Prophet Joel and date of True Pentecost

[cindy]

I want to say a special thanks to Abba YHWH for helping me find this information.

He knows I have been digging hard for the answer.

Todah b'YHWH,

Cindy

[chuckbaldwin]

Hi Cindy,

That was very interesting info from the DSS. Also, very puzzling. While each segment you presented agrees with the commonly understood rendering of Lev.23:15-16 as a single 50-day (or 7 Sabbaths + 1 day) count, it proceeds to repeat it 2 more times, ending 1 week before Trumpets (7/1).

Were these extra counts deleted from the original Scriptures? If so, when & why were they deleted? Or were they later additions? If so, do we wan't to emulate those who added stuff to YHWH's word?

Either way, it appears to be a significant discovery, which bears more investigation.

[cindy]

Hi Chuck,

The only thing that comes to mind is

Jeremiah 8:8
"How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made {it} into a lie.

I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking the DSS were not discovered out of happen-stance but ...
Psalm 85:11
Truth shall spring out of the earth; and righteousness shall look down from heaven.

More tomorrow,
Good Night All,

Cindy

[BrotherArnold]

Shalom Everyone,

I believe I have found the answer to our questions.

It is in the Dead Sea Scrolls.
The Temple Scrolls.

An excellent example of these equally spaced festival
days (very formally spaced seven-weeks apart) is recited
on the Temple Scroll, as follows -

1. "..You shall count--seven complete Sabbaths from
the day of your bringing the sheaf of [the wave
offering. You shall c]ount until the morrow of
the seventh Sabbath. You shall count [fifty]
days. You shall bring a new grain-offering...it
is the feast of Weeks and the feast of
Firstfruits, an eterna[l] memorial...
2. You [shall count] seven weeks from the day
when you bring the new grain-offering... seven
full Sabbaths [shall elapse un]til you have
counted fifty days to the morrow of the seventh
Sabbath. [You] shall [bring] new wine for a
drink-offering...
3. [You sha]ll count from that day [for the new
wine offering] seven weeks, seven times (seven
days), forty-nine days; there shall be seven
full Sabbaths; until the morrow of the seventh
Sabbath you shall count fifty days. You shall
then offer new oil…" (From the Temple Scroll--
11QT=11Q19, 20, 4Q365a--XVIII-XXI. The English
translation--as shown--was borrowed from 'The
Complete Dead Sea Scrolls In English', by Geza
Vermes).

A sequence of seven-week festivals can also be
identified from the following scrolls: 4Q325,
4Q326, 4Q327, 4Q394; where English translations
can be found in: 'Dead Sea Scrolls A New
Translation', by Michael Wise, Martin Abegg, Jr.,
and Edward Cook.)

You can read the whole article here.
http://web.archive.org/web/200102121340 ... e2.htm#top

Too, the books listed above can be found in any decent college library.

The New Grain 50th day Pentecost would have happened on Sivan first quarter moon.
The New Wine 50th day Pentecost would have occurred on Av 1 (Acts 2-"They must be filled with new wine").
The New Oil 50th day Pentecost would have occurred on Elul 23 third quarter moon.

I'm not sure if New Moons were counted in the Pentecontad calendar.
There is more to figure out, but we are on the right track



In Yahshua,
Cindy

Shalom Sister Cindy and All,

I have looked at these scrolls before and believe they support numbering 50 days AFTER the seventh Sabbath complete according to Leviticus 23:16 for the following reasons.

Counting 50 days AFTER the seventh Sabbath according to Leviticus 23:16 would bring you to the end of July for a fourth month Pentecost. Then count 50 days from there as temple scroll 19 indicates, brings you to the September Grape harvest where a new wine offering was made and then count another 50 days from there according to temple scroll 21, bring’s you to the October and November Olive harvest.

Notice how all the 50 days line's up with the harvests.

If you were to count 50 days backwards from the Olive harvest, it would bring you to the September Grape harvest and then 50 days backwards to the first fruit wheat harvest, it will be a summer wheat harvest in the fourth month instead of a spring wheat harvest in the third month. To verify these harvests times in ancient Israel click on http://www.wcg.org/lit/law/festivals/harvest.htm

The above count shows conclusive evidence that scroll 18 should be interpreted to count 50 days AFTER the seventh Sabbath because if you count 50 days after the first Sabbath or wave sheaf, the harvests will not line up with Scripture or the Dead Sea Scrolls.

"..You shall count--seven complete Sabbaths from
the day of your bringing the sheaf of [the wave
offering. You shall c]ount until the morrow of
the seventh Sabbath. You shall count [fifty]
days. You shall bring a new grain-offering...it
is the feast of Weeks and the feast of
Firstfruits, an eterna[l] memorial...

Notice that the phrase you shall count 50 days. You shall bring a new meat offering... Comes after the count for the seven sabbaths. Also remember that the translators probably could have done better job had they known the true Pentecost was 50 days after the seventh Sabbath. But even the way it read, I hope you can see the possibility that it could be interpreted in the way but the harvest conclusively proves that it should be interpreted to count the 50 days AFTER the seventh Sabbath complete, same as the Scripture conclusive proves the same thing.

Brother Arnold
PS. I can show you where the other scrolls that you mentioned proves that there were two calendars and scribes were showing where the weekly Sabbath and new moon would fall on the solar only calendar, if you're interested.

_________________
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...

Brother Arnold
See www.lunarsabbath.info

[BrotherArnold]

After taking another look at the Temple Scrolls, it may not conclusively prove anything one way or the other. I will study it some more because this year/08 it will line up with counting 50 days after the seventh Sabbath complete but I don't think it will be the same each year. And I don't know if they always numbered 50 days after the firstfruits of grape harvest to the Olive harvest. We will have to do some more meditating and checking, at least I will.

Brother Arnold

[BrotherArnold]

After taking another look at the Temple Scrolls, it may not conclusively prove anything one way or the other. I will study it some more because this year/08 it will line up with counting 50 days after the seventh Sabbath complete but I don't think it will be the same each year. And I don't know if they always numbered 50 days after the firstfruits of grape harvest to the Olive harvest. We will have to do some more meditating and checking, at least I will. And on top of all this, there are two grape harvest, the early vintage around the fourth month and a general harvest around September and they most likely brought a new wine offering from each harvest, therefore we don't know which one is referred to, at least as my opinion at the moment. I believe these scrolls will line up with the many Scriptures that support counting 50 days after the seventh Sabbath unless the translators guessed at some of the fragments with a traditional mind set.

Brother Arnold

[cindy]

This is something trying to weed through all the writings.

The DSS -New Translation book by Wise et all is one I have and on pages 599+ it describes in detail the dates of these First Fruit offerings and sacrifices thereof. Josephus describes the sacrifices for a Pentecost that very much resembles the New Wine Pentecost - NOT the New Grain Pentecost or the New Oil Pentecost.


Josephus
6. When a week of weeks has passed over after this sacrifice, (which weeks contain forty and nine days,) on the fiftieth day, which is Pentecost, but is called by the Hebrews Asartha, which signifies Pentecost, they bring to God a loaf, made of wheat flour, of two tenth deals, with leaven; and for sacrifices they bring two lambs; and when they have only presented them to God, they are made ready for supper for the priests; nor is it permitted to leave any thing of them till the day following. They also slay three bullocks for a burnt-offering, and two rams; and fourteen lambs, with two kids of the goats, for sins; nor is there anyone of the festivals but in it they offer burnt-offerings; they also allow themselves to rest on every one of them. Accordingly, the law prescribes in them all what kinds they are to sacrifice, and how they are to rest entirely, and must slay sacrifices, in order to feast upon them. (Book III, Antiquities of the Jews)

New Grain has only 7 Lambs
New Oil has 14 rams with 14 lambs

What questions I have now is that on that Pentecost day in Acts 2 obviously many people knew to be in Jerusalem. Was this the Pentecost where men were to come before YHWH in the Temple (the second of three festivals)? If it was then many knew about it and what the DSS has to say was not from some obscure fanatical group in the mountains. It was common knowledge.

Why does not the Mishnah or Talmuds talk about this?
Conspiracy anyone? Blind men's tradition overruling scripture?
I'm feeling a bit deceived like I was when I discovered the falsehoods of christianity.

In Yahusha,
Cindy

[BrotherArnold]

This is something trying to weed through all the writings.

The DSS -New Translation book by Wise et all is one I have and on pages 599+ it describes in detail the dates of these First Fruit offerings and sacrifices thereof. Josephus describes the sacrifices for a Pentecost that very much resembles the New Wine Pentecost - NOT the New Grain Pentecost or the New Oil Pentecost.


Josephus
6. When a week of weeks has passed over after this sacrifice, (which weeks contain forty and nine days,) on the fiftieth day, which is Pentecost, but is called by the Hebrews Asartha, which signifies Pentecost, they bring to God a loaf, made of wheat flour, of two tenth deals, with leaven; and for sacrifices they bring two lambs; and when they have only presented them to God, they are made ready for supper for the priests; nor is it permitted to leave any thing of them till the day following. They also slay three bullocks for a burnt-offering, and two rams; and fourteen lambs, with two kids of the goats, for sins; nor is there anyone of the festivals but in it they offer burnt-offerings; they also allow themselves to rest on every one of them. Accordingly, the law prescribes in them all what kinds they are to sacrifice, and how they are to rest entirely, and must slay sacrifices, in order to feast upon them. (Book III, Antiquities of the Jews)

New Grain has only 7 Lambs
New Oil has 14 rams with 14 lambs

What questions I have now is that on that Pentecost day in Acts 2 obviously many people knew to be in Jerusalem. Was this the Pentecost where men were to come before YHWH in the Temple (the second of three festivals)? If it was then many knew about it and what the DSS has to say was not from some obscure fanatical group in the mountains. It was common knowledge.

Why does not the Mishnah or Talmuds talk about this?
Conspiracy anyone? Blind men's tradition overruling scripture?
I'm feeling a bit deceived like I was when I discovered the falsehoods of christianity.

In Yahusha,
Cindy

Shalom Sister Cindy,

I believe the translators made a mistake in translating this chapter of Josephus because Josephus had just finished speaking about Passover and then continues by saying when a week of weeks have passed over after THIS sacrifice/Passover on the 50th day is Pentecost... I don't make it a habit of saying the translators missed it but as you pointed out something is obviously wrong. Notice also he says A LOAF instead of TWO LOAVES
I believe Josephus was speaking about Pentecost that comes after Passover but the translator obviously messed up for some reason.

Brother Arnold

[BrotherArnold]

Hi Chuck,

The only thing that comes to mind is

Jeremiah 8:8
"How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made {it} into a lie.

I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking the DSS were not discovered out of happen-stance but ...
Psalm 85:11
Truth shall spring out of the earth; and righteousness shall look down from heaven.

More tomorrow,
Good Night All,

Cindy

RESPONSE; Shalom Sister Cindy,

If you go back and read Jeremiah 8:8 it is referring to the wicked saying that the scribes lied. Think of this, if the Scripture is lying, then we would not know what to believe or when they were lying ec. it says the Scripture where writtten by holy men of old. It was the wicked that were saying that the scribes lied, how say ye etc. and when you read on in the same verse, it teaches they were rejecting the Word of YHWH by saying the scribes lied.

Brother Arnold

[BrotherArnold]

After taking another look at the Temple Scrolls, it may not conclusively prove anything one way or the other. I will study it some more because this year/08 it will line up with counting 50 days after the seventh Sabbath complete but I don't think it will be the same each year. And I don't know if they always numbered 50 days after the firstfruits of grape harvest to the Olive harvest. We will have to do some more meditating and checking, at least I will.

Brother Arnold

I thought I might have be mistaken but after more checking I found out I was right all the time. If you try to count it the traditional way, when you number 50 days from the Juli grape harvest to the oil harvest, the Oil will not be there yet because the oil harvest is not until October or November and NOT August and September. I checking back for seven years and believe my evidence is conclusive. They could not have been numbering the three fifties from the wave sheaf because it will not have a first fruit oil offering at the end of the third 50 days but they will if you interpret Leviticus 23:6 as it say's AFTER the seventh Sabbath complete, shall you number 50 days AND THEN bring a new meat offering to the Almighty. i.e. 50 days after the seventh Sabbath brings you to July summer wheat harvest/Pentecost and 50 days from the because re brings you to September major grape harvest with they offered the firstfruits of the wine offering and then 50 days from there brings you to October or November where they offered the first fruit of the oil offering. It just will not work the other way with the traditional Pentecost count.

This Historical evidence should solve the Pentecost debate because not only do we have Aaron declaring
a Chag at this time and Philo, but we now have conclusive evidence that the men that wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls
observed a later Pentecost. This is not something that you cannot check out real easy and those that do not checking it should not say anything until they do. I could be wrong but I don't think so and until someone show's how they could bring a new oil offering when the harvest of the Olive's is not until October or November.

Brother Arnold

[cindy]

Good Morning Brother Arnold,

I read closer the DSS version of the New Wine Pentecost sacrifices and the same amount of grain is used as described by Josephus. It does not mention how many loaves were to be made. But, it does call it "bread of First Fruits" and this is to be UNleavened.

They also mention this is an eternal statute., generation after generation.
Now you can say one thing about the DSS writers, they were serious about there faith. I can't imagine they would "add to the scriptures" what was not there.

Also, they (the Essenes) did believe the Scriptures had been altered by the scribes.
The WORD has been altered by the scribes of the Older Testaments and the New. Just compare the Onkelos Targum to any translation Bible. It's like night and day in many verses. Look at the NT. Shlomo Pines wrote about a document that was discovered written by a Muslim scholar in the 6th century of which he borrowed heavily from believers living "underground" at that time. He mentions specifically that the original writings were hunted down and destroyed and those holding them were murdered. A number of apocryphal books were not included in the Roman Catholic version of Scripture because there was Too Much Law in them. Likewise the Rabbis did not include writings that had Too Much Messiah in them.

I had an acquaintance who told me once that these things are "hidden" not from you, but for You.
The DSS is here to help in our understanding and thus far have been remarkable.

Cindy

[cindy]

Brother Arnold,

The DSS says that the New Oil Pentecost was on the 22nd day of the sixth month (Elul).
Page 602-603 DSS-New Translation, Wise and Abegg, and Cook.

After this one day festival was the Festival of Wood Offering that lasted a week right up to Tishri 1.

Cindy

[BrotherArnold]

Good Morning Brother Arnold,

I read closer the DSS version of the New Wine Pentecost sacrifices and the same amount of grain is used as described by Josephus. It does not mention how many loaves were to be made. But, it does call it "bread of First Fruits" and this is to be UNleavened.

They also mention this is an eternal statute., generation after generation.
Now you can say one thing about the DSS writers, they were serious about there faith. I can't imagine they would "add to the scriptures" what was not there.

Also, they (the Essenes) did believe the Scriptures had been altered by the scribes.
The WORD has been altered by the scribes of the Older Testaments and the New. Just compare the Onkelos Targum to any translation Bible. It's like night and day in many verses. Look at the NT. Shlomo Pines wrote about a document that was discovered written by a Muslim scholar in the 6th century of which he borrowed heavily from believers living "underground" at that time. He mentions specifically that the original writings were hunted down and destroyed and those holding them were murdered. A number of apocryphal books were not included in the Roman Catholic version of Scripture because there was Too Much Law in them. Likewise the Rabbis did not include writings that had Too Much Messiah in them.

I had an acquaintance who told me once that these things are "hidden" not from you, but for You.
The DSS is here to help in our understanding and thus far have been remarkable.

Cindy

Shalom Sister Cindy,

You wrote,


I read closer the DSS version of the New Wine Pentecost sacrifices and the same amount of grain is used as described by Josephus. It does not mention how many loaves were to be made. But, it does call it "bread of First Fruits" and this is to be UNleavened.

RESPONSE; it does mention a single loaf in both our translations. You might want to take another look where he says, Josephus
6. When a week of weeks has passed over after this sacrifice, (which weeks contain forty and nine days,) on the fiftieth day, which is Pentecost, but is called by the Hebrews Asartha, which signifies Pentecost, they bring to God A LOAF, made of wheat flour, of two tenth deals, with leaven; this was taken from your post and my translation agrees with this one.

You wrote,

They also mention this is an eternal statute., generation after generation.
Now you can say one thing about the DSS writers, they were serious about there faith. I can't imagine they would "add to the scriptures" what was not there.

RESPONSE; we are in total agreement that the writers of the scrolls were serious about their faith etc. and I believe we will also be in total agreement that the translators may have messed up, not the writers of the scrolls. Temple scroll 21 teaches to number 50 days after the new wine offering of a grape harvest and then bring a new oil offering. This has to be speaking of the seventh month/September grape harvest instead of the fourth month grape harvest because they will not be a new oil offering 50 days after the Winter wheat Pentecost will not be ready because the olive harvest is in October and November not August and September.
You wrote,

Also, they (the Essenes) did believe the Scriptures had been altered by the scribes.
The WORD has been altered by the scribes of the Older Testaments and the New. Just compare the Onkelos Targum to any translation Bible. It's like night and day in many verses.

RESPONSE; I believe scribes have altered the original text but the scribes of the holy men of old did not Alter the Word or else we would not know what to believe. If

Look at the NT. Shlomo Pines wrote about a document that was discovered written by a Muslim scholar in the 6th century of which he borrowed heavily from believers living "underground" at that time. He mentions specifically that the original writings were hunted down and destroyed and those holding them were murdered. A number of apocryphal books were not included in the Roman Catholic version of Scripture because there was Too Much Law in them. Likewise the Rabbis did not include writings that had Too Much Messiah in them.

I had an acquaintance who told me once that these things are "hidden" not from you, but for You.
The DSS is here to help in our understanding and thus far have been remarkable.

Cindy

RESPONSE; that prove my point that the original scribes did not lie but it was later scribes and even scribes today that are altering the Holy Words if not in writing, in meaning.

Brother Arnold

[BrotherArnold]

Shalom All,

It appears that the translation I have, has certain advantages over the Wise Translation but I was going to order the other also and found the following at http://biblical-studies.ca/dss/dss_guide.html

English Translations
There are a number of excellent translations of the Dead Sea Scrolls available in English. Some translations are more geared to students and scholars, while others are more accessible to a wider audience. Note that all of these with one exception (The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible) are translations of the non-biblical manuscripts from Qumran.

Florentino García Martínez, The Dead Sea Scrolls Translated: The Qumran Texts in English (2nd edition; W.G.E. Watson, translator; Brill/Eerdmans, 1996). This translation is geared more for students as it includes full texts where there are multiple copies or fragments of a manuscript. It also includes line numbers and represents the actual state of preservation of the scrolls with gaps, insertions, corrections, reconstructions, etc., indicated. While this does make the translation less readable, it also gives the English reader a clear idea of the fragmentary nature of many of the scrolls. This translation is available in both hardcover from Brill and a much more affordable paperback from Eerdmans. (Make sure to purchase the second edition, as the first edition contained many errors)


Buy Brill hardcover from Amazon.ca | Amazon.com
Buy Eerdmans paperback from Amazon.ca | Amazon.com
Michael O. Wise, Martin G. Abegg, Jr., and Edward Cook, The Dead Sea Scrolls: A New Translation (1st edition; HarperCollins, 1996). This is perhaps the most readable translation of the Scrolls available. It includes a thorough introduction, helpful commentary on the scrolls, as well as editorial comments within the translations. One shortcoming it has is that it does not distinguish between where one manuscript and/or fragment of a scroll begins and another ends. In this respect, The Dead Sea Scrolls Translated is superior. (Martin Abegg has indicated to me that a second edition is in preparation; you may want to wait until it is published). It comes in hardcover and paperback: (I have the second edition)

Brother Arnold

[cindy]

Hello Everyone,

I can see what your point is Brother Arnold. I think we are misunderstanding the Festivals and what they are for.

From my understanding the Wave Sheaf was to thank the Father for the Barley and to give a good crop.
The Grain Pentecost was to thank the Father for the entire Barley Harvest and or Spelt or whatever was finished for that season.

When I read in Exodus and Numbers I see no Indication this was for Wheat only.
I see wheat as being a later development when fall wheat was being planted.

Exodus 34:22
And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.

I read "wheat" as being one of the crops you are to give thanks for during a Pentecost, not necessarily the second Pentecost.
From what I gather from the DSS the second Pentecost of new Wine did include a First Fruits of wheat as well.

The Bottom line is I don't think it matters what type grain was ripe or when, JUST OFFER it and give Thanks.
Over time as the Israelites grew better grain varieties would they NOT OFFER it if it was ready by the New Grain Pentecost?
Or on the other hand if they had a variety of grain that ripened late (sweet corn) would they not offer it during the New Oil Pentecost? Maybe some soybeans on Tabernacles?

You get my point?
We are getting hung up on when the "fruits" ripened when it does not matter. There were three Main Pentecosts for the writers of the DSS and that is what they offered.

The queston now is what does the Father want us to understand and do about this?

The intention of giving thanks and realizing that all belongs to YHWH is what matters.

I for one will do more study and incorporate the Festival of New Wine and New Oil even though I have none to offer.
I will offer something and give thanks. I'm excited to think that like the people in Acts 2 who where at the Temple for the New Wine Festival and received a special annointing maybe that is what is in store for Us?

Lastly, your insistence that oil was harvested in October not incorrect. The point of the Festival is to give thanks and by
Elul 22/23 there had to be some oil harvested by the writers of the DSS to offer thanks for.

Also, Tabernacles was only three weeks away of which something of all "fruits of the land" were offered for thanksgiving.

Deut 16:10

And thou shalt keep the feast of weeks unto the LORD thy God with a tribute of a freewill offering of thine hand, which thou shalt give [unto the LORD thy God], according as the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:

This is a commandment and I am feeling blessed the Father has made it known to me in the way it was intended.
HalleluYah!



Cindy