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Posted: 29 Apr 2008, 06:58
by Jesse
Brother Arnold said.
When He said let there be light, there was lights all around the earth because of all the stars and therefore time began on both sides of the earth.

Evening to eveninger's Believe that he created in darkness From Bereshith 1:1
'Elohim Created the heavens and the earth'

I see this as a summary, Of what he was going to do. If it was'nt then it looks like he created two heavens and earth.
As it says: Elohim created the Heavens and the Earth. It would be like ok done.

I see creation starts at let there be light..
Yahushua was the first born of all creation. and Yahushua was also the light of the world. Since the Sun Moon etc was'nt created until the fourth day.

If we believe the day begins at sunrise and say "and then came evening and then came morning" in other words YHWH did His work that day then came evening - which came after the work period - and then came morning - which came after the night or sleep period, we have major problems because He began working in the DARK according to scripture.

Answer above also.
But Lets say,
Yahweh Created the Sun the Moon etc... There came to be evening..... There came to be morning the fourth day.
So lets say You worked all day came home. There came to be evening..
Then there came to be morning the fourth day.

The reason that the evening of the 14th is the beginning of the 15th, is because the evening always ends a day, both, the 24-hour day and the 12 hour day. It is the same as telling someone that Saturday Sabbath actually begins on Friday evening, or the sixth day at evening. I.e. the sixth day at evening is the beginning of the seventh day because the six-day ends then, same as the 14th day and ends at evening and the 15 begins.

Also. If you think that (not you persoanally) but Passover and Atonement represents the time we are meant to have as sabbath. Do you say this for lack of evidence there is for evening to evening?
I would have to ask why would Yahweh tell us in those two Festivals if we were going to do them evening to evening anyway?

Also If your day starts at evening you must struggle to do passover. If your day starts at evening and your meant to eat it on the 14th. At evening it would immediatly become the 15th.
Is not our passover a night to remember?
It also would make sense when it says 'None of it remains until the morning' Maybe the new day?

Posted: 29 Apr 2008, 07:15
by Jesse
Greetings all.

Hope you are all doing well on this fine day that YHWH has made.

Would anybody like to discuss John chapter 20 where the ladies go early the first of the week to the sepulchre and later in that chapter it is noted that in the evening (still the first of the week) he came to his disciples.

This chapter, along with the day of atonement instruction, are what has shown my heart a new understanding regarding rendering time.


Shalom Kathy.
Lets go to Deut 17 6
At the mouth of two or three witness's a matter is established.
Yohanan is the only one that disagree's with...

Luke 24
Mat 28
Mark 16

Posted: 29 Apr 2008, 07:24
by Jesse
Numbers 19:16 teaches that a man that touches a dead body shall be unclean for SEVEN DAYS and in verse 19 it teaches the seventh day ENDED at evening, therefore all the seven 24-hour days ended at evening. These seven days were obviously 24-hour day periods.

Brother Arnold said.

Does it matter? If they came in then? It does not define a day.
Would you like to be outside the camp at night time. Sounds pretty scary to me..
Bears lions, Alsorts.

I realize that History should not trump scripture but complements it. We have Historical Records of the sacred Name, lunar Sabbaths, etc, But No Historical Record of a 24 hour day beginning at sunrise.

Yes there is, Ready for it?
Have fun.

"...The nighttime is considered as belonging to the preceding period of daylight. from this there developed the meaning of "day" in the sense of the cycle made up of one period of daylight and one period of darkness, or according to our modern reckoning, twenty-four hours...from the natural viewpoint the twenty-four hour day begins at sunrise...
however, beside this conception there arose another idea of the twenty-four hour day, according to which this daily period began at sunset. it was no doubt the lunar calendar of the Jews which gave rise to this viewpoint...
although the earlier computation did not die out completely, the custom of considering the day as beginning at sunset became general in later Jewish times..." (Encyclopedic Dictionary of the Bible. p.497)

"There can be no doubt that in pre-exilic times the Israelites reckoned the day from morning to morning. The day began with the dawn and closed with the end of the night following it..." (Jacob Zallel Lauterbach, Rabbinic Essays, (Cincinnati: Hebrew Union College Press, 1951), p. 446)

"...To the Light He gives the name Day, to the Darkness the name Night...Thus the work of the first day, reckoned probably from morning to morning, is accomplished. The period of Light is followed by Evening and Darkness, which comes to an end with the next morning when the second day begins..." (Peake's Commentary on The Bible, p.136).

"In the Old Testament the earlier practice seems to have been to consider that the day began in the morning. In Gen. 19:34, for example, the "morrow" (ASV) or "Next Day" (RSV) clearly begins with the morning after the preceding night..." (Jack Finegan, The Handbook of Biblical Chronology, p.7-8).

"...In earlier traditions a day apparently began at sunrise (e.g., Lev. 7:15-17; Judg. 19:4-19)...
later its beginning was at sunset and its end at the following sunset...
this system became normative...
and is still observed in Jewish tradition, where for example , the sabbath begins on Friday evening at sunset and ends Saturday at sunset..." (Oxford Companion to the Bible, p.744).

"That the custom of reckoning the day as beginning in the evening and lasting until the following evening was probably of late origin is shown by the phrase "tarry all night" (Jdg 19:6-9); the context shows that the day is regarded as beginning in the morning; in the evening the day "declined," and until the new day (morning) arrived it was necessary to "tarry all night" (compare also Num 11:32)" (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia)

"...It is also interesting that according to the Karaite historian Al-QirqisanI (ca. 975 CE), the dissident Meswi al-Okbari (ca.850 CE) broke from traditional Rabbinical Judaism in an attempt to get back to the original religion and began the reckoning of the day from sunrise. (The Itinerary of R. Benjamin of Tudela, ix, 5-8, ed. Gruhut-Adler, (1904), p. 23)

"Among the Greeks the day was reckoned from sunset to sunset..." (Handbook of Chronology, op.cit., p.8)

"Among the ancient Israelites, as among the Greeks, the day was reckoned from sunset to sunset. This was the custom also of the Gauls and ancient Germans, and was probably connected originally with the cult of the moon. There is, however, evidence that this was not the custom at all times..." (Delitzsch in Dillmann's commentary on Gen. i. 5)

"...Early in the old testament period, when Canaan was under Egypt's influence, the day started at sunrise...
later, perhaps under Babylonian influence, the calendar seems to have changed. the day began at moonrise (1800 hrs) and a whole day became an evening and a morning..." (Lion Encyclopedia of the Bible - p.163).

"...The Israelites, like the Babylonians, counted their days from sunset to sunset..." (NIV Study Bible, p.707)

"We know little about the old Israelite calendar, apart from the laws of the festivals. But the Mishnah (the collection of Jewish law made at the end of the 2nd century AD) fully describes the system which the Jews had worked out under Babylonian influence... (Eerdman's Handbook to the Bible).

"when the Jews returned to Palestine after their Babylonian exile (516 B.C.E.) they brought back with them the Babylonian astronomy and way of reckoning time..." (What is a Jew, p. 108)

"in order to fix the beginning and ending of the Sabbath-day and festivals and to determine the precise hour for certain religious observances it becomes necessary to know the exact times of the rising and setting of the sun. According to the strict interpretation of the Mosaic law, every day begins with sunrise and ends with sunset... (Jewish Encyclopedia, p. 591-597)

"cays were reckoned from morning to morning...
Following the reign of King Josia (c. 640-609), and especially after the Babylonian exile a number of significant and enduring changes occurred in the Israelite calendar showing that the Jews gradually adopted the Babylonian calendar of the time...the seven day week persisted despite its failure to divide evenly either the month or the year. the day however, was counted from evening to evening, after the Babylonian fashion..." (New Catholic Encyclopedia -Volume 11, p.1068)

"so far as we know, the Babylonian calendar was at all periods truly lunar...
the month began with the evening when the new crescent was for the first time again visible shortly after sunset. consequently, the Babylonian day also begins in the evening..." (Exact Sciences in Antiquity, p.106)

"...Numerous scholars have argued for the existence in Bible times of a sunrise method of day reckoning...the evidence for the sunrise reckoning is significant and cannot be ignored..." (The Time of the Crucifixion and the Resurrection, Chapter 5)

"in Israel, the day was for a long time reckoned from morning to morning...and it was in fact in the morning, with the creation of light, that the world began; the distinction of day and night, and time too, began on a morning (Gen. 1:3-5, cf. 14:16, 18). The opposite conclusion has been drawn from the refrain which punctuates the story of creation: "There was an evening and there was a morning, the first, second, etc., day"; This phrase, however, coming after the description of each creative work (which clearly happens during the period of light), indicates rather the vacant time till the morning, the end of a day and the beginning of the next work...The change of reckoning must there fore have taken place between the end of the monarchy and the age of Nehemias... this would bring us to the beginning of the exile..." (Ancient Israel, p.181-182).

"the first evening was not the gloom, which possibly preceded the full burst of light as it came forth from the primary darkness, and intervened between the darkness and full broad daylight. It was not till after the light had been created, and the separation of the light from the darkness had taken place, that evening came, and after the evening the morning...It follows from this, that the days of creation are not reckoned from evening to evening, but from morning to morning..." (Commentary on the Old Testament, The First Book of Moses, p. 51)

"in early Jewish practice,... it seems to have been customary to reckon the day from sunrise to sunrise, or, rather, from dawn to dawn. Thus the law for the "praise-offering" (lev. 7:17 (pt) specifies that this sacrifice must be eaten on the day upon which it is offered, and that nothing may be left until morning. The repetition of the law in Lev. 22:30... is even more explicit: "on that very day (when it was sacrificed) it shall be eaten; ye shall not leave anything of it until morning. Clearly the next morning is here reckoned as belonging to the next day, and not the same day as the preceding evening and night. In other words, the day is reckoned here from sunrise to sunrise...

Likewise in Exod. 16:19f...the manna was given to the people in the morning, just at dawn and before the sun had become warm (16:21). It was to be eaten only on the day upon which it was gathered; nothing was to remain over until the next morning; that which did so became foul. Here, too, the day seems to have been reckoned from dawn to dawn...From Matt. 28:1 It may be inferred that the practice of reckoning the day from sunset to sunset was not universal in Israel, but in certain circles the older practice continued for several centuries...It is manifest that the day is still reckoned here from dawn to dawn. This is also the implication of the parallel passage, Mark 16:1f...Luke 23:56b-24:1 seems to imply the same...
Finally, it is significant that in the second Temple, throughout its entire existence, the practice seems to have been in all ritual matters to reckon the day from dawn to dawn, and not according to the later practice, from sunset to sunset...even the rabbis, who, themselves, reckoned the day from sunset to sunset, and refused to admit the legitimacy of any other practice, or rather, absolutely ignored all divergent practice, none the less had to admit the validity of the interpretation of Lev. 7:15...
the day was at one time reckoned from sunrise to sunrise...
The earlier practice, which continued until the time of the secondary strata of the Priestly code, was to reckon the day from dawn to dawn...
The later practice was to reckon the day from sunset to sunset...
It is impossible to tell exactly when this change in the mode of reckoning the day took place in Israel, and what causes brought it about. Possibly it may have had something to do with the introduction of the lunar calendar instead of the solar, for the lunar calendar naturally presupposes a reckoning of the day from nightfall to nightfall...
It was probably coincident with the revision of the festival calendar, which took place in the period after the time of Ezra, and was, in all probability, the work of the soferim or of the Great Synod in the fourth century B.C. This may also be inferred from the statement in the Talmud (Berachoth 33a) that the men of the Great Synod instituted the ceremonies of Kiddush and Havdalah, the solemn sanctification of the Sabbath on Friday eve, and its equally solemn ushering out on Saturday eve, in other words, ceremonies specifically marking the beginning and close of the Sabbath as at sunset. These were ceremonies for the Jewish home instead of the Temple. This, coupled with the fact that in the second Temple the old system of reckoning the day from dawn to dawn continued to be observed, as we have seen, may perhaps indicate that this entire innovation was the work of an anti-priestly group or party in the Great Synod..." (The Sources of the Creation Story - Gen. 1:1- 2:4, p. 169-212)

"a new stage in the investigation of the problem of the calendar of ancient Israel was marked by the appearance of a learned article by E. Koenig in 1906...He maintains that two distinct calendars were current in ancient Israel. The first, a solar calendar...This solar calendar was well adapted to the conditions of the simple, agricultural life which the Israelites lived during the first period of their sojourn in Palestine. It reckoned the day from sunrise...
The second calendar was a luni-solar year...The day now came quite naturally to be reckoned from sunset...This second calendar was obviously based upon Babylonian models and was adopted under direct Babylonian influence at about 600 B.C., when Babylonian religion and general culture began to affect with steadily increasing force the Jewish exiles in Babylonia and, through those of them who return from exile, the Jews who had remained in Palestine.
This broadly sums up Koenig's conclusions...
...the time of the transition from the reckoning of the day as beginning with morning to the reckoning of it as beginning with evening...
...that in the earlier calendar and in the literature which records this the day was reckoned from the morning, presumably from sunrise, while in the later calendar and the literature pertaining thereto the day was reckoned from the evening...must be eaten upon the day upon which it is sacrificed, and that nothing of it must be allowed to remain over until morning. Obviously the implication here is that the next morning is no longer a part of the day upon which the sacrifice was offered, but mark the beginning of the next day...
...Elsewhere we have presented quite a mass of evidence which establishes conclusively that the earlier practice in Israel during the biblical period was to reckon the day from sunrise to sunrise...
...That in the earliest period of Israelite sojourn in Palestine, under calendar 1, the day was reckoned from morning to morning is established by a superabundance of evidence...
...This in turn, together with other important considerations, would point to a time approximately about the beginning or the first half, of the third century B.C. as that of the introduction of the new system of reckoning the day." (Supplementary Studies in The Calendars of Ancient Israel, p. 1-148).

Note: It is interesting to note the wide variety of commentators who may not agree on many points of doctrine, but do agree that the Scriptural day begins at first light in the morning.

If you have any verse in Scripture that clearly states a day starts in the evening then we would love to know, but the conclusion of the matter is: If you have no Scriptures to support your belief then you have added to Yahweh's Commands and are practicing vain traditions.

May Yahweh bless you as you seek to obey...

Scriptures quoted are taken from "The Scriptures " 1998 (International Scripture Research) available through

Posted: 29 Apr 2008, 07:50
by Jesse
If you would like to read the full study then please visit.

Chuck. I am aware that (i think you still do) do the evening to evening sabbath?
Please explain why?
If you see The Bereshith as morning to morning then where was it change?
If it was changed it was by the Yehudim later on.

I think that Nehimiah is a shaky verse to hang your hat on for a belief.
As scripture i see a matter is established by two or three witness's
as too Deut 17 6.
Where is your secound verse?

I dont even seen Nehimiah as a strong verse. I see it does go both way. But still shaky.
If we go back to Nehimiah 7:3
It says that the gates are to be opened at the heat of the day. Well they have to be closed to be opened. So no matter what day it was they were going to be closed. And since it says the sabbath was only a matter of 12hours or whatever away.. Not far anyway.. It does'nt define when the sabbath was. It just says Before sabbath. which could have been at morning..
Why were they sleeping outside the gates? They obviously came in at night time to sneak in. So offcourse they closed they gates to stop them sneaking in.
I see another thing to look at is As it began to be dark?
Now i know that evening to eveninger's start their day at sunset.
I know there is a time which is called twilight. where you have a a bit if time before dark could they have been closing the gates at that time?
I dont know. Just an opinion.

Posted: 04 May 2008, 22:57
by chuckbaldwin
Jesse wrote:Chuck. I am aware that (i think you still do) do the evening to evening sabbath?
Please explain why?
If you see The Bereshith as morning to morning then where was it change?
If it was changed it was by the Yehudim later on.
Greetings Jesse,

I agree that the Gen.1 Creation days were from morn to morn.

I believe that the "change" occurred at the time of the Exodus, when YHWH put His plan into "2nd gear" (so to speak) by calling out the nation of Israel. The typology needed for the plan of redemption required backing up the day-start to evening to show man coming out of darkness into light; and backing up the year-start from fall to spring to provide the Passover Sacrifice for sin. The wording of Ex.12:2 suggests a new reckoning.

A couple supporting Scriptures are Ex.12:18 & Lev.23:27-32. I realize that these 2 can be seen as exceptions, but a careful reading of the latter shows that the 10th "day" of the 7th month IS the "Day" of Atonement, IS a Sabbath, and IS from even to even. Contrary explanations are weak, IMO.

One of my strongest Scriptures supporting even-even are Ex.16, where "BTE" (when the quails were eaten) follows "at even" (sunset, when the quails arrived). Assuming dawn-dawn OR assuming "BTE" was in the afternoon, the cooking of the quails would've violated the Sabbath.

My other strongest Scripture is the account of the Last Supper & Crucifixion. Assuming that Yahshua had to die as our Passover Lamb on the 14th, and also that the Passover meal He ate with His disciples the night before also had to be on the 14th, that would make the 14th from even to even.
I think that Nehimiah is a shaky verse to hang your hat on for a belief.
I don't rely on the Nehimiah passage, since i can see it being understood both ways.

Similarly, all the passages that seem to strongly indicate the days starting at morning, can also be understood 2 ways...

1. The "dawn" people take the word "day" to mean the 24-hour day, thus "proving" their premise.
2. The "even" people take it to mean the basic 12-hour "daylight day", and thus not a reference to when the 24-hour day starts.

I think that covers the essentials.

Posted: 10 May 2008, 01:44
by BrotherArnold
Check this out for conclusive proof the 24-hour day ends at evening.

Also, I have not been able to get a mourning to morning proponent to produce even one Historical document for a day beginning at sunrise/morning. The following is very clear how they understood it during the temple times.



“(580) but having the advantage of situation, and having withal erected four very large towers aforehand, that their darts might come from higher places, (581) one at the northeast corner of the court, one above the Xystus, the third at another corner over against the lower city, (582) and the last was erected above the top of the Pastophoria, where one of the priests stood of course, and gave a signal beforehand, with a trumpet, at the “beginning” of every seventh day, in the “evening twilight,” as also at the “evening” when the “day was finished,” as giving notice to the people when they were to “leave off work,” and when they were to go to “work again.” (583) ”

In the above Josephus is saying that the trumpet was blown at evening which is the beginning of every seventh day and at the evening at the end of every seventh day for the people to go back to work again. Remember Josephus is writing this during the time of the destruction of the Temple when the priesthood was still active and the Temple still standing which conclusively proves the Jews at this time understood the day begins and ends at evening and the day consisted of 24 hours. I know the sunrise proponents will not like this because it does not leave them any wiggle room at all.

Even The Dead Sea Scrolls proves the day begins at “sunset”

To prove day ends at evening and the weeks were originally connected to the moon we read fragments of lunar days 4 through 25 which were uncovered at Qumran describing the moon's appearance and movements in relation to the sun and the ancient weeks, it also reveals how they under stood when a day begins. Wise, Abegg and Cooke, in their book The Dead Sea Scrolls, A New Translation, translate the fragment for lunar day 8 as follows –

“On the eighth of the month [chodesh], the moon rules all the day in the midst of the sky...and when the sun sets, its light ceases to be obscured, and thus the moon begins to be revealed on the FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK" on the ninth of it it is visible" (pp. 301-303).

This not only Proves that the 8th of the month was always the 7th day of the week but this is conclusive evidence from the Dead Sea Scrolls that the "9th" day of each month is the first day of the week and begins at “sun set”. This is an absolute when using deductive reasoning.”

The scroll teaches it is the 8th day before sunset and when the sun sets it begins the 9th at sunset. This proves they understood the day passes from the 8th day to the 9th day at sunset, NOT sunrise. Remember all this is in harmony with the scriptures I gave above.

We also have eyewitness from Philo the Jew who actually lived at the same time our Saviour did. In his writings Philo spoke very highly of a group of Orthodox Jews, referring to them as the disciples of Moses and how they had forsaken all, and devoted their whole lives following the law of Moses and even stated that they could not be deceived.

ON THE CONTEMPLATIVE LIFE Chapter V11-(63) … through Chapter V111 (65) page 704. We read,

“but they are despised by the disciples of Moses, who in the abundance of their wisdom have learnt from their earliest infancy to love truth, and also continue to the end of their lives impossible to be deceived.

VIII. (64) But since the entertainments of the greatest celebrity are full of such trifling and folly, bearing conviction in themselves, if any one should think fit not to regard vague opinion and the character which has been commonly handed down concerning them as feasts which have gone off with the most eminent success, I will oppose to them the entertainments of those persons who have devoted their whole life and themselves to the knowledge and contemplation of the affairs of nature in accordance with the most sacred admonitions and precepts of the prophet Moses.

(65) In the first place, these men assemble at the “end “ of seven weeks, venerating not only the simple week of seven days, but also its multiplied power, for they know it to be pure and always virgin; and it is a prelude and a kind of forefeast of the greatest feast, which is assigned to the number fifty, the most holy and natural of numbers, being compounded of the power of the right-angled triangle, which is the principle of the origination and condition of the whole

(66) Therefore when they come together clothed in white garments, and joyful with the most exceeding gravity……..(81) And when each individual has finished his psalm, then the young men bring in the table which was mentioned a little while ago, on which was placed that most holy food, the leavened bread, with a seasoning of salt, with which hyssop is mingled, out of reverence for the sacred table, which lies thus in the holy outer temple; for on this table are placed loaves and salt without seasoning, and the bread is unleavened, and the salt unmixed with anything else, (82) for it was becoming that the simplest and purest things should be allotted to the most excellent portion of the priests, as a reward for their ministrations, and that the others should admire similar things, but should abstain from the loaves, in order that those who are the more excellent person may have the precedence.

XI. (83) And after the feast they celebrate the sacred festival during the whole night; and this nocturnal festival is celebrated in the following manner:”

Notice this sacred festival begins at the “end” of seven weeks which was at night/evening when the day ends which conclusive proves the Jews of our Savior’s day understood the day ends at evening and another 24-hour space of time begins. I could give many more Scriptures and Historical records that conclusively prove the 24hr day CAN NOT begin at sunrise but this should be enough for the honest hearted and that is who this is for.

Brother Arnold

Posted: 10 May 2008, 19:46
by chuckbaldwin
Just to be contentions, and contrary to my own reckoning -- doesn't Mt.28:1 say that the "end of the Sabbath" is at "DAWN on the 1st day of the week"?

Posted: 11 May 2008, 02:47
by BrotherArnold
chuckbaldwin wrote:Just to be contentions, and contrary to my own reckoning -- doesn't Mt.28:1 say that the "end of the Sabbath" is at "DAWN on the 1st day of the week"?

RESPONSE; Day can mean the 12 hours of light or a 24 period of time and it depends on how the word is used in any particular sentence. People are deceiving their own selves when they used the narrow definition ever where the word day is mentioned. When it says that as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, it should be understood that as it began to draw toward the day/light part of the first day of the week that began at evening when the Sabbath ended. The Broader definition should be understood here because the scripture clearly teaches that a day ENDS at evening NOT morning. i.e. the seventh 24-hour day ended at evening and the first day began and as it began to dawn toward the light/day part of of the first day of the week is speaking of the second half of the 24-hour day and it also will end at evening.

Brother Arnold

Posted: 11 May 2008, 05:44
by chuckbaldwin
BrotherArnold wrote:... the seventh 24-hour day ended at evening and the first day began and as it began to dawn toward the light/day part of of the first day of the week is speaking of the second half of the 24-hour day and it also will end at evening.
Hmmmmm. Since when does the "light" part of a day (i.e. DAWN - epiphosko/#2020) start at evening?

This has nothing to do with whether it's 12 or 24 hours; it has to do with the Sabbath ENDING as the 1st day STARTS at DAWN.

END of SABBATH (12|24)--->|<---DAWN of 1st day (12|24)

Posted: 11 May 2008, 05:51
by Watchman555
Shalom Brother Arnold,

This is a interesting quote. I was wondering if you could provide some kind of link to where you found this so we might read a little bit before and after this particular quote. I myself, wouldn't be adamant to call this 'scripture' or consider it an absolute when it comes to when the day begins or even to prove that the first day of the week would always be on the 9th. Let me explain. The writings that come out of the Dead Sea Scrolls through our research we find that these writings from the Dead Sea Scrolls are in fact, dated from a time period after the Babylonian captivity. Through our research we have found that the Babylonians indeed kept an evening to evening day. We know also that the "jews" seem to conform to their captor's calendar. Point is, when they went into the Babylonian captivity they could have been keeping morning to morning when they came out, they could have been keeping evening to evening. In which it is quite possible if not probable that most of the writings henceforth would reflect the understanding of an evening to evening day.

For instance:

If we look into historical information concerning 9/11, we would find that 09-11-2001 is when this occurred. This is a "historical" fact. According to the Gregorian calendar of the time. Now according to Yahuah's time, the closest we can figure, it truly occurred on 6/24. Now according to Gregorian time, the day begins at 12:00 midnight. So if you asked these "historians" when the day begins, they would tell you - 12:00 a.m. So if the 9/11 incident occurred after 12:00 a.m. it would have been considered 9/12, but according to eve. to eve. understanding it would have still been on 9/11. What I'm saying is, whenever something is written historical or otherwise, it is written to that person's understanding and perspective. It is quite possible that those who wrote much of the Dead Sea Scrolls could have had the evening to evening ingrained in them from the time they came out of Babylon. The same would apply to Josephus, to Philo, or any other historian of any age. They would write the historical information according to their understanding and reckoning of time.

Through our studies we have found that the Dead Sea Scrolls contain different types of writings and there are also writings that seem to contradict one another, such as the writings of the Hellenistic Jews versus the Essenes.

The last part of the Rule of the Community** is a section giving rules for conduct by the Maskil (Master) and includes a poem in which he blesses God. The poem is introduced by a paragraph about the times when he should offer his benedictions; the poetic part then presents his actual expression of those blessings:

""He shall bless Him with the offering of the lips at the times ordained by Him: at the beginning of the dominion of light, and at its end when it retires to its appointed place; at the beginning of the watches or darkness when He unlocks their storehouse and spreads them out, and also at their end when they retire before the light; when the heavenlylights shine out from the dwelling-place of Holiness, and also when they retire to the place of Glory; at the entry of the monthly seasons on the days of the new moon....""

The blessings here are termed "the offering of the lips", a phrase which signifies that while the group was separated from the temple and its sacrificial cult, it believed it could still offer acceptable worship to God through other means. The first time of the day for a blessing occurs at dawn and the last comes at night - a sequence that is consistent with the idea that for the Qumran group the day began in the morning. Josephus wrote that the Essenes' "piety towards the Deity takes a peculiar form. Before the sun is up they utter no word on mundane matters, but offer up to him certain prayers, which have been handed down from their forefathers, as though entreating him to rise" (War 2.8, 5 [129]).

Calendars in the Dead Sea Scrolls: Measuring Time by James C. Vanderkam page 46-47

** The ancient Hebrew name of the text appears to have been Serekh ha-Yakhad, the Community Rule. In the most recent authoritative text, it is called the Rule of the Community, as distinguished from a supplement to this text called, among other things, the Rule of the Congregation. The most complete copy of the Rule of the Community was found in Cave 1 and was one of the scrolls photographed by John Trever at the American School of Oriental Research.
from: The Mystery and Meaning of the Dead Sea Scrolls by Hershel Shanks, page 90-91

So, as we can see, there are conflicting views coming from the same Dead Sea Scrolls. So I guess it's all a matter of what we will take individually out of them and claim them to be authoritative. I personally have very little emphasis on "historical evidence". Any history that has been written down will be biased by that individual's understanding and not to mention the enemy's influence.

Also concerning the quote you have provided, I see a discrepancy from the very first line, which says - The moon rules all that day. According to Scripture, the sun rules the day and the moon rules the night. I see a conflict in that.

“On the eighth of the month [chodesh], the moon rules all the day in the midst of the sky...and when the sun sets, its light ceases to be obscured, and thus the moon begins to be revealed on the FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK" on the ninth of it it is visible" (pp. 301-303).

I also see a conflict when it says that the light becomes visible on the 9th. Because from the new moon day the light becomes visible in the evening, which can be visible before the sun actually sets, this also holds true from the first day until somewhere into the second week of the month until full moon when it rises at dusk. In other words, this moon can be seen during the daylight portion, yes it is obscured by the light of the sun, but it is still visible. I have seen this moon myself and I'm sure many others have also. This quote seems to indicate that it does not become visible until the 9th day of the month. Like I said before, of course they would say it is revealed on the first day of the week when the sun sets to indicate their understanding of when the day begins. One other thing that might be taken into consideration is some believe sunset or the going down of the sun takes place from high noon to the point where the sun goes over the horizon. I believe this is how the conclusion that the lamb being slaughtered in the afternoon (in the evening at the going down of the sun) is at 3:00 in the afternoon. The truth is, if we believe in evening to evening, then we must also concede that there are two evenings to a day. One would occur from high noon to the going down of the sun and the other occurs after sundown until dark. If there are two evenings to a day, then exactly what evening begins the day? ? ?

I believe you have stated before that evening is the time period between sunset and sunrise, if this is the case, then how can the lamb be slaughtered in the evening, at the going down of the sun and be in the daylight portion?

Anyway, just something to think about.


Posted: 11 May 2008, 06:08
by Watchman555
Shalom Chuck,

Have you ever considered this next verse?

Luke 23:54-56:
54 And it was Preparation day, and the Sabbath was approaching (2020). 55 And the women who had come with Him from Galil followed after, and saw the tomb and how His body was laid. 56 And having returned, they prepared spices and perfumes. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the command.

Strong's #2020 - epiphōskō

1) to grow light, to dawn

It's kind of an odd way to put it, saying the Sabbath was "growing light" or approaching, and yet the women returned and prepared spices and perfumes, now if this verse was inferring that the day was actually growing light, how could these women have time to return and prepare spices and perfumes? Now, with the evening to evening understanding, it still seems odd, because by the time they took Messiah down from the stake and prepared Him and laid Him in the tomb, the women still had enough time to return and prepare spices and perfumes and then rest on the Sabbath.

The point is, this Scripture seems to indicate that after the Messiah was put in the tomb there was still time before the Sabbath begun to return and prepare spices and perfumes.

Any thoughts?

One other thought -

If the day ended at evening and the women rested on the Sabbath according to the Scriptures, why did they wait until morning to go to the tomb? If the day ended in the evening, they surely could have went to the tomb at that time, but instead they waited until morning.


Posted: 11 May 2008, 08:05
by chuckbaldwin
Watchman555 wrote:Have you ever considered this next verse?
Luke 23:54-56:
54 And it was Preparation day, and the Sabbath was approaching (2020). 55 And the women who had come with Him from Galil followed after, and saw the tomb and how His body was laid. 56 And having returned, they prepared spices and perfumes. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the command.
Hi Greg,

Yes, that verse is the one i fall back on for an alternate (figurative) definition of #2020, meaning "to approach". In case you didn't catch it, i'm kinda playing "DA" with Arnold, to see if i can extract a meaningful answer.
The point is, this Scripture seems to indicate that after the Messiah was put in the tomb there was still time before the Sabbath begun to return and prepare spices and perfumes.
My answer to that goes back to the Sign of Jonah - i believe there was a 6th-day workday between the 5th-day High Sabbath & the 7th-day weekly Sabbath. The latter is the "Sabbath" that the women "rested according to the commandment", and the 6th-day is when they bought + prepared the spices.
If the day ended at evening and the women rested on the Sabbath according to the Scriptures, why did they wait until morning to go to the tomb? If the day ended in the evening, they surely could have went to the tomb at that time, but instead they waited until morning.
I think they just wanted to have plenty of daylight time to apply the spices, and not have to do it in the dark.

Here's another problem with Mt.28:1. If the "end of the Sabbath" was in the evening, and the women made an evening visit to the tomb, and felt the "great" earthquake, and saw & heard the angel, how is it that the next morning when they came "again" (if it really was again), they had no recollection of the previous evening's "earthshaking" events?

Posted: 12 May 2008, 00:01
by BrotherArnold
[quote="Watchman555"]Shalom Brother Arnold,

This is a interesting quote. I was wondering if you could provide some kind of link to where you found this so we might read a little bit before and after this particular quote. I myself, wouldn't be adamant to call this 'scripture' or consider it an absolute when it comes to when the day begins or even to prove that the first day of the week would always be on the 9th. Let me explain. The writings that come out of the Dead Sea Scrolls through our research we find that these writings from the Dead Sea Scrolls are in fact, dated from a time period after the Babylonian captivity. Through our research we have found that the Babylonians indeed kept an evening to evening day. We know also that the "jews" seem to conform to their captor's calendar. Point is, when they went into the Babylonian captivity they could have been keeping morning to morning when they came out, they could have been keeping evening to evening. In which it is quite possible if not probable that most of the writings henceforth would reflect the understanding of an evening to evening day.

RESPONSE; Shalom Brother Greg and All,
before we can discuss this line of thinking, we must address our preconceived notions that Babylon was on a different calendar than Israel.

There is no evidence that even suggest that Babylon observed different calendar than Israel. The Babylonians were also descendents of Adam through Noah and even a wicked civilization must have a calendar and weights and measures to survive and be great. They would need these two things for trading purposes and everyday life. Did you know that Babylon use the same weights and measures as Israel?
Even if they were back sliders and went after other gods same as Israel did, there would be no reason to change a perfectly good creation calendar and there's no Historical record that suggests they did. Remember Noah had three sons and they all would have kept the same creation calendar as well as their descendents. Where else would Babylon have received a notion of a seventh day Sabbath in the first place, if it had not been handed down from their father Adam? The Babylonians wore clothes same as Israel but they both received the idea of wearing clothes from Adam also. In other words the evidence shows that when Israel went into captivity to Babylon they both are wearing clothes and keeping the same calendar.

I believe my next post will give evidence that will show that when Israel has gotten so corrupt that the Heavenly Father allowed them to go into captivity to Babylon, BOTH Israel and Babylon were still on the creation calendar even up until and after the time of Daniel who ruled in Babylon under 4 or 5 different Kings. Daniel prophesied that there would be a future change of times and Laws which suggests that it had not happened yet. Daniel would not have allowed a bogus calendar in Babylon and besides that there was no need for another calendar even if they worshiped other gods same as Israel. Caesar full filled Daniel's prophecy and introduced another calendar that actually done away with one of the great lights/moon. In my next post I will give scriptural evidence that Nebuchadnezzar became a righteous man and YHWH even called him His servant etc..

Brother Arnold

In Defense of Babylon

Posted: 12 May 2008, 00:34
by BrotherArnold
Shalom All,
the following is some of my notes on Babylon and the calendar which would apply for the beginning of the day as well as the weekly Sabbath. I am just posting them for your consideration because you might find something in them that will help you understand that everything that Babylon done was not wrong. The Heavenly Father even had a church at Babylon and was recognized in the New Testament where it says the church at Babylon salutes thee.
Where did Babylon get the concept of a Sabbath day???? And where did they get the knowledge to find the Sabbath by counting from the new moon??? i.e. Babylon kept a Sabbath day and they found it by counting from the new moon. The question is where did they get the concept of a Sabbath in the first place and why did they count it from the new moon???

We know that the early descendants of Adam knew the creation story and how the Sabbath and calendar was reckoned. It only took 3 people for the information to be passed on from Adam to the flood. Adam lived 930 years and was living at the same time as Methuselah who live at the time of Noah and Methuselah died the same year of the flood and the creation story and the concept of Sabbaths was passed on from Methuselah to Noah and then by Noah's three sons were all the Isles of the Gentiles divided, who carried the creations story and the concept of a seventh day Sabbath and how it was determined by the great lights of Genesis 1:14, into all the world. There is no historical record of any other Sabbath other than by the great lights of Genesis 1:14 until after Daniel's prophecy of the little horn changing times and laws. This is a major embarrassment to Saturday Sabbath keepers.
We pointed out that the “great lights” are for seasons and that the Hebrew word “seasons” in Genesis 1:14 and Psalms 104:19 is the same word for “feast” in Leviticus 23:2 where it describes the first feast of Leviticus 23 as the weekly “feast.”
We argue that there's no scripture that teaches that the seventh day feast is not included with the other feast throughout the year which are by the great lights.
Some people say the word seasons/appointments in Genesis 1:14 only refers to the annual feasts/worship days and not the weekly feast worship day even though the Scripture does not say this.
This article is very damaging to the traditional Saturday Sabbath because when we trace the creation Sabbath and how it was kept to Babylon and other parts of the land, we see that the seventh day Sabbaths were by the phases of the moon and the descendents of Adam in Babylon is a prime example.
The historical evidence is overwhelming and conclusively show's that the seventh day feasts/seasons is included in Genesis 1:14, where it says the “great lights” are for seasons/feast, including the seventh day feast.
As we go along we will see how the early descendents of Adam, who multiplied and filled the earth, understood that the weekly feast/season was not excluded in Genesis 1:14 as some try to say in order to protect their tradition.

Abraham of the "Chaldeans" was taught by Noah's and his son Shem. What I am trying to show is if Abraham of the Chaldeans was living at the same time as Noah and Shem, then there are not that many people between creation and Babylon and the creation story of the Sabbath and how it was kept. The "ONLY" reason anyone would even suggest that these descendents of Adam who were living in Babylon, was keeping a different Sabbath than their father Adam is if the Sabbath they are keeping today does not line up with the Sabbath that was kept in Babylon which we know from historical evidence that it was by the phases of the moon. People today are keeping the Sabbath that Daniel prophesied of that came after the change of times and laws. i.e. the Sabbath and calendar of the little horn in the last days is wrong.
Babylon was a metropolitan city that Abraham and many of the descendents of Adam lived or visited and therefore it would be a “far stretch” to think that Babylon did not get the concept of a seventh day Sabbath and how it was observed from the creation story that was handed down from Adam to his descendents that settled in Babylon. There is “no historical evidence” of a Sabbath that is kept like the traditional Sabbath of today, yet people pretend they must have been, because of their tradition.
I am demonstrating how that Babylon could have had the concept of the Sabbath and how it was kept, when the descendents of Adam settled there in Babylon. We know the historical evidence proves that Babylon was keeping lunar Sabbaths by the phases of the moon which is in harmony with Genesis 1:14 which says let THEM (more than one) be for days and years, signs and seasons, which does “not exclude” the weekly appointments/season as some suggest, without any scriptural authority. i.e. the Babylon's Sabbath is in line with Genesis 1:14 without any exclusion or exception clause that is added by the traditional Sabbath keepers.
The bottom line is that the historical evidence does not support the accusation that the weekly Sabbath/season is not counted by the great lights as the other yearly worship appointments. As a matter of fact the historical evidence of the lunar Sabbaths calendars found in Babylon support the Scripture of Genesis 1:14 where it says, “let them be for seasons/appointments” (the weekly appointment/season not excluded as some suggest).

Daniel later prophesies, while in Babylon, that the little horn would think to change times and laws and Julius Cesar booted the moon out of the time keeping calendar in 46 B.C which is a fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy and the moon was one of the THEM's that is found in Genesis 1:14.

Wherever the little horn is today, she recognizes the modern-day sabbaths and the calendar that was changed from the one Daniel kept in Babylon.
If someone says Daniel kept Saturday Sabbath when he prophesied of the change by the little horn, then the change should have went from Saturday sabbaths to lunar Sabbaths but if Daniel was keeping lunar Sabbath and prophesied of a change, then it should have went from lunar Sabbaths to the Sabbath they are keeping today.
When Daniel prophesied of the future, how that the little horn would think to change times and laws, it ALSO tells us that in this time that Daniel is speaking, times and laws had not been changed yet. i.e. the calendar Daniel and Adam's descendents was keeping in Babylon was the creation calendar because the Sabbath had not been changed yet and all the historical evidence show that it was a solar lunar calendar.

Did Israel gets Lunar Sabbath from Babylon?

The answered is NO! Israel was already keeping lunar Sabbaths before they went into Babylonian captivity and this is proven from Scripture itself, Exodus 16 chapter and Acts 20.

Some people who fight against lunar Sabbaths create a straw man and then attack it. They say things like, do we really believe that Israel adopted the Sabbath from Babylon, as if lunar Sabbath proponents believe they did, which we don’t, and then they proceed to prove Israel was already keeping Sabbaths before they went into captivity, which we also believe that Israel was keeping Sabbaths before they went into captivity, but we believe they were by the phases of the moon, same as Babylon and can prove it.

There is conclusive proof that Israel was keeping the same lunar Sabbaths that Babylon was keeping BEFORE they went into Babylon captivity, which we will prove from Scripture. They don’t tell you things like Abraham and Adams descendents lived in and around Babylon and received the Sabbath there were keeping from Adam. To say that Israel adopted lunar Sabbaths from Babylon is like saying that they adopted wearing clothes from Babylon, but we know that the Israelites where were already keeping lunar Sabbaths and wearing clothes before they went into Babylon captivity. It is easy to say something, especially if it goes against our tradition, but the Scripture teaches us to prove all things.

No one denies the fact that Babylon observed lunar Sabbaths by the phases of the moon and there were even called Sabbaths and were connected to rest at the end of the lunar week. The Babylonians did not count the new Moon days when counting out the weeks which is a carbon copy of the many pinpointed weekly Sabbaths found in Scripture.

When the weekly Sabbath was first made known to Moses in Exodus 16 chapter, these weekly Sabbath were on the eight, 15th, 22nd, and 29th of the moon and the new moon day was NOT counted when counting out these weeks. When we count seven days backwards from the eighth of the month, it brings us to the second day of the month which would have been the first day of the week which proves the new moon day was not counted, same as with the Babylon calendars.

We have pinpointed 72 weekly Sabbaths found in Scripture and every one of them are on one of the four major phases of the moon and in the first week the Sabbath is always on the eighth of the month which conclusively proves the new moon day/day’s were not counted when counting out the weeks.

We actually find a weekly pinpointed Sabbath In the Book of Acts Chapter 20 where the weekly Sabbaths were on the four phases of the moon and the second day of the moon is actually called the first day of the week. They sailed away from Philippi after the days of an Unleavened bread and came unto them in Troy has in five days where we abode seven days and upon the first day of the week.

The straw man approach does not prove anything. The Babylonians wore clothing but that does not make it wrong to wear clothing. Sure they went after other gods same as Israel did but that don’t mean they changed the solar lunar calendar of Genesis 1:14 that was handed down to them from Adam, and it was the same calendar that Israel was keeping when they went into Babylonian captivity and the same calendar that Daniel was keeping when he prophesied that it was going to be changed in the future and that is the calendar that people are keeping today but when Daniel prophesied that it was going to be changed, indicates that it had not been changed at the time of Daniels prophecy, so what ever calendar that is recognized and being kept today is wrong because it is the one that Daniel prophesied it would be changed to.

Daniel and Nebuchadnezzar, after his conversion, observed lunar Sabbath the lunar Sabbath calendars traces back to the time of Daniel and Daniel was ruler in Babylon under FOUR different kings especially in religious matters because these Kings always ordered the people to worship the Mighty One of Daniel and Shad rack Meshack and Abindgo.

If Daniel would not eat the king’s meet when he was a very young nobody, why would he keep and allow a unscriptural calendar now that he is ruling in Babylon???

And from Daniels prophecy of the future change, proves that Babylon’s calendar was correct. The question should be was Babylon keeping the correct calendars? All the evidence from an eye witness that was present at that time shows that they were. People assume that Israel was keeping a different calendar than Babylon because of the traditional Jews Sabbath that they are keeping today which the Jews themselves admit are not correct and that the original Sabbaths were by the phases of the moon. This admission is found in the 1943 Universal Jewish Encyclopedia under the article week and Sabbath And Holy Days.

People try to discredit the Babylonian because of their idle worship, but the same can be said of Israel by using this exact same logic because we read in scripture where they worship all type of idle including the sun and moon, but did this make their Sabbath wrong? We need to forget our tradition and examine the Scripture to see if Babylon had the right calendar are not.

Is there any scriptural reason to believe that Babylon did not have the true Sabbaths?

It is a well-known fact that ancient Babylon observed Lunar Sabbaths by the phases of the moon but where did they get this concept of a weekly Sabbath and it being observed by the phases of the moon in the first place? Was it unscriptural?

did you know that Daniel was testing we want to make certain that we always place the weight of evidence upon a "thus saith Yahweh" NOT a "thus saith". . . "maybe" . . . "could be" . . . from a scholar who may be basing his opinions upon theories and inconclusive evidence

When people do not like the message they attack the messenger and this Is the case in Babylon. The message that the Babylonian calendar teaches, does not fit the traditional Roman calendar therefore they try to discredit the Babylonian because of their idle worship, but the same can be said of Israel by using this exact same logic because we read in scripture where they worship all type of idle including the sun and moon, but did this make their Sabbath wrong? We need to forget our tradition and examine the Scripture to see if Babylon had the right calendar are not.

A Chart of the Week, written by Dr. William Meade Jones, was published in 1886. In it he lists the days of the week as indicated by the 160 ancient languages of the world. Of the 160 languages and their words for the days of the week, 108 of them (two-thirds) identify the seventh day of the week as "sabbath", the word originally goes back to the creation Sabbath which were by the great lights of Genesis 1:14, but today the whole world has wondered after the number seven and called it Saturday, when originally it was by the cycle of the moon when traced back closer to the time of Adam. They have retained the name but have lost the day for a number.

Just like a Word Easter and Passover is preserved in many languages, the practice has changed from eating Passover lamb chops to eating Easter ham hocks and hunting Easter eggs. They Have Changed from worshiping the creator On the Day to worshiping who knows want, on the carnal number seven.

By and large, the original word "Sabbatu” ("shabbat" in Hebrew) has retained both its pronunciation and its meaning in many languages, but has went from the phases of the moon cycle, to a count of one through seven and the emphasis went from the day to a number and is called after the god Satur.

In many cases they specifically identify even the day with which it is associated. For instance, in Spanish the word sabado very clearly has retained the basic sound of the original word "Sabbatu” with only the sh sound being changed to an s sound as is typical for words brought into many languages. The really important thing, as it relates to this study, is that sabado specifically indicates the day of the week which is commonly known as "Saturday." Such uniformity throughout so many languages also suggests a common origin in ancient times—as well as a uniform cycle of seven days, since the word "Sabbath" itself is related to Hebrew words which actually mean "seven." If the original meaning of "Sabbath" was intended to point to floating sabbaths we would have found these words associated with different days of the week—or none, since it could have been any of them. And yet, this is not the way it has been throughout history and up to our own present day.

If the worship of other gods is what made the Babylonians lunar Sabbath wrong, then by the same logic, the Sabbath that Israel observed was also wrong. Just because Israel worshiped another god on the weekly Sabbath or a feast day, did not make the Sabbath wrong.

People put more emphasis on the carnal number seven than they do the Sabbath itself. The number seven is merely a vehicle leading you to the Sabbath. The number seven is not the Sabbath, the Sabbath is a day that comes after six ordinary workdays and the workdays can only be found by the moon because it will beacon the days which are Holy.

The seventh day AFTER six workdays is Holy. The seventh day after the Day of Atonement is not Holy because you have a no work day on the 15th and you must have a seventh day after six workdays. The seventh day of the new moon/month is not Holy, because the new moon is a worship day and is not one of the six ordinary workdays but the seventh day after the new moon worship day is Holy, because It comes after six workdays. So you see the number seven is not what is Holy but is only a way to get you to The Holy Day. Through superstition and tradition, man has made the carnal number seven a lucky number and a cycle that is not found In nature. They done this by putting the emphasis on the number itself instead of the Sabbath day. They even make the number seven the most significant number in a dice game.

Defense of Babylon’s Calendar

No one denies that Babylon observed Lunar Sabbaths but they are not asking the right questions. Here are some of the questions that are asked,

Where did the Babylonians get the concept of a week and keeping the seventh day of the week, in the first place?

Did the Babylonians get the lunar Sabbaths calendar from Israel, when Israel went into captivity?

Did the Babylonians already have the lunar sabbath calendar before Israel went into captivity and received it from their ancestors Adam and no one?

The name of their seventh day of the lunar week was called by a name that was same as the Hebrew Sabbath Sabb

What evidence do we have from Scripture and history that the Babylonian calendar was right or wrong?

The scriptural evidence show that Babylon’s calendar and lunar Sabbaths were right and I will explain.

The Scripture teaches that Daniel and the Hebrew children ruled Babylon under four different Rulers especially in religious matters.

The Scripture shows that these rulers were converted to worship Daniels Master and that these calendars dated back to the time of Daniel and Daniel would not put up with any junk.

Babylonians on Trial – Charged with causing the Jews to keep a false Sabbath.

The Defense speaks:

Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury,

You are charged today to base your verdict on the evidence ALONE. You will be presented with historical evidence that has been acknowledged by both Lunar Sabbath and Saturday Sabbath keepers alike.

We will show that the Babylonians AND the Jews from secular history and Scripture BOTH kept a lunar-based Sabbath during the period of Judah’s captivity, reported to be between 600-501 BCE.

Your task today will be to decide whether or not this nation of Babylon influenced the Jews to keep a false and pagan system of Sabbath keeping from a day corresponding to Saturday to a lunar Sabbath.

The evidence will show that there is no record in secular or Scriptural history from creation to Babylon that proves ANY nation kept a Sabbath was tied to any calendar system except the lunar system.

The evidence will also show from Scripture that during the Babylonian captivity, ALL of the religious influence was on Babylon by the Jews and there is nothing in the Scripture that shows the Jews being religiously influenced by Babylon during the captivity.

And finally, the evidence will show that Daniel’s prophecy stating that the “little horn” who thought to “change times and laws” was a change from lunar Sabbaths to Saturday Sabbaths and NOT Saturday to Sunday; And from a lunar based calendar to a Roman based calendar. We believe the reason this accusation has been levied against the nation of Babylon is because current Sabbath keepers are looking back at the time change from the “little horn’s” perspective.

In other words, from the perspective that current Saturday Sabbaths are correct, they conclude that the alleged “Babylonian” Sabbath must have been false. Irrefutably we will show that whatever calendar is being kept today is of the “little horn” and therefore false.

When Philo speaks of the sacred seventh day and says “for what man is there who does not honor that SACRED SEVENTH DAY, granting in consequence a relief and relaxation from labor”, it is obvious that he is including the Babylonians because Philo believe and understood that the Babylonians had the law of ? Written in their language long before the Greeks ever had it written in theirs, as the following scriptures and Historical evidence will show. This proves that Babylon was keeping the correct lunar Sabbath days, at least Philo thought so, from his writings which we will see later. Abraham Observed the Commandments, the statutes and the laws Of His Creator Genesis 26:5.

Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, commanded that skillful men of the childrenn of Israel be chosen, in whom was wisdom, knowledge and understanding of science etc. whom he could teach their language, names the language. Daniel 1:4 they were found to be10 times smarter than the Babylonian astrologers, sounds like they knew about the calendar. Daniel 1:19 and 20

From this scriptural evidence we know what language the Babylon people spoke, and from the Historical evidence we know that the Law of Moses was written in their language long before it was written in the Greek language called the “blank”L. X. X.

Philo speaks of ancient history that shows the Babylonians had the Law of Moses written in their language long BEFORE the Greeks had it written in their language, in essence before the LXX. which was written around 285 B.C. a man named ??? Had the law translated from the Babylonian language to Greek I don’t believe Philo had any bones to pick or any hidden agenda to say that the Babylonians had the law written in their language and it stayed that way for a long time and eventually the Jewish people that spoke Greek wanted to read the Scripture in their language also. This could explain how Abraham observed the law of the Creator because it was written down in Abraham’s language which was the language of the Babylonians. give scripture about Abraham

The Greeks had to depend on either the Hebrews or the Babylonians that could also speak Greek, to tell them what the Scripture said, and I believe both would tell them to keep lunar Sabbaths, and that there is only One All Powerful Creator, even though both of them had many gods at one time or the other, but neither of them would have changed calendars until Julius Caesar thought to make a better one, than the one they had, see encyclopedia under calendar.

If the Babylonians had the Law of Moses, written in their language, and the law Moses showed how to keep the true Sabbath, why do people question the correctness of lunar Sabbaths UNLESS it is because the Jews today do not keep lunar Sabbaths?

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Babylon changed the creation calendar that was handed to Adam then Louisville, then no one, then Abraham of the Babylonians. Just because Babylon went after other gods same as Israel did, does not mean that Israel or Babylon change the creation calendar and Sabbath and the fact that Daniel prophesied that this would take place in the future, proves that it had NOT taken place at the time of Daniel.

The Jews themselves admit that the true weekly Sabbaths were originally by the phases of the moon, yet they follow the traditions of men but our Saviour said whatsoever they say is right but don’t do after their works for they say and do not. They also admit that they do not know where the Sabbath that they keep today came from, yet blind people still follow them, knowing they have been blinded.

Daniel 2:46 through 47 shows Nebuchadnezzar worship Daniel and acknowledged his Most High and verse 48 make Daniel rumor over the whole province or Providence of Babylon AFTER Daniel interpreted his dream.

Daniel 3:26 Nebuchadnezzar acknowledges the three Hebrew children’s Creating. And in verse 28 he blessed the Creator. And verse 30 promoted them even higher up in Babylon.

Daniel 4:34 and 37 QUICK VERSE shows Nebuchadnezzar repented and converted to serve Daniel’s Creator. We know that He chastises those he loves and Nebuchadnezzar was chastised and brought back to serve the Heavenly Father. And the church that was at Babylon salutes the.

Daniel 5:29 Daniel was made third ruler in the Kingdome for one night, then king Darius made him number one in his kingdom

Daniel 6:1 through three shows King Darius was a good man and verse 14 shows him laboring until evening to deliver Daniel. First 16 shows he was a man of faith In Daniel’s Creator and encourages Daniel and verse 18 shows he fasted for Daniel and could not sleep and first 19 he hurried to check on Daniel and first 20 was crying for Daniel and verse 26 commands everyone to serve Daniels Creator QUICK VERSE 26 plus

The moon is mentioned two times in the book of Daniel

and we know the book of Daniel prophesied of a future change of times and laws and therefore lunar Sabbaths had not been changed during the time of Daniel

The three Babylonian rulers that searched out the law, that was written in their language, to find out how they could get Daniel in trouble with the king Darius. Daniel and his companions had to be taught the language of the Babylonians and it is not likely that these three men spoke Hebrew but could read the law that Daniel followed, in their own language.

What were the Hebrews before they were called Hebrews???

What was Abraham before he was called a Hebrew???

What were the Israelites before there were called Israelites???

Did they speak the AdamI. C. K. language??? or the language of Adam?

What were the Jews before they were called Jews?

the law was given at Mount Sinai but was this for the first time ever, had it been given before then, or was it refreshed upon them after the Egypt’s bondage? Pentecost commemorates the giving of the law BUT Pentecost also represents a NEW MEAT offering and the new meat offering at Pentecost could be referring to a renewed law instead of a new law, same as new moon is a renewed moon therefore it was not a brand-new law at Mount Sinai but they had lost It in the Egyptian captivity and it was renewed to Moses at Mount Sinai, but it was same law that was given to Abraham. I believe the righteous man know and his son semis had a copy of the law on the ship and Sheehan told it to Abraham, in the Adam I. C. K. language in the Arabic language Hebrew language Celtic language, Talmudic language, Germanic language, Baltic language, etc.

I would think it most reasonable to think that Abraham’s two sons spoke the same language as Abraham and if one son went into captivity in Egypt and heard another language for so many years, it would be them that changed to a different language than their father Abraham, not Ishmael and the language of the Egyptians were from the tower of bubble but Abrahams language was not changed at the tower but Hans was. I think it’s fair to say that Moses spake two different language, having two mothers and I can see how the other Israelites speech could have been affected after 400 years but not so with Abrahams other son.

if the above reasoning is true and the descendents of our Father Abraham that did not go into captivity are speaking the Arabic language, it is a fair assumption that that is the language that Abraham spoke even though he lay with an Egyptian to get his son
Brother Arnold

Re: When Does the Day Begin?

Posted: 21 Feb 2014, 19:43
by Watchman555
This is where the problem starts -

There are two schools of thought.

The first is,


And {Elohim} called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning WERE the first day.

The assumption with this is that Elohim is telling us what a day consists of, an evening and a morning are what a day is comprised of..

And we are told this for six days, yet He does not say this on the 7th. We are to believe that we are not intelligent enough to understand what a day consists of; therefore, He had to tell us six days in a row. That is what the king james conveys.

The other is:


And Elohim called the light ‘day’ and the darkness He called‘night.’ And THERE CAME TO BE evening and THERE CAME TO BE morning, the first day.

Now we can see that the ISR words this differently. So the second school of thought is that Elohim is giving us an order in which things took place. Much like He is showing us the order for the first 7 days. It was all given in order.

Our thought is that on the first day Elohim made light come to be, come to be is the exact same word that is used in verse 5. We see this as Elohim is giving us the order in which things took place. The light came to be, He called the light day and the darkness night and He separated the light from the darkness and then came evening and then came morning. Again, this is the same word used to describe the light that came to be. When He said light come to be the light came to be. So we use this 'come to be' in the same context as He did with light.

This is the word that is used:


A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, BE or BECOME, COME TO PASS (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): -beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like),break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow,happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.

This word means “be” or “become”, “come to pass”. So we see an order taking place rather than a description of what a day consists of.

With that in mind we have to question why would the kjv leave out the word “come to be” but first we must check our resources to see if this is true.

The link provided above shows us that the word /hayah/ is indeed used twice – not just once as the king james conveys.

Lets compare this again


And {Elohim} called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning WERE the first day.


And Elohim called the light ‘day’ and the darkness He called‘night.’ And THERE CAME TO BE evening and THERE CAME TO BE morning, the first day.


From viewing this we can see that has left the /hayah/in the Hebrew but when it shows us in the English /hayah/ is no whereto be found. They took it out twice, but not really because its still there in the Hebrew. So to the not-so-diligent they wouldn't even understand that blueletter has corrupted the understanding.


Now here we can see they actually left it intact. The truth is the kjv corrupts Genesis 1:5 by taking away from which is forbidden in the Torah. By their act of treason against the Word they have corrupted the understanding of the text which is giving us a time line and not telling us what a day consists of.

Line upon line, precept upon precept. Here is what Yahusha teaches us concerning the day:

Yahusha answered,“ARE THERE NOT TWELVE HOURS IN THE DAY? If anyone walks in the day,he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world.

“For the reign of the heavens is like a man, a householder who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard.
2 “And when he had agreed with the workers for a silver piece A DAY, he sent them into his vineyard.
3 “And he went out about the THIRD HOUR and saw others standing idle in the market-place,
4 and said to them, ‘You too go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I shall give you.’ And they went.
5 “Having gone out again about the SIXTH and the NINTH HOUR, he did likewise.
6 “And about the ELEVENTH HOUR, having gone out, he found others standing idle, and said to them, ‘Why do you stand here idle all day?’
7 “They said to him, ‘Because no one hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You too go into the vineyard, and whatever is right you shall receive.’
9 “And when those came who were hired about the eleventh hour,they each received a silver piece.
10 “And when the first came, they thought they would receive more. But they too received each a silver piece.
11 “And when they received it, they grumbled against the householder,
12 saying, ‘THESE LAST HAVE WORKED ONLY ONE HOUR, and you made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.’

He went out in the morning and hired workers – they worked the 12 hours of the day – when the 12th hour was over – which was EVENING - he paid them their wages.

Morning – day –evening

Deu 24:14-15
14 “Do not oppress a hired servant who is poor and needy, of your brothers or of the strangers who is in your land within your gates.
15 “GIVE HIM HIS WAGES ON THE SAME DAY, and do not let the sun go down on it, for he is poor and lifts up his being to it, so that he does not cry out against you to Yahuah,and it shall be sin in you.


This totally destroys the understanding that the day begins in the evening. If you had to pay them that same day and evening begins the next day then you'd have to pay them before the 12thhour is over and the sun sets. It wouldn't even be possible to make sure that his pay is not remaining with you all night until morning UNLESS the morning began the NEXT day.

AND WHEN EVENING CAME, WHEN THE SUN HAD SET, they brought to Him all who were sick and those who were demon-possessed.

According to evening to evening Yahusha's parable of the 11th hour worker shows very clearly that it was not until after the 12th hour when evening came that the workers were paid. This would be a direct transgression against the law that specifically says, “give him his wages on the same day”.

Mark1:32 tells us exactly when evening came to be – when the sun set.

The king james version has been corrupted.

The proof is in the text.

“Do not add to the Word which I command you, and do not takeaway from it, so as to guard the commands of Yahuah your Elohim which I am commanding you.