, it is interesting and we did find the word 'dismayed' was rendered 'abolished' in one instance. (Yesh. 51:6) Maybe it's not out of the realm of possibility.

~Greg

[kickme]

well, see, now that's something that does bother me.
See, I had one person send me a VERY lengthly email about lunar sabbaths, and that letter stated that it's safer to say the full moon as we normally know it, (that is, the bright big moon, fully rounded) is the true new moon, because the American Indians said so, and they weren't corrupted by the Babylonian system.

Which brings me this question:
Why is it that everyone is out to 'prove' that the rabbinical, pharisaical, or whatever one wants to call Judaism today, is so wrong on everything?
I mean, even out at FOT I heard someone make a declaration while in the tzitzit tying class to the effect that "well, the Jews traditionally do it thataway but we like doing it thisaway". I mean, really, why is the new tradition always supposedly better than the old?
No wonder the early christian church felt justified throwing out all traditions and starting their own.....
Where's that rock wall? I feel the need to bang my head awhile.

[ErichMatthewJanzen]

Shalom, "kickme"

You wrote the following:

well, see, now that's something that does bother me.
See, I had one person send me a VERY lengthly email about lunar sabbaths, and that letter stated that it's safer to say the full moon as we normally know it, (that is, the bright big moon, fully rounded) is the true new moon, because the American Indians said so, and they weren't corrupted by the Babylonian system.

Which brings me this question:
Why is it that everyone is out to 'prove' that the rabbinical, pharisaical, or whatever one wants to call Judaism today, is so wrong on everything?
I mean, even out at FOT I heard someone make a declaration while in the tzitzit tying class to the effect that "well, the Jews traditionally do it thataway but we like doing it thisaway". I mean, really, why is the new tradition always supposedly better than the old?
No wonder the early christian church felt justified throwing out all traditions and starting their own.....
Where's that rock wall? I feel the need to bang my head awhile.

I reply: I feel that our answer to what you've stated above should simply be to stay with the Scriptures. For example, the Scriptures do not state that the full moon is the new moon so therefore we know that this is an incorrect belief. Psalm 81 disproves the notion very well:

http://ministersnewcovenant.org/Is%20The%20New%20Moon%20The%20Full%20Moon.htm

Concerning traditions in Judaism, I do not see anything in Scripture where a believer is bound to a tradition in Judaism. Even Yeshua (Matthew 15; Mark 7) condemned the tradition of the elders. I once had someone tell me how Jewish tradition taught to tie the tassels, and I explained to them that I thought it was perfectly okay to tie the tassels in that fashion. However, to teach that one must tie the tassels in that fashion would be adding to the Torah command and placing one's tradition above the commandment of YHWH. There is nothing in the Torah that states for us to tie a certain amount of loops or knots, etc.

Likewise, you are correct in saying that the "Christian Church" has started many traditions that are not in Scripture. I feel the same about these traditions as I do the Jewish traditions. Some traditions aren't sinful (I do not believe) such as tying tassels the traditional Jewish way, but other traditions can be. The problem with these matters is that generally people who are devoted to traditions often show much more devotion to the tradition than they do to what YHWH actually commands in His law.

The main thing is that if we just stay with the written, inspired Word of YHWH we will be on the right track.

In the Messiah,
Matthew Janzen

[Watchman555]

Shalom Everyone,

There is also another way to look at this.

We will start out with one of the most widely used passages that seems to highly suggest it is speaking of a “christmas tree”. It has been widely used that this is one of the customs of the nations that we should not follow; even referring to it as a pagan practice. I’d like to point out,probably one of the most widely missed passages, verse one and two.


Jer 10:3-5
3 “For the prescribed customs of these peoples are worthless, for one cuts a tree from the forest, work for the hands of a craftsman with a cutting tool.
4 “They adorn it with silver and gold, they fasten it with nails and hammers so that it does not topple.
5 “They are like a rounded post, and they do not speak. They have to be carried, because they do not walk. Do not be afraid of them, for they do no evil, nor is it in them to do any good.”

So let’s take a look at what YirmeYahu says directly before he speaks of the “pagan practice” of the “christmas tree”.

ISR version says:

Jer10:1-2
1 Hear the word which Yahuah speaks to you, O house of Yisra’ĕl.
2 Thus said Yahuah, “Do not learn the way of the gentiles,and do not be AWED (H2865) by the SIGNS (H226) of the heavens, for the gentiles are AWED (H2865) by them.

H2865
חתת
châthath
khaw-thath'

A primitive root; properly to prostrate; hence to break down, either (literally) by violence, or (figuratively) by confusion and fear: - abolish, affright, be(make) afraid, amaze, beat down, discourage, (cause to) dismay, go down, scare,terrify.

H226
אות
'ôth
oth

Probably from H225 (in the sense of appearing); a signal (literally or figuratively), as a flag, beacon, monument, omen, prodigy, evidence, etc.: - mark, miracle, (en-) sign, token.

As we can see the definition for “awed” is to break down or abolish. Let’s look at this verse again:

Thus said Yahuah, “Do not learn the way of the gentiles, and do not abolish the signs of the heavens for the gentiles abolish them.”

What signs could it be that the gentiles are abolishing? We have to remember these signs are ‘owt’ which were assigned to the luminaries.Gen 1:14 And Elohim said, “Let lights come to be in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs(H226) and appointed times, and for days and years,

The sun and the moon are for signs, appointed times, days and years. We know that the Sabbath is an appointed time listed in Leviticus chapter 23. We also know:

Exo31:13
13 “And you, speak to the children of Yisra’ĕl,saying, ‘My Sabbaths you are to guard, by all means, for it is a sign (H226) between Me and you throughout your generations, to know that I, Yahuah, am setting you apart.

The Sabbath is not only an appointed time but it is a sign and:

Psa104:19
19 He made the moon for appointed times; The sun knows its going down.

Psa89:37
37 “Like the moon, it is established forever,And the witness in the heaven is steadfast.” Selah.

Scripture tells us the moon is for appointed times, it also tells us the moon is a faithful witness established forever in the heavens. Unless we are using the established witness for the appointed times and its signs then are we putting up a ‘chistmas tree’? I mean abolishing the signs of the heavens?

If we put this all together then it seems that abolishing the signs of the heavens is likened to one cutting down a tree out of the forest and taking it home, etc.

Shalom,

Greg.