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What Is The Scriptural Definition for Evening, Sundown, And

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BrotherArnold
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What Is The Scriptural Definition for Evening, Sundown, And

Postby BrotherArnold » 23 Feb 2008, 05:10

Shalom All,

We must find a conclusive scriptural definition of EVENING before we can keep the appointments of YHWH.

First of all the original Scriptural definition of evening is found in Genesis one and was the period of darkness that was called night and the definition of morning was the period of light that was called Day, no other division of time was mentioned, or needed. As time went on and men began to multiply they divided the night and day into more specific segments and used terms such as midnight, midday, noon, twilight, sunrise, sunset, and between the evenings etc. these terms allow them to be more specific in communicating with YHWH and each other. You had such terms as between the evenings before sunrise (Ex-16) and between the evenings at the going down of the sun (Deut-16) etc. In today’s fast pace we have hours, minuets and seconds of time but in the beginning the two basic periods of a day was evening and morning, the evening/darkness/night lasted until sunrise/light/morning/day, which in turn lasted until evening/dark and it began over again. And I will prove this from Scripture.

I am about to prove from Scripture from Scripture that evening is dark.

I will start by showing that the ancient ancestors understood sundown as dark. See Genesis 15:17
"And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark,

When the sun is completely down it is dark.

Amos 8:9 says "I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:

Notice if the sun goes down at noon, the earth will be dark, why will the earth the dark??? Because the sun went down.

Micah 3:6 "The sun shall go down over the prophets, and the day shall be dark over them.

Here again we see that when the sun goes down, it is dark. Why? Because the sun went down.

And for these ye shall be unclean: whosoever toucheth the carcase of them shall be unclean until the even. And whosoever beareth ought of the carcase of them shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even. [LEVITICUS 11:24-25]

Compare this verse with the following and you will see that sundown and dark is synonymous with EVENING. "Whosoever toucheth any creeping thing, whereby he may be made unclean, or a man of whom he may take uncleanness, whatsoever uncleanness he hath; The soul which hath touched any such shall be unclean until even, and shall not eat of the holy things, unless he wash his flesh with water. And when the "sun is down", he shall be clean [LEVITICUS 22:5-7]

Notice: the two above Scriptures conclusively proves that sundown and evening are synonymous, one says, and be unclean until the even. [LEVITICUS 11:24-25]
And the other says, And when the "sun is down", he shall be clean… [LEVITICUS 22:5-7] this proves that sundown and evening are synonymous, and I have demonstrated how that sundown is dark. i.e. sundown equals evening and sundown equals dark according to scripture definitions, and by using deductive reasoning we can conclusively prove from Scripture that evening is dark.

Above are just a few Scripture that support my understanding of sundown as being dark and sundown being evening.
We know from Genesis where He said the light He called day, i.e. day is the name for light, and if you still see light you are seeing that day but when it gets completely dark at conjunction, another day began, same as the conjunction of the moon, when the light is gone the new month begins.

I believe the Scriptures will interpret themselves as to what sundown is and as to what evening is.
In Genesis we read, "The light he called day and the darkness he called night and the evening (darkness) and the morning (light) were the first day (24hr period).

I believe this is a Scripture definition of evening, and I believe the above concerning sundown being dark, in one place, and sundown being evening in another place, is a scriptural definition of sundown and therefore a new 24 hr period begins at dark/sundown/evening. We cannot count on the Strong's concordance or any concordance's definition of a word if it cannot be proven from Scripture. The concordance says evening is dusk but you cannot find no conclusive place in scriptures to support this.

People's understanding of words today are different than two thousand years ago. I gave scripture where sundown is referring to dark and evening but our understanding of sundown is different.

The same is true with the Hebrew word TWILIGHT. Twilight also was understood as dark but probably at different periods of the night/dark. i.e. when it 1st gets dark it is twilight dark. This would allow people to communicate what time of the evening it was. We today might say six or seven o'clock depending on what time it get's dark and they would say twilight.

Examples-
Proverbs 7:9
in the "twilight in the evening, in the black and dark night:"

This proves that they understood that Twilight, evening, black and dark night are all synonymous, same as sun down and evening and sundown and dark. I believe that twilight is the period of darkness just after the sun is completely down and it is dark at conjunction and there's another twilight in the darkness just before the sun comes up at conjunction, and the light gets brighter from that point on but in any case the scriptural definition of twilight is dark according to the above scriptures. I realize man has other understandings of twilight but can anyone show were twilight is not dark in Scripture?

Job 24:15-16 "The adulterer waiteth for the twilight, saying, no eye shall see me and distinguish his face. In the dark they dig through houses which they have marked for themselves in the daytime.

If someone want to say twilight is something different than dark, would it be asking too much for just one scripture? Remember that twilight is also synonymous with evening, same as sundown.

Twilight (dark/evening) or sundown/dark/evening it's all the same because the Scripture teaches when the sun is down, it is dark. I believe they understood the true sundown as being synonymous with dark.

"And in the evening I digged through the wall with my hands and brought it fourth in the twilight"

Again Twilight appears to be the early part of the darkness and begins right after dark, at conjunction, and Possibly the darkness right before any light appears in the morning, at conjunction.
[EZEKIEL 12:4-8]

Then shalt thou bring forth thy stuff by day in their sight, as stuff for removing: and thou shalt go forth at even in their sight, as they that go forth into captivity. Dig thou through the wall in their sight, and carry out thereby. In their sight shalt thou bear it upon thy shoulders, and carry it forth in the twilight: thou shalt cover thy face, that thou see not the ground: for I have set thee for a sign unto the house of Israel. And I did so as I was commanded: I brought forth my stuff by day, as stuff for captivity, and in the "even I digged through the wall with mine hand; I brought it forth in the "twilight, and I bare it upon my shoulder in their sight. And in the "morning came the word of Yahweh unto me…

Notice, even is mentioned as the equivalent or synonymous with twilight and as the above scripture proves, twilight is equivalent or synonymous with darkness and therefore evening is darkness also.

There is not one conclusive scripture that I know of that proves twilight to be anything but dark or that proves sundown to be anything but dark or that proves evening to be anything but dark but I have proved conclusively from the above scriptures that all three is referring to dark.

Job-3:9 "the stars of the twilight their of be dark."

The twilight stars are very bright right after it gets dark in the twilight, not some bogus twilight at dusk or BEFORE dark.

Ps. Ne-13:19 "when the gates of Jerusalem began to be dark "before the Sabbath"

I believe were says "It began to be dark" could be referring to DUSK before the Sabbath which begins at DARK. If it BEGAN to be DARK before the Sabbath does not mean dusk, where would dusk come in at? Therefore the Sabbath day does not began at dusk.

It does not say anything about the sun touching the horizon etc. when it began to be dark before the Sabbath. i.e. the Sabbath would begin at dark, and he goes on to say that after the Sabbath the gates would be opened.

Evening is defined as follows, by Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, and Brown, Drivers, Briggs Hebrew Lexicon:

H6153 / SEC Definition / ›ereb / eh\'-reb / From H6150; dusk” + day, even (-ing, tide), night.

H6153 / ›ereb / BDB Definition: / 1) evening, night, sunset / 1a) evening, sunset / 1b) night

To Historically prove that evening and twilight end a day I offer the following Historical evidence from a time period when the Temple was still standing.

WARS OF THE JEWS book 4 CHAPTER 9 (582)

"(580) but having the advantage of situation, and having withal erected four very large towers aforehand, that their darts might come from higher places, (581) one at the northeast corner of the court, one above the Xystus, the third at another corner over against the lower city, (582) and the last was erected above the top of the Pastophoria, where one of the priests stood of course, and gave a signal beforehand, with a trumpet, at the "Beginning" of every seventh day, in the "evening twilight, as also at the "evening when the "day was finished, as giving notice to the people when they were to "leave off work, and when they were to go to "Work again. (583) These men also set their engines to cast darts and stones withal, upon those towers, with their archers and slingers.

In the above Josephus is saying that the trumpet was blown at evening twilight which is the beginning of every seventh day and at the evening at the end of every seventh day for the people to go back to work again. Remember Josephus is writing this during the time of the destruction of the Temple when the priesthood was still active which conclusively proves the Jews at this time understood the day ends at evening twilight which is dark/conjunction and the day consisted of 24 hours.

Judges 19:8-9

7And when the man rose up to depart, his father in law urged him: therefore he lodged there again. 8And he arose early in the morning on the fifth day to depart: and the damsel's father said, Comfort thine heart, I pray thee. And they tarried until afternoon, and they did eat both of them.

9And when the man rose up to depart, he, and his concubine, and his servant, his father in law, the damsel's father, said unto him, Behold, now the day draweth toward evening, I pray you tarry all night: behold, the day groweth to an end, lodge here, that thine heart may be merry; and to morrow get you early on your way, that thou mayest go home. 10But the man would not tarry that night, but he rose up and departed, "


The man tarried until afternoon, and they did eat both of them, and is told the day is almost over BECAUSE the day draweth toward evening, it was afternoon when he tries to get him to wait another day and leave tomorrow and tomorrow always means the next day. i.e. ALL tomorrows have an evening and morning, in that order, because when the day is over at evening, the morrow begins. It is evident in this case.
Last edited by BrotherArnold on 24 Feb 2008, 04:06, edited 1 time in total.
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...

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Postby JMSchattke » 24 Feb 2008, 01:56

ערב means "mingle" or "mix"
when use of time, it is the time of mixed light, that is, the dusk - the whole period from when it is no longer bright until it is dark.

That's the word translated "evening" in Lev 11. No one at all conversant in Hebrew would suggest that it means when there is no longer light, that is "night" ( ליל). See Gen 1:5

Lev 22:5-7 specifies at the specific time - at the end of he "evening" that the person becomes clean. This, in fact, clearly shows that "evening" is over when the sun goes down ( ב×? הש×?מש×?). This goes back to the misunderstanding you have about time given in the Hebrew - time continues through the stated condition. "until Evening" in the KJV should be read "until the end of the evening."

Now, using Nehemiah for "proof" only shows the practice these returned Jews had learned. That was, by the return from Babylon, they had sundown to sundown as their "cay - and it was so through the new Testament writings.

And I would be absolutely happy to let it be so, except, I can't explain why, if the time was understood as sundown to sundown, Lev 23:32 would need to be as it is.

(HOT+) ש×?בת7676 ש×?בתון7677 הו×?1931 לכ×? וענית×?6031 ×?ת853 נפש×?תיכ×?5315 בתש×?×¢×”8672 לחדש×?2320 בערב6153 מערב6153 עד5704 ערב6153 תש×?בתו7673 ש×?בתכ×?׃7676
(JPS) It shall be unto you a sabbath of solemn rest, and ye shall afflict your souls; in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye keep your sabbath.
(KJV+) It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even, unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.
(TS98) "It is a Sabbath of rest to you, and you shall afflict your beings. On the ninth day of the month at evening, from evening to evening, you observe your Sabbath."

So, that is why I say it was anciently "ninth day was the day of the ninth, nights were not counted as parts of days - either before or after. Later, they decided that nights had to be counted somehow, and made them part of the day which followed them.

This way, they could sight a new moon - and the next day would be the first day of the moon.
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BrotherArnold
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Postby BrotherArnold » 24 Feb 2008, 04:10

Someone wrote,
ערב means "mingle" or "mix"
when use of time, it is the time of mixed light, that is, the dusk - the whole period from when it is no longer bright until it is dark.

RESPONSE; It is easy to say something but can you prove it from Scripture? Can you give just one scripture to support your understanding that evening is dusk instead of dark?

In my above post I gave several Scriptures And Historical Evidence supporting that the Hebrews originally understood evening as dark, I challenge you to do the same.

You wrote,

That's the word translated "evening" in Lev 11. No one at all conversant in Hebrew would suggest that it means when there is no longer light, that is "night" ( ליל). See Gen 1:5

RESPONSE; the children of Israel were conversant in Hebrew and they understood evening to mean when there is no longer light, that is "night", how can you say "No one at all conversant in Hebrew would suggest that it means when there is no longer light, that is "night", when the children of Israel were conversant in Hebrew? Below is scriptural evidence which shows that they understood evening as dark/night.

Proverbs 7:9 in the "twilight in the EVENING, in the black and dark night:"

This proves that they understood that Twilight, EVENING, black and dark NIGHT are all synonymous.


The soul which hath touched any such shall be unclean until even, and shall not eat of the holy things, unless he wash his flesh with water. And when the "sun is down", he shall be clean [LEVITICUS 22:5-7]
Genesis 15:17
"And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark,

Amos 8:9 says "I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:

Micah 3:6 "The sun shall go down over the prophets, and the day shall be dark over them.

"And in the evening I digged through the wall with my hands and brought it fourth in the twilight"

Again Twilight appears to be the early part of the darkness and begins right after dark, at conjunction, and Possibly the darkness right before any light appears in the morning, at conjunction.
[EZEKIEL 12:4-8]

Then shalt thou bring forth thy stuff by day in their sight, as stuff for removing: and thou shalt go forth at even in their sight, as they that go forth into captivity. Dig thou through the wall in their sight, and carry out thereby. In their sight shalt thou bear it upon thy shoulders, and carry it forth in the twilight. and in the "even I digged through the wall with mine hand; I brought it forth in the "twilight, and I bare it upon my shoulder in their sight. And in the "morning came the word of Yahweh unto me…

Notice, that TWILIGHT was AFTER evening and BEFORE morning which conclusively proves twilight was in the dark before morning light. Here it is again, "I digged through the wall with mine hand; I brought it forth in the "twilight, and I bare it upon my shoulder in their sight. And in the "morning came the word of Yahweh unto me…


This conclusively proves that TWILIGHT is during the night/dark and another verse shows that twilight and evening is synonymous i.e. DARK
Even is mentioned as the equivalent or synonymous with twilight and as the above scripture proves, twilight is equivalent or synonymous with darkness and therefore evening is darkness also.

There is not one conclusive scripture that I know of that proves twilight OR EVENING to be anything but dark. There is no scriptures that proves sundown to be anything but dark or that proves evening to be anything but dark but I have proved conclusively from the above scriptures that all three is referring to dark.

Job-3:9 "the stars of the twilight their of be dark."


Ps. Ne-13:19 "when the gates of Jerusalem began to be dark "before the Sabbath"

I do believe were says "It began to be dark" could be referring to DUSK before the Sabbath which begins at DARK. If it BEGAN to be DARK before the Sabbath does not mean dusk, where would dusk come in at? Therefore the Sabbath day does not began at dusk.

WARS OF THE JEWS book 4 CHAPTER 9 (582)
(582) and the last was erected above the top of the Pastophoria, where one of the priests stood of course, and gave a signal beforehand, with a trumpet, at the "Beginning" of every seventh day, in the "evening twilight, as also at the "evening when the "day was finished, as giving notice to the people when they were to "leave off work, and when they were to go to "Work again.

In the above Josephus is saying that the trumpet was blown at evening twilight which is the beginning of every seventh day and at the evening at the end of every seventh day for the people to go back to work again. Remember Josephus is writing this during the time of the destruction of the Temple when the priesthood was still active which conclusively proves the Jews at this time understood the day ends at evening twilight which is dark/conjunction and the day consisted of 24 hours.


Judges 19:8-9

“And they tarried until afternoon, and they did eat both of them.

9And when the man rose up to depart, he, and his concubine, and his servant, his father in law, the damsel's father, said unto him, Behold, now the day draweth toward evening, I pray you tarry all night: behold, the day groweth to an end, lodge here, that thine heart may be merry; and to morrow get you early on your way, that thou mayest go home. 10But the man would not tarry that night, but he rose up and departed, "


The man tarried until afternoon, and they did eat both of them, and is told the day is almost over BECAUSE the day draweth toward EVENING, it was afternoon when he tries to get him to wait another day and leave tomorrow and tomorrow always means the next day. i.e. ALL tomorrows have an evening and morning, in that order, because when the day is over at evening, the morrow begins. It is evident in this case.

Someone wrote,


Lev 22:5-7 specifies at the specific time - at the end of the "evening" that the person becomes clean. This, in fact, clearly shows that "evening" is over when the sun goes down ( ב×? הש×?מש×?).

RESPONSE; it is not specifying at the specific time - at the end of the "evening", BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY that the person becomes clean. This, in fact, clearly shows that "evening" ENDS the day when the sun goes down.

You wrote,


This goes back to the misunderstanding you have about time given in the Hebrew - time continues through the stated condition. "until Evening" in the KJV should be read "until the end of the evening."

RESPONSE; you say the James version should be read "until the end of the evening," but you have no foundation for this in Scripture.

You wrote,

Now, using Nehemiah for "proof" only shows the practice these returned Jews had learned. That was, by the return from Babylon, they had sundown to sundown as their "cay - and it was so through the new Testament writings.

RESPONSE; as I said before it is easy to say something but I have shown from Scripture and the Hebrews understood evening to be dark before anyone went into Babylon captivity. The Babylonians, including Abraham, would have learned the correct calendar from Noah.


You wrote
,


"And I would be absolutely happy to let it be so, except, I can't explain why, if the time was understood as sundown to sundown, Lev 23:32 would need to be as it is.

RESPONSE; it was a repeat for clarification just like Sampson's Mom and dad was told that he would be a Nazarite and was not to eat any grapes or anything from the vine and neither was HE TO EAT ANYTHING UNCLEAN. IF IT WAS ALREADY UNDERSTOOD NOT TO EAT unclean THINGS, WHY REPEAT IT?

According to your logic, it would have been the norm to eat unclean, or why say not to eat unclean?
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



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See www.lunarsabbath.info

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Postby JMSchattke » 24 Feb 2008, 04:27

You don't have to believe me, Arnold. In fact, I already knew you would not when I posted.

I pray that you will one day understand. I can do no more.
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Postby BrotherArnold » 24 Feb 2008, 13:38

JMSchattke wrote:You don't have to believe me, Arnold. In fact, I already knew you would not when I posted.

I pray that you will one day understand. I can do no more.


RESPONSE; you will have to be more specific as to what you knew that I would not believe. I asked for Scripture to support what you were saying and instead you gave me in the above. You can help me believe you if you will give me a Scripture to support your understanding that evening is not night. I gave you CONCLUSIVE Scripture showing that evening was night/dark. You did not give scripture so why should I believe you? (maybe this is why you knew I would not believe you) I gave you Scripture and you do not believe me, it is not me that you do not believe, but it is the Scripture that I gave, that you do not believe because goes against your theology or tradition. At least that is how it appears to me. I am only trying to help you to re-examine your doctrine.

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

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Postby LittleKangaDrinkingWine » 24 Feb 2008, 14:22

Arnold, you wrote:

Proverbs 7:9 in the "Twilight" in the EVENING, in the black and dark night:"

This proves that they understood that Twilight, EVENING, black and dark NIGHT are all synonymous.

LKDW: The only reason, I'm not in this thread totally debunking eveything you have said in this post is because (respectfully) you are the hardest head on the forum and you will not listen to reason.

LKDW: I've stated this to you over and over again. The word twilight in Proverbs 7:9 has Yowm tacted on it to denote that it speaks of the lighted portion of the day. Look it up, Arnold. Look at the interlinear and read it for yourself.

LKDW: Twilight is not the same thing as night or darkness and this is just one of the examples of gross mistranslation on this subject by the Judao-Christian scriptures we have today.

LKDW: I've come to the conclusion that you can not put new wine (a restored understanding or renewed truth) in an old wine skin (Arnold Bowen), “loving grin”

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Postby eriqbenel » 24 Feb 2008, 15:53

LittleKangaDrinkingWine wrote:Arnold, you wrote:

Proverbs 7:9 in the "Twilight" in the EVENING, in the black and dark night:"

This proves that they understood that Twilight, EVENING, black and dark NIGHT are all synonymous.

LKDW: The only reason, I'm not in this thread totally debunking eveything you have said in this post is because (respectfully) you are the hardest head on the forum and you will not listen to reason.


Said the pot to the kettle...

LKDW: I've stated this to you over and over again. The word twilight in Proverbs 7:9 has Yowm tacted on it to denote that it speaks of the lighted portion of the day. Look it up, Arnold. Look at the interlinear and read it for yourself.


I have looked it up in several sources and that is false. The word "yowm" is NOT "tacked on to it". AND even if it were, "yowm" does NOT necessarily denote the "lighted portion of the day.

The word "yowm" is a BASIC CONCEPT OF TIME in the OT Hebrew, used to express a wide ranging view of time, INCLUDING DARK.

LKDW: Twilight is not the same thing as night or darkness and this is just one of the examples of gross mistranslation on this subject by the Judao-Christian scriptures we have today.


Twilight was the same to the author of Proverbs. Every single time Scripture says something that clearly and plainly contradicts your beliefs, it is either a translation or interpretation problem of someone else! How convenient.

LKDW: I've come to the conclusion that you can not put new wine (a restored understanding or renewed truth) in an old wine skin (Arnold Bowen), >loving grin<

LKDW



Theres your problem. The truth has never gone any where. It doesn't need to be "restored" or "renewed". Just because some of us were ignorant, doesn't mean the truth was hidden. The truth has always been there, right in plain sight! Some of US were just blind. Some of US still are.

Your addictive need to be on the "cutting edge" of "renewed truth" is what is blinding you. You are a "revelation junkie". More and more you refuse to believe something unless it is something that most people have never heard or thought of. Many false doctrines, cults and denominations were started this way.
Shalom in the name of YHWH,

Eriq

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Postby JMSchattke » 24 Feb 2008, 16:03

Pro 7:9 בנשׁףH5399 בערבH6153 יוםH3117 באישׁוןH380 לילהH3915 ואפלה׃H653


b\'nesheph b\'ereb yowm - in the dusk, in the evening of the day
b\'iyshon layilah v\'apelah - in the midnight night's concealment

it is a poetic listing of the times... and the crosswise style of Hebrew poetry often does this with two contrasting ideas.

In point of fact, this scripture makes it VERY clear nesheph an ereb are not the same times as iyshon or layil
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Postby LittleKangaDrinkingWine » 24 Feb 2008, 19:14

The following is from the Lexicon located at Studylight.org. Notice the star after the word evening in verse 9. That star is a foot note to the verse and when you click on that foot note, you read what is below the verses.

Proverbs 7:6-23 [ Verse 9 in Original: Hebrew / Greek ]
[ Read Chapter | Discuss these Verses ]
6 For at the window of my house I looked (8738) through my casement, 7 And beheld (8799) among the simple ones, I discerned (8799) among the youths, a young man void of understanding, 8 Passing through (8802) the street near her corner; and he went (8799) the way to her house, 9 In the twilight, in the evening *, in the black and dark night: 10 And, behold, there met (8800) him a woman with the attire of an harlot (8802), and subtil (8803) of heart.

The foot note is as follows.

Strong's Number: 03117 ewy
Original Word Word Origin
ewy from an unused root meaning to be hot
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
Yowm yome
Parts of Speech TWOT
Noun Masculine 852
Definition
day, time, year
day (as opposed to night)
day (24 hour period)
as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1
as a division of time 1b
a working day, a day's journey
days, lifetime (pl.)
time, period (general)
year
temporal references
today
yesterday
tomorrow

Eric, I was wrong. Arnold does not have the hardest head. He's a distant second to only you. Evening here is not night. It's a part of the daylight hours.

LKDW

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Postby eriqbenel » 24 Feb 2008, 21:34

LittleKangaDrinkingWine wrote:The following is from the Lexicon located at Studylight.org. Notice the star after the word evening in verse 9. That star is a foot note to the verse and when you click on that foot note, you read what is below the verses.

Proverbs 7:6-23 [ Verse 9 in Original: Hebrew / Greek ]
[ Read Chapter | Discuss these Verses ]
6 For at the window of my house I looked (8738) through my casement, 7 And beheld (8799) among the simple ones, I discerned (8799) among the youths, a young man void of understanding, 8 Passing through (8802) the street near her corner; and he went (8799) the way to her house, 9 In the twilight, in the evening *, in the black and dark night: 10 And, behold, there met (8800) him a woman with the attire of an harlot (8802), and subtil (8803) of heart.

The foot note is as follows.

Strong's Number: 03117 ewy
Original Word Word Origin
ewy from an unused root meaning to be hot
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
Yowm yome
Parts of Speech TWOT
Noun Masculine 852
Definition
day, time, year
day (as opposed to night)
day (24 hour period)
as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1
as a division of time 1b
a working day, a day's journey
days, lifetime (pl.)
time, period (general) year
temporal references
today
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Eric, I was wrong. Arnold does not have the hardest head. He's a distant second to only you. Evening here is not night. It's a part of the daylight hours.

LKDW




Joey, I was right... you are blind.... especially if you can't see that your own footnote quote proves MY POINT!

I added boldness and italics to help you see better... Evening IS night in that passage according to the context.
Shalom in the name of YHWH,



Eriq

LittleKangaDrinkingWine
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Postby LittleKangaDrinkingWine » 25 Feb 2008, 01:42

Unbelievable.

BrotherArnold
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Postby BrotherArnold » 25 Feb 2008, 02:53

LittleKangaDrinkingWine wrote:Arnold, you wrote:

Proverbs 7:9 in the "Twilight" in the EVENING, in the black and dark night:"

This proves that they understood that Twilight, EVENING, black and dark NIGHT are all synonymous.

LKDW: The only reason, I'm not in this thread totally debunking eveything you have said in this post is because (respectfully) you are the hardest head on the forum and you will not listen to reason.

LKDW: I've stated this to you over and over again. The word twilight in Proverbs 7:9 has Yowm tacted on it to denote that it speaks of the lighted portion of the day. Look it up, Arnold. Look at the interlinear and read it for yourself.

LKDW: Twilight is not the same thing as night or darkness and this is just one of the examples of gross mistranslation on this subject by the Judao-Christian scriptures we have today.

LKDW: I've come to the conclusion that you can not put new wine (a restored understanding or renewed truth) in an old wine skin (Arnold Bowen), >loving grin<

LKDW



RESPONSE; Shalom All,

The point I am trying to make is, it doesn't really matter what we think EVENING, TWILIGHT, or SUNDOWN is, we need to know the Hebrew understanding of these words. i.e. how did men like Solomon, Ezekiel and Job understand these words as to what they meant hundreds of years ago????

When Solomon wrote Proverbs 7:9 "In the "TWILIGHt" in the EVENING, in the BLACK and DARK NIGHT:", he understood the Hebrew words for TWILIGHT, EVENING, BLACK, DARK, NIGHT were synonymous. It would be like me saying at 10:00 p.m. (instead of twilight) in the evening in the black and dark night. We understand that 10:00 p.m. is dark and they understood that twilight was dark. It's that simple. If I made a statement like that and someone tried to argue that 10:00 p.m. is not dark you would think they are crazy or had some doctrine to protect.

There's no way that Ezekiel could say that AT EVENING he dug through the wall and brought something out at TWILIGHT and in the MORNING YHWH spoke to him, without understanding that twilight was dark. It would be like me saying that at evening I dug through the wall and AT 10 p.m. (INSTEAD OF TWILIGHT) I brought something out and in the MORNING YHWH spoke to me and said"¦

When someone says to us, "That man is GAY", we think of a QUEER but before, people would think of it as saying "That man is HAPPY". Definitions of words change over the years and I believe that DUSK could have originally carried the understand of dark or the beginning of dark. How do we know that Strong's did not understanding word for dusk to mean the beginning of dark/evening? How do we know that Strong's did not understanding word for twilight to mean the same thing that Solomon, Ezekiel and Job meant???

We cannot depend on man's definition of words and put them above what the Scriptures saying. We must let the Word be true and not man.
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

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JMSchattke
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Postby JMSchattke » 25 Feb 2008, 08:15

Arnold... the time spoken of as "night" in that verse is specifically midnight. Not evening. I thought I had made that clear.

Midnight (ishyon) is never evening (ereb). And certainly twilight (nesheph) would preclude midnight (ishyon), too.

As I have said before, you can't make crucial decisions of doctrine and understanding based on a translation. Not even based on MY translations, which will generally be somewhat better than those in the KJV (mainly because the KJV uses archaic terminology, and was translated by people who had a misunderstanding of basic tenets of Law and Doctrine). Really, if you want to teach about the truth - or even debate about, as you try here - you need to know the language the stuff was written in. Otherwise, you're in way over your head.
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Postby BrotherArnold » 25 Feb 2008, 11:32

The following will show that the Hebrew scholars who translated the Hebrew word for "twilight" into Greek, wanted the Greek Jews to understand that the word twilight means dark.

As I said before, we need to get the Hebrew thought on what a Word meant, not what we think, and in the Septuagint, the Hebrew translators caused the Greek speaking Jews to understand the Hebrew word for TWILIGHT meant DARK. In Job 3:9, it says "Let the stars that NIGHT be dark" instead of "Let the stars of the TWILIGHT thereof be dark".

This tells us that the Hebrews wanted the Greek people to understand the Hebrew word for twilight meant night/dark. This is a second witness.

The Septuagint also says "the eye of the adulterer has watched for the "DARKNESS instead of "The eye also of the adulterer waiteth for the "TWILIGHT

This conclusively shows how the ancient people understood that the Hebrew Word "TWILIGHT" meant "DARK" we also know it meant that from the context of the Hebrew and Greek text. Context shows the meaning of a Word, not modern-day man's definition. The Scripture is true, not man.

Proverbs 7:9 in the Septuagint reads, "Passing by the corner of the passage near her house, and speaking, in the "DARK" of the EVENING when there happens to be the stillness of the NIGHT and of DARKNESS"?

Notice again, the original understanding of "TWILIGHT" was the "DARK" of the EVENING instead of TWILIGHT. I know this messes up
A lot of people's theology and doctrines, but fact is fact. Of course you could say that these people were hardheaded because they don't believe as you do but that does not change the fact either.

Remember that a translation is to convey a Word or thought into another language so that they can get the message. The message that they convey in the Septuagint to the Greek people was that twilight and evening was dark. Why would they have done this if it were not so? The context of the Hebrew also conveys the same message. Remember this is in harmony with Genesis one, darkness/night/evening AND the morning/light/day was Day one. i.e. ALL of the evening darkness and ALL of the morning light, all the way of up unto the next evening was the first day.

I am still awaiting someone to produce one shred of evidence from Scripture, that twilight means anything other than dark.
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

kathybyers2000
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Morning/evening

Postby kathybyers2000 » 25 Feb 2008, 13:37

Something to consider:

Jhn 20:1 “The first [day] of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

And later in the writing in regards to the same day:

Jhn 20:19 “Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you


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