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What Is The Scriptural Definition for Evening, Sundown, And

For the open discussion of all calendar related issues.

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JMSchattke
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Postby JMSchattke » 26 Feb 2008, 20:19

eriqbenel - go ahead and keep showing us what a scoffer you are.

That's not my translation, that's the translation from the Institute for Scriptural Research. And I just showed the Greek phrases used, which show that the Sabbath was over before dawn the day after.

My contention is that the sabbath would end at sundown. but I further contend that it would not begin until sunup, and the later tradition of starting it at sundown was not the original way to celebrate it.
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Postby eriqbenel » 26 Feb 2008, 20:42

JMSchattke wrote:eriqbenel - go ahead and keep showing us what a scoffer you are.

That's not my translation, that's the translation from the Institute for Scriptural Research. And I just showed the Greek phrases used, which show that the Sabbath was over before dawn the day after.

My contention is that the sabbath would end at sundown. but I further contend that it would not begin until sunup, and the later tradition of starting it at sundown was not the original way to celebrate it.



Sorry Jonathan. But so I don't appear to be "scoffing" you again, I will just ask a simple question, or two... or three...

How in the world can the Sabbath BEGIN at Sun Up and END at Sun Down?

Is the Sabbath Day, the seventh day of the week, ONLY a 12 hour period? Is not a day 24-hours?

When did this "later tradition" begin?

The translation is really secondary to this discussion. What is primary is the CONTEXT and interpretation, which difference you don't seem to understand.
Shalom in the name of YHWH,

Eriq

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Re: Morning/evening

Postby principessa-yisraeliana » 27 Feb 2008, 14:40

kathybyers2000 wrote:Something to consider:

Jhn 20:1 ¶ The first [day] of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

And later in the writing in regards to the same day:

Jhn 20:19 ¶ Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you.



What do these verses mean to you, Kathy? Can you explain the timeline and how the dark/evening flows between the two? Thanks!

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Re: What Is The Scriptural Definition for Evening, Sundown,

Postby principessa-yisraeliana » 27 Feb 2008, 14:43

BrotherArnold wrote:Shalom All,

We must find a conclusive scriptural definition of EVENING before we can keep the appointments of YHWH.

Brother Arnold



Brother Arnold, so are you saying that you set apart the Sabbath beginning at sundown...from evening to evening? I'm just trying to jump into the stream of this thread and understand the issues more fully. Thanks!

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Re: What Is The Scriptural Definition for Evening, Sundown,

Postby BrotherArnold » 27 Feb 2008, 16:54

principessa-yisraeliana wrote:
BrotherArnold wrote:Shalom All,

We must find a conclusive scriptural definition of EVENING before we can keep the appointments of YHWH.

Brother Arnold



Brother Arnold, so are you saying that you set apart the Sabbath beginning at sundown...from evening to evening? I'm just trying to jump into the stream of this thread and understand the issues more fully. Thanks!



RESPONSE; yes we believe that evening always ends a day at sundown and by default another 24-hour day begins.
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...

Brother Arnold
See www.lunarsabbath.info

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Ereb and Related Words in Hebrew

Postby ErichMatthewJanzen » 28 Feb 2008, 11:45

Shalom, All,

I was talking to Brother Arnold on the phone the other day about the Hebrew word ereb and its related words in Hebrew. It appears when looking at the Hebrew language that the word ereb does have to do with darkness, but this includes the beginning of darkness, i.e. when darkness begins to mix with light. Check out these definitions and let's all put our thoughts into this.

Your friend,
Matthew Janzen
-----

H6148

עָרַב

‛ârab

aw-rab'

A primitive root; to braid, that is, intermix; technically to traffic (as if by barter); also to give or be security (as a kind of exchange):—engage, (inter-) meddle (with), mingle (self), mortgage, occupy, give pledges, be (-come, put in) surety, undertake.
-----

H6149

עָרֵב

‛ârêb

aw-rabe'

A primitive root (rather identical with H6148 through the idea of close association); to be agreeable:—be pleasant (-ing), take pleasure in, be sweet.
-----

H6150

עָרַב

‛ârab

aw-rab'

A primitive root (rather identical with H6148 through the idea of covering with a texture); to grow dusky at sundown:—be darkened, (toward) evening.
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H6151

עֲרַב

‛ărab

ar-ab'

(Chaldee); corresponding to H6148; to commingle:—mingle (self), mix.
-----

H6153

עֶרֶב

‛ereb

eh'-reb

From H6150; dusk:— + day, even (-ing, tide), night.
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H6154

עֶרֶב עֵרֶב

‛êreb ‛ereb

ay'-reb, eh'-reb

The second form used in 1 Kings 10:15 with the article prefixed); from H6148; the web (or transverse threads of cloth); also a mixture, (or mongrel race):—Arabia, mingled people, mixed (multitude), woof.
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H6158

עוֹרֵב עֹרֵב

‛ôrêb ‛ôrêb

o-rabe', o-rabe'

From H6150; a raven (from its dusky hue):—raven.

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Postby JMSchattke » 28 Feb 2008, 13:45

ערב means mingle; what is being mingled depends on the context. It is a mistranslation to speak of it as "night" - yet that is, unfortunately recorded in Strongs. Gen 49:27, Lev 6:20, Job 7:4 are the only places it is translated that way, and translating as "evening" is perfectly acceptable for the first 2, and "dawn" for the last.

Usually, it means the mingling of light and dark at the end of a day; it can also mean the mingling of light and dark at the dawn.
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Postby chosen » 28 Feb 2008, 14:07

H6154
‛êreb ‛ereb
woof.

?????

what??? :lol:

just wondering if this is what it really says/means?

chosen

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Postby eriqbenel » 28 Feb 2008, 14:28

JMSchattke wrote:ערב means mingle; what is being mingled depends on the context. It is a mistranslation to speak of it as "night" - yet that is, unfortunately recorded in Strongs. Gen 49:27, Lev 6:20, Job 7:4 are the only places it is translated that way, and translating as "evening" is perfectly acceptable for the first 2, and "dawn" for the last.

Usually, it means the mingling of light and dark at the end of a day; it can also mean the mingling of light and dark at the dawn.


We'll try to explain this once again for Jonathan's sake.

What is MORE IMPORTANT in Scriptural interpretation than what a word generally means is the CONTEXT in which the word is used. I'll give an example sentence:

"Frank is a nice guy alright, he stole my money and ran off with my wife!"


Now what does "NICE" generally mean? Pleasant, enjoyable; kind, courteous, considerate.... But can that meaning be applied in my sentence? No, because the CONTEXT implies something else.

"ereb" may generally mean "mingled", but in the majority of CONTEXT, it is used to indicate "dark". It is good and right to investigate the meaning of words, but in the process of literary interpretation, leaving out CONTEXT and just going with word definitions is bad practice.

SO, it is NOT a "mistranslation" to speak of it as "night" if the context warrants such.

BY THE WAY, the Strong's isn't a "dictionary", it is a "concordance", showing you how words are "translated". The Strong's doesn't do the translating, it is showing you the renderings after the fact. Also, the vernacular and definitions of words change over time:

"The GAY 90's", was a term that referred to a period of prosperity in the late 19th century. But what does "gay" mean today? Not prosperity, thats for sure.
Shalom in the name of YHWH,



Eriq

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Postby Chayil_Ishshah » 28 Feb 2008, 14:29

chosen wrote:H6154
‛êreb ‛ereb
woof.

?????

what??? :lol:

just wondering if this is what it really says/means?

chosen


Shalom chosen,

Perhaps it's because that's when wolves/dogs howl or bark? :?: :mrgreen:

Not to get sidetracked, but as you know we have the ISR; interestingly, in the back in the glossary it says this:

Between the Evenings : Hebrew idiom which according to the Pharisees means: between the decline of the sun immediately after midday and sunset, that is approximately 3 p.m. in the afternoon - but according to the Sadducees means between the sunset and dark, i.e. twilight.


SO- are they saying that the two sects of HEBREW-SPEAKING groups couldn't agree on what it means?

**sigh**

~dawn

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Postby JMSchattke » 28 Feb 2008, 14:55

Notice, of course, that neither includes nighttime...
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Postby eriqbenel » 28 Feb 2008, 15:03

Between the Evenings : Hebrew idiom which according to the Pharisees means: between the decline of the sun immediately after midday and sunset, that is approximately 3 p.m. in the afternoon - but according to the Sadducees means between the sunset and dark, i.e. twilight.



SO- are they saying that the two sects of HEBREW-SPEAKING groups couldn't agree on what it means?

**sigh**

~dawn



I don't believe that these groups had different meanings for the term. I don't know who first quoted that, but I would be interested to know where they get that information.
:roll:

Anyway... what is meant by "between the evenings" probably changed and varied over time and can be determined by the CONTEXT.

Think about this. If you and I lived 4000 years ago, in a very primitive society. Our only goals are food, sex and war. With limited government leadership or control, every man pretty much looked out for himself and his own family.

In this environment, there is no need for detailed and pinpointed periods of time. Where do we have to be? What deadlines would we have to meet? We know "night" and "daylight" and Winter and Summer and that's about all that really matters.

Now as time goes on and governments get more sophisticated and industry increases and currency and commerce enters into the picture there become a need to get a better grip on "time".

"Time" starts to become "money". Money is the difference between life and death, starvation and prosperity. Now we have "places to go and people to see"!

"Between the evenings" has a more significant and sophisticated meaning than it did 4000, 3000, 2000 years ago. During Messiah day, the time had become divided into "hours". 3rd hour, 6th hour, 9th hour, etc... Today we have a watch with THREE hands that help us pinpoint time to the SECOND!


"Between the evenings" in the Tanak probably began as sometime "between" dark and dark, covering a whole day. Later, it was narrowed down to right before dark or right before daylight. In Messiah's day, "between the evenings" was pinpointed by the HOUR of the day.

Today, we can pinpoint and process "twilight", and "afternoon" down the the nano-second, including longitude and latitude degree, and tilt of the earth's axis!

What I keep saying, and I hope some of you will grasp, is that we have to determine what the term meant to the people AT THE TIME. Not what it means by Strong's or contemporary understanding.
Shalom in the name of YHWH,



Eriq

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Postby JMSchattke » 28 Feb 2008, 15:12

Eriq, you are a piece of work.

The "between the evenings" reference is from Ex 13; it refers to when to slaughter the lamb. The lamb, that if it's blood wasn't on the lintels of your doorway, meant every firstborn in the house would die - during the night.

You can bet that the Israelites knew exactly what time it meant, because that same lamb - killed between the evenings - was roasted immediately and to be eaten - all of it - before morning. During that same night.

Ex 13 is very clear. ערב leaves no wiggle room. You seem to just refuse to admit you are wrong.
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Postby BrotherArnold » 28 Feb 2008, 15:47

JMSchattke wrote:Eriq, you are a piece of work.

The "between the evenings" reference is from Ex 13; it refers to when to slaughter the lamb. The lamb, that if it's blood wasn't on the lintels of your doorway, meant every firstborn in the house would die - during the night.

You can bet that the Israelites knew exactly what time it meant, because that same lamb - killed between the evenings - was roasted immediately and to be eaten - all of it - before morning. During that same night.

Ex 13 is very clear. ערב leaves no wiggle room. You seem to just refuse to admit you are wrong.


RESPONSE; shalom Brother JMSchattke, Brother Eric is correct in saying that between the evenings is between the darks. The Scripture definition of evening is dark according to Genesis and ever where else it is used, therefore between the evenings is between the darks of a 24-hour day. I challenge anyone to find one place in Scripture where evening is not dark or making reference of between the darks. People try to tell me that evening means this or that but can never find their definition in Scripture. Can you?

I know to Strong's concordance uses the Word dusk, night, evening, etc. but do we know what dusk meant to Strong's back then? I believe Strong's understood dusk as being dark because no where in the Scripture is dusk the way we understand it today. I showed where the Septuagint even translated it as night evening or dark. Dusk the way we understand it today is not dark but backthen it was. Example as the gates BEGAN to grow dark BEFORE the Sabbath. Began to grow dark would be dusk as we understand it today but dark is when the Sabbath began.
By the way where you aware that the Scripture conclusive proof that there is a between the evening before sunrise as well as a between the evening at the going down of the sun? If not this may be where the confusion comes in.

I will await your conclusive Scripture where evening is not dark.

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

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Postby chuckbaldwin » 28 Feb 2008, 17:46

BrotherArnold wrote:I will await your conclusive Scripture where evening is not dark.
Hi Arnold,

In order to answer the question in YOUR language, i would need to know YOUR definition of "dark". The places in Scripture where "evening" appears to be "defined", use terms that have been debated, so there is no universally accepted definition of "evening".

In most, if not all of the Scriptures that USE (as opposed to DEFINE) "evening", we could reasonably replace it with the word "dark". That's a point in your favor, but it would still be indefinite as to which "dark" it was (pm twilight, night, or am twilight).

However, in many of the same Scriptures, we could just as reasonably replace "evening" with "afternoon" or "late afternoon" or "sunset" (which isn't yet "dark").

The point is, it's hard to define a word by USAGE, when the usages vary so much.

In any case, i await YOUR definition of "dark", and it must be precise, specific, & 25 words or less, or there's no way i can answer your question using your terms.
Chuck Baldwin
By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.


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