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is new year by abib, or by equinox

For the open discussion of all calendar related issues.

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kickme
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is new year by abib, or by equinox

Postby kickme » 02 Feb 2008, 02:51


chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 02 Feb 2008, 05:39

Greetings,

My thoughts on this are simple. Gen.1:14 mentions nothing about "abib".
The luminaries (esp sun) control the crops; the crops don't control the luminaries.
If we ever get the luminaries correct, the crops will be there when needed.

The equinox determines the solar year; the next new moon is the 1st new moon OF THE YEAR, and as such determines the lunar year.
Chuck Baldwin
By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

Debbie
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Postby Debbie » 02 Feb 2008, 07:45

Shalom Chuck,
My first post :D ! And hopefully many more.
You are correct in your post of the new year timing, at least in Israel you are.
I own a home in Israel, and plan on being there by the first month of the new year and in time for Passover. Things will be warming up by that time.
Look only for the good in everything, so you absorb the quality of beauty

kickme
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Postby kickme » 02 Feb 2008, 13:05

I agree, and yet I disagree, Chuck, with the statement that Gen mentions nothing about Abib, thus the luminaries control the crops. It is possible to have equinox without having abib. Yet you are correct, it is impossible to have abib without the sun giving it's warmth to grow the crops. Or, more correctly, it is impossible for this to happen without Elohim directing things the way he sees fit :wink:
However, some discomfort comes in with this, as Gen does not mention alot of things. For instance, how much clothes did Yahweh dress Adam and Hawwah in? :P Doesn't say, thus some people dress mighty funny trying to be modest. And again, doesn't say why Cain and Abel brought offering, whether it was commanded, or they though to it themselves. Indeed, who's idea was the 'new year' concept anyway? Is it the same now as it was from the beginning?

*bangs head against the wall*

BrotherArnold
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Postby BrotherArnold » 02 Feb 2008, 13:29

chuckbaldwin wrote:Greetings,

My thoughts on this are simple. Gen.1:14 mentions nothing about "abib".
The luminaries (esp sun) control the crops; the crops don't control the luminaries.
If we ever get the luminaries correct, the crops will be there when needed.

The equinox determines the solar year; the next new moon is the 1st new moon OF THE YEAR, and as such determines the lunar year.




RESPONSE; I AGREE with brother Chuck on this one. Brother Chuck you are so right because you used the Scripture without adding to It or taking away from it. I will add that some will say that equinox Is not found in Scripture and I agree that word equinox is not found but in Exodus 12 chapter, He told Moses that this is the first month of the YEAR to you and the word year means revolution and of course Abiv is springtime that is why I believe he distinguished it thus because there is another revolution/equinox in the fall.

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...

Brother Arnold
See www.lunarsabbath.info

JMSchattke
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Postby JMSchattke » 02 Feb 2008, 15:48

http://reluctant-messenger.com/book_of_enoch.htm
32 On that day the night decreases and amounts to nine parts, and the day to nine parts, and the night 33 is equal to the day and the year is exactly as to its days three hundred and sixty-four


This isn't precisely the equinox, and the count seems superfluous.
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Postby YHWHsavesdotcom » 02 Feb 2008, 17:52

We know that YHWH's calendar is determined by the moon phases. There are 354 days in a 12 moonth (year) cycle. There are 365.25 days in a solar year cycle. What we see then is that the Lunar Year would eventually fall behind that of the Solar year, by approx. 11 days each year, so that one would be attempting to celebrate Passover, for instance, in mid winter.

We know that an additional lunar month had to be inserted every so often in order to keep that from happening and this is justified by the command to keep the festivals 'in their seasons' or Moedim (Lev 23:4). For the evidence that an 'intercalary year' (the addition of a lunar month to reconcile the lunar year calendar with the growing season (solar year), please see my short study here: http://www.yhwhsaves.com/intercalary

So what we find is that if we wait too many years before inserting this lunar month, we would actually be celebrating the Feast of First Fruit (Passover) BEFORE the first harvest. But there is a command that makes that impossible eh? The command to keep the feast in its proper season...which is AFTER the first harvest. We are told that this 'moonth' is called 'abib' or 'green ears' because it is the first harvest month of the year. Exactly what is meant by 'green ears' seems to be a point of contention among various proponents. And certainly the green ears must be not only 'found' but must also be far enough into the growing season so that it can be harvested BEFORE the festival itself (as the High priest, ante-typical of Messaih, must waive the first shucks before the Temple altar (ante-typical of his resurrection). So this obvious command is really not where we should focus since everyone agrees that this is correct.

There are, among those who use a 'lunar calendar', a variety of methods used that often are not in line with all the commands YHWH gives that have a direct bearing on the EXACT time or year that this intercalary month should be inserted. They are overlooked because they seem to have nothing to do with the BEGINNING of the year but in fact, if the beginning is not properly ascertained, these commands are broken...at least one time in a three year cycle. But once is enough eh :shock:

Celebrate the Feast of Harvest with the firstfruits of the crops you sow in your field. Celebrate the Feast of Ingathering at the end of the year, when you have gathered in your crops from the field. Ex. 23:16

Celebrate the Feast of Weeks with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the turn of the year. Ex. 34:22

If in fact the first chodesh cycle beginning the year is prolonged and does not come in Spring proper, that is 'after the equinox' (though not called 'equinox', was understood as the 'turn' of the year in Hebrew...and known by man even before farming began), then at least one out of every three years, the FALL festival (Succot) will be celebrated BEFORE the 'turn of the year' in the fall...WHILE THE BULK OF THE HARVEST IS STILL IN THE FIELD (sometimes before harvest even begins)!!

So, if we wait just one too many years before inserting the 'intercalary moonth,' we can perhaps be congruent with the law regarding the Abib...yet still be breaking the laws regarding the END HARVEST...which is ante-typical of THE DAY we all await :D

If you wait too long you may miss the boat :shock:


ObedYah

JMSchattke
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Postby JMSchattke » 02 Feb 2008, 19:12

Technically, it s only tradition which puts the wave sheaf offering as occurring during the feast of unleavened bread.
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eriqbenel
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Postby eriqbenel » 02 Feb 2008, 22:13

I agree, and yet I disagree, Chuck, with the statement that Gen mentions nothing about Abib, thus the luminaries control the crops. It is possible to have equinox without having abib.


This is totally false. "Abib" is the beginning of a "month". It is totally separate from the equinox. You need to do some study on this.


Yet you are correct, it is impossible to have abib without the sun giving it's warmth to grow the crops. Or, more correctly, it is impossible for this to happen without Elohim directing things the way he sees fit


This issue is one that is rooted in scientific "FACT" coupled with Scriptural instruction. You comments are not compatible with either. You really need to study this issue and get your facts before attempting to debate it.

However, some discomfort comes in with this, as Gen does not mention alot of things. For instance, how much clothes did Yahweh dress Adam and Hawwah in? Doesn't say, thus some people dress mighty funny trying to be modest. And again, doesn't say why Cain and Abel brought offering, whether it was commanded, or they though to it themselves. Indeed, who's idea was the 'new year' concept anyway? Is it the same now as it was from the beginning?


Again, this is a lot is philosophical nonsense that has absolutely nothing to do with "Abib" vs. "Equinox", science, or Scriptural truth. I don't mean to sound too harsh, but before you enter the game, you should understand the rules.
Shalom in the name of YHWH,

Eriq

eriqbenel
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Postby eriqbenel » 02 Feb 2008, 22:48

JM wrote:

This isn't precisely the equinox, and the count seems superfluous.



I actually understand his point here. This doesn't reflect "abib" OR "equinox".

The reason the count seems "superfluous" is because IT IS! The count is reflective of the calendrical mindset of the time period in which it was written. The "solar" based mentally had heavy influence on calendrical thought of the time.

NOTE:
It should be understood as an historical "FACT" that the book of Enoch was not written until around 200 BCE, well AFTER Enoch had lived and died. Except for traditional rumor, there is absolutely no reason to believe the real Enoch is the sole authenticator and author of the writing traditionally known as "the book of Enoch". At best, this book was most likely remolded over to reflect the religious attitudes and influence of the Yudean sects, the most dominant of which were patterned after Egyptian schools of thought.

In much the same way, the Scripture today, does the same thing. The Scriptures as they are now translated repeatedly use the word "weeks", which is NOT a true reflection of the thought of Scripture, neither in the Tanach or Messianic Scriptures.

A "week" is a word more in line with later trains of calendrical thought. The people of antiquity did not think in terms of "weeks". Their itemized reckoning of a month was rooted in the moon phases, and the Sabbath, both of which follow a typical pattern of "sevens".

Whenever a "week" is mentioned in modern thought, the idea is rooted in the mathematical, "superfluous" systems of manmade calendar. So then, when people read the Scripture and see the word "week" or "first day of the week", which is NOT what the original language says, they automatically think of Sun thru Sat.

It is completely feasible that either the solar influence of the calendar thought in the book of Enoch was tainted, or Enoch did not write these portions at all.
Shalom in the name of YHWH,



Eriq

kickme
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Postby kickme » 02 Feb 2008, 22:51

sorry, eriqbenel, I wasn't saying I understand everything, in fact, my post is intended to show how little I do know.
I suspect many people who try to show that they know so much, in fact if they were totally honest with themselves, would not fear to show how little they really do know

I'm constantly in awe of my creator, as I can quite readily see that he is so much higher than I. In fact, the more I learn, the more I realize how little I know. :shock:

eriqbenel
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Postby eriqbenel » 02 Feb 2008, 23:14

sorry, eriqbenel, I wasn't saying I understand everything, in fact, my post is intended to show how little I do know.
I suspect many people who try to show that they know so much, in fact if they were totally honest with themselves, would not fear to show how little they really do know

I'm constantly in awe of my creator, as I can quite readily see that he is so much higher than I. In fact, the more I learn, the more I realize how little I know.


ok. I may have misunderstood your post. It seemed like you were making assertions of fact.

But I would rather not know something and be silent than open my mouth and reveal how much I really don't know.

One can have knowledge and still be humble. One can know the truth and still be in "awe of the creator".
Shalom in the name of YHWH,



Eriq

kickme
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Postby kickme » 03 Feb 2008, 01:15

that last little line in the post could possibly have been a clue :wink:


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