"The fear of יהוה is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Set-apart One is understanding"

When Does the Day Begin?

For the open discussion of all calendar related issues.

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HeHoldsMyHand
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Postby HeHoldsMyHand » 22 Nov 2007, 15:56

What the spirit of YHWH has shown me through the word has perfect timing and I am happy to share that with anybody who is searching. All one must do is ask

Kathy,

Please tell!!

Lindsey

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Re: Perhaps

Postby eriqbenel » 22 Nov 2007, 21:09

kathybyers2000 wrote:Thanks for your input Arnold.

What the spirit of YHWH has shown me through the word has perfect timing and I am happy to share that with anybody who is searching. All one must do is ask :)

Shalom,

Kathy


Shalom Sister kathy,

If what you say can be supported with adequate Scriptural interpretation and/or documented facts of history, etc... then I would love to know what you have... I'm just a little leery of people who say the "spirit" gave them something and there is no support for it. Too many cults get started that way.
(I speak in general. Not that you are doing this)

Whenever the "Spirit" of YHWH reveals something, it has ALWAYS been backed up with EVENTS, or FACTS or something that proves it was true.
Shalom in the name of YHWH,

Eriq

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Wow!

Postby kathybyers2000 » 25 Nov 2007, 03:48

This topic has been reopened in my heart and YHWH is speaking to me. It appears that a change in my understanding is occuring and for this reason, I am not comfortable to share at this time what I currently understand. Please trust that when YHWH is finished within me I am happy to rejoin and share what new thing has been revealed to me.

Until then, I pray that all of you have a blessed shabbat to day and every day.

Shalom,

Kathy

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Re: Wow!

Postby Chayil_Ishshah » 25 Nov 2007, 04:47

kathybyers2000 wrote:This topic has been reopened in my heart and YHWH is speaking to me. It appears that a change in my understanding is occuring and for this reason, I am not comfortable to share at this time what I currently understand. Please trust that when YHWH is finished within me I am happy to rejoin and share what new thing has been revealed to me.

Until then, I pray that all of you have a blessed shabbat to day and every day.

Shalom,

Kathy


Shalom Kathy,

We hope you would still bless us with your appearance here while Yahuah is still working with you in this matter. We are excited to hear what Yahuah is showing you and we will be patient while He does so.

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Postby JMSchattke » 08 Jan 2008, 15:38

I had been hoping there was something in this passage:

Act 20:7 And on the first day of the week,the taught ones having gathered together to break bread, Sha'ul, intending to depart the next day, was reasoning with them and was extending the word till midnight.

but, unfortunately, the scripture is not explicit that they had continued the Sabbath day discussions late into the "first day".

Mat 27:57 And when evening came, there came a rich man from Ramathayim, named Yosĕph, who himself had also become a taught one of יהושע.
Joh 19:42 There, then, because of the Preparation Day of the Yehuḏim, they laid יהושע, because the tomb was near.

That seems to indicate that the Holy day must not have started; which is odd. That 'evening' stuff.

Mat 28:1 Now after the Sabbath, toward dawn on the first day of the week, Miryam from Maḡdala and the other Miryam came to see the tomb.
Mar 16:1 And when the Sabbath was past, Miryam from Maḡdala, and Miryam the mother of Yaʽaqoḇ, and Shelomah bought spices, to go and anoint Him.
Luk 24:1 And on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came to the tomb, bringing the spices which they had prepared,
Luk 24:2 and they found the stone rolled away from the tomb.
Joh 20:1 And on the first day of the week Miryam from Maḡdala came early to the tomb, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been removed from the tomb.

Leaves it either way, unfortunately. The sense (in greek) is a while after the sabbath.
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Postby BrotherArnold » 14 Jan 2008, 20:39

Numbers 19:16 teaches that a man that touches a dead body shall be unclean for for SEVEN DAYS and in verse 19 it teaches the seventh day ENDED at evening, therefore all the seven 24-hour days ended at evening. These seven days were obviously 24-hour day periods.

Verse 19 says "And on the SEVENTH DAY he shall purify himself, and wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and shall be CLEAN at even.

RESPONSE; if the seventh day ended at sunrise as some suggest, instead of evening, that would only be 6 and 1/2 days of being unclean instead of seven days. You would be half-day short, disobeying scripture, but if the seventh day ended at evening when the man was made CLEAN, it would be a full seven days of being UNCLEAN as verse 19 teaches. This alone disapproves the day beginning at sunrise theory.


Remember the man was made clean at evening of the full seventh day, according to scripture, not sun rise.

Verse 16 specifically says that the man shall be unclean for SEVEN DAYS and if the seven days did not end until sunrise, then the man WOULD NOT be unclean for seven days as the Scripture teaches.


In the book of Judges Chapter 14:12 Sampson made a bet with some men, that they could not answer his riddle WITHIN a period of SEVEN DAYS. In verse 18 the riddle was answered WITHIN the seven-day period. Verse 18 says, "And the men of the city said unto him on the SEVENTH DAY "BEFORE" the sun went down, (they answered the riddle before sundown on the seventh day)

Why was the phrase "BEFORE the sun went down" used, unless it emphasized that the time would have been up at sundown, but they answered it before the seventh day ended. I.e. it ended the seven days that were allotted to answer the riddle?

We all know that any bet such as the one above has to have a "DEADLINE" as to when the time is up and according to the conditions of verse 12, they had to answer it out WITHIN the seven-day period.

The above is like saying, in today's speech, "And the men of the city said unto him on the SEVENTH DAY "BEFORE" 12 midnight,

The reason for this is because in today's speech the day ends at 12 midnight and back then, they used sundown to end the day instead of 12 midnight.

They did not have to add "Before the sun went down", they could have just said they answered it on the seventh day period. They were merely stressing that the Riddle was answered before the seven days were up, at sundown. When you coupled this with Numbers 19:16-19, and the many other scriptures that conclusively proves the 24-hour day cannot scripturally began at morning.


Guinness 8:3 says that it was the END of the hundred and 50 days that the waters were abated and verse 11 says that the Dove came to Noah in the EVENING and then he knew that the waters had abated off the face of the earth. These hundred and 50 days were 24-hour day periods that ended at evening when the Dove returned.
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...

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See www.lunarsabbath.info

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Postby YHWHsavesdotcom » 01 Feb 2008, 00:18

It seems to me that the only way for scripture to be consistent in understanding the 'dividing of time' (which I elaborate on in the 'calendar' section of this forum and in my website), is to understand that the day of man begins with darkness and YHWH brings us out of the darkness by shining his light upon us. When this spiritual application is followed, the temporal, created order understanding can be properly understood as well.

Conversely, if this hermenuetical principle is not applied, one cannot help but stumble in darkness. It's better to keep silent so as to be presumed wise, than to flaunt your folly as a teacher of fools and suffer for it.

YHWH blesses those who diligently seek his face

Obed YHWH

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Day ends at evening NOT sunrise

Postby BrotherArnold » 19 Feb 2008, 04:00

I will give a few conclusive proofs from Scripture and Historical evidence why the day "CAN NOT" possibly begin at sunrise.

IF ANY ONE OF THE FOLLOWING IS RIGHT, IT DOES AWAY WITH THE MORNING TO MORNING DOCTRINE.

The first one will show that the day BEFORE the seven days of unleavened bread began at evening. The Last Supper was eaten on the night of the 14th and we all know that our Saviour was crucified on the day light portion of the 14th and therefore the 14th day had to have begun at evening. i.e. there was evening and there was morning day 14 of the first month and the 14th is the day "Before" the 7 days of Unleavened Bread which BEGINS on the 15th which begins on the 14th day at even and goes until the 21st day at evening. Ex-12:18 If you can accept any one of the following, it kills the sunrise theory.

"Exhibit A"

He ate the last supper on the day that the lambs are to be slain (Luke 22:7-71 and Mark 14:12-17) and we know from the Old Testament Scriptures (Lev-23 etc.) that the lambs are slain on the 14th and both Luke and Mark teaches that they came together at evening on the day that the Passover lambs are slain therefore they had to have came together on the night that began the 14th, because the 14th is the day that the lambs are slain, and he died during the day light portion of the same 14th and according to this the Scriptural day begins at evening.

The Scripture teaches that the first day of unleavened bread is on the 15th day of the first month (Leviticus 23:6) and continues for seven days (Exodus 12:15). The Scripture teaches that these seven days shall be observed from the 14th day at evening until the 21st day at evening (Exodus 12:17-18).

Notice that it is conclusive that the first day of these seven days which is the 15th begins on the 14th day at evening.

I would like to point out that "If" the first day of unleavened bread "is" on the 15th and the 15th begins on the 14th day at evening, then by default and by deductive reasoning, the "14th day" would begin on the "13th day" at evening, and this chain reaction or domino effect will go all the way back to creation. This is an absolute and the following will prove it. Side note, the same applies to the Day of Atonement.

It is easy to say things like this, same as it is easy to say the day bens at sunrise, but I will prove from Scripture that the 14th day began on the 13th day at evening, same as I have proven from Scripture that the 15th day began on the 14th day at evening.

Our Saviour ate the Last Supper on the 14th, and then was crucified on the same 14th after sunrise during the daylight, and this could only happened if the day began at evening, therefore the 24-hour day CAN NOT began at sunrise if the Last Supper was eaten at the end of the 13th (at evening) which is the beginning of the 14th BECAUSE He was crucified on the "SAME" 14th during the day. i.e. If the 24-hour day does not begin until sunrise, how could He have ate the last supper at evening on the 14th "Before sunrise" and died around three o'clock on the same 14th after sunrise???

The following Scriptures will prove that He ate this last meal on the 14th at evening on the day that the lambs are be slain. The Last Supper was at the beginning of the 14th and most everyone rightfully agrees that He was crucified on the 14th which is the preparation day and the Sabbath (15th) drew on.

We know from Mark and Luke that the supper took place at the beginning of the 14th , which is after the 13th day at evening, because it says in Mark 14:17-18, "And in the evening He cometh with the twelve. And as they sat and did eat"

Notice this would have to be at the end of the 13th day at evening which is the beginning of the 14th because it says in Luke 22:7 "Then came the day of unleavened bread when the Passover must be killed"? and we know the Passover is killed on the 14th therefore they had to have ate the Last Supper on the beginning of the 14th day which is the same day that the lambs are to be killed.

Mark 14:12 reads "And the first day of unleavened bread when they killed the Passover. We know from Scripture that the Passover lambs are killed on the 14th and eaten that night/15th with unleavened bread and the 15th began on the 14th day at evening and as I have shown and will show that the 14th began on the 13th day at evening, same as the 15th began on the 14th day at evening.

Some say the word "First" in Mark 14:12 can and should have been translated "Before" and then the verse would read "Before the first day of unleavened bread when they killed the Passover" but it is not my intent to deal with the seemingly contradictions here but to show that they ate the Last Supper at the beginning of the 14th which actually begun on the 13th day at evening, same as the 15th day actually begun on the 14th day at evening at evening which is the first day of the seven days of unleavened bread.

SUMMARY
Most people correctly acknowledge that the 7 days of Unleavened Bread begins and ends at evening and above I have demonstrated how the "Day before" the 7 days of Unleavened Bread "Also" began and ended at evening and this domino effect would go all the way back to creation, by using deductive reasoning. i.e. if the seven days of unleavened bread begins and ends at evening and the day before the seven days of unleavened bread begins and ends at evening then by default the other days follow suit all the way back to creation where He said the evening and the morning were the first day or there was evening and there was morning day one.

From the 14th day at evening through the morning to the second day of Unleavened Bread (which also begins at evening) you have a complete day of evening and morning on the 15th, this is using the same principle as in Gen-1, the evening and morning were the first day/15th. the evening and morning were the second day/16th, and so forth to the evening and morning of the seventh day/21st.

I also demonstrated how our Saviour ate the last supper on the evening of the 14th and was crucified on the morning of the same 14th, which is in perfect harmony with creation which says there was evening and there was morning day one. Now I will move on to some abominations that those who accept the sunrise theory must be involved in.
The sunrise proponents like to say that YHWH done His creating during the day but it was "Dark" when YHWH created the heavens and the earth and He caused the light to shine "Out of darkness"? even before there was any light.
Here's a little demonstration of how the preparation day before the Passover and also the seven days of unleavened bread can be compared with the creation week.

When "Evening" was come He sat down with the 12, which was on the day that the Passover lambs are to be slain (14th,) to eat the Last Supper and when "Morning" was come He was before Pilate and was crucified between the evenings and died around three o'clock on the 14th, and there was Evening and there was Morning on the Preparation Day and the Sabbath drew on.. Or you could say "It became evening and it became morning"

Then on the 14th day at "Evening" (which begins the 15th,) they ate the Passover with unleavened bread which is the "First" day of unleavened bread and in the "Morning" they burned what was left with fire and there was evening and there was morning the "First day" of unleavened bread. Or you could say, "It became evening and it became morning day one" of unleavened bread.

When the Seventh day Sabbath/15th, or "First day" of the seven days of unleavened bread had passed that "Evening" the "Second day" of unleavened bread began , which begins the "First day" of the week, they bought more spices and brought them with them to the sepulcher very early in the "Morning" at the rising of the sun on the "Same first" day of the week, and there was evening and there was morning the "Second day" of unleavened bread. Or you could say "It became evening and it became morning day two".

When the second day of unleavened bread ended at evening, the third day of unleavened bread began and "There was evening and there was morning day three" this evening then morning continues throughout the seven days of unleavened bread same as "It became evening and it became morning" on the day before the seven days of unleavened bread and all this can be compared all this with Genesis, where it says, and "It became evening and it became morning day 1 2 3 4 5 6 7”



"Exhibit B,

Exodus the 16th chapter "(Did YHWH Break His Own Law?????)

The following Scriptures conclusively proves the day could NOT begin at sunrise or YHWH would be guilty of breaking His own Law and teaching His children of Israel to do the same. YHWH is not the minister of Sin? (Law breaking)

Exodus the 16th chapter conclusively pinpoints a weekly Sabbath on the 15th day of the second month after leaving Egypt. "IF" that Sabbath day began at sunrise as some suggest, the children of Israel would have been gathering quail that "Evening", on the weekly Sabbath day, which is a against the Law of YHWH.
Exodus 16:1-13 teaches how YHWH spoke to Moses on the 15th day of the second month, (which is irrefutably proven to be a weekly Sabbath,) telling him that he had heard their murmurings and would give them quail in the "Evening" and manna in the morning.
12 "I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel: speak unto them, saying, At "Even" ye shall eat flesh, and in the morning ye shall be filled with bread; and ye shall know that I am YHWH your Elohim.
13And it came to pass, that at "Even" the quails came up, and covered the camp: and in the morning the dew lay round about the host.


The reason YHWH waited until evening before giving quail is because the Sabbath day which YHWH sanctified and hallowed at creation would end at evening, and the children would not be gathering the quail in Holy Time.

He would not be delivering Quail on this Holy sanctified Sabbath day for the children of Israel to catch, clean, cook and eat, and therefore the 15th day had to have "Ended at evening" or the Creator would have broken His own Law and caused his people to commit sin by delivering the quails on the Holy Sabbath for them to catch, clean, cook and eat. It seems that some people are willing to believe this in order to protect an erroneous understanding of Genesis 1. Is this what you want?

Do you really want to believe that the YHWH was a SINNER and broken His own Law???
Sin is this transgression of the Law and the Law teaches not to do any work on the weekly Sabbath. They were not even allowed to gather manna on the Sabbath, let alone quail.

The sunrise proponents have to believe that quail was given and gathered on the Holy Shabbat and I wont "Nothing" to do with a doctrine that forces me to believe such.

The quails arrived that night after the weekly Sabbath was over at evening, and it was on the first day of the week that the children of Israel gathered and ate them between the evenings i.e. the evening that ended the seventh day/15th and the evening that would end the first day of the week/16th. If this be not the case, a very serious death penalty sin had taken place, for them to have done this on the sacred Holy Sabbath day.

If they were not allowed to gather manna on the Holy seventh day, they would not be allowed to gather quail either. "If" the quails were given on the holy Sabbath for the people to clean and eat, then the people that went out to gather manna on the next Sabbath (22nd) could "Justifiably" say that they gathered the quails on the previous Sabbath/15th and could truthfully say that gathering manna would not be nearly as bad as gathering quails because you do not have to clean manna as you would a quail.

Of course I don't believe the quails were gathered on the weekly Sabbath/15 and neither would anyone that did not have a doctrine to protect. As I said before, the quails did not come until the evening which ended the Sabbath day and began the first day of the week and this is what Moses and Aaron says, in verse 6,
6And Moses and Aaron said unto all the children of Israel, At even, then ye shall know that YHWH hath brought you out from the land of Egypt:�….
8And Moses said, This shall be, when YHWH shall give you in the evening flesh to eat, and in the morning bread to the full;

13And it came to pass, that at even the quails came up, and covered the camp: and in the morning the dew lay round about the host. (The Hebrew word for even and evening in this verse is the same word for evening in Gen-1).

These verses show how that nothing was going to happen until evening, the reasoning for this is the weekly Sabbath would not be over until then. I would ask the question, why wait until evening unless for the reason that the weekly seventh day ended at evening?????


"Exhibit C.

It Is "Impossible" To Have A 3rd Day Resurrection if you believe the sunrise theory and the Scripture clearly teaches He must rise the third day.

Here is something to consider for those who believe the day begins at sunrise or only begins in the morning and consists only of 12 hours. We agree that one definition (the narrow) of the word "Day" consists of only 12 hours, but when this same word is studied in different contexts in the totality of Scripture we see it can have several meanings.

Our Messiah died on the 14th of Aviv, the same day the Passover lambs had been slaughtered for centuries prior to his death. For those who reckon the day from sunrise to sunrise, the Messiah died on the 14th of Aviv and then the evening of the 14th came afterwards, with the weekly Sabbath beginning the morning of the 15th at sunrise. This poses a serious problem when it comes to the resurrection day of the Messiah. If the 1st day of the week will not begin until the sunrise of the 16th of Aviv, and then the Messiah would have resurrected BEFORE sunrise on the SECOND day, instead of the 3rd day.

All the gospel accounts agree that when the women came to the tomb it was very early in the morning, and the gospel according to John (20th chapter) tells us this occurred "While it was yet dark" (KJV). How can it be then that the Messiah rose the 3RD DAY ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES if He rose before the 3rd day began????

The day of his death (14th) would be day one, and the day of the Sabbath (15th) would be day two, and day three would not begin until sunrise of the 16th for the sunrise to sunrise proponents. This means it is an impossibility for this theology to align its understanding with what the Bible teaches about the third day resurrection predicted by the Messiah himself over 10 times and corroborated by the Apostle Shaul in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

This is not to mention that this teaching also has the Messiah rising on the Sabbath, rather than the 1st day of the week; a teaching that shows similarity with 72 hour proponents. The Scriptures make it very clear that the sheaf of first-fruits (barley) was to be waved on the MORROW AFTER THE SABBATH (Lev. 23:10-16), and NOT on the Sabbath itself. A sunrise to sunrise view has our Messiah resurrected on the Sabbath (2nd day) instead of the morrow after the Sabbath (3rd day) as the Scripture teaches.

In closing, we must also mention that for those espousing a 12 hour Sabbath, one which begins at morning and ends at dusk, has the Messiah rising on a NON-DAY, during the night. This teaching has the Messiah not rising on the Sabbath OR the first day of the week (the 3rd day, 16th), but on what they consider to not be a day at all. The 12 noon people have the same problems.

The Scriptures will all harmonize if we can only see that the word "Day" in Scripture has a broader definition, and not only one narrow definition of the daylight hours. With an evening to evening day, which the Bible clearly teaches (Gen. 1:5;Ex. 12:17; Lev. 23:32) the Messiah can be impaled on the 14th, rest on the Sabbath for the entire 15th day, and as the next day begins (the evening of the 16th) he resurrects (ready to work) before morning, but yet still on the 3rd day " according to the Scriptures (1 Cor. 15:1-4) " on the morrow after the Sabbath (Lev. 23:10-16).

PS. Some may object to our line of reasoning by saying that the Messiah resurrected the split second the daylight hours began on the 16th, but this is unsound for the following reason(s). All four gospel accounts agree that the women came to the tomb very early in the morning, with John's gospel elaborating a bit further that this was while it was yet dark, and another says, as it began to dawn toward the 1st day of the week. All gospel accounts show that the women were amazed that he was not there, and as the angelic messenger(s) proclaimed "HE IS NOT HERE, HE HAS RISEN. This proves beyond doubt that our Messiah had already risen prior to the daylight hours, but yet, as noted above, this was still on the 3rd day according to the evening to evening view, but the 2nd day according to the sunrise or 12 noon view.

We see from the above that the sunrise proponents can NOT have a third day resurrection and this alone kills the sunrise doctrine.


"Exhibit d"

SPICES
The next proof that the day COULD NOT scripturally begin at sunrise is taken from the New Testament and is much like the case in Ex- 16. The women bought spices "After" the Sabbath was over and brought these spices with them to the grave on the first day of the week while it was yet dark (before sunrise) on the same first day of the week.

If the Sabbath was not over until sunrise, how is it possible to bring spices that they bought after the Sabbath was over and bring them (while it is yet dark) on the first day of the week BEFORE sunrise?? Or even at the rising of the sun on the first day of the week?

There would be no time to buy spices after the Seventh day was over and bring them on the first day of the week at sunrise if the day began and ended at sunrise. This is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE . Yet the sunrise proponents must believe this, and it is a real embarrassment to their doctrine.



"Exhibit E"


"Historical Evidence"

Another way to find the truth as to how the Jews of our Saviors day understood when a day begins and ends is to go to someone that was there. We should not accept "Modern" history but when you go back to the time of the Messiah and read the writings of those that lived in that day, it gives us an understanding of how the writers and those who read the writings understood things.

The following Historical evidence teaches the seventh day ended at evening/night.


Josephus writes in

WARS OF THE JEWS book 4 CHAPTER 9 (582)

THAT VESPASIAN, AFTER HE HAD TAKEN GADARA, MADE PREPARATION FOR THE SIEGE OF JERUSALEM; BUT THAT, UPON HIS HEARING OF THE DEATH OF NERO, HE CHANGED HIS INTENTIONS; AS ALSO, CONCERNING SIMON OF GERASA

"(580) but having the advantage of situation, and having withal erected four very large towers aforehand, that their darts might come from higher places, (581) one at the northeast corner of the court, one above the Xystus, the third at another corner over against the lower city, (582) and the last was erected above the top of the Pastophoria, where one of the priests stood of course, and gave a signal beforehand, with a trumpet, at the "Beginning" of every seventh day, in the "Evening twilight, as also at the "Evening" when the "Day was finished, as giving notice to the people when they were to "Leave off work, and when they were to go to "Work again. (583) These men also set their engines to cast darts and stones withal, upon those towers, with their archers and slingers.

In the above Josephus is saying that the trumpet was blown at evening which is the beginning of every seventh day and at the evening at the end of every seventh day for the people to go back to work again. Remember Josephus is writing this during the time of the destruction of the Temple when the priesthood was still active and the Temple still standing which conclusively proves the Jews at this time understood the day begins and ends at evening and the day consisted of 24 hours. I know the sunrise proponents will not like this because it does not leave them any wiggle room at all.

Even The Dead Sea Scrolls proves the day begins at "Sunset"
To prove day ends at evening and the weeks were originally connected to the moon we read fragments of lunar days 4 through 25 which were uncovered at Qumran describing the moon's appearance and movements in relation to the sun and the ancient weeks, it also reveals how they under stood when a day begins. Wise, Abegg and Cooke, in their book The Dead Sea Scrolls, A New Translation, translate the fragment for lunar day 8 as follows "

4Q317
"On the eighth of the month [chodesh], the moon rules all the day in the midst of the sky...and when the sun sets, its light ceases to be obscured, and thus the moon begins to be revealed on the FIRST DAY OF THE WEEk" (pp. 301-303).

This not only Proves that the 8th of the month was always the 7th day of the week but this is conclusive evidence from the Dead Sea Scrolls that the "9th" day of each month is the first day of the week and begins at "Sun set". This is an absolute when using deductive reasoning.
The scroll teaches it is the 8th day before sunset and when the sun sets it begins the 9th at sunset. This proves they understood the day passes from the 8th day to the 9th day at sunset, NOT sunrise. Remember all this is in harmony with the scriptures I gave above.

We also have eyewitness from Philo the Jew who actually lived at the same time our Saviour did. In his writings Philo spoke very highly of a group of Orthodox Jews, referring to them as the disciples of Moses and how they had forsaken all, and devoted their whole lives following the law of Moses and even stated that they could not be deceived.

ON THE CONTEMPLATIVE LIFE Chapter V11-(63) … through Chapter V111 (65) page 704. We read,

"But they are despised by the disciples of Moses, who in the abundance of their wisdom have learnt from their earliest infancy to love truth, and also continue to the end of their lives impossible to be deceived.

VIII. (64) But since the entertainments of the greatest celebrity are full of such trifling and folly, bearing conviction in themselves, if any one should think fit not to regard vague opinion and the character which has been commonly handed down concerning them as feasts which have gone off with the most eminent success, I will oppose to them the entertainments of those persons who have devoted their whole life and themselves to the knowledge and contemplation of the affairs of nature in accordance with the most sacred admonitions and precepts of the prophet Moses.

(65) In the first place, these men assemble at the "end " of seven weeks, venerating not only the simple week of seven days, but also its multiplied power, for they know it to be pure and always virgin; and it is a prelude and a kind of forefeast of the greatest feast, which is assigned to the number fifty, the most holy and natural of numbers, being compounded of the power of the right-angled triangle, which is the principle of the origination and condition of the whole
.
(66) Therefore when they come together clothed in white garments, and joyful with the most exceeding gravity..(81) And when each individual has finished his psalm, then the young men bring in the table which was mentioned a little while ago, on which was placed that most holy food, the leavened bread, with a seasoning of salt, with which hyssop is mingled, out of reverence for the sacred table, which lies thus in the holy outer temple; for on this table are placed loaves and salt without seasoning, and the bread is unleavened, and the salt unmixed with anything else, (82) for it was becoming that the simplest and purest things should be allotted to the most excellent portion of the priests, as a reward for their ministrations, and that the others should admire similar things, but should abstain from the loaves, in order that those who are the more excellent person may have the precedence.
XI. (83) And after the feast they celebrate the sacred festival during the whole night; and this nocturnal festival is celebrated in the following manner:


Notice this sacred festival begins at the "end of seven weeks which was at night/evening when the day ends which conclusive proves the Jews of our Savior's day understood the day ends at evening and another 24-hour space of time begins. I could give many more Scriptures and Historical records that conclusively prove the 24hr day CAN NOT begin at sunrise but this should be enough for the honest hearted and that is who this is for.

To this day I have not had anyone produce any conclusive Historical evidence of the day beginning at sunrise.


"Exhibit F.

The sunrise doctrine is a new doctrine and is not sound because it is not found is Scripture or History, so I will show how they got off and are not thinking this thing through.
First of all the sunrise theory is based on an assumption that on day one when He said "Let there be light", the light that appeared was the beginning of day one and the darkness that was upon the earth was "Not" part of the first 24-hour day. Are they forgetting something????? YES!

When light appeared on one side of the earth whether on day one, day four, or day seven and began to move around the earth, would not there still be darkness on the other side of the earth on day one, four, or seven???? i.e. when He began resting on the seventh day, what side of the earth was He speaking from???? Remember on day 7, it was dark on one side and light on the other and one side would have night then day and the other side would have day then night on day 7.

When the Father established the Night and Day factor of days on earth, He set it up to have approximately 12 hrs of darkness and 12 hrs of daylight. Each occurring simultaneously on opposite sides of the earth.
The question is, which one is the "beginning" of the 24-hr day? YHWH could have chosen either side of the earth He wanted as the "beginning" of the 24-hr day, right?

My position is that the overwhelming majority of Scriptures indicates a "darkness" or evening beginning rather than a daylight beginning.
Such strong indication is found in the use of language in Scriptures that pinpoint "evening" as a point of reference to the beginning and/or ending of a day, NEVER is sunrise pinpointed as beginning or ending of a day.

If you had scriptural language that said things like, they shall be unclean until sunrise instead of evening, keep the 10th/Day of Atonement from the ninth day at sunrise and from sunrise to sunrise shall you keep my Sabbaths instead of from evening to evening shall you keep my Sabbaths, and at sunrise he shall be clean instead of at evening he shall be clean, unleavened bread is on the 15th and shall be observed from the 14th day at sunrise until the 21st day at sunrise instead of evening, the gates of Jerusalem began to grow "Light" before the Sabbath instead of "Dark" before the Sabbath, the list goes on and on but I think you get the point.


The earth is the same age on both sides of it and time began on both sides of the earth at the same time. Someone might say that is not the way it happened so I will move on to day four when He appointed two great lights and placed them in the firmament to not only give light on the earth and to divide the light from the darkness but to be for days and years and signs and seasons/appointments, would not one side of the earth be light/day on day four and the other side of the earth be darkness/night on day four at the exact same time???? i.e. at the beginning of day four on one side of the earth it is light and the beginning of day four on the other side of the earth it is night, so which side of the earth do you recon He reckoned the 24-hour day from, evening then morning, or morning then evening???? The same is true with day one.

If someone was standing on the dark side of the earth on day four, they would have night first then day and if someone was standing on the light side of the earth on day four, they would have day first then night. i.e. one side of the earth has it's fourth day of night/evening BEFORE it has it's fourth day of light/morning and the other side of the earth has it's fourth day of light/morning before it has it's fourth day of night/darkness unless you count the darkness that was here before he said let there be light. But some will say you cannot count that darkness but I will show evidence from Scripture where Moses could have counted it as part of day one.

It is day four on both sides of the earth because the earth is the same age on both sides and yet it is light on one side and dark on the other

Is there any evidence as to which side of the earth the creation is taken place from or from what perspective did the writer of Genesis view this?

I believe there is evidence that YHWH was speaking from a westward perspective of the earth when he said let there be light and if the light came from an eastward direction headed west around to where He was speaking from and the sun sets in the west 12 hours later, then the west began receiving its light on the first day, after 12 hours of darkness.

There is evidence to support that YHWH spoke from a westward perspective and the creation took place from a westward perspective because it teaches in Genesis 2:8 that the man was created westward of the Garden of Eden and he was carried eastward and placed in it.

" And the YHWH God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. "


Notice that the Garden was planted eastward of where YHWH was speaking from and He placed the man there. This seems to indicate that the man and YHWH was westward of the Garden of Eden and if the sun originally appeared in the East at creation when he said let there be light, then the west would have had 12 hours of darkness before they received any light.

This is only one possibility and shows there are other ways of looking at Gen-1 and when looked at in this way it lines up with Ex-16, The Spices, A third day resurrection, last Supper and MANY more Scriptures, not to mention the Historical evidence and The Dead Sea Scrolls that shows how it was done in our Saviour's day.

The Prophet Moses, in Exodus 20:11 when he says "For in six days YHWH made "heaven" and earth, "The sea", and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day:

Notice "Heaven" is included in the six days therefore the darkness/night that came before the light/day could be counted/included as part of the first day of the six days.

When the Spirit moved on the face of the water, it was "AFTER" heaven and earth was created in darkness, therefore heaven could have been counted in the six days that Moses spoke of, therefore the darkness that was on the face of the deep was counted in the six day time period and this would proves the 24-hour day begins at evening/darkness. I don't believe this is what happened, just throwing it out there for a possibility.

The following conclusively proves that in each 24 hr day, the EVENING came BEFORE the sunrise/morning.

1In the beginning YHWH created the heaven and the earth. 2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of YHWH moved upon the face of the waters.

Notice that when heaven and earth was created it became three things, it became without form and void with darkness upon the face of the deep.

3And YHWH said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4And YHWH saw the light, that it was good: and YHWH divided the light from the darkness.


Notice the darkness that the light is divided from is the darkness that was here before the light, not some future darkness as some suggest.

5And YHWH called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. (24hr period)

Notice that the darkness that he called night is the "Same" darkness that was here "Before" the light that he called day and "That" darkness was called "Night. Therefore it became night BEFORE it became light, in the day that YHWH created the heavens and earth and the process is repeated up unto this day in which we live. And when Moses is giving the account of creation and looking back and says it became evening and it became morning day one, he is referring to the evening darkness that came before the light came, not some darkness that came after the light.
In order to get a sunrise to sunrise day, you must "Ignore" the darkness that he called night and refuse to believe that it was here before the light because it is vital to the sunrise theory. They have to deny the darkness that was here before He said let there be light and say it was not part of the first day. But they are so many Scriptures that disprove the sunrise theory, as all the above Scriptures prove.


"EXHIBIT G.


By the word of His mouth the world was framed by His Word the heavens and earth etc. everything took place when He started speaking and he started speaking at night and therefore the night that He said let there be light as part of the six workdays.


In order for the sunrise theory to work, the seven days of work then rest in creation MUST begin at sunrise, "NOT" at night, and end at sunrise seven days later, and the darkness that He called "Night" that was upon the face of the deep, before He said let there be light, would not be counted in the six days of work, BUT does this square with Scripture?

No it does not BECAUSE Scripture teaches that the work "BEGAN" at "Night", after the heavens and earth were created, when the Spirit of YHWH "MOVED"? upon the face of the waters while it was still dark/night, and YHWH said "Let" there be" light and there was light which He divided from the darkness. The word "Let" is the same creative word when He said "Let" the waters bring forth, "Let" the heavens, "Let" the this "Let" the that etc. Yes YHWH began working at dark/night/evening and ended His work 6 days later at evening NOT at light/day/morning and ended His work 6 days later at morning/day/light. This is an absolute, i.e. if the 6 day creative process began at dark, it would end at dark 6 days later, and we know that YHWH began moving upon the face of the water while it was dark and said let there be light, while it was dark and therefore the work began at dark and would have ended six days later at dark.

If it began at light it would end at light 6 days later, i.e. if there was light upon the face of the deep and He began moving upon the face of the water in the light and said let there be darkness, He would have been speaking or working in the light and the six days would have ended in the light six days later but we know that was not the case.


The light appeared "AFTER" He moved or advanced upon the face of the water and SAID "Let there be light". He began "Working in the darkness, that He called night, when he created the light and therefore He ended His 6 days of work in the darkness and the darkness is counted in the six days that was spoken of by the Prophet Moses when he said, "For in six days YHWH "Made" heaven" and "Earth. "The sea", and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day" in Exodus 20:11.


The Hebrew word "Made" here can mean "Advanced upon" but the question is, "WHEN" did YHWH began advancing upon heaven and earth? Was it at sunrise, 12 noon, or dark/night??? In darkness.

This not only disproves the sunrise theory but also the 12 noon theory and the 12hr day only theory BECAUSE scripture teaches that YHWH began working at "Night" and caused the light to shine OUT of darkness, therefore the night was not only included in the 6 days but was the beginning of the 6 days spoken of by Moses, the man of YHWH.

In closing I would like to say that anyone who keeps the day from sunrise to sunrise instead of evening to evening is just as guilty of breaking the weekly Sabbath as the people who keeps Saturday or Sunday. The above conclusively proves the day "CAN NOT" begin at sunrise. For more Info you can call (404) 483-8542 or go to www.lunarsabbath.info or you can write to Brother Arnold at 3466 Hightower Trail Conyers, GA 30012. Upon request I will send my notes on this subject and others that I have collected which is crammed full of proof that the day CAN NOT begin at sunrise and that it is a new doctrine of men.
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

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Postby BrotherArnold » 19 Feb 2008, 05:33

Perhaps the above is too long for anyone to read but please consider the following.

In Exodus 16 chapter the Scripture says they got quail in the evening and in the morning bread to the full, was this evening and morning In the same 24-hour day? We know that the 15th was the Sabbath and that at evening of the 15th day they were given quail to gather and in the morning manna to gather. We know that they gathered manna for six days beginning on the morning of the first day of the week/16th, but was the evening that came before the morning, when they gathered Quails, also the first-day of the week/16th? I.e. evening then morning as in Genesis one? Or should we believe that the manna was gathered on the first-day of the week and the quail on the seventh day of the week/Sabbath and the evening and morning were in two different days?

If the evening and the morning are in two different days here in Exodus 16 chapter, then why not when he said the evening and the morning were the first-day, two different days? i.e. if evening and morning does not make up a single 24-hour day, then evening is part of one day and morning part of another day and he could not have said the evening AND the morning was day one.

Remember Moses wrote Genesis and said the evening and morning and now Moses is writing again saying, quail in the evening and manna in the morning. I believe that Moses understood that a 24-hour day ended at evening and by default another one began.


Brother Arnold
Last edited by BrotherArnold on 19 Feb 2008, 05:41, edited 1 time in total.
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



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Postby JMSchattke » 19 Feb 2008, 05:33

YHWHsavesdotcom wrote:It seems to me that the only way for scripture to be consistent in understanding the 'dividing of time' (which I elaborate on in the 'calendar' section of this forum and in my website), is to understand that the day of man begins with darkness and YHWH brings us out of the darkness by shining his light upon us. When this spiritual application is followed, the temporal, created order understanding can be properly understood as well.

Conversely, if this hermenuetical principle is not applied, one cannot help but stumble in darkness. It's better to keep silent so as to be presumed wise, than to flaunt your folly as a teacher of fools and suffer for it.

The scripture, as I see it, can be consistent if "day" means daytime. Then a later tradition of a "day" beginning after a previous daytime was over came into being. This explains why the passage on Atonement...
Lev 23:27 "On the tenth day of this seventh month is the Day of Atonement. It shall be a set-apart gathering for you. And you shall afflict your beings, and shall bring an offering made by fire to יהוה.
Lev 23:28 "And you do no work on that same day, for it is the Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before יהוה your Elohim.
Lev 23:29 "For any being who is not afflicted on that same day, he shall be cut off from his people.
Lev 23:30 "And any being who does any work on that same day, that being I shall destroy from the midst of his people.
Lev 23:31 "You do no work - a law forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
Lev 23:32 'It is a Sabbath of rest to you, and you shall afflict your beings. On the ninth day of the month at evening, from evening to evening, you observe your Sabbath."
...is ended that way: because he "day" would otherwise mean just from dawn on the 10th to dusk on the 10th.
Wandering Kernel of Happiness

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Postby BrotherArnold » 19 Feb 2008, 06:06

Shalom Brother Jay,

It is true that a scriptural day is from sunrise to sunset but there is a broader definition of a day, from sunset to sunset, and this Is proven by many Scripture such as, at certain times of the month a woman is unclean for SEVEN DAYS and we are not to lay with her during her uncleanness and if the day is to be understood by the narrow definition only, that would mean that you could sleep with her at night but not during the day light periods.

Also A man that has been cleansed of leprosy is to stay out of the camp for seven days and at the end of seven days AT EVENING, he can come into the camp again, the day does not end until evening. It does not end again at sunrise. All the Scriptures can be understood and harmonized when we accept that there is TWO definitions of a day and all we have to do is look the definition up in any concordance. I believe Genesis one proves the two definitions, one when He says the light/morning he called day/12 hour day, and the other when He says the evening AND the morning were the first-day/24-hour day. I believe the evening and the morning belonged to the first-day, not the evening belonging in one day and the morning in another.

Brother Arnold
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Postby Watchman555 » 19 Feb 2008, 11:53

YHWHsavesdotcom wrote:It seems to me that the only way for scripture to be consistent in understanding the 'dividing of time' (which I elaborate on in the 'calendar' section of this forum and in my website), is to understand that the day of man begins with darkness and YHWH brings us out of the darkness by shining his light upon us. When this spiritual application is followed, the temporal, created order understanding can be properly understood as well.

Conversely, if this hermenuetical principle is not applied, one cannot help but stumble in darkness. It's better to keep silent so as to be presumed wise, than to flaunt your folly as a teacher of fools and suffer for it.

YHWH blesses those who diligently seek his face

Obed YHWH


Shalom ObedYHWH,

I have a few thoughts concerning what you said here. You said, "It seems to me that the only way for scripture to be consistent in understanding the 'dividing of time'". If we look at the month, according to my understanding and I am in agreement with what Enoch wrote, that the month begins at the time that light is received into it. In other words, it is the day in which the light portion starts to increase over the dark (whether visible to the human eye or not). Also, according to Enoch, the year begins at the tekufah - not at the time the day and night portions are equal - but at on the day that the light portion is increased over the dark portion. Now to me, this is two examples of the dividing of time. If we follow these two examples, it would stand to reason that the day begins when the light portion increases over the dark. Such as with the light of the crescent coming over the horizon of the moon to start the month, it could be likened to the day, when the crescent of light first creeps over the eastern horizon beginning the first hour of the day.

You also said, " is to understand that the day of man begins with darkness and YHWH brings us out of the darkness by shining his light upon us". I agree with you 100% in our walk with Elohim, we indeed began in darkness and the Light advances upon our lives and drives out the darkness. Which I believe is referred to as being a new creation. This new creation of ourselves only began when the first glimpse of light was shed on our darkened hearts.


2 Kepha 1:19:
And we have the prophetic word made more certain, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. A new creation?

I would also like to point out, in the beginning when Adam and Hawwah were created, everything was tov (good). There was no darkness in them, being created in the likeness of Yahuah, and the sin/darkness had not entered them until sometime later. So from a spiritual application standpoint, when Adam and Hawwah were created they were light at first until the darkness crept in on them.

I hope you don't consider this folly. We are just in the process of studying to be fully convinced when the day starts.

Thanks and shalom,

~Greg







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Lovely points

Postby kathybyers2000 » 19 Feb 2008, 12:34

Thank you for sharing those harmonizing points Watchman.

shalom,

Kathy

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Postby BrotherArnold » 19 Feb 2008, 14:39

I realize that History should not trump scripture but complements it. We have Historical Records of the sacred Name, lunar Sabbaths, etc, But No Historical Record of a 24 hour day beginning at sunrise.

Josephus writes in

Josephus writes in

WARS OF THE JEWS book 4 CHAPTER 9 (582)


"(580) but having the advantage of situation, and having withal erected four very large towers aforehand, that their darts might come from higher places, (581) one at the northeast corner of the court, one above the Xystus, the third at another corner over against the lower city, (582) and the last was erected above the top of the Pastophoria, where one of the priests stood of course, and gave a signal beforehand, with a trumpet, at the "Beginning" of every seventh day, in the "Evening twilight, as also at the "evening when the "Day was finished, as giving notice to the people when they were to "Leave off work, and when they were to go to "Work again. (583) These men also set their engines to cast darts and stones withal, upon those towers, with their archers and slingers.

Josephus is saying that the trumpet was blown at evening which is the beginning of every seventh day and at the evening at the end of every seventh day for the people to go back to work again. Remember Josephus is writing this during the time of the destruction of the Temple when the priesthood was still active and the Temple still standing which conclusively proves the Jews at this time understood the day begins and ends at evening and the day consisted of 24 hours.

Even The Dead Sea Scrolls proves the day begins at "Sunset"
To prove day ends at evening and the weeks were originally connected to the moon we read fragments of lunar days 4 through 25 which were uncovered at Qumran describing the moon's appearance and movements in relation to the sun and the ancient weeks, it also reveals how they under stood when a day begins. Wise, Abegg and Cooke, in their book The Dead Sea Scrolls, A New Translation, translate the fragment for lunar day 8 as follows "

4Q317
"On the eighth of the month [chodesh], the moon rules all the day in the midst of the sky...and when the sun sets, its light ceases to be obscured, and thus the moon begins to be revealed on the FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK" (pp. 301-303).

This not only Proves that the 8th of the month was always the 7th day of the week but this is conclusive evidence from the Dead Sea Scrolls that the "9th" day of each month is the first day of the week and begins at "Sun set". This is an absolute when using deductive reasoning.
The scroll teaches it is the 8th day before sunset and when the sun sets it begins the 9th at sunset. This proves they understood the day passes from the 8th day to the 9th day at sunset, NOT sunrise.
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



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Interesting to note

Postby kathybyers2000 » 19 Feb 2008, 16:07

Thanks for sharing bro Arnold.

shalom,

Kathy


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