Prophet Joel and date of True Pentecost

[cindy]

Just for information there will be a total solar eclipse on Aug 1 at 10:22 UT.
New Wine Pentecost?

http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/solar.html

The New Moon for Av is on Aug 1 at 10:13 UT

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/MoonPhase.php

I find this significant as well as the timing of our discussion.
Anybody else?

In Yahusha,
Cindy

[BrotherArnold]

Just for information there will be a total solar eclipse on Aug 1 at 10:22 UT.
New Wine Pentecost?

http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/solar.html

The New Moon for Av is on Aug 1 at 10:13 UT

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/MoonPhase.php

I find this significant as well as the timing of our discussion.
Anybody else?

In Yahusha,
Cindy

Very interesting because it will also be the day that I wave the two wave loaves of leavened bread from the summer wheat harvest alone with the new wine offering.

Brother Arnold

[cindy]

That's Great!

Wave/Offer what you got!

In Yahshua,
Cindy

[BrotherArnold]

Shalom Sister Cindy and All,

Thanks to Sister Cindy’s studying and bringing up this subject, I believe we are getting close to understanding the Temple Scrolls and how these men counted. Below is temple scroll 21 which teaches there is a count of seven Sabbaths PLUS 50 days from the new wine offering unto the new oil offering. Please read it and see if you can agree with the interpretation that I offered, concerning the 99 days.



From my copy of the Dead Sea Scrolls Translated, Second Edition, by Florentino Garcia Martinez, Temple scroll 21 reads,

1[…] a ram and a lamb; and for each 2 clan […] one for all the cl[ans of the twe]lve tribes 3 of Israel. And they shall eat […] before YHWH, 4 the priest shall there first drink and the Lev[ites 5 […] first the Chiefs of battalion […] 6 […] and after them all the people, from the oldest to the smallest, 7 shall go and drink new wine. [They shall not] eat any grape, sour fruit of the vine, [until] 8 [on] this day they atone for the new wine. The children of Israel shall rejoice in YHWH’S presents. 9 Eternal [Law] for their generations in all their villages. They shall rejoice on [this day] 10 [a going] to pour out a libation of juice, a new wine, over the altar of YHWH, year by year. 11 Blank 12 From this day you shall count off seven times seven weeks. 13 [b]There will be forty-nine days [/b]from the seven full weeks up to the day after 14 the seventh Sabbath. You shall count off fifty days and you shall offer new oil from the villages 15 [of the clans of the sons of Is]rael: each one of the clans: half a hin; refined new oil, 16 […] Virgin oil, over the altar, holocaust of the first-fruits before YHWH.

From the above it appears that from the day that the NEW WINE is offered, you are to count seven full weeks which will be 49 days up to the day after the seventh Sabbath and THEN count off 50 days and offer new oil from the villages.

The reason this should be understood or interpreted to count 50 days AFTER the seventh Sabbath before you offer the new oil is because if you offer the new wine in the fourth month when the grape harvest begins, there will be no new oil in 50 days because the new oil is in the eighth and ninth month and no new oil can possibly be offered before then. Counting only 50 days from the fourth month new wine only brings you to the sixth month but counting seven Sabbaths plus 50 days, brings you to the eighth month olive harvest.

If you interpret the above Temple scroll 21 as to count seven Sabbaths from the new wine offering and then number 50 days and then bring the new oil offering, this will line up with the harvests. Does anyone agree or disagree with this interpretation?

Brother Arnold

[kickme]

I was always taught that the new wine meant nonfermented.
Now, how can one get drunk on nonfermented wine?
My bet is everyone is confuzzled, so here's my theory.
The new wine is the wine from the previous year's harvest, not old wine from many years before.
So indeed the new wine could have been in the spring pentacost system if we'd only not analyse things so closely we miss the whole point

[eriqbenel]

I was always taught that the new wine meant nonfermented.
Now, how can one get drunk on nonfermented wine?
My bet is everyone is confuzzled, so here's my theory.
The new wine is the wine from the previous year's harvest, not old wine from many years before.
So indeed the new wine could have been in the spring pentacost system if we'd only not analyse things so closely we miss the whole point

Almost right. In the fourth month, the "new wine" if from the "summer grapes". The old wine is from the fall harvest grapes of the previous year.

[kickme]

but how is the wine from the new summer grapes able to make one drunk with new wine? Does it ferment that fast?

[cindy]

From what I understand it takes 3-4 weeks to make wine.
This was to make atonement for the wine, this was not to win any wine tasting contest, you know.

Cindy

[kickme]

OK, let's look at this logically then. We know that the children of Israel went out of Egypt in the time of barley ripening, but before the wheat was grown, as the wheat wasn't ruined.
Now, how long was it before the land was spied out? Is this recorded? It certainly is recorded that the spies brought grapes out of the land, such a huge cluster it took several men to carry it. What season of year was this, before or after the 50 days after leaving Egypt? Seems to me it had to be after, since traditionally it is taught that Torah was given on Pentacost/last day of counting the omer. Was it that fall, was it planned that they were supposed to enter the land for Feast of Tabernacles that fall and eat of the harvest of the land that they didn't plant?

[cindy]

It takes some effort to go over the timing of events, for me anyway.

It's up to everyone to "study themselves approved", but maybe someone else has gone through that part of the Exodus.

[cindy]

Brother Arnold,

I can see what you are saying about the timing of New Oil.

If you do not look at the wording as repeating the same time ...

seven times seven days
forty-nine days
seven complete weeks-until day after the seventh Sabbath
count out fifty days

you would have 49+49+50+50

If you use the same methodology for ...

Lev 23:15
And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:

Lev 23:16
Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.

Then you completely bypass the Sivan 8-15 time frame.

1) Are you considering the Sivan dates of no value in the Feast schedule?
2) The date for New Oil would be past Tabernacles of which everything had to be atoned for by then, including the people
on Yom Kippur. How do you reconcile this with your time frames?

Thanks,
Cindy

[cindy]

Something has just struck me today.

I want to share it.

When I was reading the DSS, specifically the part concerning Firstfruits of Wheat, the last sentence states...

"This is a pilgrimage Feast of Weeks, a feast of firstfruits established as a memorial forever."

It does not say this for the Feast of New Wine or New Oil.

I was wondering why would those who were present for the New Wine Feast be there at all since it was NOT a pilgrimage.

Then I reread Acts 2.

The scene was in the Temple and those who experienced it were the DSS writers!!!


Does anyone else here see the connections between those who wrote the scrolls and Acts 2?

Acts 2
1.When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

Strong's mentions that "one accord" means "single purpose" and that "one place" actually means "again."

So, they were in the Temple again.

2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.

"House" I believe was the Temple to offer their first fruits of New Wine.

3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.

Did not Yahusha say to those after he left to tarry in Jerusalem for awhile
Luke 24:49
And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
Why else would we need to know this?

6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. 7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, "Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs--we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God." 12 So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, "Whatever could this mean?"
13 Others mocking said, "They are full of new wine."

Acts 2:41
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.

Also,
Romans 3:2
Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Who is Shaul/Paul talking about? The Rabbis who gave us the Old Testament/Talmuds or the Writers of the DSS?
The New Testament was not even written yet, remember.

I don't believe the group that wrote the Scrolls were the Essenes per se. Now one knows who wrote the Scrolls.
The Qumran Essenes did not like to mingle with outsiders, but there were other groups who were part of the Essenes and who did believe in bringing those outside of the Covenant... in. These were the "Essenes" who broke from Qumran and went to Damascus and Galilee.

"The Essenes are best known today as the inhabitants from Qumran, where the Dead Sea Scrolls were located by Bedouins first in 1947. It is now known that they were closely affiliated with the Hasidim, a sectarian group that included the disciples of Hillel and Menahem the Essene who left for Damascus in 20 BCE."

http://biblesearchers.com/yahshua/beith ... tile.shtml

I am going to verify some of these claims from this webpage so don't hold my feet to the fire if they are bogus.
I do find them very intriguing and pertinent to the discussion.

Am I thinking the DSS are oracles that we should heed with discernment from the Ruach.
Yes!

Cindy

[cindy]

Hello again,

Too, I just wanted to add that the info on the webpage concerning the Essenes is what I wanted to offer as food for thought.

Not the Noachide law stuff, I don't believe in that at all.

Cindy

[kickme]

so then, let's do a lil math:
how many days after Passover did Yahushua walk the earth? I think it's recorded.
and again, how long after his ascention did this mighty wind, otherwise known as mighty breath to the Hebrews, come?

Don't get all confused about who Shaul was talking about, the very verse previous to Rom 3:2 explains who.

[cindy]

From what I read Yahusha walked the earth 40 days and then he told his followers to "tarry in Jerusalem until the Holy Spirit came".

Most people assume this was 10 days later for the Grain Pentecost.
I can say emphatically that is WRONG!
You can believe that. I think the evidence points to the New Wine Pentecost.

My point from Romans 3 is that the "Jew" mentioned was not the Jew I had originally thought, which was the Jew(s) who put together the books in the Septuagint. It was the Jew(s) who penned the DSS and included the books of Enoch and Jubilees and other writings unknown in the Septuagint that were given the "oracles of YHWH".

Now the DSS have everything that the OT does except Esther. So it's not like we have been missing the whole boat.
But, if you read the DSS you know that there is much more than the OT.

I believe the reason Shaul/Paul went to Damascus was to apprehend a large group of followers of The Way who were "Essenes" that broke from Qumran BCE and were followers originally of Menahem the Essene and Hillel Pharisees who left after the massacre in 20 BCE.

It was definitely a teaching center because he spent three years there before even going back to Jerusalem.

I'm saying there is evidence of a connection. It is not a new idea, but the New Wine Pentecost I have not seen connected to Acts 2 anywhere in DSS commentaries.

Anyone else?

Cindy