What Is The Scriptural Definition for Evening, Sundown, And

[BrotherArnold]

Shalom All,

What's really interesting about the day issue is that the morning to morning proponents cannot produce EVEN ONE conclusive place in Scripture or History where ANYONE ever observed the 24-hour day from morning to morning. This amazes me because it is the same thing that the traditional Saturday Sabbath keepers do. When I say conclusive evidence, I am speaking of scriptures like Leviticus 23 that shows the DAY of atonement begins at evening and Exodus 12 that shows that the seven DAYS of unleavened bread begins at evening or like the Historical evidence in the book of Josephus which clearly says the Sabbath began and ended at evening and this was at the time the temple will still standing.

When we understand that there are two definitions of a day, the narrow definition which consists of a 12 hour day of light and the broader definition that consists of 24-hours of light and darkness. The day always ENDS at evening NOT morning. The morning to morning proponents have TWO endings of a day, there 12 hour day ends at evening and they have another ending of the 24-hour day at morning and there's no scripture for this SECOND ending of a day. As I said before, there’s absolutely NO scripture or Historical evidence to support the morning to morning 24-hour day.

If anyone tries to respond to this post with anything less than a scriptural example they cannot be argued against or historical evidence where someone began the 24 day or day at morning, there will not do me any good at all. I'll await someone's answer.

Brother Arnold

[chuckbaldwin]

Hi Arnold,

Since a new calendar was instituted in Ex.12, from then on the ecclestiastical days were even-to-even. My main argument is that the CREATION days were dawn-to-dawn.

But there are also many passages that refer to the natural day. If you check out all the uses of the word "[to]morrow" (meaning the "next day"), you'll find that they all refer to the following morning, not "this evening".

[BrotherArnold]

Hi Arnold,

Since a new calendar was instituted in Ex.12, from then on the ecclestiastical days were even-to-even. My main argument is that the CREATION days were dawn-to-dawn.

But there are also many passages that refer to the natural day. If you check out all the uses of the word "[to]morrow" (meaning the "next day"), you'll find that they all refer to the following morning, not "this evening".

RESPONSE;

Genesis 19:34 says, "And it came to pass on the "MORROW", that the firstborn said unto the younger, behold, I lay "YESTERNIGHT" with my father: let us make him drink wine "THIS NIGHT" also;”.
And verse 35 says, "And they made their father drink wine "THAT NIGHT" also:

From the above we can see that MORROW was equivalent to THIS NIGHT. I know there are some that disagree but I believe THIS NIGHT is referring to the night that they were standing in and it was on the MORROW, from YESTERNIGHT. I agree that when someone said to morrow it can be referring to the next day light period, same as if I tell someone at 4 p.m. that I will see them to morrow, referring to the next day, does not mean that I do not understand that the day ends at evening instead of mourning, that's just the way we communicate.

[ErichMatthewJanzen]

Shalom, Chuck,

You had posted previously about defining darkness, and I would like to give you my understanding.

I believe I have shown from Psalm 30:5 and Job 7:3-4 that the word ereb can apply to a time period well into the night. However, I also believe that ereb can apply to a time period anytime after the sun begins to go down. In other words, the sun begins to rise at daybreak or dawn and continues to rise until midday. After this the sun begins to go down and continues to go down until dark - when the stars appear.

I believe Jeremiah 6:4 shows that this time period can be referred to as evening:

"Set them apart for war against her; rise up, let's attack at noon. Woe to us for the day is passing; the evening shadows grow long. rise up, let's attack in the night. Let us destroy her fortresses." [Holman Christian Standard Bible - HCSB]

The above passage mentions (1) noon, (2) the evening shadows growing long, and (3) night. I believe the #2 reference is speaking about the time of the going down of the sun in between Biblical noon (midday) and night. This is a time when shadows do grow long.

I believe this is also seen in Deuteronomy 16:6 were the command is given to sacrifice the Passover at even (ereb) at the going of the sun. I have purposely removed the word "down" in the phrase "going (down) of the sun" because there is no underlying Hebrew word for down in any of the passages that speak of the "going of the sun". Therefore "sunset" as we think of it is technically not in the Bible. The going of the sun is the opposite of the coming of the sun. Seeing that the coming of the sun begins at daybreak and continues till midday, the going of the sun begins after midday and continues till night. I believe this second period can be referred to as ereb.

Now, seeing there is more than one definition for the word ereb a person could say that He believes the evening to evening day begins either at midday or at night. I choose night based upon the following.

1.) Several verses in Scripture show that a Biblical 24 hour day consists of a daytime followed by a nighttime or a nighttime followed by a daytime (Lev. 8:35; Esther 4:16; Psalm 32:3-4; Neh. 1:6).

2.) Seeing that we have clear Biblical evidence that numbered days of the month begin at evening (Ex. 12:18; Lev. 23:32) the only choice would be to begin at the evening that comes at dark. This produces a nighttime followed by a daytime. The former evening (the one beginning at midday) produces a daytime followed by a nighttime, followed by a daytime. This is not consistent with the Biblical examples of 24 hour days.

3.) This is consistent with Neh. 13:19 a passage that is specifically about the Sabbath. Here we read that the gates of Jerusalem began to grow dark before the Sabbath. Examining the Hebrew text shows that this verse is probably a reference to the evening shadows which are also mentioned in Jeremiah 6:4. Therefore the shadows were covering the gates before the Sabbath began at evening - the evening at dark.

4.) How do we know when darkness is? This is a logical question seeing that darkness progresses all the way until midnight. An excellent determiner would be the light of the stars. We know the stars are mentioned in Gen. 1:14-18, Jer. 31:35, and Ps. 136:7-9. The stars are said to be a light by night. We also read this passage in the book of Nehemiah:

"From that day on, half of my men did the work while the other half held spears, shields, bows, and armor. The officers supported all the people of Judah... So we continued the work, while half of the men were holding spears from daybreak until the stars came out. At that time, I also said to the people, 'Let everyone and his servant spend the night inside Jerusalem, so that they can stand guard by night and work by day." [Neh. 4:16, 21-22]

Here the men would work during the day and cease at night. The passage also says they would work all day until the stars came out. The words "night" and "until the stars came out" are used interchangeably. Thus the light of the stars was a visible divider between day and night. If cloudy, and the stars aren't able to be seen, a person could err on the side of caution beginning the Sabbath a bit "early" and ending the Sabbath a bit "late".

Your friend,
Matthew Janzen

[LittleKangaDrinkingWine]

Matthew,

Just checking in from time to time, I happened to read this latest post of yours.

If I am reading you right, you now see that ereb is included in the daylight portion of the day, right? Ereb can be between noon and when the stars comes out or what I would call complete darkness, when the sun has fully set, right?

If this is the case, and I'll assume that it is, allow me to build upon that new knowledge (cause this is new knowledge for you, for you have recently changed your view on this), to bring up time that we are commanded to begin eating unleavened bread in Ex. 12:18. The passage states:

"In the first month on the 14th day of the month, at ereb, you shall eat unleavened bread, until the 21st day of the month at ereb."

Now Lev. 23 tells us when the days of unleavened bread are to be kept, that beginning the 15th for seven days, yet here in Ex. 12 we find the command to eat unleavened bread starting on the 14th.

Logically there are three choices that ereb can be spoken of in Ex. 12:18.

1) Ereb is in the daylight portion of the 14th day, which means it is well before dark, thus defining ereb as day.

2) Ereb is the exact moment of sunset and is neither day or night (I believe Chuck believes this)

3) Ereb can be either daylight or dark and does not define the calendar date at all.

If you say three, and I assume you will, then from the reading of Gen. 1 why would you not come to believe the day begins at noon, for then it became ereb (noon to midnight) and then it became morning (midnight to noon), day one?

LKDW

[kickme]

I think y'all are getting a little stressed out.
Maybe take a little wine for your stomach's sake......
And while you're at it, try to do it in each other's company so you can have a little positive time together

BTW, from the beginning time was listed as evening and morning being the 1st, 2nd, etc day. How hard is that to comprehend anyway? So why is anyone still bashing each other on it?

Hmmm, a lil Manischewitz anyone?

[chuckbaldwin]

BTW, from the beginning time was listed as evening and morning being the 1st, 2nd, etc day. How hard is that to comprehend anyway?

Hi Kickme,

It's easy enough to comprehend, but it's WRONG. It's even easier to comprehend what the Hebrew text says, which is NOT what the KJV says. Just see one of my previous posts on the subject. The Gen.1 creation days (day 2 - day 6) started & ended at DAWN (morning/boqer).

[chuckbaldwin]

Shalom, Chuck,

You had posted previously about defining darkness, and I would like to give you my understanding.

I believe I have shown from Psalm 30:5 and Job 7:3-4 that the word ereb can apply to a time period well into the night. However, I also believe that ereb can apply to a time period anytime after the sun begins to go down. In other words, the sun begins to rise at daybreak or dawn and continues to rise until midday. After this the sun begins to go down and continues to go down until dark - when the stars appear.

I believe Jeremiah 6:4 shows that this time period can be referred to as evening:

"Set them apart for war against her; rise up, let's attack at noon. Woe to us for the day is passing; the evening shadows grow long. rise up, let's attack in the night. Let us destroy her fortresses." [Holman Christian Standard Bible - HCSB]

Hi Matthew,

First, just so you know where i'm at: I only maintain that the Creation days started & ended at dawn. After Ex.12, i believe they were changed to evening (meaning sunset). Having said that, i understand that "ereb" has an indefinite meaning, as you pointed out. The "evening shadows" can be debated: one says it means the "shadows" occurred during the evening, making "evening" mean "late afternoon"; another says it means that the shadows signified the approach of evening, making "evening" mean sunset or night.

I do feel like when the context requires a fixed point in time, that "even[ing]" means "sunset" as in Mk.1:32. I realize i could be wrong, but i want everything to be "cut & dried" or precise.

I believe this is also seen in Deuteronomy 16:6 were the command is given to sacrifice the Passover at even (ereb) at the going of the sun. I have purposely removed the word "down" in the phrase "going (down) of the sun" because there is no underlying Hebrew word for down in any of the passages that speak of the "going of the sun". Therefore "sunset" as we think of it is technically not in the Bible. The going of the sun is the opposite of the coming of the sun. Seeing that the coming of the sun begins at daybreak and continues till midday, the going of the sun begins after midday and continues till night. I believe this second period can be referred to as ereb.

I can't be dogmatic, but my idea of "coming" & "going" of the sun is based on the premise that when we can see the sun, it is here. When it 1st appears at sunrise is when it "comes", and when it disappears at sunset, it "goes". Therefore the "going of the sun" would in fact be sunset. Just my view.

How do we know when darkness is? This is a logical question seeing that darkness progresses all the way until midnight. An excellent determiner would be the light of the stars. ... the men would work during the day and cease at night. The passage also says they would work all day until the stars came out. The words "night" and "until the stars came out" are used interchangeably. Thus the light of the stars was a visible divider between day and night.

I agree theoretically, but i would challenge you to stand outside with me "between the evenings" ([evening] twilight - NKJV), and tell me the precise instant when the stars "turn on" and it becomes "night".

Also, since both morning & evening twilight are both "partly dark", i suggest that it would be less ambiguous if you & Arnold changed your terminology to say the 24-hr day starts at "night" rather than "dark". Of course, i believe it starts at sunset, because of the uncertainty of the instant when "night" starts, as mentioned in my "challenge" above.

I seriously doubt we'll get it all resolved before Yahshua returns.

[ErichMatthewJanzen]

Shalom, Bro. Joey,

I believe that the first day of unleavened bread is the 15th of Abib, and this day begins when the 14th day ends, i.e. on the 14th day at evening / night. My other post explains why I believe the evening that ends or begins a Biblical 24 hour day would be the evening when the stars come out.

Concerning Genesis 1 I currently believe that each statement, "And there was evening, and there was morning, day one (etc)." is looking back on each particular day. In this case I believe the evening stands for the nighttime portion and the morning stands for the daytime portion (Gen. 1:4-5).

Yah bless!
Matthew

[ErichMatthewJanzen]

Shalom, Brother Chuck,

I wouldn not have a problem saying that the 24 hour day begins at night, I just believe the best way to determine night is with the light of the stars.

I don't know if I could tell you the precise instant that the Sabbath begins, but I'm not sure that any of us can do this. We are all just trying our best to follow YHWH in this regard and erring on the side of caution would not be a sin.

In Messiah,
Matthew

[BrotherArnold]

Shalom, Chuck,

You had posted previously about defining darkness, and I would like to give you my understanding.

I believe I have shown from Psalm 30:5 and Job 7:3-4 that the word ereb can apply to a time period well into the night. However, I also believe that ereb can apply to a time period anytime after the sun begins to go down. In other words, the sun begins to rise at daybreak or dawn and continues to rise until midday. After this the sun begins to go down and continues to go down until dark - when the stars appear.

I believe Jeremiah 6:4 shows that this time period can be referred to as evening:

"Set them apart for war against her; rise up, let's attack at noon. Woe to us for the day is passing; the evening shadows grow long. rise up, let's attack in the night. Let us destroy her fortresses." [Holman Christian Standard Bible - HCSB]

RESPONSE; I agree with Brother Matthew, I also believe even though the word ereb can apply to different periods of time, the original meaning of the word itself has not changed since Genesis one. i.e. The darkness (ereb) that was upon the earth. Not positive how he believes on this.

When it is used as evening shadows, it is referring to dark shadows, when it is used between the evening, it is referring to between the darks, it is used referring to night, it is referring to dark. I challenge anyone to show where the word itself cannot be referring to darkness as it did in Genesis. Remember between the evenings is referring to between the darkness, and attack at evening, is referring to attack at dark etc. it would be confusion to change the definition of this word in Genesis even though we can use it in different ways. At least that's my thoughts for now.

Brother Arnold

[kickme]

It's easy enough to comprehend, but it's WRONG. It's even easier to comprehend what the Hebrew text says, which is NOT what the KJV says. Just see one of my previous posts on the subject. The Gen.1 creation days (day 2 - day 6) started & ended at DAWN (morning/boqer).

Ok, I'm not quite sure how to answer that as every translation I can find lists the day evening and morning.


Here's what I have:
(EMTV)

(Geneva) And God called the light, Day, and the darkenes, he called Night. So the euening and the morning were the first day.

(GNT-TR+)

(HNT)

(HOT+) ויקר×?7121 ×?להי×?430 ל×?ור216 יו×?3117 ולחש×?ך2822 קר×?7121 לילה3915 ויהי1961 ערב6153 ויהי1961 בקר1242 יו×?3117 ×?חד׃259

(JPS) And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

(KJV+) And God430 called7121 the light216 Day,3117 and the darkness2822 he called7121 Night.3915 And the evening6153 and the morning1242 were1961 the first259 day.3117

(KJVA) And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

(LITV) And God called the light, Day. And He called the darkness, Night. And there was evening, and there was morning the first day.

(LXX) καὶ á¼?κάλεσεν á½? θεὸς τὸ φῶς ἡμέÏ?αν καὶ τὸ σκότος á¼?κάλεσεν νύκτα. καὶ á¼?γένετο ἑσπέÏ?α καὶ á¼?γένετο Ï€Ï?ωί, ἡμέÏ?α μία.

(The Scriptures \'98+) And Elohim called the light "day" and the darkness He called "night.' And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, the first day.

(YLT) and God calleth to the light `Day,\' and to the darkness He hath called `Night;\' and there is an evening, and there is a morning--day one.

Are you saying that every translation I've ever read was wrong on this?

[chuckbaldwin]

It's easy enough to comprehend, but it's WRONG. It's even easier to comprehend what the Hebrew text says, which is NOT what the KJV says. Just see one of my previous posts on the subject. The Gen.1 creation days (day 2 - day 6) started & ended at DAWN (morning/boqer).

Ok, I'm not quite sure how to answer that as every translation I can find lists the day evening and morning.
Here's what I have:

You're getting warmer. In your list below, i have BOLDened the ones that are CORRECT; the others are INCORRECT.

(EMTV)

(Geneva) And God called the light, Day, and the darkenes, he called Night. So the euening and the morning were the first day.

(GNT-TR+)

(HNT)

(HOT+) ויקר×?7121 ×?להי×?430 ל×?ור216 יו×?3117 ולחש×?ך2822 קר×?7121 לילה3915 ויהי1961 ערב6153 ויהי1961 בקר1242 יו×?3117 ×?חד׃259

I don't know about that one. I can't read Greek that well.

(JPS) And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

(KJV+) And God430 called7121 the light216 Day,3117 and the darkness2822 he called7121 Night.3915 And the evening6153 and the morning1242 were1961 the first259 day.3117

(KJVA) And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

(LITV) And God called the light, Day. And He called the darkness, Night. And there was evening, and there was morning the first day.

(LXX) καὶ á¼?κάλεσεν á½? θεὸς τὸ φῶς ἡμέÏ?αν καὶ τὸ σκότος á¼?κάλεσεν νύκτα. καὶ á¼?γένετο ἑσπέÏ?α καὶ á¼?γένετο Ï€Ï?ωί, ἡμέÏ?α μία.

Again, i can't read Greek that well, but i do know that the English translation of the LXX has it correct.

(The Scriptures '98+) And Elohim called the light "day" and the darkness He called "night.' And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, the first day.

(YLT) and God calleth to the light `Day,' and to the darkness He hath called `Night;' and there is an evening, and there is a morning--day one.

I think the above has the verb tense wrong, which makes it confusing.

Are you saying that every translation I've ever read was wrong on this?

No; only the ones i DIDN'T put in BOLD above

[chuckbaldwin]

I also believe even though the word ereb can apply to different periods of time, the original meaning of the word itself has not changed since Genesis one. i.e. The darkness (ereb) that was upon the earth.

You are mistaken. The original "darkness" was not "ereb", it was "choshek". Just thought i'd point that out.

I challenge anyone to show where the word itself cannot be referring to darkness...

I already did this, but sometimes you seem to ignore posts that you don't have an answer for, so i'll re-state the one i refer to:

In Matt.14 (about the feeding of the 5000), in v15 it says, "And when it was "evening", his disciples came to him, saying, This is a desert place, and the time is now past; send the multitude away, that they may go into the villages, and buy themselves victuals."

According to your definition, it just became DARK. BUT...

In v23, it says "23 And when he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into a mountain apart to pray: and when the "evening" was come, he was there alone."

Now, several minutes to an hour or more later, by your definition, it becomes DARK AGAIN!
What's wrong with this picture? If "DARK" arrived in v15, then it couldn't have arrive in v23; and if "DARK" arrived in v23, then whatever "evening" came in v15 wasn't "DARK".

[kickme]

Chuck, I still don't understand.
All the versions show evening first, then morning, showing the 24 hour day beginning at dark. And again, all of them also show the day being daylight hours.
It's just like today, the day of daylight is part of the day as a whole, but so is the dark hours of the day called night also part of the day as a whole.
Yet all translations show evening (night, dark or whatever) came first, and the daylight hours finished the day.