Post from EliYah on 11/02/07- unedited

[BrotherArnold]

Watchman555 wrote:
11) During Yahusha's death, burial, and resurrection was there a weekly Sabbath after the first day of Unleavened Bread? How could there have been two Sabbaths during that time period when Yahusha rose the third day from "the time those things took place" as spoken of in Matt. 16:21; Luke 24:7, 21?



To get 3 days, with him dying on a preparation day:
Dead: preparation day, late.
Evening as the sun is setting: put in a tomb close by (John 19)
Evening: starts High day of unleavened bread, 15th.
Next day's evening: ends high day, one night and day in tomb
Next day's evening: Starts weekly sabbath, two nights and two days in tomb
Next day's evening: Ends weekly sabbath, three nights and three days in tomb
Morning, after the sabbath: Ladies go to balm the corpse, find him already risen.

RESPONSE; according to the above timeline the Messiah was killed on the 14th which is true but "If� He was in the grave one night and day on the 15th and one night and day on the 16th and one night and day on the 17th then on the 18th HOW in the world could the disciples say that today is the THIRD DAY since THESE THINGS happened when from the 14th to the 18th is at least THE FOURTH DAY??? See Luke 24:21


If you read a few verses before verse 21, you will see that the THIRD DAY since THESE THINGS happened, was referring to Him being delivered to Pilot and crucified on the 14th.

[JMSchattke]

[quote="BrotherArnold"] [quote="Watchman555"] wrote:
11) During Yahusha's death, burial, and resurrection was there a weekly Sabbath after the first day of Unleavened Bread? How could there have been two Sabbaths during that time period when Yahusha rose the third day from "the time those things took place"

[BrotherArnold]

It says that He would rise the THIRD DAY ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURE. The only Scripture that speaks of a third day is where the lambs were killed on the 14th and the 15th was unleavened bread and the 16th the first fruits were lifted up to be accepted of the Father. Corinthians speaks of the Messiah as the first fruits of them that sleep and He rose or was lifted up on the morrow after the Sabbath, same as in the Old Testament when the priest lifted up the first fruits on the morrow after the Sabbath for the Priest rehearsed this event for many years before it was fulfilled by the Messiah. If he did not rise the third day from the time he was killed, then the prophecy was not fulfilled.

If he was in the grave for 72 hours as some suggest, then he saw corruption/decay and he did not fulfill prophecy because it says that He would not leave His soul in Hell, neither would He suffer His Holy One to see corruption, which would have happened if he had been left in the grave for 72 hours. See http://lunarsabbath.org/index.html Sign of Jonah for complete details and positive proof that he was not left in the grave long enough to see corruption.

Brother Arnold

[JMSchattke]

First, and foremost: you are trying to distract to a tangent. That's bad form, sir.

It says that He would rise the THIRD DAY ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURE. The only Scripture that speaks of a third day is where the lambs were killed on the 14th and the 15th was unleavened bread and the 16th the first fruits were lifted up to be accepted of the Father.

Um, no. There are many instances of things happening "on the third day" - and that is not one of them.

I can find no such prophecy nor even such an assertion in the New Testament. Perhaps you could quote to passage for me.

The closest I came:
Joh 20:8 So, then, the other taught one, who came to the tomb first, also went in. And he saw and believed.
Joh 20:9 For they did not yet know the Scripture, that He has to rise again from the dead.
Joh 20:10 Therefore the taught ones went away again, by themselves.


The closest I can come to a prophecy about being raised on the third day is Hosea 6:2
Hos 5:15 "I shall go, I shall return to My place, until they confess their guilt and seek My face, in their distress diligently search for Me, and say,
Hos 6:1 'Come, and let us turn back to יהוה. For He has torn but He does heal us, He has stricken but He binds us up.
Hos 6:2 'After two days He shall revive us, on the third day He shall raise us up, so that we live before Him.

Which certainly isn't messianic. But, then, there are a lot of misused scriptures in the New Testament.

Corinthians speaks of the Messiah as the first fruits of them that sleep and He rose or was lifted up on the morrow after the Sabbath, same as in the Old Testament when the priest lifted up the first fruits on the morrow after the Sabbath for the Priest rehearsed this event for many years before it was fulfilled by the Messiah. If he did not rise the third day from the time he was killed, then the prophecy was not fulfilled.

1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you at the first that which I also received: that Messiah died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
1Co 15:4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised the third day, according to the Scriptures,
1Co 15:5 and that He was seen by Kepha, then by the twelve.

Most scholars can come closest to this referring to:
Psa 16:10 For You do not leave my being in the grave, Neither let Your Kind One see corruption.

but, really, that doesn't fit. I wonder what Scripture Paul was thinking of?

If he was in the grave for 72 hours as some suggest, then he saw corruption/decay and he did not fulfill prophecy because it says that He would not leave His soul in Hell, neither would He suffer His Holy One to see corruption, which would have happened if he had been left in the grave for 72 hours. See http://lunarsabbath.org/index.html Sign of Jonah for complete details and positive proof that he was not left in the grave long enough to see corruption.

72 hours is not enough time to see corruption or decay, that's why our culture holds funerals on the third day after the person dies. I suppose, though, you've never had fresh meat without benefit of a refrigerator. Look in the Torah; the third day is when the meat from a sacrifice must be destroyed, for then just the first bit of corruption is coming in.

I guess you really aren't trying to learn. You've made up your mind, and you've got your preaching position, and you would not be swayed were Yehvah to send a prophet to you.

[BrotherArnold]

BrotherArnold wrote:

It says that He would rise the THIRD DAY ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURE. The only Scripture that speaks of a third day is where the lambs were killed on the 14th and the 15th was unleavened bread and the 16th the first fruits were lifted up to be accepted of the Father.


Um, no. There are many instances of things happening "on the third day" - and that is not one of them.

I can find no such prophecy nor even such an assertion in the New Testament. Perhaps you could quote to passage for me.


RESPONSE; Matthew 16:21 says, and the killed, and be raised again THE THIRD DAY.

Matthew 17:23 and they shall kill him, and the THIRD DAY he shall be raised again.

Matthew 20:19 and crucify him: and the THIRD DAY He shall rise again.

Mark 9:31 and they shall kill him; and after that he Is killed, HE shall rise THE THIRD DAY.

Mark 10: 34 and shall kill him: and the THIRD DAY He shall rise again.

Luke 9:22 and be slain, and be raised THE THIRD DAy"

Luke 13:32 and I do cures today and tomorrow, and the THIRD DAY I shall be perfected.

Luke 18:33 and put him to death: and the THIRD DAY He set arise again.

Luke 24:7 and the crucified, and the THIRD DAY rise again.

Luke 24:46 and to rise from the dead the THIRD DAY.

Acts 10:40 Him YHWH raised up THE THIRD DAY.

First Corinthians 15:24 and that he was buried, and that He rose again the THIRD DAY ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES:.

I am going to stop on this last one and drawer your attention to ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES. Please tell me what scripture Paul is referring to?

I said that he would rise again the THIRD DAY according to the Scripture and you said, "Um, no. There are many instances of things happening "on the third day - and that is not one of them.

I can find no such prophecy nor even such an assertion in the New Testament. Perhaps you could quote to passage for me.

[BrotherArnold]

You Wrote,

72 hours is not enough time to see corruption or decay, that's why our culture holds funerals on the third day after the person dies. I suppose, though, you've never had fresh meat without benefit of a refrigerator. Look in the Torah; the third day is when the meat from a sacrifice must be destroyed, for then just the first bit of corruption is coming in.

RESPONSE; not so, the Scripture teaches that it can be eaten the first day and the second day but if ANY EATEN ON THE THIRD DAY, it is an abomination. the sacrifice was an abomination on the third day and I don't believe He fulfilled an abomination. See Leviticus 7:18 concerning the peace offering where the Father will not accept it and we know that the Messiah is our peace offering.

[chuckbaldwin]

Luk 24:21 "We, however, were expecting that it was He who was going to redeem Yisra'el. But besides all this, today is the third day since these matters took place.
...is not the scripture.

"ταυτην ημεÏ?αν αγει αφ ου ταυτα εγενετο" is not "the third day since these matters took place" - it is "ταυτην ημεÏ?αν αγει αφ ου ταυτα εγενετο". You're once again trying to argue away from the clear description of events based on a misunderstanding of a bad translation of a single verse.

Hi JMS,

It looks like you intended to give us your English translation, but instead you only repeated the Greek (2nd line above). I'm really interested in how you would render it, because i have debated with Arnold for 3 years on this, but i was using a different approach. If you have indeed found a translation error, it may well be a better approach than what i was using. So would you please give us your English rendering. Thanks

[JMSchattke]

Luk 24:21 "We, however, were expecting that it was He who was going to redeem Yisra'el. But besides all this, today is the third day since these matters took place.
...is not the scripture.

"ταυτην ημεÏ?αν αγει αφ ου ταυτα εγενετο" is not "the third day since these matters took place" - it is "ταυτην ημεÏ?αν αγει αφ ου ταυτα εγενετο". You're once again trying to argue away from the clear description of events based on a misunderstanding of a bad translation of a single verse.

Hi JMS,

It looks like you intended to give us your English translation, but instead you only repeated the Greek (2nd line above). I'm really interested in how you would render it, because i have debated with Arnold for 3 years on this, but i was using a different approach. If you have indeed found a translation error, it may well be a better approach than what i was using. So would you please give us your English rendering. Thanks

(LITV) But we were hoping that He is the One going to redeem Israel. But then with all these things, this third day comes today since these things happened.
(TS98) "we, however, were expecting that it was He who was going to redeem Yisra\'Ä•l. But besides all this, today is the third day since these matters took place.
(YLT) and we were hoping that he it is who is about to redeem Israel, and also with all these things, this third day is passing to-day, since these things happened.
(GNT-WH+) ημεις1473 P-1NP δε1161 CONJ ηλπιζομεν1679 V-IAI-1P οτι3754 CONJ αυτος846 P-NSM εστιν1510 V-PAI-3S ο3588 T-NSM μελλων3195 V-PAP-NSM λυτÏ?ουσθαι3084 V-PMN τον3588 T-ASM ισÏ?αηλ2474 N-PRI αλλα235 CONJ γε1065 PRT και2532 CONJ συν4862 PREP πασιν3956 A-DPN τουτοις3778 D-DPN Ï„Ï?ιτην5154 A-ASF ταυτην3778 D-ASF ημεÏ?αν2250 N-ASF αγει71 V-PAI-3S αφ575 PREP ου3739 R-GSM ταυτα3778 D-NPN εγενετο1096 V-2ADI-3S

I really hate to go against all the attempts at "literal" translations. But if they are wrong, they are wrong.

(JMS) but we expected him to immediately redeem Israel, however even so, today over three days have passed since these thing were done.

The word πασιν indicates fullness, of the phrase coming, the verb αγει indicates the "have passed" nature... not the "third day since" "but "over three days have passed."'

[JMSchattke]

BrotherArnold wrote:

It says that He would rise the THIRD DAY ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURE. The only Scripture that speaks of a third day is where the lambs were killed on the 14th and the 15th was unleavened bread and the 16th the first fruits were lifted up to be accepted of the Father.


Um, no. There are many instances of things happening "on the third day" - and that is not one of them.

I can find no such prophecy nor even such an assertion in the New Testament. Perhaps you could quote to passage for me.


RESPONSE; Matthew 16:21 says, and the killed, and be raised again THE THIRD DAY.

Matthew 17:23 and they shall kill him, and the THIRD DAY he shall be raised again.

Matthew 20:19 and crucify him: and the THIRD DAY He shall rise again.

Mark 9:31 and they shall kill him; and after that he Is killed, HE shall rise THE THIRD DAY.

Mark 10: 34 and shall kill him: and the THIRD DAY He shall rise again.

Luke 9:22 and be slain, and be raised THE THIRD DAY"

Luke 13:32 and I do cures today and tomorrow, and the THIRD DAY I shall be perfected.

Luke 18:33 and put him to death: and the THIRD DAY He set arise again.

Luke 24:7 and the crucified, and the THIRD DAY rise again.

Luke 24:46 and to rise from the dead the THIRD DAY.

Acts 10:40 Him YHWH raised up THE THIRD DAY.

First Corinthians 15:24 and that he was buried, and that He rose again the THIRD DAY ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES:.

I am going to stop on this last one and drawer your attention to ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES. Please tell me what scripture Paul is referring to?

I said that he would rise again the THIRD DAY according to the Scripture and you said, "Um, no. There are many instances of things happening "on the third day - and that is not one of them.

I can find no such prophecy nor even such an assertion in the New Testament. Perhaps you could quote to passage for me.

First: New Testament Writings are not "scripture" to new testament writers.

What scripture in the OLD TESTAMENT implies messiah must spend three days dead?

You've shown me assertions from the New Testament; which give a time period, and that time period is quite clearly stated in full - "three Days and Three Nights"

Now how can "three days and three nights" be reconciled? For you love your new testament, I love the law. And if your new testament is to be believed, every statement must jibe with every other - and with the law.

"τῇ Ï„Ï?ιÌ?τῃ ἡμεÌ?Ï?ᾳ ἐγεÏ?θῆναι" would be best rendered "after three days awoken." Then, all thes "third day refernces (which seem to use the same exact phrase) make sense with a "three days and three nights."

Personally, I say chuck it all out the window, it ain't needed. All this disputing is silly. But I'm a radical.

[chuckbaldwin]

[quote="JMSchattke"](GNT-WH+) ημεις1473 P-1NP δε1161 CONJ ηλπιζομεν1679 V-IAI-1P οτι3754 CONJ αυτος846 P-NSM εστιν1510 V-PAI-3S ο3588 T-NSM μελλων3195 V-PAP-NSM λυτÏ

[Watchman555]

Hey BrotherArnold,

This is very interesting, it seems that the Messiah would be considered a voluntary offering. I believe this would make an adequate argument against three days and three nights in the grave.

You Wrote,
RESPONSE; not so, the Scripture teaches that it can be eaten the first day and the second day but if ANY EATEN ON THE THIRD DAY, it is an abomination. the sacrifice was an abomination on the third day and I don’t believe He fulfilled an abomination. See Leviticus 7:18 concerning the peace offering where the Father will not accept it and we know that the Messiah is our peace offering.

Lev. 7:16-20:
16 "And if the offering he brings is a vow or a voluntary offering, it is eaten the same day that he brings his slaughtering, and what is left of it is eaten the next day, 17 but whatever is left of the flesh of the slaughtering on the third day is burned with fire. 18 "However, if any of the flesh of his peace offering is eaten at all on the third day, it is not accepted. It is not reckoned to him who brings it, it is unclean to him, and the being who eats of it bears his crookedness. 19 "And the flesh that touches that which is unclean is not eaten, it is burned with fire. And as for the clean flesh, all who are clean eat of it. 20 "But the being who eats the flesh of the peace offering that belongs to Yahuah, while he is unclean, that being shall be cut off from his people.

I thought I would post a few Scriptures that came to mind:

Hebrews 9:13-14:
13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the defiled, sets apart for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of the Messiah, who through the everlasting Spirit offered Himself unblemished to Elohim, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living Elohim?

1 Cor. 5:7:
7 Therefore cleanse out the old leaven, so that you are a new lump, as you are unleavened. For also Messiah our Passover was offered for us.

1 John 4:10:
In this is love, not that we loved Elohim, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be an atoning offering for our sins .

Just in those three verses alone we can see that Yahusha was a voluntary offering, a Passover offering, and an atoning offering.

1 Cor. 12:23-31:
For I received from the Master that which I also delivered to you: that the Master Yahusha in the night in which He was delivered up took bread, 24 and having given thanks, He broke it and said, "Take, eat, this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me."

~Greg

[BrotherArnold]

Shalom Brother Greg,

That's a good thought concerning the voluntary offering or free will offering, I had never thought of that but ever since someone mentioned it on the Sabbath form, I thought of Him as our peace offering as it teaches, so making peace, He Offered Himself and made peace for us with the Father, to all those who are ordained to accept it.



Brother Arnold
perhaps you could write a short article on it