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What Is The Scriptural Definition for Evening, Sundown, And

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principessa-yisraeliana
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Postby principessa-yisraeliana » 28 Feb 2008, 17:49

BrotherArnold wrote:
JMSchattke wrote:Eriq, you are a piece of work.

The "between the evenings" reference is from Ex 13; it refers to when to slaughter the lamb. The lamb, that if it's blood wasn't on the lintels of your doorway, meant every firstborn in the house would die - during the night.

You can bet that the Israelites knew exactly what time it meant, because that same lamb - killed between the evenings - was roasted immediately and to be eaten - all of it - before morning. During that same night.

Ex 13 is very clear. ערב leaves no wiggle room. You seem to just refuse to admit you are wrong.


RESPONSE; shalom Brother JMSchattke, Brother Eric is correct in saying that between the evenings is between the darks. The Scripture definition of evening is dark according to Genesis and ever where else it is used, therefore between the evenings is between the darks of a 24-hour day. I challenge anyone to find one place in Scripture where evening is not dark or making reference of between the darks. People try to tell me that evening means this or that but can never find their definition in Scripture. Can you?

I know to Strong's concordance uses the Word dusk, night, evening, etc. but do we know what dusk meant to Strong's back then? I believe Strong's understood dusk as being dark because no where in the Scripture is dusk the way we understand it today. I showed where the Septuagint even translated it as night evening or dark. Dusk the way we understand it today is not dark but backthen it was. Example as the gates BEGAN to grow dark BEFORE the Sabbath. Began to grow dark would be dusk as we understand it today but dark is when the Sabbath began.
By the way where you aware that the Scripture conclusive proof that there is a between the evening before sunrise as well as a between the evening at the going down of the sun? If not this may be where the confusion comes in.

I will await your conclusive Scripture where evening is not dark.

Brother Arnold


Brother Arnold,

When do you kill the Passover Lamb? What day and at what time? When do you eat it, and when do you begin to eat Unleavened Bread? I hope you don't mind my asking this in light of what you are saying about 'evening' and 'dark'.

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Postby eriqbenel » 28 Feb 2008, 18:09

JMSchattke wrote:Eriq, you are a piece of work.


Well, I could be a "piece of" a lot worse things, Jonathan!

The "between the evenings" reference is from Ex 13; it refers to when to slaughter the lamb. The lamb, that if it's blood wasn't on the lintels of your doorway, meant every firstborn in the house would die - during the night.




I never said they didn't know what it means, Genius!

What I said was that it may have meant something different in Exodus 13 than it meant 2000 years later in Messiah's day



You can bet that the Israelites knew exactly what time it meant, because that same lamb - killed between the evenings - was roasted immediately and to be eaten - all of it - before morning. During that same night.
Ex 13 is very clear. ערב leaves no wiggle room. You seem to just refuse to admit you are wrong.



I never said anything to dispute this. I agree with it.

You are so focused on trying to prove me wrong, that you don't even realize that my comments don't dispute yours. So if I'm wrong, so are you, Einstein...
Shalom in the name of YHWH,

Eriq

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Postby BrotherArnold » 29 Feb 2008, 01:30

principessa-yisraeliana wrote:
BrotherArnold wrote:
JMSchattke wrote:Eriq, you are a piece of work.

The "between the evenings" reference is from Ex 13; it refers to when to slaughter the lamb. The lamb, that if it's blood wasn't on the lintels of your doorway, meant every firstborn in the house would die - during the night.

You can bet that the Israelites knew exactly what time it meant, because that same lamb - killed between the evenings - was roasted immediately and to be eaten - all of it - before morning. During that same night.

Ex 13 is very clear. ערב leaves no wiggle room. You seem to just refuse to admit you are wrong.


RESPONSE; shalom Brother JMSchattke, Brother Eric is correct in saying that between the evenings is between the darks. The Scripture definition of evening is dark according to Genesis and ever where else it is used, therefore between the evenings is between the darks of a 24-hour day. I challenge anyone to find one place in Scripture where evening is not dark or making reference of between the darks. People try to tell me that evening means this or that but can never find their definition in Scripture. Can you?

I know to Strong's concordance uses the Word dusk, night, evening, etc. but do we know what dusk meant to Strong's back then? I believe Strong's understood dusk as being dark because no where in the Scripture is dusk the way we understand it today. I showed where the Septuagint even translated it as night evening or dark. Dusk the way we understand it today is not dark but backthen it was. Example as the gates BEGAN to grow dark BEFORE the Sabbath. Began to grow dark would be dusk as we understand it today but dark is when the Sabbath began.
By the way where you aware that the Scripture conclusive proof that there is a between the evening before sunrise as well as a between the evening at the going down of the sun? If not this may be where the confusion comes in.

I will await your conclusive Scripture where evening is not dark.

Brother Arnold


Brother Arnold,

When do you kill the Passover Lamb? What day and at what time? When do you eat it, and when do you begin to eat Unleavened Bread? I hope you don't mind my asking this in light of what you are saying about 'evening' and 'dark'.



RESPONSE; we kill it on the 14th day between evenings around 3:00 p.m. at the going down of the sun, same as Josephus and Philo who lived at the time the temple was still standing. We eat it that night with unleavened bread which will be the 15th.

Brother Arnold
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Postby BrotherArnold » 29 Feb 2008, 02:28

chuckbaldwin wrote:
BrotherArnold wrote:I will await your conclusive Scripture where evening is not dark.
Hi Arnold,

In order to answer the question in YOUR language, i would need to know YOUR definition of "dark". The places in Scripture where "evening" appears to be "defined", use terms that have been debated, so there is no universally accepted definition of "evening".

RESPONSE; Shalom Brother Chuck, I believe the definition of dark is defined in Genesis one, where it says, and there was DARKNESS upon the face of the deep. Darkness is the absence of sunlight, and I believe that's why true sundown is always dark according to the Scriptures and that is why no one can find a sundown in Scripture that is not dark. When the sunlight goes away the darkness comes almost like it was in Genesis. There is a place where evening is used and is referring to between the evenings or between the darks but every time it is used to refer to the end of the day, it is dark. When the light that He called day goes away at evening, the day is gone because the light is gone.

You wrote,

“In most, if not all of the Scriptures that USE (as opposed to DEFINE) "evening", we could reasonably replace it with the word "dark". That's a point in your favor,"

RESPONSE; the reason you can replace evening with dark is because at creation darkness was here first before light and this SAME darkness was divided from the light and was referred to as evening by Moses and that is why evening and darkness is synonymous, night also.

You wrote,

but it would still be indefinite as to which "dark" it was (pm twilight, night, or am twilight).

RESPONSE; I some what agree and that's why other terms came into existence such as midnight, noonday, as it began to grow dark, as it began to grow light, also there is a between the evenings BEFORE sunrise in Exodus 16 and there is a between the evenings at the going down of the sun and finally by the time of the New Testament they had divided the night and day into watches and even hours. All these different terms would allow appointments to be kept without having to wait as long for someone to show.

Even though it would still be indefinite as to which "dark" it was (pm twilight, night, or am twilight), it is still less confusion than if the word at evening had more than one meaning. How would I know when the day ends, at dusk or at dark? The same is true with a term sundown, if sundown carried several different meanings other than dark, it would not be specific and I believe that ANY terms that is dealing with time has to be specific. The reason that any time a term is used to refer to TIME it's self, such as a sundown, EVENING, etc, has to be SPECIFIC as because it is USELESS, confusion, and defeats its own purpose if it doesn't. In the very beginning the Hebrew the word for EVENING referred to DARK or DARKNESS and it carries this meaning throughout the Scriptures even though the word can be used to refer to a space of time between the darkness. This is the reason no one can find the Hebrew word for EVENING referring to anything but darkness, or between the darkness. As time went on, other terms were used, such as midnight, to be more specific as to what part of the darkness you're thinking of but the term EVENING is still referring to darkness.

.
You wrote,

"However, in many of the same Scriptures, we could just as reasonably replace "evening" with "afternoon" or "late afternoon" or "sunset" (which isn't yet "dark").
The point is, it's hard to define a word by USAGE, when the usages vary so much."


RESPONSE; I do not know of a conclusive Scripture where sunset is not dark, I don't say there isn't any but I would like to see them if they are. And any of the few places that you could replace evening with afternoon or late afternoon the word evening would still be referring to between the evenings or between the darks. There's no place in Scripture that indicates that the end of the day is not dark/evening.

You Wrote,

"In any case, i await YOUR definition of "dark", and it must be precise, specific, & 25 words or less, or there's no way i can answer your question using your terms."

RESPONSE; I believe the Scripture definition of dark/darkness is found in Genesis one and it is called night/evening
Last edited by BrotherArnold on 29 Feb 2008, 11:38, edited 2 times in total.
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



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Postby principessa-yisraeliana » 29 Feb 2008, 07:14


RESPONSE; we kill it on the 14th day between evenings around 3:00 p.m. at the going down of the sun, same as Josephus and Philo who lived at the time the temple was still standing. We eat it that night with unleavened bread which will be the 15th.

Brother Arnold



Thanks, that helps me to know we're on the same page. Appreciate the digression in order to share that for my benefit. Shalom. Cherie

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Accepting the Context & Lexicons on Ereb

Postby ErichMatthewJanzen » 29 Feb 2008, 11:53

Shalom, All,

Eric wrote the following:

We'll try to explain this once again for Jonathan's sake.

What is MORE IMPORTANT in Scriptural interpretation than what a word generally means is the CONTEXT in which the word is used. I'll give an example sentence:

"Frank is a nice guy alright, he stole my money and ran off with my wife!"

Now what does "NICE" generally mean? Pleasant, enjoyable; kind, courteous, considerate.... But can that meaning be applied in my sentence? No, because the CONTEXT implies something else.

"ereb" may generally mean "mingled", but in the majority of CONTEXT, it is used to indicate "dark". It is good and right to investigate the meaning of words, but in the process of literary interpretation, leaving out CONTEXT and just going with word definitions is bad practice.

SO, it is NOT a "mistranslation" to speak of it as "night" if the context warrants such.

BY THE WAY, the Strong's isn't a "dictionary", it is a "concordance", showing you how words are "translated". The Strong's doesn't do the translating, it is showing you the renderings after the fact. Also, the vernacular and definitions of words change over time:


I reply: I agree with Eric that the context of how a word is used is the strongest determiner of what the word means in any particular sentence. Such is the case with the way he used the word "nice" sarcastically in the above scenario.

The term ereb can definitely mean the entire period of night, per Psalm 30:5:

"For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favour is life: weeping may endure for a night [ereb], but joy cometh in the morning."

Notice that here the weeping endures for a night, which strongly implies that the word "night" here has a reference to the entire night until morning. It just so happens that the Hebrew word for night here is the word ereb.

What all this does not mean is that we should discredit the Hebrew lexicons which clearly show that ereb literally has to do with a mingling of light and darkness. We can easily accept that evening means the time when it begins to get dark and the time when it is completely dark. Darkness actually progesses throughout the entire night until literal midnight, i.e. it gets darker and darker.

When the day changes into night it is not like turning off a light switch. I can walk into my living room and turn the light switch on (immediate light) or off (immediate darkness), but the actual day is not like this. There is a transition between the daytime and the night time, and by looking at the Hebrew word ereb and it's kindred-related words it appears that from the moment darkness begins to enter into the light thus having a mixture of light and dark, it is ereb.

BTW, Strong's is both a concordance and a Dictionary. It not only gives you the specific places a word is used in Scripture, it also gives a definition for Hebrew and Greek words albeit they are not as exhaustive as the title of the work itself promotes.

Yah bless,
Matthew

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Re: Morning/evening

Postby kathybyers2000 » 29 Feb 2008, 20:12

principessa-yisraeliana wrote:
kathybyers2000 wrote:Something to consider:

Jhn 20:1 ¶ The first [day] of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

And later in the writing in regards to the same day:

Jhn 20:19 ¶ Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you.



What do these verses mean to you, Kathy? Can you explain the timeline and how the dark/evening flows between the two? Thanks!


Shalom principessa.

Thanks for asking.

These verses show me that the morning (that is the mingling between the night becoming day) that PREcedes a DAY, and the evening (that is the mingling between the day becoming night) the proceeds a DAY are both a part of the DAY and are not night. Night is utter darkness and YHWH divided the light (DAY) from the darkness (NIGHT) with boker and ereb.

There are a few places that the hebrew word ereb was translated in to night, however, ereb is evening and I could find quite a few other places of poor translation as well.

There is a scripture that was quoted in this topic in reference to weeping through the night (ereb) however, evening could just as easily be placed there.

YHWH showed me six times that evening and morning were the DAY, not the night.

My understanding of this. I know there will be several who disagree in part or in whole. Just wanted to share what I have been shown.

shalom,

Kathy

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Re: Morning/evening

Postby principessa-yisraeliana » 29 Feb 2008, 21:19

kathybyers2000 wrote:
principessa-yisraeliana wrote:
kathybyers2000 wrote:Something to consider:

Jhn 20:1 ¶ The first [day] of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

And later in the writing in regards to the same day:

Jhn 20:19 ¶ Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you.



What do these verses mean to you, Kathy? Can you explain the timeline and how the dark/evening flows between the two? Thanks!


Shalom principessa.

Thanks for asking.

These verses show me that the morning (that is the mingling between the night becoming day) that PREcedes a DAY, and the evening (that is the mingling between the day becoming night) the proceeds a DAY are both a part of the DAY and are not night. Night is utter darkness and YHWH divided the light (DAY) from the darkness (NIGHT) with boker and ereb.

There are a few places that the hebrew word ereb was translated in to night, however, ereb is evening and I could find quite a few other places of poor translation as well.

There is a scripture that was quoted in this topic in reference to weeping through the night (ereb) however, evening could just as easily be placed there.

YHWH showed me six times that evening and morning were the DAY, not the night.

My understanding of this. I know there will be several who disagree in part or in whole. Just wanted to share what I have been shown.

shalom,

Kathy


So, when Mary came it was what time? And when Yahshua presented Himself, it was what time?

I will have to go back and look at that passage as a whole.

Thanks, Kathy!

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Postby chuckbaldwin » 01 Mar 2008, 02:23

BrotherArnold wrote:
chuckbaldwin wrote:
BrotherArnold wrote:I will await your conclusive Scripture where evening is not dark.
In order to answer the question in YOUR language, i would need to know YOUR definition of "dark". The places in Scripture where "evening" appears to be "defined", use terms that have been debated, so there is no universally accepted definition of "evening".
RESPONSE; I believe the definition of dark is defined in Genesis one, where it says, and there was DARKNESS upon the face of the deep.
Hi Arnold,

Just as an aside, there's no DEFINITION of "darkness" in what you quoted. The word "darkness" is merely used in a sentence. If we didn't already have an idea what "darkness" meant, then we wouldn't know WHAT was "upon the face of the deep"; it could have been a boat, or a cloud, or an ice pack. You need to distinguish between DEFINITION and USAGE.
Arnold wrote:Darkness is the absence of sunlight, ...
OK, stop there. We now have YOUR definition of "darkness", and that's what i'll work with. Everything you posted after this point was just rambling on & on & on unnecessarily, and at the end you presented a confilcting definition, which i'll ignore for now. Here are some Scriptures with my comments based on "evening" being replaced with "dark" (meaning "the absence of sunlight"):

Gen.8:11 - How did the dove find the ark in the "dark"; and how did Noah know that dove had an olive branch if he couldn't see it?
Gen.24:11 - Why would the women wait and go to the well in the "dark" to draw water?
Gen.30:16 - Why would Jacob wait til "dark" to come out of the field?
1Sa 17:16 - Why would Goliath draw near in the "dark" when nobody could see him?
> The next 2 verses show 2 consecutive "evenings" within the same timeframe.
Mat.14:15 - When it was evening the disciples told Yahshua to send the multitude away to buy vittles.
Mat.14:23 - And when he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into a mountain apart to pray: and when the evening was come, he was there alone.
> Note also, that the things that were done between v15 & v23 (e.g. the feeding of 5000) absolutely would not have been done in the "dark". We have "dark" in v15, then "dark" coming in v23. How can "dark" COME if it's already there?
Mat.16:2 - The sky can't be "red" and "dark" (without sunlight) at the same time.

You needn't waste time & words trying to explain away each individual Scripture. They all have basically the same theme: many events & things are done in the "evening" that either can't be done, or never are done in the "dark".
... I believe that ANY terms that is dealing with time has to be specific.
That would be nice, but unfortunately, it just isn't the case.
You wrote,

"However, in many of the same Scriptures, we could just as reasonably replace "evening" with "afternoon" or "late afternoon" or "sunset" (which isn't yet "dark").
The point is, it's hard to define a word by USAGE, when the usages vary so much."

RESPONSE; I do not know of a conclusive Scripture where sunset is not dark,
And i don't know anywhere that sunset IS "dark". All you gotta do is go look at the sun set. When it disappears, there's still plenty light around.
And any of the few places that you could replace evening with afternoon or late afternoon the word evening would still be referring to between the evenings or between the darks.
Don't confuse the issue; we're discussing simple "evening" NOT "between the evenings". At any rate i totally reject YOUR definition of BTE!
I believe the Scripture definition of dark/darkness is found in Genesis one and it is called night/evening
Again, i repeat that is a USAGE, NOT a DEFINITION.
It only says "and the DARKness He called NIGHT".
It does NOT say that He called the EVENING anything, or that "Evening is...".j
"Evening" simply is NOT DEFINED in Gen.1; it is just used in the text, and assumes that the meaning is known. "And it became EVENING [in this case "dark" would work], and it became MORNING (DAWN), [and that completed] DAY 1-2-3-4-5-6". DAWN ended each day, NOT EVENING which was 12 hours earlier.
Chuck Baldwin
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Re: Morning/evening

Postby chuckbaldwin » 01 Mar 2008, 02:28

kathybyers2000 wrote:YHWH showed me six times that evening and morning were the DAY, not the night.
Hi Kathy,

Are you sure it was YHWH and not good ole King James that showed you that? Unless i guessed wrong, you're talking about the 6 verses in Gen.1 where the KJV renders it "and the evening and the morning were the nth day".

Rather than repeat my understanding again, i'll just suggest that you look closely at the Hebrew text (and maybe some other translations), and compare what the Hebrew says with what King Jim says.
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

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Postby BrotherArnold » 01 Mar 2008, 04:40

Brother Chuck writes,

"Here are some Scriptures with my comments based on "evening" being replaced with "dark" (meaning "the absence of sunlight"):

Gen.8:11 - How did the dove find the ark in the "dark"; and how did Noah know that dove had an olive branch if he couldn't see it?


RESPONSE; doves, like homing pigeons can fly at night, and besides it could have seen the ark just before evening/dark and then landed at dark. A dove or a person can see some at night, especially something as big as the ark was, floating on a ocean of water with nothing else around.

You said,

"And how did Noah know that dove had an olive branch if he couldn't see it?

RESPONSE; no one said that Noah couldn't see the olive branch. He could have had a lantern or lamp in his hand if he even needed one, which is doubtful. This argument is very weak to say the least.


You wrote,


"Gen.24:11 - Why would the women wait and go to the well in the "dark" to draw water?


RESPONSE; Genesis 24:11 says, "At the time" of the evening" which would be equivalent to saying just before dark. The Septuagint even translated it "TWORD evening" when the damsels go forth to draw water. We have discussed this before and I gave you several translations that agreed with the understanding that it was just before dark that they went forth to draw water. I think one of them was the Revised Standard Version but at any rate I think it was at the time of the evening, NOT evening I believe the Scripture would have said "AT EVENING" instead of "AT THE TIME OF THE EVENING" if evening/dark was to be understood, as in other scriptures. This also is a very weak argument.

You wrote,


"Gen.30:16 - Why would Jacob wait til "dark" to come out of the field?


RESPONSE; because Jacob was a hard worker and the Scripture says we have six DAYS to work, and it is not a sin to use all of it. As growing up on a farm, I can verify that we sometimes worked until sundown and when we came out of the field it was dark. This also is a very weak argument.


You wrote,

"1Sa 17:16 - Why would Goliath draw near in the "dark" when nobody could see him?


RESPONSE; you seem to mistakenly think there is no visibility at all at dark. Have you ever seen anyone at dark? How do you know it was not around full moon time, when visibility is very good? This to is a very weak argument.

You wrote,

"> The next 2 verses show 2 consecutive "evenings" within the same timeframe.
Mat.14:15 - When it was evening the disciples told Yahshua to send the multitude away to buy vittles.
Mat.14:23 - And when he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into a mountain apart to pray: and when the evening was come, he was there alone.


RESPONSE; as Brother Erick pointed out, the New Testament uses the word evening to show that it was late in the day but again you seem to think that people can not see at all at night. Have you ever gone grocery shopping that night? don't you think the stores had lamps and lanterns back then for late customers? They probably lived in the store as when I was growing up and they lit their lanterns at night and if someone came to their store at night to buy something, there was no problem.

You wrote,


> Note also, that the things that were done between v15 & v23 (e.g. the feeding of 5000) absolutely would not have been done in the "dark".


RESPONSE; have you ever ate at night? Also In verse 15, the disciples said the TIME is past, send the multitude away to buy. I believe the time that had passed was the moed/Sabbath and after the Sabbath was over they could have bought and on top of this it could have been a full moon Sabbath with plenty of light for the multitude to eat the boy's lunch.

You wrote,


We have "dark" in v15, then "dark" coming in v23. How can "dark" COME if it's already there?


RESPONSE; it just says, "When evening was come, he was there alone" i.e. he was alone that evening.


You wrote,

Mat.16:2 - The sky can't be "red" and "dark" (without sunlight) at the same time.


RESPONSE; I showed you before time when we discussed this, how that sailors on a ship could see the curvature of the earth and the red skies in the evening/dark that they were in and it was still light miles away and the evening darkness had not reached them yet.

You wrote,

You needn't waste time & words trying to explain away each individual Scripture. They all have basically the same theme: many events & things are done in the "evening" that either can't be done, or never are done in the "dark".


RESPONSE; I never saw in the above, any events or things that can not be done in the "evening/night" . If I believed what you wrote above, it would be like saying people can't eat at night, even if it is a full moon, neither can people see other people at night, people can not walk out of the field at night like Jacob did, they cannot distinguish an olive branch even with a lantern or lamp, etc. as I said above, all of these are weak arguments to say the least. You might convince some city slickers but us farm boys know better and that from experience.
Last edited by BrotherArnold on 02 Mar 2008, 13:23, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Morning/evening

Postby kathybyers2000 » 01 Mar 2008, 11:27

chuckbaldwin wrote:
kathybyers2000 wrote:YHWH showed me six times that evening and morning were the DAY, not the night.
Hi Kathy,

Are you sure it was YHWH and not good ole King James that showed you that? Unless i guessed wrong, you're talking about the 6 verses in Gen.1 where the KJV renders it "and the evening and the morning were the nth day".

Rather than repeat my understanding again, i'll just suggest that you look closely at the Hebrew text (and maybe some other translations), and compare what the Hebrew says with what King Jim says.


Well, now I'm intrigued because I thought you and I agreed on this, that the day started in the morning (which I understand was assigned to the day) and ended in the evening (which I understand was also assigned to the day).

Must have misunderstood one of your posts. I will go back and seek out your understanding so that you do not have to repeat yourself.

Shalom,

Kathy

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Re: Morning/evening

Postby eriqbenel » 01 Mar 2008, 21:05

kathybyers2000 wrote:
chuckbaldwin wrote:
kathybyers2000 wrote:YHWH showed me six times that evening and morning were the DAY, not the night.
Hi Kathy,

Are you sure it was YHWH and not good ole King James that showed you that? Unless i guessed wrong, you're talking about the 6 verses in Gen.1 where the KJV renders it "and the evening and the morning were the nth day".

Rather than repeat my understanding again, i'll just suggest that you look closely at the Hebrew text (and maybe some other translations), and compare what the Hebrew says with what King Jim says.


Well, now I'm intrigued because I thought you and I agreed on this, that the day started in the morning (which I understand was assigned to the day) and ended in the evening (which I understand was also assigned to the day).

Must have misunderstood one of your posts. I will go back and seek out your understanding so that you do not have to repeat yourself.

Shalom,

Kathy




LOL! :lol:

Yeah, it's confusing, isn't it?
Shalom in the name of YHWH,



Eriq

chuckbaldwin
Posts: 334
Joined: 21 Oct 2007, 13:44
Location: East Ridge, TN

Re: Morning/evening

Postby chuckbaldwin » 02 Mar 2008, 06:34

kathybyers2000 wrote:
chuckbaldwin wrote:
kathybyers2000 wrote:YHWH showed me six times that evening and morning were the DAY, not the night.
Hi Kathy,

Are you sure it was YHWH and not good ole King James that showed you that? Unless i guessed wrong, you're talking about the 6 verses in Gen.1 where the KJV renders it "and the evening and the morning were the nth day".

Rather than repeat my understanding again, i'll just suggest that you look closely at the Hebrew text (and maybe some other translations), and compare what the Hebrew says with what King Jim says.


Well, now I'm intrigued because I thought you and I agreed on this, that the day started in the morning (which I understand was assigned to the day) and ended in the evening (which I understand was also assigned to the day).

Must have misunderstood one of your posts. I will go back and seek out your understanding so that you do not have to repeat yourself.
Hi Kathy,

You don't have to search. I think i see the difficulty. I agree that the 24-hour day starts at "morning" (technically "boqer" = DAWN). And it ends with the following DAWN - 24 hours later. In Gen.1, the general sequence for each "day" is:
1. Elohim said... and it came to pass. (i.e. He did His work for that day),
2. And it became evening (or "evening came"),
3. And it became morning (or "morning came"),
[thus completing] DAY 1,2,3,4,5,6.

I think your wording about the evening and the morning being "assigned" to the "day" confused me.
4X, the evening "assigned" to the 3rd day was followed by the morning that ended the 3rd day and started the 4th day; I would say that morning was "assigned" to the 4th day.
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

ErichMatthewJanzen
Posts: 51
Joined: 11 Nov 2007, 12:16
Location: Conyers, GA
Contact:

Another Example of EREB Meaning Night

Postby ErichMatthewJanzen » 02 Mar 2008, 08:22

Shalom, All,

I've already commented on Psalm 30:5 proving that the Hebrew word ereb can have the meaning of lasting well into the nightime. I just want to briefly mention another Scripture that proves this same understanding, Job 7:3-4.

"So I have been allotted months of futility, and wearisome nights have been appointed to me. When I lie down, I say, ‘When shall I arise, and the night [ereb] be ended?’ For I have had my fill of tossing till dawn." [NKJV]

In the above verse the second word translated "night" is the word ereb. There are two significant points here:

1.) The first use of the word night in this passage is the Hebrew word layil or layelah, the word most often translated into English as night. In the passage the first phrase "wearisome nights" and the second phrase "night be ended" are used interchangeably. Thus, at least in this passage, the Hebrew words layelah and ereb are basically synonomous.

2.) We should also notice more closely the phrase "night be ended" in verse 4. The RSV translates this as "But the night is long..." showing that Job is expressing his prolonged conscious time in the evening due to his discomfort. The word "long" here (RSV) comes from the Hebrew word madad which is translated in 1 Kings 17:21 as "stretched himself". He continues by saying that he's tossing back and forth until dawn. This shows that the word ereb definitely extends or "stretches" into a very large portion of the nightime.

Yah bless,
Matthew


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