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Prophet Joel and date of True Pentecost

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kickme
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Postby kickme » 20 May 2008, 17:03

so you telling me that he went to see a bunch of people who already knew truth and he had to spend 3 years there teaching them?

chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 20 May 2008, 17:22

cindy wrote:From what I read Yahusha walked the earth 40 days and then he told his followers to "tarry in Jerusalem until the Holy Spirit came".

Most people assume this was 10 days later for the Grain Pentecost.
I can say emphatically that is WRONG!
You can believe that. I think the evidence points to the New Wine Pentecost.
Hi Cindy,

I'll admit that '10 days' is an assumption, but at least it within the realm of credibility for "NOT MANY DAYS HENCE" in Acts 1:5.

I know i'm just 'assuming', but 60 days (the 10 + 50 more per Arnold) stretches my credibility just a little; and 110 days (60 + 50 more) stretches it beyond belief. :mrgreen:
Chuck Baldwin
By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

cindy
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Postby cindy » 21 May 2008, 09:32

Hello All,

Acts 1:5 is not a "witness" to me.
It's not specific enough for me to change my beliefs/worship one way or the other.
But, going over the chronology in Exodus and lining up the "3000" with Acts 2 and seeing my timeline later outlined in the
Dead Sea Scrolls written 2000+ years ago (some even older than the Septuagint),

now that is a "witness"!

From my witnesses the
New Grain Pentecost is in Sivan
New Wine Pentecost in AV
and New Oil Pentecost in late Elul.

I have given my "witnesses" in earlier posts.

No one has given any witnesses for alternatives other than manmade traditions and Acts 1:5 or no witnesses meaning that that what I have presented is just "made up" by the Essenes.
Brother Arnold has a timeline that adds 50 days to mine of which I asked recently to see if he thinks the Sivan date is moot and how can there be an atonement for oil after Tabernacles?
So, I'm not confident in that timeline.
I'm in this for the truth of the matter, not to be the smartest whip in the room.

This is not easy to digest, but it's much easier than what we went through tossing out Xmas and Easter and living the Feasts.
Golly, this is a cake walk, frankly.
And I'm grateful I have had the opportunity to pass on what I've discovered.

Cindy :)

chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 21 May 2008, 16:33

cindy wrote:This is not easy to digest, but it's much easier than what we went through tossing out Xmas and Easter and living the Feasts.
Golly, this is a cake walk, frankly.
And I'm grateful I have had the opportunity to pass on what I've discovered.
Hi Cindy,

Your statement above is amazing, because my experience is just the opposite. With just a little concrete history, and the clear statements of Scripture (as we know it); i had no problem deciding to switch from sunday to saturday, or to drop Xmas & Easter like hot potatoes.

This new paradigm requires that we choose between the Scriptures (as we know them), and the Dead Sea Scrolls. I can't see where we have the knowledge to be able to do that. Plus, if the DSS supercede Scripture, it means that NOBODY, from the 2nd century until the DSS were discovered, had any basis for a right relationship with YHWH.

Nevertheless, it's fascinating, and i'll keep reading your posts to see where it goes.
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

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Postby BrotherArnold » 22 May 2008, 02:55

cindy wrote:Hello All,

Acts 1:5 is not a "witness" to me.
It's not specific enough for me to change my beliefs/worship one way or the other.
But, going over the chronology in Exodus and lining up the "3000" with Acts 2 and seeing my timeline later outlined in the
Dead Sea Scrolls written 2000+ years ago (some even older than the Septuagint),

now that is a "witness"!

From my witnesses the
New Grain Pentecost is in Sivan
New Wine Pentecost in AV
and New Oil Pentecost in late Elul.

I have given my "witnesses" in earlier posts.

No one has given any witnesses for alternatives other than manmade traditions and Acts 1:5 or no witnesses meaning that that what I have presented is just "made up" by the Essenes.
Brother Arnold has a timeline that adds 50 days to mine of which I asked recently to see if he thinks the Sivan date is moot and how can there be an atonement for oil after Tabernacles?
So, I'm not confident in that timeline.
I'm in this for the truth of the matter, not to be the smartest whip in the room.

This is not easy to digest, but it's much easier than what we went through tossing out Xmas and Easter and living the Feasts.
Golly, this is a cake walk, frankly.
And I'm grateful I have had the opportunity to pass on what I've discovered.

Cindy :)


Shalom Sister Cindy,

Have not had much time for this form lately. I agree with you on Acts 1, not many days hence it's like us saying, it won't be to long now. I disagree with the following and believe that nature disagrees also.



New Grain Pentecost is in Sivan
New Wine Pentecost in AV
and New Oil Pentecost in late Elul.


RESPONSE; I agree there is new grain from the Winter wheat in the third month Sivan/June BUT this wheat takes seventh month to harvest and cannot be verified in Scripture.

Number two, I agree there is first ripe grapes 50 days from Sivan/June/third month to AV/August/fifth month BUT there is also summer wheat which takes four months to harvest and IS VERIFIED in Scripture. Therefore a person could bring a new meat offering AND new drink offering in this month which is 50 days AFTER the seventh Sabbath complete according to Leviticus 23:16 and it will line up with the same day that the Law was actually given to Moses and the same day that Aaron said was a chag. And it will also line up with the new wine on the day of Pentecost in the book of acts that was spoken by the prophet Joel. It will also harmonize withwhat our Saviour said, there are FOUR months THEN cometh the harvest, NOT seven.

I believe the Dead Sea Scrolls teaches to count 50 days after the seventh Sabbath for the new wine offering AND the new grain offering. It also teaches to count 50 days after the seventh Sabbath from the new wine offering to the new oil offering because there is no new oil offering 50 days from the new wine offering, in the seventh month Elul/September..

Let's keep kicking is around and stay open because we are making progress.

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...

Brother Arnold
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BrotherArnold
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Postby BrotherArnold » 22 May 2008, 03:21

cindy wrote:From what I read Yahusha walked the earth 40 days and then he told his followers to "tarry in Jerusalem until the Holy Spirit came".

Most people assume this was 10 days later for the Grain Pentecost.
I can say emphatically that is WRONG!
You can believe that. I think the evidence points to the New Wine Pentecost.

My point from Romans 3 is that the "Jew" mentioned was not the Jew I had originally thought, which was the Jew(s) who put together the books in the Septuagint. It was the Jew(s) who penned the DSS and included the books of Enoch and Jubilees and other writings unknown in the Septuagint that were given the "oracles of YHWH".

Now the DSS have everything that the OT does except Esther. So it's not like we have been missing the whole boat.
But, if you read the DSS you know that there is much more than the OT.

I believe the reason Shaul/Paul went to Damascus was to apprehend a large group of followers of The Way who were "Essenes" that broke from Qumran BCE and were followers originally of Menahem the Essene and Hillel Pharisees who left after the massacre in 20 BCE.

It was definitely a teaching center because he spent three years there before even going back to Jerusalem.

I'm saying there is evidence of a connection. It is not a new idea, but the New Wine Pentecost I have not seen connected to Acts 2 anywhere in DSS commentaries.

Anyone else?

Cindy


RESPONSE; I believe it was BOTH, the new meat offering AND the new drink offering Pentecost. I believe the floors were full of wheat and new wine presses full of wine just like the prophet Joel said. And if you will notice that through the Scriptures you have corn and new wine mentioned together, same as Sabbath and new moons. The Sea Scrolls is so fragmented that the scholars had to guess as to what went where and with the traditional understanding of Pentecost being 50 days after the wave sheaf, it is safe to say that it would have influence their guess. I believe the Scrolls teaches to count seven sabbaths and 50 days from the wave sheaf and then bring the new wine offering and the same is true for the new grain offering. Both of them are 50 days after the seventh Sabbath from the wave sheaf. And the new oil offering is seven sabbaths plus 50 days from Pentecost as Scrolls 21 teaches.

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

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cindy
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Postby cindy » 22 May 2008, 07:19

Hello,

Chuck, you missed my note when I said that the OT and the DSS have the same books except Esther and that the DSS has even more writings that we should be mindful of.

These same writings, Enoch and Jubilees, are mentioned in the New Testament either directly like in Jude 1:14 or indirectly with the verses pertaining to Angeology and demonology. This is no secret.

This new paradigm requires that we choose between the Scriptures (as we know them), and the Dead Sea Scrolls. I can't see where we have the knowledge to be able to do that. Plus, if the DSS supercede Scripture, it means that NOBODY, from the 2nd century until the DSS were discovered, had any basis for a right relationship with YHWH.


What choice is there to make when you have What is Missing in our OT available right at your finger tips that is dated to the precise time of the Second Temple?

This discussion has nothing to do with those in the the past having a right relationship with YHWH.
Blindness has been upon them and us for one reason or another.
YHWH will judge all perfectly.
To those who were unaware not due to their own fault this is where YHWH's mercy comes in.
But, for us who have been born again and are being lead by the Holy Ruach this does not apply.


What this has to do with is OUR coming out of Ignorance into knowledge of YHWH's forgotten statutes so that when we are In the Land we will know what to do and be able to teach others. This is our calling. We are the Firstfruits.

Twice the commandment is given...
Exodus 23:19
The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring into the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

Exodus 34:26
The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

These commandments are not talking only of grain....

Nehemiah 10:37

And [that] we should bring the firstfruits of our dough, and our offerings, and the fruit of all manner of trees, of wine and of oil, unto the priests, to the chambers of the house of our God; and the tithes of our ground unto the Levites, that the same Levites might have the tithes in all the cities of our tillage.

In the Millennial Kingdom we will be commanded to bring the Firstfruits for the Priests.

Ezekiel 44:30
And the first of all the firstfruits of all [things], and every oblation of all, of every [sort] of your oblations, shall be the priest's: ye shall also give unto the priest the first of your dough, that he may cause the blessing to rest in thine house.

And we will not be permitted to trade the firstfruits as well.

Ezekiel 44:18
And they shall not sell of it, neither exchange, nor alienate the firstfruits of the land: for [it is] holy unto the LORD.


=====================================

Brother Arnold,

I can see a dual offering on the New Wine Pentecost having wheat/grain included.
My hesitation in dismissing the Sivan date is because of the timeline in Exodus and the importance of the Marriage contract sealed in blood.
The Sivan date also ties into the Covenants with Noah and Abraham so I believe the Marriage Covenant is a continuation of that precedent.

I am not convinced the New Grain Pentecost was for wheat ONLY, as well. I don't see any hard evidence in the Torah saying this festival was for wheat ONLY. It could have been for the last of the barley harvest or whatever was harvestable at that time during that year.

Wheat is Strong's 2406

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexi ... 2406&t=kjv
It only occurs 6 times in the Torah
and
Wheat is Strong's 1715 as well


Corn is Strong's 1715

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexi ... 1715&t=KJV
It only occurs 11 times in the Torah

Barley is Strong's 8184

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexi ... 8184&t=KJV
It only occurs 4 times in the Torah

Exodus 23, 34, Lev 23 all Do Not talk of any particular grain for the wave offering on the First Pentecost.

Lev 23:16-17
then you shall offer a new grain offering to the Lord. 17 You shall bring from your dwellings two wave loaves of two-tenths of an ephah. They shall be of fine flour; they shall be baked with leaven. They are the firstfruits to the Lord.

Could this be barley loaves? I think so.
Is this at odds with the DSS? I don't think so because by the first century they could very well have Fall wheat by Sivan ready enough for two loaves.
And, if there was a drought and only rie made it, well then it would be rie for the loaves.
See what I'm getting at?

So, I do still stand that Sivan had a grain offering, but it did not have to be wheat.

As for the Oil Pentecost I still need more witness' as to how it could be After Tabernacles.
Let me know.

Cindy

kickme
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Postby kickme » 22 May 2008, 13:58

it is possible that you guys could be correct on some of this, but maybe it's simpler than we think.
We definetly were told to assemble 3 times per year, so I guess I'd call those the 'great feasts'
However, it appears they brought tithes and offerings for all their harvests.
Think of it this way, not all were barely farmers, nor were all wheat farmers. If everyone grew corn, there'd be too much corn. So what's a fellow to do? He brings his offering for whatever he grew when it is harvested.

My question is what was ready for offering 50 days after passover. I have noticed that they call many of the crops by the same name. ie, it's grain, whether it's corn, wheat or barley. I might be wrong on that, because it's been a while since I studied that, but it's my recollection. So what's traditionally known as wheat for shavout might actually have been a different type of grain. If not, straighten me out please :P

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Postby BrotherArnold » 22 May 2008, 17:34

The Timing of the Second Coming of the Messiah further confirms a summer wheat harvest and a fourth month Pentecost.

Below are some of the reasons why I believe the Scripture indicates that the second coming of the Messiah will be at the time of the firstfruits of the grape and summer wheat harvest of which both are in the fourth month/Pentecost.

Many people do not realize that they are TWO wheat harvests in the world day, including Israel, one in the spring shortly after Barley harvests and one in the summer, seven Sabbaths plus 50 days after the wave sheaf, Leviticus 23:16.

The Scripture teaches that the Almighty came with 10,000 of His saints and delivered a fiery law on Mount Sinai, Deuteronomy 33:2, and it was at the end of Moses 40 days and 40 nights in the Mount Deuteronomy 9:11. And Exodus 31:18 this happened exactly seven lunar Sabbaths plus 50 days after the wave sheaf and this is the true day of Pentecost.

If the law was given at the end of the 40 days and 40 nights as the above Scripture teaches, it would be at the time of the summer wheat and grape harvests are ripe.

The book of Jude 14 teaches that Enoch, the seventh from Adam prophesied that the Almighty would come with 10 thousands of His saints to execute judgment on all, and to convince all of the ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed. And that is exactly what Moses said happened in Deuteronomy 33:2.
Paul said that without the law there's no knowledge of sin and when the Almighty came on Mount Sinai, He delivered the fiery law to convince them of their ungodly deeds/sin.

Jude 12 teaches it was during the FEAST and these wicked lawbreakers were spots in their love/charity feast.
The law was given to Moses who was the king of Israel according to Deuteronomy 33:5 and from them on every king of Israel was to write a copy of the law according to Deuteronomy 17:18 same as Moses did in Exodus 24:4 which was actually before the Pentecost law that the Almighty had written according to Exodus 24:12.

Enoch prophesied of this monumental event and it happened at Pentecost and I believe He's coming again with the same 10 thousands of saints for judgment and it will be 50 days after the seventh Sabbath complete, same as
the very day the law and tables of stone were given, which were written with the finger of the

Almighty, see Deuteronomy 9:11 and Exodus 31:18 etc. and guess what, this is the time of summer wheat and grape harvest because it was 50 days after the seventh Sabbath complete. Obviously the ungodly among them were convinced by the law of their ungodly deeds because they informed Moses they would do it.

Not only did the Almighty come on the day of Pentecost and delivered the law to Moses, another major event happened on Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came on the day of Pentecost in the book of Acts when the floors where full of wheat and new wine presses full wine exactly like the prophet Joel chapter three said it would be.

Why would anyone reject the idea that His return to render judgment against those for breaking his law be at the same time or season that the righteous law was given/at the summer harvest?

Also through His Great Mercy the Holy Spirit was given on the very day and season that the law was given/Pentecost and I believe those that refuses His mercy will receive justice on the very same day/Pentecost that the law was given when he come back to rewards those that kept it and punish those who would not.

No man knows which Pentecost and therefore no man knows the day, hour, nor the season. It could be years from now but I doubt it because of other signs of the time. If the law was given at the end of 40 days and 40 nights it would be at the time the grapes and summer wheat harvest are ripe which is seven Sabbaths plus 50 days from the wave sheaf which is also AFTER the summer solstice as Scripture teaches in Exodus 23:16 and that is how they could have been accused of being drunk on new wine on the day of Pentecost in the book of Acts.

Several prophets that spoke of the end time coming judgment, connected the second coming with the summer wheat and grape harvest and this is no coincidence. The apostle John in Revelation 14:19 says, “and the ANGEL thrust in his Sickle into the earth, and gathered the VINE of the earth, and cast it into the great WINE PRESS of the wrath of the Almighty.” Revelations 14:15 says, thrust in thy Sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the HARVEST of the earth is RIPE. This is both natural and spiritual.

Notice it says cast in thy Sickle the harvest is RIPE. The prophet Joel says in 3:11, cause your Holy ones to come down O YHWH. And verse 13 says, put ye in the SICKLE, for the HARVEST is RIPE: come, get you down; the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.

Notice how both, the Apostles and Prophets, connect the end time coming of judgment with the first ripe grape season which is at the same time that the law was given to Moses and the Holy Spirit was poured out and now the judgment will be in the same season according to the Apostles and Prophets. The summer wheat harvest is also ripe at this time also.
It is agriculturally impossible for grapes to be ripe in the third month for the traditional Pentecost.

The Messiah likened the end of the world/age with the harvest of wheat. Matthew 13:30 says that wheat will be harvested at His coming. He will gather the wheat into the barns at His second coming and the tares will be burned with unquenchable fire. The tares and wheat will grow together until harvest time and harvest time is when the grapes are ripe also, see Matthew13:30-39 where He explained the parable of the harvest and said in verse 39 that the HARVEST is the end of the world; and the REAPERS are the ANGELS.

If the Angels, or Mighty ones, are the reapers in Joel, Revelations, and Matthew, this proves a FOURTH month wheat harvest because the grapes are present at harvest time. Leviticus 23:16 should be interpreted to number 50 days AFTER the seventh Sabbath complete.

Summary: Joel says in 3:11, cause your Holy ones to come down O YHWH. Verse 13 says, put ye in the SICKLE, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.

Matthew 13:30 teaches that He will send his Angels to gather the wheat harvest at the end of the world. Remember He recognizes a four months to harvest NOT seven, John 4:35. Any harvest that takes four months to harvest has to be a summer harvest. All seeds that are planted in the fall takes seven months to harvest and therefor the fields He was referring to was the summer wheat harvest and this alone proves summer wheat NOT Winter wheat.

Revelation 14:18-19 teaches that as soon as the grapes were ripe the Angel thrust in his sharp Sickle to reap the vines. This has to be in the fourth month around Pentecost wheat harvest firstfruits because grapes are not ripe in the third month for the traditional Pentecost.

The grape and summer wheat harvest are both in the same fourth month.

I believe I have shown evidence from Scripture that He is coming at the beginning of the new wine grape harvest which is in the fourth month, and shown that the wheat is reaped at this time also. The timing of the Messiah's second coming prove Pentecost in the fourth month because He says that He will send His reapers at the end of the world to reap the wheat harvest into the barn and the tares to be burned, and in Joel 3:11-13 teaches He will send down the MIGHTY ONES to reap at the time of grape harvest and the only way to harmonize these is with the summer wheat harvest which takes place shortly after the grapes are ripe, NOT the traditional winter wheat harvest. This way the new wine drink offering and the new meat grain offering is brought to the house of the Almighty on the day of Pentecost as spoken of by the prophet Joel.

Isaiah 16:5-6 says, and it shall be as when the harvest men gathereth the CORN, and reapeth the ears with the arms; and it shall be as he that gathereth ears in the valley of Rephaim. Yet GLEANING GRAPES shall be left in it,… .

Again this can only be the summer wheat harvest because of the presence of ripe grapes and notice it appears the corn is being gathered AFTER the grapes.

Isaiah 18:5 says For BEFORE the harvest, the bud is perfect, and the sour grape is RIPENING in the flower,…

Philo even testifies that the seeds are sown BEFORE the grapes are ripe and harvested AFTER the grapes are ripe which can only be referring to the summer wheat harvest and not the winter wheat harvest. Philo on REWARDS AND PUNISHMENTS Chapter 17 (101)

Amos 8:1-10 suggest that He is coming back on a CHAG/Pentecost SUMMER wheat harvest at the end of the age. These verses teach that Amos saw a BASKET of SUMMER FRUIT and the Scripture teaches the firstfruits of the harvest was to be brought in a BASKET according to Deuteronomy 26:2 and the Almighty said the END is come upon My people Israel; I WILL NOT PASS BY THEM ANY MORE. And the SONGS of the temple shall be howling in THAT DAY, saith the Almighty: there shall be many DEAD BODIES in every place; they shall cast them forth with silence.”

Verse five teaches there were some crooked merchants that could hardly wait for the new moon and Sabbath to be gone so that they could sale this new Pentecost wheat because Pentecost is ALWAYS back to back with the new moons and Sabbath and the earliest anyone could sell any of it would be after the Sabbath and new moon passed and VERSE 10 says that he will turn their FEAST into mourning, and there songs into lamentation;..., indicating that this will happen on a SUMMER feast/Chag day.

The Hebrew word FEAST is CHAG and the basket of SUMMER WHEAT tells us that it is the SUMMER CHAG feast that he is going to turn into mourning on THAT day that He no longer passes by them. Verse 9 says it shall come to pass in THAT DAY, He will cause the sun to go down at noon and DARKEN the earth in the clear day and then verse 10 is where He teaches He will turn this summer wheat Chag into mourning. This can only be a summertime second return at Pentecost Chag in the fourth month, according to the words of YHWH to Amos.

I believe the above is also speaking of His second coming and it will be on a chag when the basket of summer fruit is offered. Even though grapes harvest is not mentioned here we know the Scripture always refers to summer wheat, and the grapes will be ripe at the time of this feast.

I want to mention again that I believe the Scripture teaches that the NEW meat meal offering and the NEW wine drink offering were both offered at Pentecost in the fourth month.

The following will show that BOTH the corn and new wine was in very same feast/moed and we all should know that is agriculturally impossible to have any new wine before the fourth month.

Hosea 2:9-11 teaches the New wine is offered on a FEAST day/moed and we know the new wine grape harvest BEGINS in the fourth month, therefore they had to be a FEAST in the FOURTH month at grape harvest when the wheat is also ripe. And on top of this verse 11 mentions a Chag. Let's read Hosea 2:9-11,

“Therefore I will RETURN, and take away my CORN thereof, and my “WINE” in the “SEASON” thereof, ….”

I want to point out that the above word “WINE” is Strong's 8492 which means NEW WINE or fresh grape juice, (as just squeezed out); (rarely) fermented wine (new, sweet) wine. And the word for “SEASONS” is Strong's 4150/Moed/feast/appointment. Now ask yourself when does the grape harvest began for the new wine and what feast/appointment/moed could there be at that time, unless it is the summer wheat/corn harvest moed/Pentecost?

The answer is obvious because the grape harvest begins in the fourth month for the new wine and the firstfruits of the summer wheat is also reaped in the fourth month and therefore you can have a new meat offering and a new drink offering at the moed/feast/Pentecost in the fourth month.

The above verse is saying that he will return and take away his corn and new wine in the moed/feast i.e. He will return in this feast/moed which has both corn and new wine and can only be the summer wheat moed/feast because of the new wine.

Notice also that He said I will RETURN and take away the corn and the new wine in the moed/feast etc. and this alone with the other evidence, leads me to believe He will RETURN at CORN/wheat and grape harvest/Pentecost because of the things He and the prophet Joel said, along with John in Revelations and now Hosea.

Verse 11 seems to indicate the above summertime appointment/moed is also a Chag because it says, I will also cause ALL her mirth to cease, her FEAST days, her new moons, and her Sabbaths, and ALL her solemn FEASTS.

The first word “feast” is the Hebrew word Chag/feast and their is only three per year, Unleavened Bread in the springtime, Pentecost in the summer, and Tabernacles in the fall. The only Chag that will fit verse 11 is the Pentecost summer wheat harvest because there are no first ripe grapes for the new wine offering in the first or seventh month. Remember there are TWO wheat harvests in the world today, one in the spring and one in the summer when the grapes are ripe and the only one we have been able to pinpoint in Scripture is the summer harvest. The second feast is Strong's 4150/moed's and He is going to cause ALL of the appointments/moed's to cease.

When we read the whole story, it appears that Israel was going after other lovers and giving the credit for the corn and the new wine to other gods. The above also could be referring to His return for judgment as we saw in Joel and in Revelations and Matthew 13:30 etc. of whom all spoke of this second coming of judgment, at grape harvest/wheat harvest/Pentecost.

I will give a few more Scriptures from Hosea that shows that the Pentecost wheat is the summer wheat in the fourth month after the grapes are ripe.

The following shows the new wine and corn together Hosea 9:1-5 tells more of the judgment and the cornfloor and the new wine that shall fail and verse four says they shall not offer (new) wine offerings etc. and this new wine offerings would have to be in the fourth month when the grapes are first ripe. And verse five mentions a Chag again and it says, what will you do in the solemn day, and in the day of “THE” FEAST of YHWH?

The word feast is Chag and this verse seems to be referring to a single FEAST/Chag of YHWH, the one at his second coming/Pentecost.

Chapter 14:7 and 7:14 mentions corn and new wine together but is not as glaring as the above. There are many more Scriptures that show the Messiah knew what he was talking about in the parable of the harvest, when he said that the wheat harvest is at the end and he will send his Angels to reap it.

The TRUMPETS were blown on the day of Pentecost and Philo teaches that immediately after Pentecost comes the festival of the sacred new moon and says “it the true feast of trumpets” because that is when the holy oracles of the law were given. THE SPECIAL LAWS TWO Chapter 31 (188) I could go on and on with Scripture that shows He came and gave the law at the summer wheat and grape harvest and comforter, which is the Holy Spirit came at wheat and grape harvest in the book of Acts and in Joel, Revelations, and Matthew, Hosea, etc. teach that He is coming again at that same grape and wheat harvest but this is probably too long for some already. As I said, the season of His second coming shows a summer, NOT spring Pentecost.


Brother Arnold
Last edited by BrotherArnold on 23 May 2008, 04:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby BrotherArnold » 23 May 2008, 04:27

Shalom All,

I made the following change concerning prophet Amos and I did not want anyone to overlook this very important prophecy.

Amos 8:1-10 suggest that He is coming back on a CHAG/Pentecost SUMMER wheat harvest at the end of the age. These verses teach that Amos saw a BASKET of SUMMER FRUIT and the Scripture teaches the firstfruits of the harvest was to be brought in a BASKET according to Deuteronomy 26:2 and the Almighty said the END is come upon My people Israel; I WILL NOT PASS BY THEM ANY MORE. And the SONGS of the temple shall be howling in THAT DAY, saith the Almighty: there shall be many DEAD BODIES in every place; they shall cast them forth with silence.”

Verse five teaches there were some crooked merchants that could hardly wait for the new moon and Sabbath to be gone so that they could sale this new Pentecost wheat because Pentecost is ALWAYS back to back with the new moons and Sabbath and the earliest anyone could sell any of it would be after the Sabbath and new moon passed and VERSE 10 says that he will turn their FEAST into mourning, and there songs into lamentation;..., indicating that this will happen on a SUMMER feast/Chag day.

The Hebrew word FEAST is CHAG and the basket of SUMMER WHEAT tells us that it is the SUMMER CHAG feast that he is going to turn into mourning on THAT day that He no longer passes by them. Verse 9 says it shall come to pass in THAT DAY, He will cause the sun to go down at noon and DARKEN the earth in the clear day and then verse 10 is where He teaches He will turn this summer wheat Chag into mourning. This can only be a summertime second return at Pentecost Chag in the fourth month, according to the words of YHWH to Amos.

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

cindy
Posts: 71
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 07:29

Postby cindy » 27 May 2008, 04:47

Thanks Brother Arnold!

I will go over in detail today your latest post and study.

I still say we are not learning all this NOW just for a mental exercise.


Kickme,

To answer your question I think the New Grain Pentecost was whatever the early grain crop.
The Wave sheaf was waved (Nisan 16) ie. LIke Yahusha and the first grain harvest 50 days later was baked into loaves. It was leavened and not burned on the altar (nothing leavened is ever burned on the altar), but eaten later.
The Scripture is not specific so I don't think we need to be for the New Grain Penetcost, either.

There is something very important to this Pentecontad Calendar that is being made aware to us. I have not yet studied it fully. In time hopefully the importance will be made known to us.

Until then let's keep studying ourselves approved and be good examples to those around us (not easy for me sometimes-let me tell ya
:wink: -but, we must).

Cindy

cindy
Posts: 71
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 07:29

Postby cindy » 27 May 2008, 12:04

Brother Arnold,

Why would anyone reject the idea that His return to render judgment against those for breaking his law be at the same time or season that the righteous law was given/at the summer harvest?


This is the very subject I approached at the onset. The speech by PETER struck as more than a doomsday discourse for those present.

If the Angels, or Mighty ones, are the reapers in Joel, Revelations, and Matthew, this proves a FOURTH month wheat harvest because the grapes are present at harvest time. Leviticus 23:16 should be interpreted to number 50 days AFTER the seventh Sabbath complete.


You keep pounding the "forth" month. The Spirit came on the New Wine Pentecost 30 CE. This correlates to the beginning of the fifth millennium or spiritually the fifth month.

Isaiah 16:5-6 says, and it shall be as when the harvest men gathereth the CORN, and reapeth the ears with the arms; and it shall be as he that gathereth ears in the valley of Rephaim. Yet GLEANING GRAPES shall be left in it,… .


Isaiah 17:6
Yet gleaning grapes shall be left in it, as the shaking of an olive tree, two [or] three berries in the top of the uppermost bough, four [or] five in the outmost fruitful branches thereof, saith the LORD God of Israel.

Harvesting takes weeks to complete.
My understanding of the Tribulation is that it will last 3.5 years, but I have not studied this in light of the current topic.
This is sobering out of a whole tree only TWO berries at the top and FIVE on the fruitful branches.

Yo mentioned Amos 8 in your witness for the timing of His coming.
Amos 8 also talks about the sun going down at noon.
Amos 8:9
And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day.

This can only mean a solar eclipse or the sun literally "going out" for awhile.
On Aug 12, 2026 there will be a total eclipse. This is Elul 1 and 40 days hence is Yom Kippur.
On Aug 2, 2027 there will be a total eclipse. This is Av 1. New Wine Pentecost.
On July 22, 2028 there will be a total eclipse. Again this is Av 1. Again New Wine Pentecost.

I've wanted to put together a timeline backed up with verses to figure out the endtime sequence.
All of this is very helpful.
Too, just like the stars and moon and planets all revolve around the sun with different times and orbits I think we have more than one calendar or significant numbering systems to figure out.

Cindy

chuckbaldwin
Posts: 334
Joined: 21 Oct 2007, 13:44
Location: East Ridge, TN

Postby chuckbaldwin » 27 May 2008, 14:14

My current thoughts are:

1. Yahshua will come for His Bride (the 144K) on Pentecost in the last year of the Tribulation, as this was when the original marriage between YAHWEH & Israel occurred. Also, counting from Passover, it corresponds to the '2300 evening/morings (1150 days)' in Dan.8, when the 'sanctuary will be cleansed'.

2. The judgements of YHWH would most likely be associated with the Day of Trumpets, as referenced in Joel 2, followed by repentence & reconciliation on the Day of Atonement, also in Joel 2.

3. The pouring out of the Spirit on "all flesh" would relate to Pentecost in the 1st year of the Kingdom, Joel 2 again.

4. As of the final Day of Trumpets, the year will revert back to starting in the fall, and the day will revert back to starting at dawn.
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

cindy
Posts: 71
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 07:29

Postby cindy » 28 May 2008, 04:00

What years are you thinking, Chuck?

cindy
Posts: 71
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 07:29

Postby cindy » 28 May 2008, 04:02

PS: I won't hold you to it,
if you won't hold me to it.
:lol:


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