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Pentecost Time Line Disproves Traditional Pentecost

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BrotherArnold
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Pentecost Time Line Disproves Traditional Pentecost

Postby BrotherArnold » 09 Jun 2008, 03:28

The following is a reasonable time line combined with deductive reasoning that kills the traditional Pentecost theory.


The children of Israel departed from Ramseys on the 15th day of the FIRST month, Numbers 33:3, and they had reached the wilderness of Sin of the 15th day of the SECOND month. Judging from my map of the children of Israel's journey from Ramseys to the Wilderness of Sin is approximately 150 mi. these figures creates a math problem because if we have a distance of approximately 150 mi. being traveled in 30 days and by dividing 30 into 150 we get an average of 5 mi. per day.

If we assume that at least four of the 30 days were no traveling days/Sabbaths which leaves 26 travel days in which to cover the 150 mi. from Ramseys to the Wilderness of Sin and if we divided 26 into 150, we get almost a 6 mi. per day average which seems about right because a grown man can travel 15 to 20 mi. per day but when we consider women and children moving all their belongings alone with the gold and different treasures from Egypt, I believe we can safely assume that the children and women could not travel the same distance in a day as a grown man, maybe one half the distance which would be seven to 10 mi. per day. On top of this, herding the animals, sheep, goats, and cattle, not to mention any poultry etc. at any rate around 6 mi. per day seems reasonable for such a great multitude traveling in the wilderness, carrying everything they have, headed for a new land. And whether it seems reasonable to you or not , according to the pinpointed number of days and the distance, almost 6 mi. per day was the average, this is an absolute.

According to my map it is approximately 220 mi. from Ramseys to Riphidim, therefore we can conclude that it is approximately 70 mi. across the Wilderness of Sin to Riphidim. Now if we do the math, we see what would be the earliest date they could have arrived at Riphidim after leaving the wilderness of Sin.

The earliest they could have left that campsite after receiving manna for seven days would be on the 23rd of the second month because we know from Exodus 16, the weekly Sabbath was on the 22nd of the second month. According to the above information from my map and math, it would take them approximately nine days to make the 50 mi. journey at almost 6 mi. per day because six times eight is 48.

Assuming they left for the 50 mi. journey on the 23rd, the soonest they could have arrived in Riphidim would be on the 1st of the third month because one of the nine days would have been a weekly Sabbath of no travel. If they were murmuring on the Sabbath and the new moon days because after about a week their water was gone and if they got the miracle water around the new moon day of the third month, and Amalek attacked them, Moses said for Joshua to go out and fight him TO MORROW, which would be the second day of the third month, Exodus 17:8 and the battle lasted all that day which would bring us to the third day of the third month and they still have to travel from Riphidim to the mount. All this is assuming they received the water and fought with Amalek, and left the water with their wounded and thirst animals, all on the same day, which is highly unlikely if not impossible. Not to mention that Moses wrote a book and built an altar after this great victory, see Leviticus 23:12-15. The Scripture does not read all of these events concerning the murmuring for water and the fight with Amalek etc. was back to back on the same day but even if it was, they still had to travel to the mount and it was three more days before the people were spoken the commandments and anyone who cannot accept this combined with the other evidence, is in the state of denial to say the least.

Brother Arnold
Last edited by BrotherArnold on 10 Jun 2008, 08:04, edited 2 times in total.
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chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 09 Jun 2008, 20:34

Hi Arnold,

Most of your scenario is at least reasonable; BUT ... you left out some important (and unknown) details, which i mentioned on the other thread, such as how many days they camped at each place. This would certainly negate any attempt to calculate their average daily distance.

The one figure you might use is the distance from the Red Sea crossing (Baal-zephon) to Marah, and divide it by 3, because it was a 3-day journey.
Chuck Baldwin
By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

BrotherArnold
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Postby BrotherArnold » 10 Jun 2008, 02:29

chuckbaldwin wrote:Hi Arnold,

Most of your scenario is at least reasonable; BUT ... you left out some important (and unknown) details, which i mentioned on the other thread, such as how many days they camped at each place. This would certainly negate any attempt to calculate their average daily distance.

The one figure you might use is the distance from the Red Sea crossing (Baal-zephon) to Marah, and divide it by 3, because it was a 3-day journey.


It doesn't matter how long they camped in any particular spot from Ramseys to the wilderness Sin because it took them 30 days to travel the 150 mi. and therefore they averaged 5 mi. per day. The following is my new time line.

The children of Israel departed from Ramseys on the 15th day of the FIRST month, Numbers 33:3, and the Almighty spoke to them in the wilderness of Sin on the 15th day of the SECOND month, Exodus 16:1.

Judging from my map of the children of Israel's journey from Ramseys to the Wilderness of Sin is approximately 150 mi. and when we do the math, we find approximately 150 mi. being traveled in 30 days and by dividing 30 into 150 we get an average of 5 mi. per day.

They stayed in the camp at the wilderness of Sin for at least seven days which brings us to a total of 37 days.

According to my map it is approximately 220 mi. from Ramseys to Riphidim therefore it is 70 mi. across the wilderness of Sin to Riphidim. It is conclusive that it took 30 days for them to cover the 150 mi. from Ramseys to the Wilderness of Sin, we can safely conclude that it took another 14 days to travel through the wilderness of Sin to Riphidim totaling 51 days.

When they camped at Riphidim there was no water there and the children of Israel murmured because after 14 days their water was gone and they were dying of thirst, so Moses strikes the rock etc. afterwards they were attacked by Amalek and Moses told Joshua to go out TO MORROW and fight against Amalek which would add another day to the 51 days, totaling 52 days and on the morrow the battle lasted all day until the going down of the sun which would be going into the 53rd day. On day 53, Moses was told to write a book and he also built an altar to the Almighty. Even if they left Riphidim on day 54 and traveled approximately 10 mi. to the mount, it would be day 55 when they reached mount and if the Almighty spoke the 10 commandments to them three days later, which would be a total of 58 days from Ramseys.

This time line is being very generous and it shows they could not have reached mount in the third month for the traditional Pentecost. Someone might question the 5 mi. per day average but a grown man can travel 15 to 20 mi. per day but when we consider women and children moving all their belongings alone with the gold and different treasures from Egypt, I believe we can safely assume that the children and women could not travel the same distance in a day as a grown man, maybe one half the distance which would be seven to 10 mi. per day. On top of this, herding the animals, sheep, goats, and cattle, not to mention any poultry etc. at any rate around 5 mi. per day seems reasonable for such a great multitude traveling in the wilderness, carrying everything they have, headed for a new land. And whether it seems reasonable to someone or not, according to the pinpointed number of days and the distance traveled, 5 mi. per day was the average, this is an absolute. All someone has to do is realize that ancient Israel and Israel today so spring wheat in the spring and reaps it in the summer and this is the Pentecost wheat which is 50 days after the seventh Sabbath complete according to Leviticus 23:16.

Brother Arnold
Last edited by BrotherArnold on 10 Jun 2008, 08:01, edited 1 time in total.
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chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 10 Jun 2008, 05:04

BrotherArnold wrote:It doesn't matter how long they camped in any particular spot from Ramseys to the wilderness Sin because it took them 30 days to travel the 150 mi. and therefore they averaged 5 mi. per day. The following is my new time line.
Arnold,

The above statement shows a complete lack of mathematical understanding, and evidently there's nothing i can do to help you see it. So i have no further comment.
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

BrotherArnold
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Postby BrotherArnold » 10 Jun 2008, 08:00

chuckbaldwin wrote:
BrotherArnold wrote:It doesn't matter how long they camped in any particular spot from Ramseys to the wilderness Sin because it took them 30 days to travel the 150 mi. and therefore they averaged 5 mi. per day. The following is my new time line.
Arnold,

The above statement shows a complete lack of mathematical understanding, and evidently there's nothing i can do to help you see it. So i have no further comment.



There's no way I am going to let you dismiss this time line by saying that there's nothing you can do to help me see what you are saying. Perhaps someone following this thread can explain to me and you what each of us are saying. And I don't doubt I might be off a day or two on my math but seriously doubt it will be enough to pull you out of this dilemma. But yes, I would like to see if any way.

Perhaps Sister cindy or someone can explain to you that if from point A to point B is approximately 150 mi. and a they traveled it in 30 days, this averages 5 mi. per day, no matter how many stops were made and how much time we spent at each stop. They may have traveled 3 mi. 1 day and 7 mi. the next which averages 5 mi. per day.

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

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chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 10 Jun 2008, 19:21

Arnold, since you posted the same thing in 2 different threads AGAIN, i'm confused as to which one to reply to. So i'll hold off on my reply until you decide where you want me to post it. I really don't have time to go around double-posting!
Chuck Baldwin

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chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 12 Jun 2008, 19:58

Hi Arnold,

Here's some stuff to think about for the next 10 days while i'm away. Recall my alluding to the fact that the Scripture leaves out some important details, such as how many days they camped at each place. I said that this would negate any attempt to calculate their average daily distance.

Actually, the words in red are incorrect; i should've said their average travelling speed, which is what we're really debating.

The one figure you might use is the distance from the Red Sea crossing (Baal-zephon) to Marah, and divide it by 3, because it was a 3-day journey.

Please calculate a travelling speed based on that 3-day segment, assuming no stopping except to sleep at night.


You claimed that it made no difference how many days they camped at each place, so here's a simple example the PROVES conclusively via solid math that it DOES make a difference. I know that you're notorious for mangling peoples' examples and missing the whole point, so study it carefully, and take your time (you have 11 days). I've made it as simple as it can get in order to illustrate the math involved. Please don't make it complicated by spouting a lot of unrelated rhetoric.

Let's assume i'm going to take a trip from Hometown (where i live) to Parentsville (where my parents live); visit my parents for an unknown # of days (limited to 7); then travel on to Cousintown (to visit my cousin).
From Hometown to Parentsville is 400 miles.
From Parentsville to Cousintown is also 400 miles.
To get the best mileage and not get too tired, i'll travel 8 hours a day at 50mph, so each leg will take 1 day's driving.
It should be obvious that each leg of the trip will take 1 day, for a total of 2 days DRIVING TIME. OK? Are you still with me? Is it simple enough so far?

Now here's where it gets a little tricky, so pay attention. Based on a 1-, 2-, 3-, 4-, 5-, 6-, or 7-day visit (encampment) at Parentsville, we will calculate the supposed "average daily distance" (ADD). (IF i only stayed overnight, it would obviously take 2 days, and the "ADD" would be 400 miles/day, which IN THIS INSTANCE ONLY, is equal to the Travelling Speed, which we have already specified.)

Formula: ADD = total miles (800)/total days.

1-day : Total time = 3 days; ADD = 800/3 = 267 miles per day.
2-days: Total time = 4 days; ADD = 800/4 = 200 miles per day.
3-days: Total time = 5 days; ADD = 800/5 = 160 miles per day.
4-days: Total time = 6 days; ADD = 800/6 = 133 miles per day.
5-days: Total time = 7 days; ADD = 800/7 = 114 miles per day.
6-days: Total time = 8 days; ADD = 800/8 = 100 miles per day.
7-days: Total time = 9 days; ADD = 800/9 = 89 miles per day.

So let's take the case where i visited in Parentsville for 6 days. As calculated, my ADD for the whole trip would be 100 miles per day, thus "proving" (using YOUR assumption) that it would be impossible to make either leg of the trip in only 1 day -- it would theoretically take 4 days to make either leg.

Therefore, since your assumption has "proved" something that we already know to be false, your assumption is proved to be incorrect. The LOGIC rule for this is known as "reducto ad absurdum", where a premise is tested by assuming it to be true, and it results in a conclusion that is known to be false, thereby proving the premise to be false.


That concludes my explanation; if you didn't get it the 1st time, read it through and THINK it through as many times as necessary. It conclusively PROVES that it DOES make a difference how many days they camped. "Average travelling speed" will equal "Average Daily Distance" ONLY IF THERE ARE NO STOPS.

And please don't copy this to another thread to respond; it only confuses people.
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

BrotherArnold
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Postby BrotherArnold » 15 Jun 2008, 06:45

Shalom Brother Chuck,

you wrote,

Here's some stuff to think about for the next 10 days while i'm away. Recall my alluding to the fact that the Scripture leaves out some important details, such as how many days they camped at each place. I said that this would negate any attempt to calculate their average daily distance.

Actually, the words in red are incorrect; i should've said their average travelling speed, which is what we're really debating.

RESPONSE; we are not discussing traveling speed here, we are discussing the average daily distance they traveled. There is no way to know how fast they walked from day to day, it is more you're unrelated rhetoric. I know that you're notorious for mangling peoples' examples and missing the whole point, so study it carefully, and take your time. They traveled approximately 150 mi. in 30 days which averages 5 mi. per day. Why make something so simple complicated with you're unrelated rhetoric? Someone might believe you.

You wrote,

The one figure you might use is the distance from the Red Sea crossing (Baal-zephon) to Marah, and divide it by 3, because it was a 3-day journey.

RESPONSE; here you go again! we have discussed the three days journey before and I guess you did not get it then and probably will not get it now but for the sake of future readers of these articles I will explain how that a three days journey IS A DISTANCE, not a TIME. Example, a Sabbath days journey is a DISTANCE one is allowed to travel on the Sabbath 24-hour day. The Sabbath day journey is a different DISTANCE than the ordinary work day's journey. Therefore a days journey and a Sabbath days journey and a three days journey are all different DISTANCES.

It is a three days journey from Georgia to California by car but I could make that three days journey last one week by stopping at different places. Just because it is a three days journey does not mean I have to travel it in three 24-hour days. The same is true with the three days journey into the wilderness, they did not have to do it in three 24-hour days as you suggest.

I also might make the three days journey in less than three days by airplane. Three days journey is a distance and we proved this from Scripture and we can go into it again if you wish.

When it says they went three days journey in the wilderness, it is like saying they went 50 or 60 mi. into the wilderness after crossing the Red Sea. When Scripture speaks of a day's journey, two days journey, or three days journey, etc. they are speaking of a distance/miles, no matter how long or how quick the distance was travel. When Scripture speaks of three days, 40 days, etc. it is speaking of TIME not DISTANCE but when it says day's journey or Sabbath day's journey etc. it is speaking of a distance NOT a day/time.

Please answer this simple question. If someone travels 150 mi. in 30 days, how many miles per day did they average???

Quit trying to muddy the water. They averaged 5 mi. per day and this is a mathematical certainty that no amount of twisting can change. They did not reach the mount in time for the traditional Pentecost of giving of the law. I will answer your next question in another post because it contains a lot of unrelated rhetoric and I am trying to keep it simple.

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

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BrotherArnold
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Postby BrotherArnold » 15 Jun 2008, 07:06

Shalom Brother Chuck,

you wrote,

You claimed that it made no difference how many days they camped at each place, so here's a simple example the PROVES conclusively via solid math that it DOES make a difference. I know that you're notorious for mangling peoples' examples and missing the whole point, so study it carefully, and take your time (you have 11 days). I've made it as simple as it can get in order to illustrate the math involved. Please don't make it complicated by spouting a lot of unrelated rhetoric.

Let's assume i'm going to take a trip from Hometown (where i live) to Parentsville (where my parents live); visit my parents for an unknown # of days (limited to 7); then travel on to Cousintown (to visit my cousin).
From Hometown to Parentsville is 400 miles.
From Parentsville to Cousintown is also 400 miles.
To get the best mileage and not get too tired, i'll travel 8 hours a day at 50mph, so each leg will take 1 day's driving.
It should be obvious that each leg of the trip will take 1 day, for a total of 2 days DRIVING TIME. OK? Are you still with me? Is it simple enough so far?

Now here's where it gets a little tricky, so pay attention. Based on a 1-, 2-, 3-, 4-, 5-, 6-, or 7-day visit (encampment) at Parentsville, we will calculate the supposed "average daily distance" (ADD). (IF i only stayed overnight, it would obviously take 2 days, and the "ADD" would be 400 miles/day, which IN THIS INSTANCE ONLY, is equal to the Travelling Speed, which we have already specified.)

Formula: ADD = total miles (800)/total days.

1-day : Total time = 3 days; ADD = 800/3 = 267 miles per day.
2-days: Total time = 4 days; ADD = 800/4 = 200 miles per day.
3-days: Total time = 5 days; ADD = 800/5 = 160 miles per day.
4-days: Total time = 6 days; ADD = 800/6 = 133 miles per day.
5-days: Total time = 7 days; ADD = 800/7 = 114 miles per day.
6-days: Total time = 8 days; ADD = 800/8 = 100 miles per day.
7-days: Total time = 9 days; ADD = 800/9 = 89 miles per day.

So let's take the case where i visited in Parentsville for 6 days. As calculated, my ADD for the whole trip would be 100 miles per day, thus "proving" (using YOUR assumption) that it would be impossible to make either leg of the trip in only 1 day -- it would theoretically take 4 days to make either leg.

Therefore, since your assumption has "proved" something that we already know to be false, your assumption is proved to be incorrect. The LOGIC rule for this is known as "reducto ad absurdum", where a premise is tested by assuming it to be true, and it results in a conclusion that is known to be false, thereby proving the premise to be false.

That concludes my explanation; if you didn't get it the 1st time, read it through and THINK it through as many times as necessary. It conclusively PROVES that it DOES make a difference how many days they camped. "Average travelling speed" will equal "Average Daily Distance" ONLY IF THERE ARE NO STOPS.

And please don't copy this to another thread to respond; it only confuses people.

RESPONSE; again! Brother Chuck, we are not talking about speed. You have introduced speed into the equation and as usual it is unrelated rhetoric to confuse the matter. The truth is hid from you in simplicity. If we have a distance of 150 mi. being traveled in 30 days, the average distance traveled is 5 mi. per day. This is a mathematical certainty and you can carry this math problem to a group of eighth graders and they can help you solve it. It has absolutely nothing to do with SPEED. I realize they could have traveled at a speed of one MILE PER HOUR one day and one half mile per hour the next day but that is immaterial and irrelevant to our search for truth BECAUSE we can safely assume that if they averaged 5 mi. per day for the first 150 mi., nothing is going to change for the next leg of the journey which is approximately 70 mi. unless you want to argue that the manna put more pep in their step, which would make a lot more sense than what you are saying now.

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

wstruse
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Postby wstruse » 16 Jun 2008, 16:15

The following verses may help clarify how many miles could have been traveled in a given day.

Deuteronomy 1:1-2 These be the words which Moses spake unto all Israel on this side Jordan in the wilderness, in the plain over against the Red sea, between Paran, and Tophel, and Laban, and Hazeroth, and Dizahab. 2 (There are eleven days' journey from Horeb by the way of mount Seir unto Kadeshbarnea.)

It seems that the Mt. Horeb here is a reference to Mt. Sinai. It is approximately 170 miles from Mt. Sinai to Kadeshbarnea. Even if the Mt Horeb here is not the Mt. Sinai in the Sinai Peninsula but the Mt Horeb in Arabia it is still 150 miles from Mt. Horeb in Arabia to Kadeshbarnea. This gives us a Biblical example of between 13 and 15 miles traveled per day. It seems like a lot but that’s what the Scripture says.
Regards,
Wstruse

P.S. I have provided a couple of topographical maps of the era on a separate thread because of their size.

BrotherArnold
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Postby BrotherArnold » 16 Jun 2008, 18:06

wstruse wrote:The following verses may help clarify how many miles could have been traveled in a given day.

Deuteronomy 1:1-2 These be the words which Moses spake unto all Israel on this side Jordan in the wilderness, in the plain over against the Red sea, between Paran, and Tophel, and Laban, and Hazeroth, and Dizahab. 2 (There are eleven days' journey from Horeb by the way of mount Seir unto Kadeshbarnea.)

It seems that the Mt. Horeb here is a reference to Mt. Sinai. It is approximately 170 miles from Mt. Sinai to Kadeshbarnea. Even if the Mt Horeb here is not the Mt. Sinai in the Sinai Peninsula but the Mt Horeb in Arabia it is still 150 miles from Mt. Horeb in Arabia to Kadeshbarnea. This gives us a Biblical example of between 13 and 15 miles traveled per day. It seems like a lot but that’s what the Scripture says.
Regards,
Wstruse

P.S. I have provided a couple of topographical maps of the era on a separate thread because of their size.


Shalom Brother Wstruse,

that is a good find. It gives us Scripture as to how many miles can be traveled in one-day. I think Moses is directing these words to the grown men of Israel 40 years later and not so much as to the women and little children because it would be more than a 11 days journey for them especially if they were carrying everything they had and herding cattle etc. it is most lightly referring the grown man which can average 15 mi. per day but women and small children along with herding cattle and flocks of animals could only travel a third that distance which would be in harmony with the five-mile per day that they averaged from Ramseys to the wilderness of Sin. At least that's the only way I can say how to harmonize both Scriptures.

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

wstruse
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Joined: 21 Jan 2008, 04:01

Postby wstruse » 16 Jun 2008, 18:27

Shalom Brother Arnold,

While I disagree with your conclusions concerning the Pentecost count, I would agree that 5 miles a day seems more likely for the amount of men, women, children, cattle and possessions mentioned in the Exodus.

Warm Regards,
Wstruse


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