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Prophet Joel and date of True Pentecost

For the open discussion of all calendar related issues.

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chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 28 May 2008, 20:00

cindy wrote:What years are you thinking, Chuck?
If the Mayans are right, the Trib will start at the 2nd Passover (2/14) of next year...
Spring 2009 - spring 2010 = 1st year
Spring 2010 - spring 2011 = 2nd year
Spring 2011 - spring 2012 = 3rd year
Spring 2012 - fall 2012 = last half-year & end of Mayan calendar, and restoration of year starting in the fall.

If Joey is right, it will start in 2033 (2001 + ( 4*28 ) - 3.5).

I say (possibly), it will start 45+30 days after "you see Jerusalem compassed with armies", which is 30 days after "you see the Abomination of Desolation standing in the Holy Place".

Remember, you said you wouldn't hold me to that. :D
Chuck Baldwin
By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

cindy
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Postby cindy » 29 May 2008, 05:19

That's right! :D

We are not the types to tell everyone to sell all their worldly goods and go live in a cave in Montana.

We know the best way to survive those times is to be in a right relationship with YHWH.
It doesn't matter if you are in a cave or not, although being prepared in some fashion is good.

My thinking is that we will not see a stone Temple rebuilt for the Trib, but the Wilderness Tabernacle will be found totally intact and that will create a religious fervor in Israel unseen before and that is what will be used to start the sacrifices again. It will be placed on the Mount near the Western Wall on "Israeli soil".
The Moslems will still have the mosque on the Mount and towards The End the anti-moschiach will cross over to the Tabernacle to defile it.

Vendyl Jones and others have found the Anointing Oil/Temple incense and are trying to figure out the Copper Scroll for the other Temple items.
It's only a matter of YHWH's timing I believe.

My timeline just consists of what a generation is and starts when Israel captured the Mount in 1967....
Generation in Matt 24 is 60 years. This is why I think so.
60 years is a generation because while in the desert YHWH forgave anyone 20 years and younger for the sin of
the Golden Calf and the wandered 40 years. Technically a generation is 59 years and 264 some days.
Psalm 90:10The length of our days is seventy years-- or eighty, if we have the strength; yet their span is but trouble and sorrow, for they quickly pass, and we fly away.If you take away how old a person is when they can procreate (10-12 years) then we are in the ball park.
16:15Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; 60 *1000 generations = 6000 years and start of Millenial Kingdom

When God divorced the House of Israel and cast them away about 722 BCE, all the children afterward born in the 10 tribes became spiritually illegitimate. The Torah states that illegitimate children are banned from being part of the assembly (“church”) of YHVH for a period of TEN generations:
DEUTERONOMY 23:2 "No one of illegitimate birth shall enter the assembly of the LORD; none of his descendants, even to the tenth generation, shall enter the assembly of the LORD." (NASU) In the Bible, a generation is defined as being 70 years (Psalm 90:10). A small number from the northern kingdom were likely assimilated into the House of Judah before and during the conquest of Samaria. But according to the Torah, no descendant of the northern kingdom of Samaria afterward would have been eligible to be part of God's people for at least 700 years after God divorced their mother, the House of Israel

Speaking of the "cycles" of life.
There are 360 degrees in a circle and 6 millennium ( a day to YHWH is like a thousand years) *60 years =360

And
Jubilee cycles...
40 (years in desert/days Yahusha in desert- to prepare the bride & groom)* 50 (jubilees)= 2000 years from when Yahshua read Isaiah 53 in the synagogue, 28-29 CE thereabouts.

And
Eclipse data...
The “sun will be darkened” on June 12, 2029
and the “moon will turn to blood” on June 26, 2029
Joel 2:31
Rev 6:12

So I'm thinking somewhere between 2026 and 2030 when events will heat up in one way or another.


Cindy

chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 29 May 2008, 09:44

Hi Cindy,

I found your post interesting, and have no major problem with your timelines. There were a few things you mentioned in passing, that could actually be expanded into additional topics, if anyone has the interest (+ nerve) to do so. :)

You mentioned Vendyl Jones. I think i read somewhere that he's the basis for the famous "Indiana Jones" movies. Is that correct? I just saw the latest 1 and it was really good. I noticed that the middle of his 1st name is "endy", and the nickname for Indianapolis is "Indy". Coincidence?

Concerning Deut.23:2, while your application may be valid, i believe that the physical command is referring specifically to race-mixing or miscegenation as opposed to simply being born out of wedlock. Similarly, the spiritual command would apply to the way the House of Israel has mixed the true religion of YAHWEH with various false religions.

Another point about YAHWEH's 'divorce' from Israel is that it would only be finalized IF & when Israel 'married' another -- Deut.24:1-4, which never happened. Israel ONLY 'played the harlot' (as if that wasn't bad enough); and all of her 'lovers' rejected her (see Hos.5:7 + context). So, in Jer.3:8, even though YAHWEH says that He 'put her away and gave her a bill of divorce', just a few verses later in 3:14, He can legally say that He is still 'married' to her, and plead with her to return.

One final item, most people assume that the Jubilee cycle is 50years, and frankly, the Bible alone isn't explicit about this. But the Book of Jubilees, which by its very name presumes to be the authority on what constitutes a Jubilee, consistently uses a 49-year Jubilee cycle. This means that the Jubilee YEAR is not only the 50th year after 7 Sabbath years, but is is also the 1st year of the next CYCLE. I'm not arguing pro or con; that's just what i found when reading the Book of Jubilees.
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

kickme
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Postby kickme » 29 May 2008, 13:10

from what I hear, the sacrifices have already been restored in Israel. It's just not been blabbed about much because it would be highly offensive to so many how believe sacrifices have been abolished

chosen
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Postby chosen » 29 May 2008, 13:24

can you post a link to that, please, gene?

shalom,

chosen

kickme
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Postby kickme » 29 May 2008, 16:22

it wasn't a link, Snoop_D has that information, not sure where or how he knows.

cindy
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Postby cindy » 30 May 2008, 04:59

Hello All,

Yes, the Vendyl Jones/Indiana Jones connection has been out there. Everyone denies any connection. I think too much of a coincidence and not sure why the denial other than to prevent possible lawsuits.

Chuck wrote
Another point about YAHWEH's 'divorce' from Israel is that it would only be finalized IF & when Israel 'married' another -- Deut.24:1-4, which never happened. Israel ONLY 'played the harlot' (as if that wasn't bad enough); and all of her 'lovers' rejected her (see Hos.5:7 + context). So, in Jer.3:8, even though YAHWEH says that He 'put her away and gave her a bill of divorce', just a few verses later in 3:14, He can legally say that He is still 'married' to her, and plead with her to return.


Yes, YHWH wants his bride to return, but she cannot unless she is Born Again thru the blood of Moschiach.
The only way for the bride to re-marry YHWH is if She Dies and becomes a New Creature.
2 Corinthians 5
Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Is Paul talking to Pagans who never knew YHWH. How can someone be "reconciled" if they never knew YHWH in the first place? Paul is talking to descendants of the Northern Kingdom who according to the promise to Abraham have become so numerous (like the stars in the sky) and spread out all over the "world".

This is all part of the future Marriage Supper of the Lamb.
The Two Houses come together under Moschiach and become One.
Not Jew or Greek nor female or male, but eventually ALL in All.

The first marriage covenant was broken and Northern Israel was divorced, Judah was severely punished, but not divorced. The New Covenant is a New Marriage contract sealed in Messiah's blood and we will celebrate the feast at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

Cindy

chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 30 May 2008, 06:09

cindy wrote:Yes, YHWH wants his bride to return, but she cannot unless she is Born Again thru the blood of Moschiach....
I have some responses and additional thoughts, but not to get off the topic of this thread, i am creating a new topic: "Whom did/will YHWH & Yahshua 'Marry'?".
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

wstruse
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Postby wstruse » 30 May 2008, 19:17

I also believe that some important cycles end in the 2027-2030 time frame. I have been working on an overview of how I see it. The image is quite large so I will post it in a separate thread. The Jubilees cycles in the image are based on a synchronized Sabbath year cycle as Chuck described. The image will be posted under the topic Creation > 144th Jubilee. You can also veiw the image here: http://www.countdowntothemessiah.com/Chronology/Countdown_to_the_Messiah_Chronology/Creation_To_The_144th_Jubilee.gif


Regards,
Wstruse

BrotherArnold
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Postby BrotherArnold » 31 May 2008, 12:40

The Spring Wheat Harvest Creates a Huge Dilemma for Jewish Rabbis.

There's none so blind as he whom the Almighty has blinded and he that refuses to see.

Shalom All,
the following will show just how blind some people are and show more evidence that the Pentecost NEW meat offering had to be from the SPRING WHEAT which is harvested in the summer, 50 days AFTER the seventh Sabbath, Leviticus 23:16.
We all know or should know that Leviticus 23 teaches a NEW meat offering NOT an OLD one, is to be brought to the Almighty from the wheat harvest. The blinded Jews bring an OLD meat offering for the traditional Pentecost as you will see shortly.

The Rabbis teach that SPRING WHEAT that is planted in the spring and reaped four months later, in the summer, can not be eaten until the following year because it is considered Chodosh/NEW grain/meat. They believe that anything planted during or after Passover and has not took root, cannot be eaten until after next Passover wave sheaf has been waived. They quote from the Mishnah to support their belief, as the following web sites will show. According to this belief, the traditional Pentecost winter wheat cannot fit the requirements of a NEW meat offering because it is considered OLD grain/meat because it is planted in the fall, and took root before Passover. Therefore there's no way they can have a NEW meat offering of the wheat unless there EYES are opened and they acknowledge the summer wheat harvest/Pentecost.

Even if they planted Winter wheat, it would not be considered a NEW grain/meat offering because it was planted before the Vernal Equinox and according to the Mishnah etc. the NEW grain/meat comes after Passover, in the summertime and that is exactly what the Scripture calls for but they are too blind to see because of their tradition etc.

The following definitions and web sites prove what I'm saying.

Chodosh — the new crop of grain (spring wheat). Originally, chodosh was forbidden by the Torah until after Pesach (when it is then called yoshon, the old crop). Its status today outside of Israel is open to various opinions. Actual chodosh grain is prohibited even outside of Israel, but with the double doubt as to whether a product is made from winter or spring wheat and whether that spring wheat is from this year’s crop or last year’s, many authorities are lenient outside of Israel. All kashrus agencies require yoshon status for products of Israel. See yoshon. Also, http://www.kashrusmagazine.com/magazine.php?do=133

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshon we read,

In Judaism, Yoshon (Hebrew: ישן ; "old [grain]") is a concept within Kashrut (the Jewish dietary regulations), based on the Biblical requirement not to eat any chodosh— grain of the new year (or products made from it) prior to the annual Omer offering on 16th Nisan.[1]
In classical Rabbinic Judaism, this requirement was considered restricted to the five classical grains of Judaism - wheat, barley, oats, spelt, and rye; any of these grains that are too young to pass the requirement (and products made from them) are referred to in Judaism as Chodosh, meaning "new [grain]." Additionally, the Rabbinic interpretation requires grain to have taken root prior to the omer offering for it to become permitted; therefore, grains planted after Passover could only be consumed the following year.
Following the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 C.E., the omer offering was no longer offered. Since this time, the new grain has been deemed permissible following the date on which the offering was brought in ancient times.
The applicability of the chodosh rules to grain grown outside the Land of Israel is a subject of debate among halakhic authorities. Rabbi Moses Isserles forbids it, while Rabbi Yoel Sirkis felt it is permissible.[2] Additionally, the manner in which various foods have historically been available has meant that Jewish populations would need to risk starvation to pursue stringent compliance with this aspect of Kashrut. These two factors led to a situation in which observation of the yoshon regulation was relatively limited until very recently (at least in the Ashkenazic community).
In modern times, particularly in Developed Nations, food is much more readily available than it historically had been, and grain is in sufficient abundance that Orthodox Jews have become more interested in following yoshon requirements. Modern packaging practices, which in some nations involve the stamping of production dates on every package, often allow individuals to determine whether food is definitely yoshon; packaging organisations sometimes add Kashrut information to the packaging, and sometimes include in this information whether the product is known to be yoshon.

Hope someone can understand what I'm saying and possibly add to it.
See also http://www.tzemachdovid.org/thepractica ... emor.shtml and http://www.fao.org/nr/water/cropinfo_wheat.html
And http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-yoshon-old_new.htm for full details. And at http://www.ou.org/kosher/daf/advanced/yoshen.htm and http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-yoshon-prepchodosh.htm

Jewish Rabbis are discussing the problem and referring to the Mishnah etc. to prove that everything harvested after Passover is NEW meat/grain unless it was planted before Passover and then it is OLD grain/meat and I believe the Scripture teaches it is supposed to be A NEW MEAT OFFERING. Had they not brought in another wheat harvest, they would not be having this dilemma.

Also remember that Lamentation 2:6 teaches that He would cause BOTH the Sabbaths AND feast days to be forgotten in Zion, and that is exactly what has happened.

Brother Arnold

ps. From the following we see that Philo also may have understood new produce to be from grains sown in that year around Passover and after.
THE SPECIAL LAWS TWO XXX (176)
(179)The feast which takes place on the basis of the number fifty has received the name “the feast of the first produce” since during the feast it is customary to offer two leavened loaves made from wheat as the first fruit of grain, the best food. It is named “the feast of the first produce” either because before the annual crop has proceeded to human use, the first produce of the new grain and the first fruit which has appeared are offered as first fruit. (180) For it is just and religiously correct that those who have received the greatest gift from God, the abundance of the most necessary as well as most beneficial and even the sweetest food, should not enjoy it or have any use of it at all before they offer the first fruits to the Supplier. They are giving him nothing since all things and possessions and gifts are his, but through a small symbol demonstrate a thankful and God-loving character to the one who needs no favors but showers continuous and ever-flowing favors.


THE SACRIFICE OF ABLE AND CANE XX (72)
XX. (72) We have now adequately gone through the first article of our accusation against Cain. And the second is of this nature, Why does he bring the first fruits of the fruits of the earth, but not of the first produce? May it not be for the same reason, that he may give the pre-eminence in honour to creation, and may requite God himself with what is the second best? For as there are some persons who place the body before the soul, the slave before the mistress, so also there are persons who honour the creation more than God, though the lawgiver delivered this injunction, that “we should bring the first fruits of the first produce of the earth into the house of God,” and not assign them to ourselves. Philo seems to separate firstfruits and first produce. Not sure what all this means but we do more searching. Perhaps cane did not want to give up the first fruit of wheat harvest.
Philo says, in another quote that,
“This feast is the most publicly celebrated feast and is called “the feast of the first produce,” named etymologically from the circumstance that the first of the produce, the first fruits, are dedicated at that time.
Why would not the barley be counted as first fruits??? Could it be because barley was sown and took root before the NEW year began and therefore could not be called a new grain/meat offering but is called wave sheaf instead???
Another quote says,
“and this festival, being that of the first fruits of the corn, has derived its name of pentecost from the number of fifty, (penteµkostos). And on it it is the custom to offer up two leavened loaves made of wheat, as a first fruit of the best kind of food made of corn; either because, before the fruit of the year is converted to the use of man, the first produce of the new crop, the first gathered corn that appears is offered as a first fruit, in order that by an insignificant emblem the people may display their grateful disposition;
The term “fruit of the year” could be referring to the grain that took root AFTER the agricultural year began around Passover and produced a fruit of the new grain that summer. The barley would not be fruit of the year/revolution because it was planted in the old year. Year is a revolution in Exodus 12 were He told Moses that this is the first month/moon of the year/revolution.
Last edited by BrotherArnold on 01 Jun 2008, 09:29, edited 2 times in total.
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...

Brother Arnold
See www.lunarsabbath.info

BrotherArnold
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Postby BrotherArnold » 01 Jun 2008, 09:17

Comparing Exodus 23:16 with Leviticus 23:16, we find that the Israelites would have understood exactly what they were to do when they entered the land. They were to enter the land, reap the harvest thereof, count seven Sabbaths, number 50 days, and bring a new meat offering from their labor which they sowed in the field.

They were commanded to do these things including bring a new meat offering from their labor that they sowed in the field and having such a command upon them, it would have been unwise to say the least, for them not to have sown the wheat in the first month when they came into the land so they could fulfill the command to bring a new meat offering from THEIR LABOR that THEY SOWED in the field. The first offering was to be from the harvest thereof which would have been barley, but the SECOND offering was to be from THEIR LABOR that THEY SOWED in the field. This makes the traditional Pentecost IMPOSSIBLE.
It is impossible to count seven Sabbaths and then number ONE DAY instead of 50 days, and bringing a new meat offering from seeds that they had sown in the first month when they came into the land. This alone proves that Leviticus 23:16 was interpreted by Joshua and the ancient Israelites to number 50 days AFTER the seventh Sabbath.

Even if there was Winter wheat already in the land when they arrived, they could not have scripturally used it because the instructions of the firstfruits were clearly to be FROM THEIR LABOR that THEY SOWED IN THE FIELD and if they sowed the wheat in the first month when they came into the land they could have counted seven Sabbaths complete, then number 50 days, and then they could have brought a new meat offering from their labor that they sowed in the field because it would have time to ripen. But as I said before, it is agriculturally impossible for them to have had a new meat offering in 50 days from their labor which they sowed in the field. Nature will not allow it because it takes TWICE that long.

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 01 Jun 2008, 11:08

Hi Arnold,

My post self-destructed due to using "Preview" and forgetting to "Submit", so here's the shorter version. I give you credit for coming up with an ALMOST ironclad new argument that i hadn't heard before. But i have to ask -- When did they have all this time for sowing in the fields (which they didn't even possess yet), while they were busy conquering the land?

They surely didn't have time to sow crops before the march around Jericho, which occurred in the 1st 7 days of the 2nd month (per Jasher 88:14), after they had kept the Passover (Josh.5:10). This means that a harvest that (allegedly) takes "4 months" to ripen (IF planted on Abib 1), is now down to 3 months, minus the 7 day march, which gives it only 2 months + 23 days.

I frankly don't think they did any planting until the [Biblical] "winter" (aka "seedtime" - Gen.8:22) of that year. The phrase "when you come into the land" doesn't necessarily have to include the 1st year -- it refers to instructions that are to be carried out EVERY year, AFTER the land has been possessed.

So regardless of which way we count the days, there was simply no way that they would've been able to observe a strictly "legal" Pentecost in that 1st year.
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

kickme
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Postby kickme » 01 Jun 2008, 12:50

so, I'd like a little summary, please
if the barley was abib, does that not mean barely ripe? so was not the counting of the omer for barley, not wheat? so where's the problem, and who says it HAS to be wheat.
Is not the feast of Tabernacles the feast where they were to bring their offerings and tithes for the summer increase? It is specifically mentioned that if the way is too far, they can bind money up in their hand and buy whatever their heart desires, whether it's oxen, wine or strong drink.
Deu 14:25 then you shall give it in silver, and shall take the silver in your hand and go to the place which Yahweh your Elohim chooses.
Deu 14:26 “And you shall use the silver for whatever your being desires: for cattle or sheep, for wine or strong drink, for whatever your being desires. And you shall eat there before Yahweh your Elohim, and you shall rejoice, you and your household.
I guess it doesn't specifically say which feast in those verses, I'm just assuming again. I don't wish to strain out gnats and swallow camels

chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 01 Jun 2008, 17:47

kickme wrote:so, I'd like a little summary, please
if the barley was abib, does that not mean barely ripe? so was not the counting of the omer for barley, not wheat? so where's the problem, and who says it HAS to be wheat.
Hi Kickme,

I'm not sure whose post you're addressing, but i would say YES, "abib" refers to ripe barley, NOT "green".

The rest of your question, i'm not sure what you're talking about, and WHAT in the world is "the counting of the omer"? The word "omer" is SINGULAR; how do you COUNT a singular item? ONE is ONE, and doesn't need counting. Where in Scripture is there anything about counting an omer (or omers)?
Is not the feast of Tabernacles the feast where they were to bring their offerings and tithes for the summer increase? It is specifically mentioned that if the way is too far, they can bind money up in their hand and buy whatever their heart desires, whether it's oxen, wine or strong drink.
Again, the answer is YES, but i'm not sure what the point of the question was. It might help if you would quote the relevent portions of the post that you're responding to, or maybe state the reason for the question.
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

BrotherArnold
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Postby BrotherArnold » 01 Jun 2008, 18:11

Shalom Brother Chuck,

you wrote,

"I give you credit for coming up with an ALMOST ironclad new argument that i hadn't heard before. But i have to ask -- When did they have all this time for sowing in the fields (which they didn't even possess yet), while they were busy conquering the land?

RESPONSE; I always try to put myself in their place and if I was given the command to enter the land, that was given to me of the Almighty, and reap the harvest thereof and bringing a NEW meat offering seven Sabbaths plus 50 days from MY LABOR which I sowed in the field, I would immediately stake my claim on a plot of around, as soon as I crossed the Jordan.

It would be similar to the California land rush and other land rushes were ever one staked out their claim. If I were in Moses position, I would command the priest to oversee a few thousand laborers, perhaps 50 or a hundred thousand, to sow enough grain to make sure I could fulfill the command. I would have my army and another hundred thousand or so, ever how many it took, to reap the barley harvest while some where sowing the wheat, for future food.

Remember all the people of Jerico had LEFT their FIELDS and were in the city of Jericho shut in, in fear of the Israelites. Perhaps everyone pitched in and they had a community garden and harvest that first year. At any rate the Israelites took possession of their land as soon as there foot touched it, according to Scripture and the book of Jasher which says in chapter 88 verse 2 and 3, “rise up and pass the Jordan to the land which I HAVE GIVEN to the children of Israel, and thou shalt make the children of Israel inherit the land. Every place upon which the sole of your feet shall tread, shall belong to you" etc. they crossed the Jordan on the 10th day of the FIRST month and the land already belong to them according to the Almighty's Words.

They took over houses that they had not built and wells they had not dug, and lands ready to plant. They had no fear of the people that were shut up in the city of Jericho who were destroyed in the first week of the second month. The bottom line is that the Almighty would not tell them to do something that they could not do. They were commanded to sow the land for six years, which would have began when they entered the land in the springtime around the 10th through the 14th and remember they kept the Passover and unleavened bread in the first month without any fear of Jericho. They also circumcised etc. without any fear of the people of Jericho and this is my explanation of how they could have sowed the field in the first month and brought a new meat offering from their labor that they sowed in the field seven sabbaths plus 50 days later according to the commandment of the Almighty. I do not believe they waited until after the fighting men destroyed the city in the second month, to plant, because they were farmers and they had control of the farms and knew they had to eat down the road and therefore they would have planted in the first month because there was no reason for them not to.

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info


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