"The fear of יהוה is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Set-apart One is understanding"

polygyny

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Luneee
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Postby Luneee » 06 Feb 2008, 13:47

kickme wrote:Guess maybe resent is not quite the proper word, yet it is. It's not you I resent, Luneee, it's the 'status quo' opinion that the only reason a man would take more than 1 wife is for sexual reasons. Nope, I don't think it's the main reason any man should get married. Sure, it's part of how the human race is wired (yeah, both male and female) but I just don't know any successful relationship built primarily on physical. To be sure, it happens, but to be a primary motivator, I just don't see it.


I am in agreement that if the other pieces of the equation are not in place, the marriage is doomed to failure.

And for the record, I have not suggested or implied that a man should take more than one wife. *\/*

And, for the record, I didn't say it's the "only" reason.

Inference can be drawn that I said it's the main thing, although I didn't directly say that.

But I guess I've tried to explain myself enough now? :oops:

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Postby Chayil_Ishshah » 06 Feb 2008, 14:02

Shalom All~

Kickme, I wonder if you shouldn't have a new name, He Who Rocks The Boat. :lol:

You know I mean that in all humor.

Seriously, today I read a message from a sister who will remain nameless for protecting her privacy. I mention this ONLY because it is relevant to this topic.

She met a man that she knew was married. This man is a believer as is she. He also told her that he believed that polygamy was Scriptural. (I don't dispute that). She studied it. She believes that polygamy is Scriptural. They communicated for about a year. Eventually, this man asked this sister's father for her hand in marriage.

His wife found out.

:shock: :shock: :shock:

Cut to the chase, the relationship is over. She is devastated. Emotionally wrecked. Why?

Because the first wife was not aware of what her husband was doing and she "forced" him to end it. She sent this sister harrassing emails (according to what she said, I didn't see them, which is another reason I'm not using names). This sister also said the man called her under the guise of calling one of his friends and warned the sister about a phone call she was going to receive and to ignore what he said. About 45 min. later she received a call from said man and was told he never loved her and was ending things and never wanted to contact her again, the first wife was on speaker phone.

Lies, secrets, hurt feelings, emotionally crushed. Why???

Perhaps some people can defend this man's actions. Personally, I'm not going to judge him or defend him. All I see is a sister that is hurting. One that was willing to submit to being a second wife.

May she be uplifted in prayer and Yahuah's will be done in her life.

~Chayil
:cry:

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Re: Lust - (Luneee ?)

Postby Luneee » 06 Feb 2008, 14:13

kathybyers2000 wrote:I would really like for you to share with me your understanding of the word lust. You encourage us to do the word study our selves but I would ask for you to just bless us with your understanding and trust that YHWH will take us in to that truth when it is time. If not, no big deal (or you might see me say - so be it) it won't make or break me. I was just curious to understand you a bit more.

Shalom,

kathy


Sorry. My understanding of the word "lust" is too graphic for this forum.

However, for the purposes of this board, I will post the common word usages, and show that it varies from "licentiousness" which I believe most married people subscribe to every day. (but do not realize it).


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lust


lust
–noun
1. intense sexual desire or appetite.
2. uncontrolled or illicit sexual desire or appetite; lecherousness.
3. a passionate or overmastering desire or craving (usually fol. by for): a lust for power.
4. ardent enthusiasm; zest; relish: an enviable lust for life.
5. Obsolete.
a. pleasure or delight.
b. desire; inclination; wish.
–verb (used without object)
6. to have intense sexual desire.
7. to have a yearning or desire; have a strong or excessive craving (often fol. by for or after).
**********************************************

Now for licentiousness

**********************************************
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/licentiousness

li·cen·tious
–adjective
1. sexually unrestrained; lascivious; libertine; lewd.
2. unrestrained by law or general morality; lawless; immoral.
3. going beyond customary or proper bounds or limits; disregarding rules.

**********************************************


And from http://www.etymonline.com

licentious
"morally unrestrained," 1535, from M.L. licentiosus "full of license, unrestrained," from L. licentia (see license).

**********************************************

Now, the definition of License

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/license

li·cense
–noun
1. formal permission from a governmental or other constituted authority to do something, as to carry on some business or profession.
2. a certificate, tag, plate, etc., giving proof of such permission; official permit: a driver's license.
3. permission to do or not to do something.
4. intentional deviation from rule, convention, or fact, as for the sake of literary or artistic effect: poetic license.
5. exceptional freedom allowed in a special situation.
6. excessive or undue freedom or liberty.
7. licentiousness.
8. the legal right to use a patent owned by another.
–verb (used with object)
9. to grant authoritative permission or license to.
[Origin: 1325–75; ME licence < MF < ML licentia authorization, L: freedom, equiv. to licent- (s. of licéns, prp. of licére to be allowed) + -ia -ia; see -ence]


******************************************

When I discovered that a license by the state to be married is something that is "unlawful" (Against Torah) then I knew to rescind and revoke any signature on the marriage license (benefit) offered to me by the state and return it to the state.

See, from reading the above definitions, I perceive that a license allows one to be morally unrestrained in marriage. For instance, when a marriage is licensed, all fruits of that marriage become subject to the state. (Children and property).

This is why Social Services and DCF have the presumed right to just barge in homes. They own the children. Not only are they fruits of the marriage, which was "licensed" by the state, the children are also "registered" as property, by the means of a bill of lading called a birth certificate (Berth certificate).

Who owns that birth certificate, and the property listed on it? This is simple. Whoever has the original. (The state).

I could go on and on, but although I enjoy the physical side of a marriage, and consider it to be a main piece of the puzzle, there is much more. Thank Yahuah my wife is 99.9% perfect. :mrgreen:

Jay Vincent.

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Postby Luneee » 06 Feb 2008, 14:31

I forgot who Kickme was, until this last post of his.

Greetings fellow boat rocker!

Jay Vincent.

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Understanding LUST

Postby eriqbenel » 06 Feb 2008, 16:12

Rather than basing our understanding on the English dictionary definitions, for the purpose of finding the most accurate understanding of doctrine, we should look at the Hebrew and Greek words. The Hebrew (Tanach) uses the word both positively and negatively, while the Greek (Messianic Scripture) uses the word only negatively, but also only in specific circumstances.

First the Hebrew (according to the Strong's Concordance, Words Study Edition, 2004):

H2530, chamad; to delight in.
A verb meaning to take pleasure in, to desire, to lust, to be passionate. This word is used to expressed a wide variety of levels, but falls short of "covetousness". The 10th commandment prohibits desiring something to the point of coveting, such as a neighbor's house, wife, or other assets.

H5315, nephesh; properly, a breathing creature, i.e., vitality, used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense.
A feminine noun meaning breath, the inner being with its thoughts and emotions. It is used 753 times in the Tanach and has a broad range of meanings.

H8307, sheriyruwth; in the sense of twisted, i.e., firm, obstinacy.
A feminine noun meaning hardness, stubbornness. This word has the basic idea of firmness or hardness, but in its 10 uses in the Tanach, it is always used in conjunction with the word, lev (3820), meaning heart, to describe disobedient Yisrael.

H8378, taavah; a longing, by implication, a delight (subjective satisfaction, objective charm).

-------------------------------------------


Now the Greek

G1938, epithumetes; a craver

G1939, epithumia; a longing (especially for what is forbidden)

G3715, orexis; excitement of mind, i.e., longing after.
Noun from orego (3713), to desire. A reaching after. Used only in Romans 1:27 speaking of unlawful lust.

G3806, pathos; properly, suffering, i.e., a passion (especially concupiscence).
In the Messianic Scriptures; passion, i.e., affliction of the mind, emotion, especially lustful compassion.

As you should be able to tell, these words can be used and/or taken in both a positive and negative sense. The point being, there is nothing wrong with "lust" in a positive context. It is in a prohibited context that lust becomes a problem.

In the context of marriage, whether one wife or multiple wives, there is NO PROHIBITION in Scripture.
Shalom in the name of YHWH,

Eriq

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Postby YHWHsavesdotcom » 06 Feb 2008, 16:29

There were many different reasons for the ancients to have more than one wife; related to the protection of the community and the carrying on of deceased relative lines (and by kings as an ante-typical shadow of YHWH marrying all of us through Yahwshua...but we see that in the case of Solomon, that was NOT GOOD!).

If in fact one does not marry for these reasons (as motivated by YHWH's sense of LOVE, not fleshly lust), than one is not bringing glory to YHWH at all...and YHWH will judge all the thoughts and motives of man, not me.

David had many wives, some of them he lived with without 'relations'.

But the real reason for this last post is to bring attention to an error that I'm sure began merely as a typo but has begun to self perpetuate: the word is spelled 'Polygamy'.

ObedYah

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Postby Luneee » 06 Feb 2008, 17:50

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/polygyny

po·lyg·y·ny
–noun
1. the practice or condition of having more than one wife at one time.
2. (among male animals) the habit or system of having two or more mates, either simultaneously or successively.
3. (among social insects) the condition of having two or more functioning queens in a colony.
4. Botany. the state or condition of having many pistils or styles.

The above is just an FYI, to show that the word used is in context of normal usage, or maybe to help avoid misunderstanding.

ObedYah, I would appreciate scriptural support for your statement: "If in fact one does not marry for these reasons (as motivated by YHWH's sense of LOVE, not fleshly lust), than one is not bringing glory to YHWH at all..."

Is this scripturally based fact, or just opinion? In other words, is there scripture that says not to marry because of fleshly lust? Alternatively, is there a scripture that says it is mandatory to marry only when so motivated by YHWH's sense of LOVE?

Thanks,

Jay Vincent.

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Postby eriqbenel » 06 Feb 2008, 20:04

But the real reason for this last post is to bring attention to an error that I'm sure began merely as a typo but has begun to self perpetuate: the word is spelled 'Polygamy'.


Not really ObedYah.

If you look it up, the word "polygyny" is rooted in "animal" mating of more than one at a time. It has evolved to include humans over time. Not because humans didn't always do it, but because the word stems from "pollinate". Pollination (transfer reproductive cells from male to female) is not really what humans do, we are "fruitful" and "multiply" :D

But as you said, one purpose of having multiple wives was to insure lineage. Having "many" children sort of simulates the result of pollination.

The word" "polygamy", is the legal term used to described a man married to more than one spouse. But even in this "marriage", the term still carries the idea of "poly", where sexual intercourse is inherent.

Either word is accurate.
Shalom in the name of YHWH,



Eriq

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Postby kickme » 07 Feb 2008, 00:17

Ok, I'll do my best to explain my understanding, y'all get to agree or disagree with me as you wish :wink: :lol:
I'm using KJV because that's the only way I can search by word number.

Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust1937 after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Mat 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired1937 to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Luk 15:16 Andhe would fain1937 have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gaveunto him.

Luk 16:21 And desiring1937 to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover, the dogs came and licked his sores.

Luk 17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire1937 to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

Luk 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire1939 I have desired1937 to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

Act 20:33 I have coveted1937 no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid., Nay, I had not known sin, but bythe law: for I had not known lust,1939 except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.1937

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet;1937 and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

1Co 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after1938 evil things, as they also lusted.1937

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth1937 against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

1Ti 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire3713 the office of a bishop, he desireth1937 a good work.

Heb 6:11 And we desire1937 that every one of you do show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

Jam 4:2 Ye lust,1937 and have not: ye kill, and desire to have,2206 and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.

1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire1937 to look into.

Rev 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it;846 and shall desire1937 to die, and death shall flee from them.

The 3 Greek words translated 'lust, desire, covet' are 1937epithumētēs, 1938epithumētēs, and 1939ep-ee-thoo-mee'-ah
as you can see, they are very similar words, and according to Strongs, the root of 1937 is this "From G1909 and G2372; to set the heart upon, that is, long for (rightfully or otherwise): - covet, desire, would fain, lust (after)."

Now, I only did a word search on 1937, as that's the word recorded as used in the 'lust after a woman' that Yahushua said would be committing adultery in the heart.
As you can see in the above verses referencing the context and use of the 1937 word, lust is not always a bad thing, only when desiring something that belongs to someone else.
Another thing I'd like to point out about Matt 5:28 is that Yahushua used the word 'gune'. This is the equivalent word to H802 ish-shaw', naw-sheem'. Now, hold on a little bit, and get the gist of this. He was saying 'woman' as in grown woman, the Hebrew culture basically assuming that once a woman is of age it is her 'duty' to get married and bear children. A young 'woman' ie, girl was called a maiden. It was not considered wrong to lust (desire greatly for a wife) a young lady who was not spoken for. Yes, even if you were already married, it was not wrong, nor was Yahushua saying it was. He was saying that if you are coveting a man's woman, ie, greatly desiring to the point of obsession, then you are committing adultery of the heart. So, he was saying you were breaking the 10th commandment. Simple as that. No new rules, just exposing the heart as Torah is intended to do.
Now, from the westernized mindset, this lust word has been twisted so badly that if a fellow notices any good looking female, there are those standing in line to accuse him of lusting, when he has done no such thing. Sure it's inappropriate to 'dress down' a woman with your eyes, allowing your eyes to run over a shapely person. But just turning your head because you notice a pretty lady is no more inappropriate than appreciating a beautiful sunset or mountainside. Well, not unless your twisted mind is really that out of control that you instantly get nasty thoughts, but if you really are that sick, I'd like to suggest you commit yourself.

OK, I've ranted long enough, my point isn't to get so far into this, just to show that lust in and of it'self is not an evil thing. Lusting after that which is right is indeed commendable. And I think Scriptures speak for themselves clearly enough that a man who finds a good woman indeed has found a good thing, and receives favor from Yahweh. And from the looks of things, Yahweh didn't seem to mind the head of household having more than 1 helpmeet. He did however, seem to realise that a house with 2 heads would not stand, thus did not allow the woman to attempt to try and have 2 in the headship position.

That's all folks.
kickme, and soon, please

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Watchman555
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Postby Watchman555 » 07 Feb 2008, 01:11

Just out of wonderment, what would be some of the reasons for having multiple wives in this season? I mean, I can understand Abraham in his season, because he is the father of many nations as well as Ya'aqov's situation. Scriptures don't seem to mention Adam had more than one wife. But as far as this end-time season - what would compel to have multiple wives?

:?:

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Postby Luneee » 07 Feb 2008, 01:43

Edited to preserve length of days...

kickme
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Postby kickme » 07 Feb 2008, 01:45

What ever compelled anyone?
From my perspective, I don't see that men have been recorded as taking additional wives as sex toys. OK, so that's how David took Bathsheba, but he was strongly rebuked for it.
So, what other reasons would the be? Indeed, why take any wife?, as it will cause some relational stress at times.
OK, so I'll answer my own question. It is not good for man to be alone. We were created to be companions. Ever notice that while man realised his need for companionship as he was created without a mate, but Hawwah was 'born' with a mate already. I suspect as much as a man needs a woman, a woman needs a man even more. Yet, as the author of one book I've read pointed out, a woman needs a man not because of lack, but because of fullness. She has a need to give, and was created this way. The man needs because part of him is in the woman, and he needs to get that back, he's not whole without it. A woman, while being whole, has the need to share, to give. When I realised this, it all makes sense, yet it's a paradox. How can one who is whole have a need that is generated by the 'need' to share? I think it's amazing.

Now, back to the question, why more than 1? Personally, (and this is strictly from my perspective) I think I'm so complex my wife needs help from another woman's perspective just to understand me, to complete me, in order that she too can be completed. Yes, there's risks, but what greater risk than not reaching one's potential because there's a hole that constantly is draining one'self? I don't expect you to understand, in fact, I hope you can't. Nonetheless, it's where I am, yet I don't resent it.
Now, I'll go crawl back in my cave, and feed on a few messy drumsticks until oil runs down my beard, and my shirt is all stained.

Why haven't you kicked me yet?

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Postby eriqbenel » 07 Feb 2008, 02:12

Now, I only did a word search on 1937, as that's the word recorded as used in the 'lust after a woman' that Yahushua said would be committing adultery in the heart.
As you can see in the above verses referencing the context and use of the 1937 word, lust is not always a bad thing, only when desiring something that belongs to someone else.
Another thing I'd like to point out about Matt 5:28 is that Yahushua used the word 'gune'. This is the equivalent word to H802 ish-shaw', naw-sheem'. Now, hold on a little bit, and get the gist of this. He was saying 'woman' as in grown woman, the Hebrew culture basically assuming that once a woman is of age it is her 'duty' to get married and bear children. A young 'woman' ie, girl was called a maiden. It was not considered wrong to lust (desire greatly for a wife) a young lady who was not spoken for. Yes, even if you were already married, it was not wrong, nor was Yahushua saying it was. He was saying that if you are coveting a man's woman, ie, greatly desiring to the point of obsession, then you are committing adultery of the heart. So, he was saying you were breaking the 10th commandment. Simple as that. No new rules, just exposing the heart as Torah is intended to do.
Now, from the westernized mindset, this lust word has been twisted so badly that if a fellow notices any good looking female, there are those standing in line to accuse him of lusting, when he has done no such thing. Sure it's inappropriate to 'dress down' a woman with your eyes, allowing your eyes to run over a shapely person. But just turning your head because you notice a pretty lady is no more inappropriate than appreciating a beautiful sunset or mountainside. Well, not unless your twisted mind is really that out of control that you instantly get nasty thoughts, but if you really are that sick, I'd like to suggest you commit yourself.

OK, I've ranted long enough, my point isn't to get so far into this, just to show that lust in and of it'self is not an evil thing. Lusting after that which is right is indeed commendable. And I think Scriptures speak for themselves clearly enough that a man who finds a good woman indeed has found a good thing, and receives favor from Yahweh. And from the looks of things, Yahweh didn't seem to mind the head of household having more than 1 helpmeet. He did however, seem to realise that a house with 2 heads would not stand, thus did not allow the woman to attempt to try and have 2 in the headship position.



Kickme is really on the right track here. Especially when he states that "bad" lust directly relates to "when desiring something that belongs to someone else".

To add to this point, when the Scripture is referring to a "woman", it is not only a woman of marrying age, but it is talking about a "wife". In other words, a "woman" that belongs to someone else! That is when your "desire" for her becomes wrong, for she is another man's wife.

There is absolutely no stipulation as to whether or not the MAN is already married. You would have to read that into the text. In other words, if a man is married, he can "desire" whoever he wants, so long as she is not the "wife" of another.
Shalom in the name of YHWH,



Eriq

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sweet harmony coming back at me

Postby kathybyers2000 » 07 Feb 2008, 02:29

Thanks for sharing y'all. It is uneasy convo, but nice to see likeminded believers understanding what i do in this. (it's a first).

HalleluYah!

Shalom,

Kathy

BTW -
Dawn (praying too :(

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Postby TrueGirlPower » 19 Feb 2008, 04:59

Shalom Y'all!

I'm very new here (just joined actually), but WOW; it is SO amazing to see fellow brothers and sisters discussing things like polygamy. I was just banned from YahSpace for posting an article as such. lol

*Throwing my hat into the ring*
Have any here read these articles? They explain in good detail what y'all are talking about here.

Objection to Polygamy, and Their Common-Sense Answers By Sam Chapman
BIBLICAL PLURAL MARRIAGES RIGHT OR WRONG? WHAT DOES YAHUAH SAY?

Also, here are some articles about Marriage, Divorce and Remarriage; kinda off subject, but it goes into a LOT of what Bro. kickme is talking about.

Marriage, Divorce and Remarriage. by Scott Diffenderfer
What God Has Joined (What does the Bible really teach about divorce?)

There are more, but these will do fine.

I learned about polygamy almost a year ago. The the question was first brought to me, I was kinda like, "can this still be scriptural for today?". Like most, I thought that a man having more than one wife was PURE adultery; I didn't stop to think of our forefathers and foremothers whom had and were in polygamous relationships. Shoot, if it wasn't for them, we would not be here.

Anyways, I studied it out for myself, and WOW; I just saw it.
Ever since then, I just new that Yah wanted me in such a relationship. Well...at least I "thought" it was...no need to open that can of worms. *sighs*

Anyways, I personally see no problems with polygamy what so ever. I see it as a good thing.

Watchman555 said above "what would be some of the reasons for having multiple wives in this season?"
Well, I am sure it varies from man to man and even from woman to woman, but said brother whom I was involved with (not naming names) wanted a big family. He wanted to start a farm and live off the land that Yah would provide us. It was very sweet and endearing actually.
And to be honest, if given the chance, I'd still do it.

I believe whole heartedly the polygamy is both a good and positive thing; it CAN work. All parties have to be of one mind. If there is no unity, it will only cause strife, and if one is using and or lying to the other, it will only end in heart ache.

Shalom and hugs to all.
Adrianne ~


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