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When Does the Day Begin?

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When Does the Day Begin?

Postby Watchman555 » 23 Oct 2007, 11:29

Shalom Everyone~

I would like to start and in depth discussion on when the day begins. I would like to do this from a purely Scriptural stand point. Will consider other Scripturally based books; but I think we should keep the main focus on the "canonized" Scripture.

First of all I'd like to take the Genesis account and it alone and examine it. Can we determine from the Genesis account when the day begins? We know there are a few thoughts on this; such as morning, evening, high noon. So lets focus on the Genesis account.

All Scriptures taken from ISR version.

Gen. all chapter 1-2:4:
In the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth. 2 And the earth came to be a formless and empty, and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of Elohim was moving on the face of the waters. 3 And Elohim said, "Let light come to be, and light came to be. 4 And Elohim saw the light, that it was good. And Elohim separated the light from the darkness. 5 And Elohim called the light "day" and the darkness He called "night.' And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, the first day. 6 And Elohim said, "Let an expanse come to be in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters. 7 And Elohim made the expanse, and separated the waters which were under the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse. And it came to be so. 8 And Elohim called the expanse "heavens.' And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, the second day. 9 And Elohim said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear. And it came to be so. 10 And Elohim called the dry land 'earth,' and the collection of the waters He called 'seas.' And Elohim saw that it was good. 11 And Elohim said, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the plant that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth. And it came to be so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, the plant that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And Elohim saw that it was good. 13 And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, the third day. 14 And Elohim said, "Let lights come to be in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and appointed times, and for days and years, 15 and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth. And it came to be so. 16 And Elohim made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night, and the stars. 17 And Elohim set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And Elohim saw that it was good. 19 And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, the fourth day. 20 And Elohim said, "Let the waters teem with shoals of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth on the face of the expanse of the heavens. 21 And Elohim created great sea creatures and every living creature that moves, with which the waters teemed, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And Elohim saw that it was good. 22 And Elohim blessed them, saying, "Bear fruit and increase, and fill the waters in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth. 23 And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, the fifth day. 24 And Elohim said, "Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: livestock and creeping creatures and beasts of the earth, according to its kind. And it came to be so. 25 And Elohim made the beast of the earth according to its kind, livestock according to its kind, and all that creep on the earth according to its kind. And Elohim saw that it was good. 26 And Elohim said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the livestock, and over all the earth and over all the creeping creatures that creep on the earth. 27 And Elohim created the man in His image, in the image of Elohim He created him " male and female He created them. 28 And Elohim blessed them, and Elohim said to them, "Bear fruit and increase, and fill the earth and subdue it, and rule over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over all creatures moving on the earth. 29 And Elohim said, "See, I have given you every plant that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed, to you it is for food. 30 "And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the heavens, and to every creeping creature on the earth, in which there is life, every green plant is for food. And it came to be so. 31 And Elohim saw all that He had made, and see, it was very good. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, the sixth day. 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their array. 2 And on the seventh day Elohim completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made. 3 And Elohim blessed the seventh day and set it apart, because on it He rested from all His work which Elohim in creating had made. 4 These are the births of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that Yahuah Elohim made earth and heavens.


I think there are two basic understandings of when the day begins from these verses. If we believe the day begins at sunrise we would have to say "and then came evening and then came morning" in other words Yahuah did His work that day then came evening - which came after the work period - and then came morning - which came after the night or sleep period. The other being the day begins in the evening at the going down of the sun we would say these Scriptures mean the day consists of an evening and a morning. In other words Yahuah spoke of what He did in that day and then told us what a day consists of, an evening and a morning. Yet in day one through six we find this phrase: "And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, the ________ day". Yet on the seventh day we do not find this phrase. Any thoughts?

~Greg

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Yes, it is interesting.

Postby kathybyers2000 » 23 Oct 2007, 18:31

I have studied this topic in depth as well and I still ponder and meditate on the lack of mentioning evening and morning in the seventh day. I would love to see if anybody has been blessed with an understanding.

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Postby Watchman555 » 23 Oct 2007, 23:39

Shalom Kathy,

I had a few thoughts concerning this.

After six days of saying this Yahuah figured we must have gotten it by now (and the evening and the morning were the pattern for establishing what a day consist of).

Or He forgot to mention it on the 7th day for He was basking in His rest.

The other thought is if the day begins in the morning or directly after morning; lets say sunrise the first six days He told us what He did and then came evening and then came morning; but on the 7th day He did not say that for He rested all day.

In other words, He didn't rest and then came evening and then came morning, the seventh day. He rested the whole day.

~Greg

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Postby chuckbaldwin » 24 Oct 2007, 02:51

My thinking is that the Creation "days" in Gen.1 were from dawn to dawn, but the order was changed later, at the Exodus. Since we're focusing on Gen.1 right now, i'll explain the "later" later. :mrgreen:
Chuck Baldwin
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Postby BrotherArnold » 24 Oct 2007, 14:03

Shalom All,

How can you conclusively prove which side of the earth time was reckoned from?

If He was speaking from a Westward perspective or the prophet Moses was writing from a westward perspective and the light came around to the opposite side of the earth, you would have evening and then mourning on one side of the earth and mourning then evening on the other side, same as you do today.

When He said let there be light, there was lights all around the earth because of all the stars and therefore time began on both sides of the earth.

I personally believe he was speaking from a westward perspective because it says that he planted a garden eastward and put the man that he had made in it. I.e. the man was created in the West and carried east toward the sunrise and therefore you had 12 hours of light in the East first and in the West you had 12 hours of evening/darkness before you receive the 12 hours of light and there was evening/darkness and there was mourning/day the first day. And I believe that was where He was creating from.

See my notes at http://lunarsabbath.info/_wsn/page17.html on this subject which conclusively prove that a 24-hour day can not scripturally begin at sunrise.


Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...

Brother Arnold
See www.lunarsabbath.info

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Postby eriqbenel » 03 Nov 2007, 19:14

Shalom Brother Greg,

I don't want to change the subject here, but I wanted to ask you something Greg.

I read your post on the EliYah forum and I was moved by it. It was a fabulous post. I also prompted me to address the issue, but I have been "mysteriously" banned from that forum! I ask you to read my comments below and consider posting it for me:

------------------------------

Shalom EliYah and all,

I wish to point out that there are several occassions where Brother EliYah has claimed to only be interested in what is truth. I believe he is, but so are most of the rest of us. This is also why many people join this forum, because there is an opportunity to consider many points of view. Even Sha'ul said:

...there also must be heresies among you that they which are approved might be revealed..." 1st Corinthians 11:19

There are brothers who have participated with this forum who have been well received, respected and approved with their understanding of Scripture on other matters, such as Matthew Janzen, ... Should they be banned because they also believe in the Lunar Sabbath reckoning? Should those whom they have helped in other ways now disregard what they have received from these brothers?

In EliYah's defense, I think that the "private forum" that discussed this issue was a chaotic mess in many ways. There was bickering and contention, even hostility by BOTH sides, and EliYah "tolerated" it all for a long time. I don't blame him if he is reluctant to allow this type of discourse to "spill over" into the main forum.

Nevertheless, there are forum rules that prohibit behavior such as was displayed in that "private" context, and could easily be enforced on the main forum should such a violation take place here. But with all due respect, to "throw out the baby with the bathwater" is sort of an over reaction. Not to mention a stumbling block to truthseekers (whatever it may be) who use this forum as a tool for discovery.

In conclusion I will say this: If any have learned, gained and/or grown as a result of the discussions on various doctrines available to them on this forum, I'm glad of it. I am also glad that you have not decided to ban those discussions or topics or users, because someone may not have had the opportunity to learn or grow had it been banned.

Those of us who keep a Lunar Sabbath reckoning, absolutely, 100%, believe ourselves to be Torah-keeping, Messianic belivers, just like those who do not. Draw the line at pagans, or heretics, or troublemakers if you must, but why "cut off" fellow believers, the brethren?

It is, in my opinion, a mistake to ban Torah-keeping, Messianic believers from open, honest discussion (in line with the courtesy rules of course) on this forum, because they do not agree with you Brother. In other words, a person must not only be a Torah-Keeper, Messianic believer, but they must also agree with "your" interpretation of Torah.

Jut like the subjects of the New Moon, the law, and feast days, the Sabbath shouldn't present a fear of open discussion. Truth has no fear of open discussion.

May YHWH bless your mind and heart,

Eriq

------------------------------

Meanwhile, and ever after, we are continuing with our plan to invite everyone here to this forum.
Shalom in the name of YHWH,

Eriq

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Postby BrotherArnold » 04 Nov 2007, 14:22

Shalom All,

another thing to consider is

If we believe the day begins at sunrise and say "and then came evening and then came morning" in other words YHWH did His work that day then came evening - which came after the work period - and then came morning - which came after the night or sleep period, we have major problems because He began working in the DARK according to scripture.

The scripture teaches that His WORK began BEFORE He said let there be light i.e. the creative speaking and WORK came BEFORE light when He MOVED upon the face of the DARK watters and said let ther be light, He BEGAN WORKING then, He did NOT BEGIN working AFTER the light. There are scriptures that says that the light and darkness are both the same to Him, i.e. He can see in the dark. And there are scripture that say's He dwells in the thick darknes. I know He also dwells in Light also and the two can be harmonized and we are required to believe BOTH.

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

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Postby HeHoldsMyHand » 10 Nov 2007, 15:05

Hi,

Chuck, I noticed you had started a topic on Eliyah's page, under the His Timing forum. I've posted a reply there, which you may or may not find interesting. I don't think I can cut and paste it, so I can't put it on here. (Unless I type the whole thing out again, but its easier to redirect you. Yeah, I'm lazy!)

Shabbat Shalom!
Lindsey

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Postby BrotherArnold » 11 Nov 2007, 02:15

Shalom He Holds My Hand,

I am going to copy and paste from the other form to this one, one thing at a time for discussion. I am not allowed on the other form.

You wrote,


"EXODUS 12:18 - On the fourteenth day of the month at evening, you shall eat unleavened bread, until the twenty first day of the month at evening.

RESPONSE; from the beginning of the 14th day of the month until the 21st of the month at evening is "8"? days instead of seven days which is not in harmony with Scripture and verse 19 says, SEVEN-days their shall be no leaven breads found in your houses. This is why we understand the 14th day at evening is referring to the end of the 14th and the beginning of the 15th.

On top of this, verse 15 says SEVEN days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day say you put away leavened out of your houses; for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the FIRST day until the seventh day that sole shall be cut off from among his people and verse 16 says in the FIRST day there shall be and holy convocation"

From this we see that the FIRST day of unleavened bread is a holy convocation and Leviticus 23:6-7 teaches that the 15th is the first day of unleavened bread and a holy convocation.


The reason that the evening of the 14th is the beginning of the 15th, is because the evening always ends a day, both, the 24-hour day and the 12 hour day. It is the same as telling someone that Saturday Sabbath actually begins on Friday evening, or the sixth day at evening. I.e. the sixth day at evening is the beginning of the seventh day because the six-day ends then, same as the 14th day and ends at evening and the 15 begins.

Please visit this web site which conclusively proved the day cannot begin at sunrise or morning. http://lunarsabbath.info/_wsn/page17.html
Last edited by BrotherArnold on 26 Feb 2008, 01:58, edited 1 time in total.
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

chuckbaldwin
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Re: Yes, it is interesting.

Postby chuckbaldwin » 14 Nov 2007, 03:59

kathybyers2000 wrote:I have studied this topic in depth as well and I still ponder and meditate on the lack of mentioning evening and morning in the seventh day. I would love to see if anybody has been blessed with an understanding.
My thinking is that since the daily cycle had been well-established by the descriptions of days 2-6, YHWH felt it more important to focus on His blessing & sanctifying that Day, rather than repeating the limits, which there's no reason they would be any different. :mrgreen:
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 14 Nov 2007, 04:06

HeHoldsMyHand wrote:Chuck, I noticed you had started a topic on Eliyah's page, under the His Timing forum. I've posted a reply there, which you may or may not find interesting. I don't think I can cut and paste it, so I can't put it on here. (Unless I type the whole thing out again, but its easier to redirect you. Yeah, I'm lazy!)
Lindsey
Hi Lindsey,

<S>I had already read your post on the EliYah forum, and gave one repsonse, then you asked me to read Glen Myers' 2 articles, which i did years ago. I'll have to find time to read them again, but i basically disagree with most of his contentions. I terminated our dialog when he became insulting and abusive.</s>

Scratch the above; sorry Lindsey, i had you confused with someone else on another thread. I have read and replied to your post under "His Timing". :mrgreen:
Last edited by chuckbaldwin on 15 Nov 2007, 05:44, edited 1 time in total.
Chuck Baldwin

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Postby chuckbaldwin » 14 Nov 2007, 04:16

BrotherArnold wrote:If we believe the day begins at sunrise and say "and then came evening and then came morning" in other words YHWH did His work that day then came evening - which came after the work period - and then came morning - which came after the night or sleep period, we have major problems because He began working in the DARK according to scripture.

The scripture teaches that His WORK began BEFORE He said let there be light i.e. the creative speaking and WORK came BEFORE light when He MOVED upon the face of the DARK watters and said let ther be light, He BEGAN WORKING then, He did NOT BEGIN working AFTER the light.
Arnold,

There's no problem as you think you see. The darkness that YHWH began working in was the END of the previous DARKNESS, not the START of EVENING. It doesn't make any sense that He would say "Let there be light", and then have to wait 12 hours for the earth/sun to obey His command. As soon as He said that, Light appeared and the 1st Day started (which He called the Light - "yowm"). :mrgreen:
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

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Re: Yes, it is interesting.

Postby eriqbenel » 14 Nov 2007, 12:50

chuckbaldwin wrote:
kathybyers2000 wrote:I have studied this topic in depth as well and I still ponder and meditate on the lack of mentioning evening and morning in the seventh day. I would love to see if anybody has been blessed with an understanding.


My thinking is that since the daily cycle had been well-established by the descriptions of days 2-6, YHWH felt it more important to focus on His blessing & sanctifying that Day, rather than repeating the limits, which there's no reason they would be any different. :mrgreen:


---------------------------------------

My goodness, the dead has arisen! Where you been Brother!?

Anyway, she said "anybody BLESSED WITH understanding", not BARRED FROM understanding. :mrgreen: :D

Just kidding, Chuck is probably right, except the pattern was established in days ONE thru SIX, not just 2-6.
Shalom in the name of YHWH,



Eriq

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Postby BrotherArnold » 16 Nov 2007, 01:08

Ever wonder why It says "and YHWH saw that it was good" at the end of every day except day 2? And said it twice on day 3. I have a suggestion to it but am getting tired.

Good night John Boy

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

See www.lunarsabbath.info

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Postby Torahwoman » 16 Nov 2007, 02:27

Shalom, and laila tov, from tw as well.... see you TOMORROW ...? :D ;)


i would like to share that, not only have i begun to observe the lunar reckoning, but am also leaning toward the sunrise-to-sunrise idea.


tw: Lunar Module. Some assembly required.
Ps. 139:1 "O YaHUaH You have searched me and know me."


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