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Scriptures to ignore, if there is no Lunar Sabbath

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Luneee
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Scriptures to ignore, if there is no Lunar Sabbath

Postby Luneee » 03 Feb 2008, 15:50

I found this to be a good read. Enjoy.

FOR THE RECORD, I realize that I can convince no one that the Lunar Sabbath is right. I am not trying to do that, nor is it a command of scripture for me to convince others. I am only posting this for information. I am interested in discussion, but not argument. :mrgreen:

Jay Vincent.

*****************************************************



Found at: http://www.creationcalendar.com



If the Sabbath is not regulated by the Moon, Here is a list of scriptures that you need to ignore.


It genuinely amazes me when someone says there is no proof in Scripture or the historical record that the original Sabbath was observed by the phases of the moon. Most of the time, this is a statement made by someone who has really not studied the issue thoroughly. If you wish to maintain that the Rabbinical Sabbath (Satyrday) is the only valid interpretation, I respectfully present a list of 21 categories of Scripture you must ignore, disregard or spiritualize away. This is not an exhaustive list…

1. Leviticus 23:1-3 says the Sabbath is the first of the Mo'edim (feasts-Strong's H#4150), so you can ignore Genesis 1:14 (heavenly luminaries are for Mo'edim), and Psalms 104:19 (moon for Mo'edim).

2. If you think the Sabbath is NOT a Mo'ed, then ignore all of the following passages of Scripture: Numbers 15:3, I Chronicles 23:31, II Chronicles 2:4, II Chronicles 8:13, II Chronicles 31:3, Ezra 3:5, Nehemiah 10:33-34, Ezekiel 45:17, and Hosea 2:11.

3. Ignore that the Exodus was on Sabbath, the 15th of Abib (Numbers 33:3, Deuteronomy 5:12-15, Psalm 81:4-6).

4. Please disregard as a coincidence that the 8th day of the same month is called a set time or Mo'ed in Hebrew (Exodus 9:5).

5. Ignore that the 15th day of the second month was also the Sabbath (Exodus 16:1). Manna fell for 6 days after the 15th. They gathered twice as much on the 6th day (the 21st day of the month, 15 + 6 = 21) because the following day was the Sabbath. If the 22nd was the Sabbath, so was the 15th.

15
16 17 18 19 20 21 22

6. Disregard the fact that on the 15th day of the third month Israel departed from “Rephidim" which means rest (Exodus 19:2), inferring that the 15th day of the month for three consecutive months has been a weekly Sabbath, which cannot happen with the pagan/papal Gregorian calendar. The Gregorian can produce a weekly Sabbath for TWO consecutive months IF a February of a non-leap year is the first month (and assuming that the 15th of February just happens to be a Satyrday). February did not exist 4,000 years ago.

Point to Ponder: A calendar tells you when to worship. WHEN you worship tells heaven and the on-looking universe WHO you worship. It's that serious! The Gregorian calendar is only a little over 420 years old and came into existence at the hand of a Jesuit astronomer and Pope Gregory XIII.

7. Normally, I like 2-3 witnesses (texts) in order to prove a doctrine, but I will lower that standard to even ONE passage in Scripture that says that Satyrday is the Sabbath. When you cannot find one, please ignore that as evidence.
8. Please disregard the fact that the daily sacrifices of Numbers chapters 28-29 are offered in addition to the sacrifices of the weekly Sabbath and annual feasts, and that the monthly offering is offered in addition on Yom Teruah (Feast of Trumpets), the first day of the seventh month. But the Sabbath offering is never offered if it "Just happend"? to fall on one of the feast days. There are no coincidences in Scripture.

9. that Numbers 28:12-35 shows eight days where the first and last (15th and 22nd) are Sabbaths. There is no provision for a Sabbath to "Just happen to fall in the middle somewhere" because the Sabbaths are fixed, they fall on the same days each month.

10. how Exodus 40 through Leviticus 8 describes the seven days of consecration for Aaron and his sons (starting on Rosh Chodesh)”the new moon or first day of the month) without the intervention of a Sabbath, and how the Sabbath fell on the 8th, the day AFTER the 7 day consecration. This seven day stretch was a new moon and 6 work days if you're counting.

11. Try to spiritualize away the battle of Jericho (Joshua 6:1-16), and how every day for seven days, Israel dressed for battle, carried every weapon at their disposal AND carried the Ark of the Covenant into this battle. Which begs the question: Which day of this 7 day battle was the Sabbath?

Point to Ponder: For 40 years, YHWH taught Israel how to keep the Sabbath. Are we to believe that His first instructions after entering the land was to break the Sabbath by engaging in battle? Come now, let us reason together. The Book of Jasher, twice mentioned in Scripture, gives an account of this battle adding only one small detail. This 7 day battle began on a new moon day (Day 1). Day one is followed by six working days (2-7). The first Sabbath of each month is the 8th day of the month. Israel marched around Jericho for 7 consecutive days (1-7) and did not break the Sabbath, as they observed the Creation Calendar"
1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8

12. Please disregard the dozen times in the Old Testament that Rosh Chodesh and the weekly Sabbath are uttered in the same breath, especially those which show a connection between them (Amos 8:5, II Kings 4:23, etc. See #2)

13. Try to spiritualize away the fact that new moon days are always excluded from the work days and Sabbaths (Ezekiel 46:1-3, Isaiah 66:23, and Amos 8:5). New moon day is a 3rd category of day. It is the first day of the month, but not a day of the week, which consists of 6 work days and a Sabbath.

Point to Ponder: Ever wondered why the new moon can now fall on any day of the month? Answer: "In 46 B.C., Julius Caesar asked astronomer Sosigenes to suggest ways to improve the calendar. Acting on Sosigenes suggestions, Caesar ordered the Romans to disregard the moon in calculating their calendars. World Book Encyclopedia, Vol. 3, p. 28. See Dan. 7:25 and Rev. 13:3.

14. the total lack of postponement rules in the Torah dealing with the inevitable conflicts between Satyrday and YHWH's other appointed timed"”and be thankful that Hillel II, a Jewish priest, added them for you, to "Repair" what YHWH had ordained.

15. the counting of the Omer given in Leviticus 23:15-16, and instead of counting it exclusively as commanded, (to count seven Sabbaths complete, then count 50 days) change it to inclusive to "Make it work" using the Gregorian calendar (49 + 1).

16. Please disregard the fact that David only set 24 courses of Temple service (I Chronicles 23-24), which of course works fine with 48 week lunar-based years, but self-destructs if the weeks are detached from the months, resulting in 18 days with no Temple service. Sorry, closed " gone fishin’. Solution: There are Temple services on these 18 days. They are new moon days, see #13.

17. Don't forget to ignore that all 4 Gospel writers call the 16th day of the month the first day of the week, indicating that the 15th was the Sabbath. (Matthew 28:1, Mark 16:2, Luke 24:1, John 20:1, 19). The 15th of Abib was a high Sabbath (weekly and annual Sabbath) EVERY year.

18. Disregard Lucifer's boast (Isaiah 14:13) that he will sit on the "Mount of the congregation, (this word "Congregation" is Mo'edim again). Satan is claiming his authority over the calendar to create appointed times contrary to YHWH's.

19. Spiritualize away Amod" prophecy that Israel would worship "chiun (Saturn) the star god you made for yourselves" Amos 5:26.

20. Consider it purely coincidence that every weekly Sabbath in the Scripture which can be clearly date-identified, is on the 8th-15th-22nd-29th days of the Chodesh (month) without a single exception. Even history records a lunar regulated Sabbath.

"The Hebrew Sabbathon was celebrated at intervals of seven days, corresponding with changes in the moon's phased"¦ Encyclopedia Biblica, 1899 edit., p. 4180

"In the time of the earliest prophets, the New Moon stood in the same line with another lunar observance, the Sabbath. Scribner's Dictionary of the Bible (1898 edit.), p. 521

21. Also disregard the total lack of Scriptures telling us to observe quarterly Sabbaths, every 91 days, or other holidays based on Egyptian or Babylonian calendars. There is no reason to return to the bondage of Egypt or the confusion of Babylon, please see Isaiah 8:20.

There you have it, a list (or lack) of Scriptures to ignore. If you are not yet convinced to get off the Gregorian Express, at the very least, admit that the original Sabbath, based on the cycles of the moon, is a valid interpretation of Scripture, and do not condemn your brethren who are led to observe it.

The cloud is moving. We need either to follow or be left in the wilderness.

Respectfully submitted,

Troy Miller
www.CreationCalendar.com

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Postby JMSchattke » 04 Feb 2008, 06:11

First:
Gregorian and Julian Calendars have nothing to do with this debate.
Second:
"Saturday," as such, has nothing to do with this debate. The seventh day cycle could just as easily wound up on "Monday" or "Thursday." The Romans made a conscious choice to change their week to end on the same cyclical seventh day as the Jews already used.

Now:
1Chr 23 mentions nothing about the time each course serves. Or even that each course serves for ANY length of time. We have historical records indicating that the courses did not always have the same weeks of a year. And even if it was two weeks, that would STILL not work out on those years when an additional month is needed.

Amos 8:5 Can be read as exclusionary or additional. Similarly with the 2ki verse. Overlapping sets can still be mentioned.

Those are all I bothered to rebut for now.
Wandering Kernel of Happiness

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Postby chuckbaldwin » 05 Feb 2008, 06:34

Hello Jay,

It's too time consuming to try and address every point mentioned, and since Troy wrote it, i would really rather be talking to him. However, since you pasted it in your post, i decided to look at 1 specific point:
2. If you think the Sabbath is NOT a Mo’ed, then ignore all of the following passages of Scripture: Numbers 15:3, I Chronicles 23:31, II Chronicles 2:4, II Chronicles 8:13, II Chronicles 31:3, Ezra 3:5, Nehemiah 10:33-34, Ezekiel 45:17, and Hosea 2:11.
I thought i'd be fair, and look up each Scripture given.

Well, the 1st one (Num.15:3) does have the word Moed, but no mention of the Sabbath, so i have no idea why Troy listed it.

I gave up after the 2nd Scripture (1Chr.23:31), because it actually DISPROVES the Sabbath being a "Biblically defined Moed". Notice:
31 And to offer all burnt sacrifices unto YHWH in the sabbaths, in the new moons, and on the set feasts (4150=Moedim), by number, according to the order commanded unto them, continually before YHWH:
Notice this verse lists 3 separate things:
1. Sabbaths,
2. New moons,
3. Moedim.
Since he gave 1 verse that is irrelevent, and a 2nd verse that disproves his case, i didn't bother looking at the rest.
Chuck Baldwin
By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

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Postby BrotherArnold » 05 Feb 2008, 12:46

chuckbaldwin wrote:Hello Jay,

It's too time consuming to try and address every point mentioned, and since Troy wrote it, i would really rather be talking to him. However, since you pasted it in your post, i decided to look at 1 specific point:
2. If you think the Sabbath is NOT a Mo’ed, then ignore all of the following passages of Scripture: Numbers 15:3, I Chronicles 23:31, II Chronicles 2:4, II Chronicles 8:13, II Chronicles 31:3, Ezra 3:5, Nehemiah 10:33-34, Ezekiel 45:17, and Hosea 2:11.
I thought i'd be fair, and look up each Scripture given.

Well, the 1st one (Num.15:3) does have the word Moed, but no mention of the Sabbath, so i have no idea why Troy listed it.

I gave up after the 2nd Scripture (1Chr.23:31), because it actually DISPROVES the Sabbath being a "Biblically defined Moed". Notice:
31 And to offer all burnt sacrifices unto YHWH in the sabbaths, in the new moons, and on the set feasts (4150=Moedim), by number, according to the order commanded unto them, continually before YHWH:
Notice this verse lists 3 separate things:
1. Sabbaths,


2. New moons,
3. Moedim.
Since he gave 1 verse that is irrelevent, and a 2nd verse that disproves his case, i didn't bother looking at the rest.


RESPONSE;

Shalom Brother Chuck,

Surely you're not trying to say that the weekly Sabbath IS NOT A WORSHIP MOED/holy convocation that is mentioned in Leviticus 23:2-3 where it says, "these are My feasts/Moed's, HOLLY convocations" and if you're not trying to say that, which I hope you're not, then I don't understand your rebuttal, unless you ARE suggesting that the weekly Sabbath is NOT a WORSHIP Moed. It seems you do have more time than you let on.

You said, "thought i'd be fair, and look up each Scripture given". Brother Chuck, Troy was trying to show that the weekly Sabbath is a worship Moed and just because he did not mentioned a conclusive proof of this that is found in Leviticus 23:2-3, Someone reading your response would possibly think that you do not believe that the weekly Sabbath is a worship Moed, is that fair?



Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...

Brother Arnold
See www.lunarsabbath.info

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Postby Luneee » 05 Feb 2008, 14:40

chuckbaldwin wrote:I gave up after the 2nd Scripture (1Chr.23:31), because it actually DISPROVES the Sabbath being a "Biblically defined Moed".
Notice:
31 And to offer all burnt sacrifices unto YHWH in the sabbaths, in the new moons, and on the set feasts (4150=Moedim), by number, according to the order commanded unto them, continually before YHWH:

Notice this verse lists 3 separate things:
1. Sabbaths,
2. New moons,
3. Moedim.



(this is an edit.) I noticed that you skipped right over Leviticus 23:1-3, which is the first verse listed. I also notice that you skipped over Psalm 104:19 "He made the moon for appointed times[moedim]; The sun knows its going down." Can you address these scriptures, or tell us what they means? Thanks.(end edit)

I am not getting this. Could you help me understand how 1 Chronicles 23:31, by listing the sabbath before saying "and on the set feasts."

I really try to look at everything closely, and the word "set" seems to be throwing me off. I believe the new moon is set, and I believe the Sabbath is set.

I ask you to point out my error on these two beliefs, if you can show me where they are wrong.

Concerning "set feasts," Leviticus 23:2-3 actually says that the Sabbath is a feast (moedim).

Verse 2: Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
Verse 3: Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

If you could help me understand how Leviticus 23 is wrong, or my reading of it is wrong, I invite that.

Second, I am not understanding how 1 Chronicles 23:31 disproves the Sabbath being a biblically defined Moedim.

Thanks for your consideration of these problems.

Shalom,

Jay Vincent.

chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 05 Feb 2008, 21:16

BrotherArnold wrote:RESPONSESurely you're not trying to say that the weekly Sabbath IS NOT A WORSHIP MOED/holy convocation that is mentioned in Leviticus 23:2-3 where it says, "these are My feasts/Moed's, HOLLY convocations" and if you're not trying to say that, which I hope you're not, then I don't understand your rebuttal, unless you ARE suggesting that the weekly Sabbath is NOT a WORSHIP Moed. It seems you do have more time than you let on.
Hi Arnold,

Since the term "WORSHIP MOED" is not found in Scripture, i'm not saying anything an relation to that term. Part of the 3+1/2 year "tribulation" that i just went through includes 2 completely separate arguments, both of which suggest that the weekly Sabbath is NOT a "Moed" as used in Scripture. It's not my intention to repeat 3+1/2 years of debate. But in case you have forgotten the discussion of "HEORTE" (Feast) vs "KAIROS" (Appointed TIME), and the discussion of "RESUMPTIVE REPETITION" (which i think i've already explained on THIS forum); to refresh your memory and for Jay who may not have heard these things, i'll include an explanation in my response to Jay's post, shortly.

BTW, X-Mass is a HOLLY convocation; YHWH's Feasts are HOLY Convocations. :P
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 05 Feb 2008, 22:05

Luneee wrote:
chuckbaldwin wrote:I gave up after the 2nd Scripture (1Chr.23:31), because it actually DISPROVES the Sabbath being a "Biblically defined Moed".
Notice:
31 And to offer all burnt sacrifices unto YHWH in the sabbaths, in the new moons, and on the set feasts (4150=Moedim), by number, according to the order commanded unto them, continually before YHWH:
Notice this verse lists 3 separate things:
1. Sabbaths,
2. New moons,
3. Moedim.
I noticed that you skipped right over Leviticus 23:1-3, which is the first verse listed. I also notice that you skipped over Psalm 104:19 "He made the moon for appointed times[moedim]; The sun knows its going down." Can you address these scriptures, or tell us what they means? Thanks
Hello Jay,

I am not guilty of "skipping" anything. i said right upfront: It's too time consuming to try and address every point mentioned... I simply picked the item that caught my eye, and was the easiest to look at. Lev.23:1-4 is a bit involved, so i'll address it at the end. Ps.104:19 is very simple - it doesn't say that the moon is appointed for ALL Moedim. A good example is the daily sacrifices. Assuming the morning sacrifice was about 9am, HOW does the moon tell you it's 9am?

Plus, as i explained to Arnold, the weekly Sabbath may not even be a Scriptural "Moed".

And please note that i'm not trying to talk you out of lunar Sabbaths; i'm only showing why i personally have "reasonable doubt".
I am not getting this. Could you help me understand how 1 Chronicles 23:31, by listing the sabbath before saying "and on the set feasts."

I really try to look at everything closely, and the word "set" seems to be throwing me off. I believe the new moon is set, and I believe the Sabbath is set.
The word set is not the issue. The issue is that the term translated "set feasts" IS the word "Moedim", and it is listed distinct from the Sabbath, and from the New Moon. The 3 things are distinct from each other (although some may occasionally coincide). But ...
The Sabbaths are not the New Moons,
The Sabbaths are not the "Moedim" (trans. Set Feasts),
The New Moons are not the "Moedim".
Concerning "set feasts," Leviticus 23:2-3 actually says that the Sabbath is a feast (moedim).
No, it actually says ONE (feast) or the OTHER (moed), not both. This relates to 1 of the 2 arguments i mentioned earlier. You quoted the passage below. I have added verse 4 to tie in with the 2nd argument.
Verse 2: Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts ????? of YHWH, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
Verse 3: Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of YHWH in all your dwellings.
Verse 4: These are the feasts of YHWH, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

If you could help me understand how Leviticus 23 is wrong, or my reading of it is wrong, I invite that.
Lev.23 isn't "wrong", but its INTERPRETATION is in question.

FIRST - THE "HEORTE" VS "KAIROS" / "CHAG" VS "MOED" ARGUMENT:

In the Masoretic Hebrew text (MT), both verses 2 & 4 have the word "Moedim" translated "Feasts". BUT, in the Septuagint (LXX), v2 has "Heorte" (Feast), while v4 has "Kairos" (Moed). Allowing that the LXX is correct (i.e. translated from an older hebrew text than the MT), this suggests that EVEN IF "Feasts" in v2 is talking about the Sabbath in v3, it's not referring to it as a Moed".

SECOND - THE "RESUMPTIVE REPETITION" ARGUMENT:

Now assuming that the LXX is NOT correct... Have you ever wondered WHY v4 is an almost identical repeat of v2, with v3 (about the Sabbath) kinda sandwiched in between? Some scholars believe that this is a literary usage of what is called "resumptive repetition" (RR), where some subject is being discussed, then a parenthetical or explanatory phrase or paragraph is interjected, then the original subject is resumed by repeating the last thought given before the interruption. Public speakers and writers do this all the time without hardly thinking about it. It's purpose is to restore the continuity of the main subject.

I believe that Lev.23:2 & 4 is a case of "RR", with v3 about the Sabbath thrown in as a parenthetical thought before listing the actual "Moedim".

Now you know why i didn't pick THAT passage to explain. :mrgreen:
I expect Arnold to respond with several pages of argument. Please don't think me rude if i don't reply to Arnold, since i have already replied many times to identical arguments on the "other" forum.
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

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Postby Luneee » 05 Feb 2008, 23:38

chuckbaldwin wrote:Hello Jay,

I am not guilty of "skipping" anything.


I apologize if it seemed I was judging you guilty of anything. That was not my intent.

chuckbaldwin wrote: i said right upfront: It's too time consuming to try and address every point mentioned... I simply picked the item that caught my eye, and was the easiest to look at. Lev.23:1-4 is a bit involved, so i'll address it at the end. Ps.104:19 is very simple - it doesn't say that the moon is appointed for ALL Moedim.


I agree, the word "all" is not in that verse.

Is it your contention that the exclusion of the word "all" means that Shabbat is specifically excluded from the moedim meant by Psalm 104:19?
chuckbaldwin wrote:A good example is the daily sacrifices. Assuming the morning sacrifice was about 9am, HOW does the moon tell you it's 9am?


I really don't know that I am supposed to assume. So I don't know how to answer that based on an assumption.

chuckbaldwin wrote:Plus, as i explained to Arnold, the weekly Sabbath may not even be a Scriptural "Moed".


I haven't reached the end yet, where you explain Leviticus 23, but disclaimers jump out at me. The words "may not" are not definite. How can it be definitely determined whether or not the Sabbath is a Scriptural Moed, apart from Leviticus 23 saying so?

chuckbaldwin wrote:And please note that i'm not trying to talk you out of lunar Sabbaths; i'm only showing why i personally have "reasonable doubt".


Then we both understand that we cannot talk each other into anything, and just so you no, my intent is not to try to either. :mrgreen:



chuckbaldwin wrote:The word set is not the issue. The issue is that the term translated "set feasts" IS the word "Moedim", and it is listed distinct from the Sabbath, and from the New Moon. The 3 things are distinct from each other (although some may occasionally coincide). But ...
The Sabbaths are not the New Moons,
The Sabbaths are not the "Moedim" (trans. Set Feasts),


Do you have proof of this last statement that the Sabbaths are not the Moedim?

Luneee wrote:Concerning "set feasts," Leviticus 23:2-3 actually says that the Sabbath is a feast (moedim).


chuckbaldwin wrote:No, it actually says ONE (feast) or the OTHER (moed), not both.


Can you point out where it says one feast or the other Moed and not both?

So Leviticus 23:1-3 is wrong? or is my understanding of "are" wrong? (My appointed times are these:) I understand "are" to be the Second person singular and plural and first and third person plural present indicative of be, and I understand "be" to mean "to occupy a place or position." (Just so you know my thinking.)

Lev 23:1 And יהוה spoke to Mosheh, saying,
Lev 23:2 “Speak to the children of Yisra’ĕl, and say to them, ‘The appointed times of יהוה, which you are to proclaim as set-apart gatherings, My appointed times, are these:
Lev 23:3 ‘Six days work is done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a set-apart gathering. You do no work, it is a Sabbath to יהוה in all your dwellings.

chuckbaldwin wrote:This relates to 1 of the 2 arguments i mentioned earlier.


I still cannot see where it is says ONE (feast) or the OTHER (moed), not both.

chuckbaldwin wrote: You quoted the passage below. I have added verse 4 to tie in with the 2nd argument.


Luneee wrote:Verse 2: Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts ????? of YHWH, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
Verse 3: Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of YHWH in all your dwellings.
Verse 4: These are the feasts of YHWH, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

If you could help me understand how Leviticus 23 is wrong, or my reading of it is wrong, I invite that.
chuckbaldwin wrote:Lev.23 isn't "wrong", but its INTERPRETATION is in question.

FIRST - THE "HEORTE" VS "KAIROS" / "CHAG" VS "MOED" ARGUMENT:

In the Masoretic Hebrew text (MT), both verses 2 & 4 have the word "Moedim" translated "Feasts". BUT, in the Septuagint (LXX), v2 has "Heorte" (Feast), while v4 has "Kairos" (Moed). Allowing that the LXX is correct (i.e. translated from an older hebrew text than the MT), this suggests that EVEN IF "Feasts" in v2 is talking about the Sabbath in v3, it's not referring to it as a Moed".


This lost me. But, since it appears to me to be speculative ("Allowing that" "this suggests" and "IF") I presume that this is not definitive.

However, I do notice an interesting point that I never saw before this exchange. The first time feasts are mentioned, there is no mention of "in their seasons." The second time, the "in their seasons" is there, and the moedim that follow the second mention are indeed seasonal (happening once a year, as opposed to once a week). Does this turn any lights on for you, in relation to the Heorte vs. Kairos? I assure you I am not being sarcastic or cynical. I truly don't get the septuagint introduction at this time.

chuckbaldwin wrote:
SECOND - THE "RESUMPTIVE REPETITION" ARGUMENT:

Now assuming that the LXX is NOT correct...


I really shun assumption. So, this is irrelevant, unless proven, and I am too new to have experienced this proof yet.

chuckbaldwin wrote:Have you ever wondered WHY v4 is an almost identical repeat of v2, with v3 (about the Sabbath) kinda sandwiched in between?


I believe I just discovered that. I believe the Sabbath, being repeated every week, is listed as such a moedim, and the seasonal moedim are listed subsequently. Tell me what you think about that.

chuckbaldwin wrote:
Some scholars believe that this is a literary usage of what is called "resumptive repetition" (RR), where some subject is being discussed, then a parenthetical or explanatory phrase or paragraph is interjected, then the original subject is resumed by repeating the last thought given before the interruption. Public speakers and writers do this all the time without hardly thinking about it. It's purpose is to restore the continuity of the main subject.


I am not seeing the relevance, in light of the seasonal vs non-seasonal moedim.

I believe that Lev.23:2 & 4 is a case of "RR", with v3 about the Sabbath thrown in as a parenthetical thought before listing the actual "Moedim".

Does this mean that you believe verse 2 is not accurate when it says "these are my feasts" ?

I guess what I am trying to ask is, do you believe verse two (or any part of it) should be deleted or omitted as irrelevant?

chuckbaldwin wrote:
Now you know why i didn't pick THAT passage to explain. :mrgreen:
I expect Arnold to respond with several pages of argument. Please don't think me rude if i don't reply to Arnold, since i have already replied many times to identical arguments on the "other" forum.


Chuck, no problem.

Thanks for your response.

chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 06 Feb 2008, 05:46

Hello Jay,

So many of your responses above indicate that either you are just being argumentative (baiting me) for the purpose of making me do extra work re-explaining things; OR you really don't understand what i said, meaning that i did a lousy job of trying to explain it. In the 1st case, it's YOUR problem. In the 2nd case, i don't think i would do any better the 2nd time.

A good example is your dislike of my use of the word assume/assumption, without even understanding HOW the word was being applied. I'll explain the word "assume", so you can go back and re-read what i wrote and maybe understand it the 2nd time.

"Assume" can have 2 definitions (or more?). One being the one that you have ASSUMED i used, which i didn't. And that definition is "to accept something as true without sufficient evidence". That is NOT the way i was using the word.

The 2nd definition (which i WAS using) is "to create a hypothetical scenario", in this case as test cases for different possibilities.

Here's an example of how to use the word "assume" for test cases:

Question: How do we determine when to turn on the lights?

Test case 1: ASSUME that it's night, and i want to read.
Rule = turn the lights ON.
Test case 2: ASSUME that it's daylight and i'm working outside.
Rule = turn the lights OFF.

Since i wasted all that time explaining a single word, why don't you re-read my post with that in mind, then come back and ask only RELEVENT questions. Thank you sir. And good-night.
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

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Postby BrotherArnold » 06 Feb 2008, 12:49

chuckbaldwin wrote:
BrotherArnold wrote:RESPONSESurely you're not trying to say that the weekly Sabbath IS NOT A WORSHIP MOED/holy convocation that is mentioned in Leviticus 23:2-3 where it says, "these are My feasts/Moed's, HOLLY convocations" and if you're not trying to say that, which I hope you're not, then I don't understand your rebuttal, unless you ARE suggesting that the weekly Sabbath is NOT a WORSHIP Moed. It seems you do have more time than you let on.
Hi Arnold,

Since the term "WORSHIP MOED" is not found in Scripture, i'm not saying anything an relation to that term. Part of the 3+1/2 year "tribulation" that i just went through includes 2 completely separate arguments, both of which suggest that the weekly Sabbath is NOT a "Moed" as used in Scripture. It's not my intention to repeat 3+1/2 years of debate. But in case you have forgotten the discussion of "HEORTE" (Feast) vs "KAIROS" (Appointed TIME), and the discussion of "RESUMPTIVE REPETITION" (which i think i've already explained on THIS forum); to refresh your memory and for Jay who may not have heard these things, i'll include an explanation in my response to Jay's post, shortly.

BTW, X-Mass is a HOLLY convocation; YHWH's Feasts are HOLY Convocations. :P



RESPONSE; changed the word WORSHIP MOED to HOLY CONVOCATIONS found in Leviticus 23:2 where the weekly Sabbath is the first of these. Can you address that? Leviticus 23:2-3 says, "these are My feasts/Moed's, HOLLY convocations" What Would Make Anyone except Tradition of Men Think That Every One of These Holy Convocation Moed's Are Fixed by the Something (Moon) that no one can mess with and the weekly Sabbathday Holy Convocation Moed, is left at the discretion of men as to where to begin to account for the seventh day?

I know that someone who wants to defend their doctrine, will go to great lengths, but to try to say that the weekly Sabbathday holy convocation Moed, is not a Moed, when the creator of heaven and earth clearly says, "these are My feasts/Moed's, HOLLY convocations" six-days shall work be done but the seventh day is the Sabbath, it is a holy convocation in all your dwellings.

To mislead people into thinking that it is not a holy convocation Moed just because it does not fit their theology or that they do not understand, I would not want to be in their shoes come Judgment Day.

I realize we have discussed this before a different audience in the other form which our opponents either deleted their inflammation or locked the form, which no one that is winning an argument would do, but this is a different ballgame now and I am sure if you can conclusively prove the weekly Sabbath holy convocation is not a Moed as He says it is in Leviticus 23, I'm sure everyone would like to see the proof. Even some of the more honest Saturday keepers did not buy into that argument that was presented on the other form even though they disagree with lunar Sabbaths. So maybe we can rehash it here and see what this audience thinks.

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



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Postby Luneee » 06 Feb 2008, 15:21

Chuck,

I am cautious. If you don't choose to respond to my questions, I can appreciate your choosing that, but I am only trying to make sure I understand what is being said before agreeing or disagreeing. That should be fair enough, in my eyes.

But, I would like your take on my discourse on :


However, I do notice an interesting point that I never saw before this exchange. The first time feasts are mentioned, there is no mention of "in their seasons." The second time, the "in their seasons" is there, and the moedim that follow the second mention are indeed seasonal (happening once a year, as opposed to once a week). Does this turn any lights on for you, in relation to the Heorte vs. Kairos? I assure you I am not being sarcastic or cynical. I truly don't get the septuagint introduction at this time.


This seems to negate the resumptive repetition argument.

The Sabbath is not seasonal, and the others are, thus the two listings, are directly matched to the particular type of moedim (seasonal or non-seasonal/repeated throughout the year)

What say ye?


Jay Vincent.

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Postby BrotherArnold » 06 Feb 2008, 15:35

Shalom Brother Chuck,

you wrote,

"I expect Arnold to respond with several pages of argument. Please don't think me rude if i don't reply to Arnold, since i have already replied many times to identical arguments on the "other" forum."


Chuck, no problem.

Thanks for your response
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Postby BrotherArnold » 06 Feb 2008, 15:35

Shalom All

I am posting all of Brother Matthews response to Brother Larry's and Brother Chuck's suggesting that the weekly Sabbath is not a Moed.


In the following Brother Matthew conclusively disproved Brother Larry's theory that the weekly Sabbath is not a moed, and not only that, Brother Matthew proved that it is indeed a moed and to this day Brother Matthew's post has not been denied or refuted.


Enters Brother Matthew

"It has come to my attention that there are those who are trying to dismiss the fact that the weekly Sabbath is an appointed time of YHWH. What is being used in this process in the Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures, known commonly as the Septuagint (LXX). I would like to present my understanding of what the Septuagint says, and in doing so, will prove beyond any shadow of doubt that the weekly Sabbath is a moed (Hebrew), a kairos (Greek), and an appointed time (English).

1: The Meaning of Kairos in the LXX
Before going directly to the LXX translation to determine the meaning of the Greek word kairos, I would first like to allow the lexicographers to define the word for us. I am by no means a Greek scholar, so I have to allow those learned in the language of the Greeks to educate me in understanding what Greek words mean. We ought to be thankful that we live in a century when such knowledge can be attained quite easily through numerous books as well as computer programs. The definition of the word kairos is given as:
Thayer's Greek English Lexicon (G#2540)
kairos
1) due measure
2) a measure of time, a larger or smaller portion of time, hence:
2a) a fixed and definite time, the time when things are brought to crisis, the decisive epoch waited for
2b) opportune or seasonable time
2c) the right time
2d) a limited period of time
2e) to what time brings, the state of the times, the things and events of time

Concise Greek-English Lexicon of the NT
kairos
masculine time (viewed as an occasion rather than an extent), appointed or proper time, season, age (“ for a while; always, at all times; at this time Ac 7:20; for a brief while; at the right time Rom 5:6, from time to time Jn 5:4] about this [that] time Rom 9:9; Ac 19:23); opportunity; the last times
Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon
kairos
I. of Place, in or at the right place, hence of parts of the body, “ in a vital part, Iliad; also, of wounds, …Aeschylus; is sometimes omitted, Herodotus: Adv. -, mortally, Aeschylus.
II. of Time, in season, seasonable, timely, opportune, Herodotus, Trag., etc.; timely circumstances, opportunities, Thucydides.
2. lasting but for a season, Anthology.
3. Adv. - in season, seasonably, Aeschylus: Comp. - Xenophon: so also, Sophocles.

What we see from the lexicons is a consistent definition of simply put - a certain time period. Nothing in the inherent meaning of the word has to do with the "Divisions of a year" or a "Specific season" (summer, winter, etc.) of a year. I fully agree that the seasons and divisions of the year can be classified as kairos, but that does not mean this is the meaning of this particular Greek word. The word simply means "A time", nothing more, nothing less.

2: Is the Sabbath Day a Kairos?

The answer to this question is simple. It can be asked in this way: Is the Sabbath day a period of time? Anyone ought to know that the answer is a resounding "YES!, of course the Sabbath day is a "Time" or "period of time" or we could say in Greek a kairos. Before we prove that the Sabbath is indeed a "Period of time" (which we already should know) here are instances of kairos in the LXX that show that the word simply denotes a certain period of time.

- Gen. 17:23, 26 - time and period of a day (8th day)
- Gen. 26:1 - time of Abram (time period of his life)
- Exodus 8:32 - Pharaoh hardened heart on this occasion
- Leviticus 15:25 - woman's issue - time of separation
- Numbers 14:9 - a season of prosperity, meaning a long or short time period
- Deuteronomy 9:16 - time in relation to a past happening
- Nehemiah 13:21 - from that time they came not on the Sabbath

A few New Testament occurrences of the word are as follows:
- Eph. 2:12 - a time without Messiah
- 1 Tim. 4:1 - a time of departure from the faith
- Heb. 9:10 - the time of reformation

Take note that these examples prove, without ambiguity, that the word kairos means nothing more than a period of time. Once again, we all ought to know that the weekly Sabbath is a period of time.
Also take special note of Nehemiah 13:21 where the story of the greedy traders of the land comes to a head as Nehemiah reprimands them for their unlawful behavior. The story reads as follows:

"in those days I saw people in Judah treading wine presses on the Sabbath, and bringing in sheaves, and loading donkeys with wine, grapes, figs, and all kinds of burdens, which they brought into Jerusalem on the Sabbath day. And I warned them about the day on which they were selling provisions. Men of Tyre dwelt there also, who brought in fish and all kinds of goods, and sold them on the Sabbath to the children of Judah, and in Jerusalem. Then I contended with the nobles of Judah, and said to them, "What evil thing is this that you do, by which you profane the Sabbath day? Did not your fathers do thus, and did not our God bring all this disaster on us and on this city? Yet you bring added wrath on Israel by profaning the Sabbath. So it was, at the gates of Jerusalem, as it began to be dark before the Sabbath, that I commanded the gates to be shut, and charged that they must not be opened till after the Sabbath. Then I posted some of my servants at the gates, so that no burdens would be brought in on the Sabbath day. Now the merchants and sellers of all kinds of wares lodged outside Jerusalem once or twice. Then I warned them, and said to them, "Why do you spend the night around the wall? If you do so again, I will lay hands on you! From that time on they came no more on the Sabbath. And I commanded the Levites that they should cleanse themselves, and that they should go and guard the gates, to sanctify the Sabbath day. Remember me, O my Elohim, concerning this also, and spare me according to the greatness of Your mercy!"

The Septuagint text of Nehemiah 13:21 reads " kairos - where the NKJV reads "from that time. This time period was on the Sabbath day when Nehemiah was rebuking the traders of the land for their transgression. Thus Nehemiah gave the rebuke at a - kairos " this certain kairos was the weekly Sabbath.

3: Further Evidence from the Greek New Testament

The book of Matthew gives us further evidence that the weekly Sabbath is a "Time" or a "Kairod"? (Greek), and this evidence most assuredly leaves no room for doubt. The passage which proves that the weekly Sabbath is a kairos can be found in Matthew 12:1-2.

"at that time Yeshua went through the grain fields on the Sabbath. And His disciples were hungry, and began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to Him, "Look, Your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath!

The phrase "at that time in Matthew 12:1 is none other than the Greek word kairos, and there can be no doubt, WHATSOEVER, that the weekly Sabbath day is what is under consideration in this verse. Thus it is proven that the weekly Sabbath day is a kairos. Thus, the argument that the weekly Sabbath IS NOT a kairos, should have never surfaced (because it will not float).

4: Does Leviticus 23:2-4 NOT Identify the Sabbath as a Kairos?

Leviticus 23:2 does not use the Greek word kairos in the LXX, but rather uses the Greek word heorte which has the meaning of a "Festival" or "Day of feasting". Leviticus 23:4 does use the Greek word kairos and is not only designating the annual feasts as such, but it is also speaking of the weekly Sabbath. Leviticus 23:2 and Leviticus 23:4 both mention holy convocations, and Leviticus 23:3 shows that Sabbath to be a day of holy convocation. Leviticus 23:4 not only is designating what follows to be kairos, but also what comes directly before it - the weekly Sabbath.
Love you friends,
Matthew Janzen"

In the above Brother Matthew has conclusively proven that the weekly Sabbath is a moed as Scripture teaches and Brother Larry has overstepped his bounds to defend his position on the traditional Sabbath of today and as Brother Matthew said above, this subject should not have surfaced. I added the (because it cannot float)

Perhaps someone would like to try to this disprove the above Scriptures that Brother Matthew used to show that the weekly Sabbath is indeed a Moed.
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



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Postby BrotherArnold » 06 Feb 2008, 19:09

Shalom Brother Chuck,

you wrote,

YOU WROTE,

“In the Masoretic Hebrew text (MT), both verses 2 & 4 have the word "Moedim" translated "Feasts". BUT, in the Septuagint (LXX), v2 has "Heorte" (Feast), while v4 has "Kairos" (Moed). Allowing that the LXX is correct (i.e. translated from an older hebrew text than the MT), this suggests that EVEN IF "Feasts" in v2 is talking about the Sabbath in v3, it's not referring to it as a Moed".

RESPONSE; I double-checked my Greek Septuagint and it has "Heorte" in BOTH verses 2 & 4 and not as you suggested above. If I am correct, then the SAME Greek word is used for the weekly Sabbaths in verse 2 as well as the annual Sabbaths in verse, 4 isn’t that correct?

Brother Arnold
Last edited by BrotherArnold on 06 Feb 2008, 20:18, edited 1 time in total.
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



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Postby Luneee » 06 Feb 2008, 19:25

BrotherArnold wrote:Shalom Brother Chuck,

you wrote,

YOU WROTE,

“In the Masoretic Hebrew text (MT), both verses 2 & 4 have the word "Moedim" translated "Feasts". BUT, in the Septuagint (LXX), v2 has "Heorte" (Feast), while v4 has "Kairos" (Moed). Allowing that the LXX is correct (i.e. translated from an older hebrew text than the MT), this suggests that EVEN IF "Feasts" in v2 is talking about the Sabbath in v3, it's not referring to it as a Moed".

RESPONSE; I double-checked my Greek Septuagint and it has "Heorte" in BOTH verses 2 & 4 and not as you suggested above.


Brother Arnold


This would appear to further substantiate the seasonal/non-seasonal double reference.

Thanks Brother Arnold.

Shalom,

Jay Vincent.


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