Debunking Eliyah's (Tom's) Article #2

[BrotherArnold]

Tom’s strategy was to Historically prove that the Essenes observe the same weeks and weekly Sabbath as did the Jews, which we already agree. But Tom fails to prove that the Jews or the Essenes observed the traditional weeks and weekly Sabbath. I can conclusively prove as Tom has done, that the Essenes observed the same weeks and weekly seventh day Sabbath as did the Jews but I can also conclusively prove that the Jews observed lunar weeks and lunar seventh day Sabbaths. The Historical evidence found in Philo (that Tom stayed away from) and other Historical documents, conclusively proves that the Jews observed lunar Sabbaths. Using some of Tom’s on words, because he done such a good job of explaining how the Essenes observed same seventh Day Sabbath as the Jews.

2. The Dead Sea Scrolls and Josephus
The Dead Sea Scrolls are considered by scholars to be authored by the Essenes, a sect in first century Judaism. In the Dead Sea Scrolls, there are a number of extra-biblical scrolls which appear to shed light on what this sect believed and practiced. Understanding what they believed can be helpful in determining whether or not the Lunar Sabbath was being observed by mainstream Judaism of that time.
Lunar Sabbatarians believe that the authors of these scrolls keep a Lunar Sabbath BECAUSE these AUTHORS would say things like the new moon will fall on this date or that date of a particular month, even saying things like the new moon falls on the 25th etc. this is conclusive evidence that they had to have had a solar only calendar in front of them because the true new moon can never be on the 25th and is is always on the first day of every month, so they were obviously showing where the new moon would fall on the solar only calendar and that because the new moon was not a part of the solar only calendar. The same is true with the full moon and the true weekly Sabbaths, they also would show where they would fall on Julius Caesar’s calendar because they to were not a part of it, as the following will show. Anyone who cannot accept the fact that there were TWO calendars is in a state of denial. And if you can accept that fact, the evidence shows that if they were observing the traditional seventh day Sabbaths there would be no need to mention where the seventh day Sabbaths fall because on a cycling every seven-day Sabbath calendar, the Sabbath be on every seventh day, but if the Sabbaths and new moon on days were by the moon, the naturally they would have to show what date they fell on the solar only calendar. This is an absolute.

Below is still more evidence that the Dead Sea Scrolls support the Lunar Sabbaths. And as I said, the scribes are showing where the true Sabbaths and new moons falls on the solar only calendar. If the true weekly Sabbath was a repetition seven-day pattern, the scribes would not have to tell you where the Sabbaths fall, because they would already be every seventh day. Same thing with the true new moon/month, if it were a part of that calendar, they would not have to tell you where it falls . We do the same thing today, we lay our solar only calendar out and circle the days on which the true new moons falls, true feast days falls and the true creation Sabbaths Falls. If the new moons and Sabbaths were a part of that calendar, it would be no need to have to say they fall here or there. We have to do this because the creation calendar, with its new moons and Sabbaths is not a part of Caesars calendar, therefore we have to show where the full moon, new moon, feast days, and Sabbaths days fall, throughout the solar year. The scribes were in a transitional period from solar lunar calendar to strictly solar only calendar and today we are in a transitional period back the other way. The Dead Sea Scrolls are very choppy to say the least, and hard to read, sometimes even guessing at what it is saying and what should go where, but the very fact that they are telling you where the Sabbath and new moons etc. falls, proves that the true Sabbaths and new moons were not a part of the solar only calendar that was in front of them and therefore it is conclusive proof that they were keeping lunar months and lunar weeks with a lunar Sabbath at the end of the lunar week.

Noticed the language that is used when showing where the Sabbath and new moons etc. falls.

4Qcalendrical Document (4Q327)
Frag. 1 col. I
3 The sixteenth 4falls on a Sabbath. 5 the twenty-third falls on the a Sabbath. The thirtieth

Frag. 1 col. II 1 falls on a Sabbath. 2 On the twenty-3second 4 falls on the feast of oil. 6 Af[ter the Sabbath 7 […] 8 the offering of

(Note: the feast of oil which fell on the 22nd, would not be by the Roman calendar.)

Frag. 2 col. I the twenty-5third 6 falls on a Sabbath. 5 The thirtieth 8 falls on a Sabbath.

Frag. 2 col. II 2falls on a Sabbath. 3 On the twenty-4eight 5 a Sabbath falls 6 on it. After 7 the Sabbath 8 the [fe]stival of the […]

Frag 2 col. III 1falls [on a Sabbath.] 2 The eleven[th] 3 on a Sabbath. 4 The eight5eenth falls on a Sabbath. 6 The twenty-7fifth 8 falls only Sabbath. 4 The second 10
of the month

It is obvious that there are two calendars being compared and the authors are marking which days of the solar only calendar falls on the Sabbath, in order to plan their schedules. We go through the whole year’s calendar month by month circling which days falls on the creation Sabbath throughout the whole year so we can plan out our Roman commercial work weeks and not profane the true creation Sabbaths and new moons when they come around. You would not need to say the 16th falls on a Sabbath if the 16th was a Sabbath on the Roman calendar because it is every seventh day regardless. The Sabbath that the 16 falls on was obviously a lunar Sabbath by the moon and was not a part of the solar only calendar and that is why they tell where it falls. They also used the exact same method with the new moons because they do not belong on that calendar either. If they had said the 16th falls on a new moon instead of a Sabbath, what would you think they were talking about? (meditate on that awhile) I would think that the 16th of the solar only calendar falls on the true new moon day which is not a part of that calendar, just like the creation Sabbath is not a part of that Roman calendar either.

When we were planning a vacation or perhaps we get a speeding ticket and have to go to court on the 20th and my wife says the 20th fall’s on a Sabbaths, that don’t mean that the 20th is on the traditional Saturday that comes every seventh day on that calendar because we are lunar Sabbath observers and were speaking of the Sabbath that is not part of the traditional world calendar that the court uses.

When we read in the Dead Sea Scrolls how that the writers were making calendars showing how that certain days of the lunar month such as the full moon or new moon will fall on the 25th etc, we know from deductive reasoning that there are two calendars in view because the full moon or new moon cannot fall on the 25th of the month.

I could see how someone might sit down in front of a Roman calendar and say that the New moon will fall here or their BECAUSE the New moon is OUTSIDE of that calendar and is not a part of it and therefore one might say the New moon will fall on this date or that date, or they might say this date or that date falls on the new moon because it is not part of that calendar, but I CANNOT see how someone would sit down in front of the traditional calendar and say the Sabbath falls on this day or that day UNLESS it to IS NOT a part of that calendar. They would be no need to say the Saturday/Sabbath fall here or there because every SEVENTH day is a Saturday/Sabbath, UNLESS, like I said these Sabbaths and new moons that they were speaking of, were OUTSIDE the Roman calendar, same as the full moon, and other feast days and it had to be made known where they would fall, it makes no sense any other way. I.e. The New moon will fall on this date of the month and why say the 16 falls on the Sabbath if the 16th is a Sabbath???? The New Moon is always on the first day of the month, you do not have to say it is going to fall here or there if it were a part of that calendar and the same logic applies to the weekly Sabbath, which falls on the quarters of the moon.
If the calendar they were sitting before was a 1 through 7 Solar ONLY calendar, which seems to be the case here, why say anything concerning where the Sabbath Falls? Why even talk about it? Wouldn’t It be common knowledge that it fell every seventh day? Surely everyone can understands why they would say the true New moon falls here or there, because it was not a part of that calendar that they were sitting before and when they said the Sabbath falls here or there, is because it was not part of that calendar ether.

We also see in the Dead Sea Scrolls where they were showing where other feast days fell on the solar only calendar, such as Tabernacles, Day of Atonement, Passover, Wave Sheaf, etc. fell on days not consistent with scripture and we know all of these are by the Moon also, same as the weekly Sabbath and New Moon and had to be shown where they fall.
The Sabbaths were by the phases of the Moon same as the New moon and the other Holy Feast days were, and not common knowledge therefore they could intelligently say the New moon or Sabbath Falls here or their but it would not make sense to say anything at all unless the Sabbath that they would speaking of did not normally belong on that solar only calendar, same as the New moon and the other feast days does not belong on it. It seems evident that they were sitting before the Roman calendar and pinpointing when the TRUE New moons and the LUNAR seventh day Sabbath Falls.
No one would sit down with the Roman calendar and plan out their Sabbaths and new moons throughout the year, saying, the Sabbaths fall here or their unless the Sabbath does not normally belong their.
It would make PERFECT sense to EXPLAIN that the New moon falls on such and such a date of the Roman calendar but it would not make ANY sense to explain where the weekly Sabbaths falls on the Roman calendar if they are already a part of the Roman calendar EVERY SEVEN DAYS. This alone proves that the Sabbath and New moon/month that they referred to as falling on certain days is referring to the Creation Sabbath and New moon appointments spoken of in Genesis 1:14.the

Examples,

In scroll 4Q320 fragment 4 col. V1 says the Day of Atonement falls on the 6th, and the feast of tents on the 4th, Passover on the 3rd, waving of the sheaf on the 1st, second Passover on the 3rd, day of remembrance on the 4th, and so on. We know that these dates are not consistent with Scripture and the only explanation is that these were dates on the creation calendar and the calendar makers were showing where these day would fall on the man-made solar only calendar, possibly for commercial reasons.
I can show in the scrolls, if anyone is interested, where the full moon falls on days like the 25th and new moon the same way and we all know there can neither be a new moon or full moon on the 25th etc, no more than the Day of Atonement on the sixth. These men were in a transitional period, much like today, people will ask us when the Sabbaths and new moon are going fall this month etc. because the true Sabbaths and true new moons are not a part of these traditional Roman calendars.

Even many of the traditional Roman calendars of today show where the New moons and its 4 quarterly weekly phases will fall throughout the months of the year which the ancient calendar makers called Sabbaths, before the destruction of the Temple. We find in the Dead Sea Scrolls where this was being done, see above. Hardly anyone would ever wonders why the New moon and its seven-day phases appears on the calendar, after all WHO CARES? They mean nothing to us today, but should they? Why does the world care? Could it be that we still have the same type calendars today and they still show us where the new moon worship day falls and where the quarter worship days fall, but no one knows what they are for today our pays them no attention but when it was fresh the Jewish people would know what days their weekly Sabbaths and new moon fell on for commercial reasons etc.
After the destruction of the Temple and the religious Jewish people scattered, and the Roman solar only calendar had phased its way in, which no longer used the moon for months as proven by any good encyclopedia under calendar. The New commercial calendar just counted one through seven, over and over again and when they came to the new Moon worship day, they also counted it as an ordinary workday and continued the one through seven count and that’s what we have today because they’ve done away with the new moon day marker. People do not recognize the New moons and Creation Sabbaths/quarter moons that overlay on to the Roman calendar, should be kept, because of the traditions of men. The same type transitional calendars that these men worked on are still before us today but we don’t understand them because of the traditions of men.
Over time men realized that the moon affected many things including agricultural and assumed that this is why the ancient calendar makers were place their, showing where the New moons and Sabbaths fell but we believe it was originally for religious purposes because they also showed where the other Holy Feasts days fell on the calendar also. Those moon phases are still there on the calendar today but are not used for religious appointments as they were during the time of the Dead Sea Scrolls and as Genesis 1:14 where it teaches to let them be for appointments, was intended.

The ESSENES

The scroll shows that they were NOT observing a recurring seven day weekly cycle, independent of the moon phases.

In the book of Philo and Josephus, speaks much about the Essenes. Josephus was a first century Jewish historian who wrote much about life in Judea during the first century. He goes into great detail as to how practices of the Essenes were different than others. He mentions everything from how the Essenes don't carry anything with them when they travel, to how they regard oil to be defilement. In Wars of the Jews 2:119-161, Josephus speaks of them in no less than 2000 words, describing over 100 characteristics of their way of life.
So did Josephus mention that they kept the Sabbath on a day that was different than the rest of Judaism?
Wars of the Jews 2:147 ... Moreover, they are stricter than any other of the Jews in resting from their labors on the seventh day; for they not only get their food ready the day before, that they may not be obliged to kindle a fire on that day, but they will not move any vessel out of its place, nor go to stool thereon.
In this, Josephus even goes so far as to say that the Essenes are "stricter than any other of the Jews in resting from their labors on the seventh day." Does it sound like there was any disagreement as to when the Sabbath was? Wouldn't it seem strange that Josephus would mention that the Essenes were stricter in their resting from labors on the Sabbath but not bother to mention that the Essenes held the Sabbath on a totally different day than the other Jews of that period?
The fact is, if the Essenes were keeping a different day than the rest of Judaism, Josephus wouldn't have been able to say that they were even resting on the seventh day to begin with. He would have to say they were typically resting on some other day and when I get to Philo, I will give the CONCLUSIVE PROOF that the Esseness OBSERVED LUNAR SABBATHS, same as the rest of the Jews and our Savior and His Apostles.
There is no record in the Dead Sea Scrolls of the Essenes disagreeing with other groups as to when the Sabbath was. In fact, there is no historical record of any Jewish sects disagreeing with each other on when the Sabbath was.
In another interesting note, Josephus speaks of one of the large towers that were built in Jerusalem:
Wars of the Jews 4:582 and the last was erected above the top of the Pastophoria, where one of the priests stood of course, and gave a signal beforehand with a trumpet, at the beginning of every seventh day, in the evening twilight, as also at the evening when that day was finished, as giving notice to the people when they were to stop work, and when they were to go to work again.
So his report is that a trumpet was blown at the beginning of every seventh day, to mark when the people should stop working, and begin working.
It’s quite evident from Josephus that the Essenes observe the same weekly Sabbath as did the Jews and after we see what Philo had to say, I will proceed to show that the weeks and seventh day of the weeks were Lunar.

PHILO

First I will give you some of what Philo had to say about the ESSENES and then I will show you what Philo had to say about the SEVENTH DAY and how It was by the phases of the moon and I will give conclusive proof that Philo also observed LUNAR Sabbaths, as did the Essenes. Philo wrote, speaking of the Essenes,

EVERY GOOD MAN IS FREE XIII (91)
(91) “and yet no one, not even of those immoderately cruel tyrants, nor of the more treacherous and hypocritical oppressors was ever able to bring any real accusation against the multitude of those called Essenes or Holy. But everyone being subdued by the virtue of these men, looked up to them ….â€

[Luneee]

I started working my way through Tom's mise, which I consider blasphemous, for several reasons I will state, and I am shocked, amazed, awed, and confused at the same time with this brother's presentation. It leads me to only one conclusion: that Tom is blind.

I hope there is not an option of: he sees the truth, and refuses to accept it.

Here are my thoughts and opinions after critically reading through part of this. (I am not finished, but WOW, the repeated claims that have no proof in this writing are astounding, and I have surely missed some of them.)


**************************** Tom's words are in black, mine in blue.
What constitutes proof?

I have found that there are different levels of what constitutes "proof" in the mind of people. Some require just a little bit of evidence to support a doctrine or belief, and others require a lot of evidence to support a doctrine or belief. We need to be careful that we are relying on real evidence to support our belief rather than an interpretation of evidence. In my mind, the evidence used to "prove" the Lunar Sabbath doctrine rely on a person to already be predisposed to believing in the Lunar Sabbath in order to interpret the evidence in such a way that supports their doctrine.

I've found that in order to really believe in the Lunar Sabbath doctrine, one would need to rely on a certain level of (highly interpretive) evidence rather than real "proof."
[as Tom states above, what is "proof" varies with each reader, this includes Tom, who may indeed have an impossible standard of proof.] Yet, strung throughout some Lunar Sabbatarian literature are very strong terms such as "conclusive proof." When examining this "conclusive proof," it becomes clear that the evidence offered is far from proof, let alone conclusive. We need to beware of someone's broad-brushed use of terms like this [including Tom's use of the word "proof," to be fair] and be a good judge [ambiguous term] of whether or not what they offer is really "proof." It's easy to be swayed by such strong terminology, so we should be willing to make our own judgments about whether or not their evidence really is "proof."

[Keep this in mind when applying Tom's arguments. This sword swings both ways.]
So at the heart of where we stand regarding this doctrine is determining "what truly constitutes a scriptural fact," and what is merely a surmising, or a theory which requires one believe a series of "possibilities" rather than real facts. [This question Tom presents isn't answered hereon, neither by Tom, nor by scripture.]

What is the Lunar Sabbath?

The Lunar Sabbath ignores the current weekly 7 day cycle in use today [read: Gregorian/Vatican/Pagan calendar] and uses the moon to determine when a new week begins and ends. [Actually, it is using the moon to determine when the moonth (month) starts and ends, and thus subsequently the week.] So rather than observing the Sabbath on the 7th day of a recurring, uninterrupted [the words "recurring" and/or "uninterrupted" are NEVER shown to have scriptural support or source of origin hereon.] 7 day week, Lunar Sabbatarians restart a weekly 7 day cycle near the beginning of each lunar month. [More disinformation. The new moon starts the month. This means it starts a "month" cycle. It only follows that weeks and days are in a month.] A lunar month follows the phases of the moon rather than the 30-31 day calendar in use today. [Read: the Gregorian/Vatican/Pagan calendar.]

Yahweh's annual feast days are indeed determined by certain days of certain lunar months. [Leviticus 23:3 Sabbath is the first feast listed in the listing of the feasts. What Tom fails to point out, and what I point out for balance, is that Tom ignores the existence of this scripture.] Starting from the crescent phase of the moon, Yahweh's Passover is on the 14th day of the first month of each year. But Lunar Sabbath keepers believe that the regular Sabbath falls on certain days of every month. They choose to keep the regular Sabbath on the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th day of every lunar month. A few do it on the 7th, 14th, 21st and 28th days of each lunar month but for the sake of simplicity we will address those who keep it on the 8th, 15th, 22nd and 29th days. Here is an illustration to help clarify:

[ILLUSTRATION MISSING FROM THIS POST]

Because the Lunar Sabbath ignores the current weekly cycle [Read: Gregorian/Vatican/Pagan calendar] in use today, their Sabbath may fall on any day of our modern week. It depends completely and solely on the moon phases. One major problem that Lunar Sabbath keepers face is the fact that there are extra days in the month which prevent them from being able to keep the Sabbath every seven days. [But no scripture is given showing the words "every seven days." Hmmmm.]

The moon moves through one complete cycle (new moon, first quarter, full moon, last quarter, conjunction) in approximately 29.5 days (See graphic to the right). Since we cannot split a day in half, this means that some lunar months will last 29 days, but other lunar months will last 30 days.

So what do Lunar Sabbath keepers to on the 1st and 30th days of each month?

This is where some may differ. While everyone calls them "New moon days," some keep them as an extension of the Sabbath day on the 29th. This presents a problem though because there are scriptures which show men building (Exodus 40) [Is setting up the tabernacle unto Yahuah breaking the Sabbath, if it is a command? Wouldn't that be part of worship?] and traveling (Ezra 7:9) on the new moon day. Also, it is not commanded anywhere that we must rest on any new moon day except the new moon day of the 7th month [So, what is the controversy here? If it is not a problem to travel or build on a new moon day, why create/raise a controversy where there is none?] . The new moon on the 7th month is the Feast of Trumpets. This new moon would be what scripture alludes to in Amos 8:5 when some couldn't sell their grains on the new moon day. [BEWARE: This is Tom's opinion, and no support exists in scripture for this. We should be absolutely AFRAID to base our actions on someone else's opinions!!! Romans 14:12 Each one of us, therefore, shall give account of himself to Elohim.]

Others only refrain from commerce or employment on those days but are free to do all other manner of work such as mowing the lawn, gardening, digging ditches, building houses, traveling, and doing housework. What this would essentially mean is they don't truly get a day of rest every seven days. They would have to wait for up to nine days to get a day of rest. For instance, if they kept the Sabbath on the 29th day of the month, they would be permitted to do various kinds of work on the 30th day of that month and the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th days of the following month. This means a person could potentially work 8 days rather than the 6 that Yahweh commanded, and rest on the 9th day instead of the 7th day that Yahweh commanded.

With either method, Yahweh's command to work six days and rest on the seventh is ignored at the end of every month. [more misinformation, and this appears to be a lie (intentional or unintentional) from Tom, adding to scripture what isn't there. Yahuah never commands us to work six days. He allows us to work during six days before a Sabbath. He COMMANDS us to rest after six days that we are allowed to work during, then the seventh is the Sabbath. Notice no scripture is given here from Tom for this "command to work six days". Can you imagine working straight for six days with no sleep or rest? My point is not meant to exaggerate, but to show that there is no command to "work six days".

The truth is shown as follows:

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

The command is not given to work six days. The command is that we are allowed to work during six days, or else we are all breaking the Torah when we sleep at night.]

[Luneee]

"Moedim" scriptures proving Lunar Sabbaths?

The Lunar Sabbath doctrine is primarily founded upon three key scriptures. [Not necesarily. Lunar Sabbath "Doctrine" if that is what Tom wishes to call it is also realized through logic. The moon starts the month. The moon signals the feasts, of which the Sabbath is included (Leviticus 23:3), so it stands to reason that logic is defied by suddenly switching to the Gregorian/Vatican/Pagan calendar to determine when Sabbath is.] These three scriptures are foundational to the Lunar Sabbath believer, and they will be prominently quoted on their web sites and study papers when trying to prove their doctrine. One Lunar Sabbatarian says they are the "strongest points" for this doctrine, and most others seem to agree.

Since they are considered to be the strongest points, we should look to see if they are effective in establishing any facts. The first scripture is found in the book of Genesis:

Genesis 1:14 Then Elohim said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years;

A Lunar Sabbath believer will quickly point out that the moon, being one of the lights in the firmament of heaven, was created for "seasons." The word translated "seasons" in this scripture is the Hebrew word "Moedim," which most everyone will agree means "Appointed times."

Here is the Strong's Lexicon entry:
4150 mow`ed mo-ade' or moled {mo-ade'}; or (feminine) moweadah (2Chronicles 8:13) {mo-aw-daw'}; from 3259; properly, an appointment, i.e. a fixed time or season; specifically, a festival; conventionally a year; by implication, an assembly (as convened for a definite purpose); technically the congregation; by extension, the place of meeting; also a signal (as appointed beforehand):--appointed (sign, time), (place of, solemn) assembly, congregation, (set, solemn) feast, (appointed, due) season, solemn(-ity), synagogue, (set) time (appointed).

Now we will look at the second key scripture, the introduction to Yahweh's appointed times in Leviticus 23:

Leviticus 23:1-3 And Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying, 2 "Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: 'The feasts <4150> of Yahweh, which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, these are My feasts <4150>. 3 ' Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of Yahweh in all your dwellings.

The word translated "feasts" in verse 2 is again the Hebrew word "Moedim." Notice that the weekly Sabbath is chiefly listed among the "moedim." This is a very important scripture to the Lunar Sabbath believer. For them, it proves that the moon must be involved in setting the time of the weekly Sabbath. Since the Sabbath is listed as one of the "moedim" along with the other festivals such as Passover and the Feast of Weeks later on in this chapter, and Genesis 1:14 says the moon is for the "moedim," the logic of Lunar Sabbatarians is that the moon must also be used to determine the regular weekly Sabbath. [Irony: That Tom uses the word "logic," in showing that Lunar Sabbatarians follow it, but attempts to show that their following logic is illogical, through his argument hereon, which is based in opinion, not logic or fact.]

Let's now move onto the third and final scripture which Lunar Sabbath believers use as the "strongest points" for their belief:
Psalm 104:19 He appointed the moon for seasons; The sun knows its going down.

Again, we have the Hebrew word "Moedim" in this verse, translated "seasons." For them, this scripture puts to rest any argument that the moon is not used to determine the weekly Sabbath, which is among the "moedim"
On the surface, this might sound like pretty sound logic:

1) The moon is for "moedim."
2) The regular Sabbath is called a "moedim" in scripture.
3) Therefore, the moon must somehow be used determine the regular Sabbath.

However, the above logic is not based on all the facts. [IMPORTANT: No logic is based on all the facts. No one has all the facts but Yahuah.] It is important that we base our beliefs on the full counsel of Yahweh, and not on what "sounds plausible" from just looking at a few scriptures and assuming we have the truth. [ Yes, indeed Tom. That works both ways.]

This logic does NOT center around the understanding that the moon is for "moedim." This logic centers around the belief that the moon must be used in setting ALL "moedim." It is very important to understand the difference. [The irony here is that Tom uses Leviticus 23 in his setting up of this road of attempting to disprove the Lunar Sabbath. I have no problem with Tom using Leviticus 23 in showing how the logic applies to the Lunar Sabbath. The problem I have is that Tom proceeds to claim (although he doesn't state it in his three points of logic above) that Lunar Sabbatarians believe that the moon must be used in setting ALL moedim. Although he doesn't provide support for that claim. He shows that the moedim are listed in Leviticus 23, then claims that Lunar Sabbatarians believe that the moon is to set ALL moedim (specifically inferring the ones not listed, such as birth, marriage, death, the start of a war, the rise or fall of a nation, all of which are appointed by Yahuah, are believed by Lunar Sabbatarians to be regulated by Lunar cycle.) There simply is no proof for this that I am aware of, and certainly no proof in Tom's article. (NOTE: The moedim in Leviticus 23, including the Sabbath, ARE determined by the moon. Months and days are used to calculate these, and months and days are determined by the moon, not the Gregorian/Vatican/Pagan calendar.)]

If there are examples in scripture where the moon is not used to determine a "moedim," then their entire argument will fall to the ground. Why? Because if we have examples in scripture where the moon is not involved in setting some "moedim," it proves that the moon doesn't necessarily need to be involved in the weekly Sabbath either.

[IMPORTANT: The words "doesn't necessarily" are disclaimers, and give Tom much needed escape room. Tom, all of a sudden, isn't presenting facts, as he seeks above, but is now presenting disclaimers. This should send up a red flag. Besides, the first verse Tom quotes is Genesis 1:14, which sets out ""signs and seasons, and for days and years". Are there instances where signs are given other than by the moon? Yes. Are there instances where years are started other than by the moon? What about days? Isn't the Sabbath a "sign" as well a "day" as well as an "appointed time" (moedim)? Maybe it's just me, but it would appear that the Sabbath fits in three of the four (seasons being excluded) categories listed in this verse.]

So let's take a look:
Judges 20:38 Now the appointed signal <4150> between the men of Israel and the men in ambush was that they would make a great cloud of smoke rise up from the city,

In the above scripture, the word "moed" is translated "appointed signal." "Moed" is the singular form of "Moedim." It comes from the same Strong's lexicon word number. Obviously, since the appointed signal was making a cloud of smoke rise up from the city, we would have to conclude that the moon had no involvement in this "moedim." Obviously we can't use the moon to light a fire. [This is deceptive, because this "appointed signal" is not listed in the appointed times list of Leviticus 23, which was one of the scriptures Tom bases this whole antithesis (reverse argument) on.]

Here the word is translated "appointed time:"

Numbers 28:2-4 "Command the children of Israel, and say to them, 'My offering, My food for My offerings made by fire as a sweet aroma to Me, you shall be careful to offer to Me at their appointed time. <4150> ' 3 "And you shall say to them, 'This is the offering made by fire which you shall offer to Yahweh: two male lambs in their first year without blemish, day by day, as a regular burnt offering. 4 'The one lamb you shall offer in the morning, the other lamb you shall offer in the evening,
This is describing a daily sacrifice in the temple or tabernacle. There were two lambs were offered daily, one in the morning and the other in the evening. Yahweh says, "you shall be careful to offer to Me at their appointed time <4150>."

The "appointed time" or "moed" here is morning and evening. The moon is not involved in determining the morning or evening, yet these are called "moedim." This clearly demonstrates that some of Yahweh's "moedim" do not involve the moon at all. [But the "lights in the firmanent," as stated in Genesis 1:14, are involved, because the sun is involved in the moedim, thus the lights determine the moedim here in this scripture. Genesis says the "lights" are for the moedim, not a Gregorian/Vatican calendar.

The moedim listed in Leviticus 23, which Tom is conveniently ignoring now are determined by the moon. Tom appears to be saying that because Lunar Sabbatarians believe ALL of the moedim in Leviticus 23 involve the moon, any other moedim: (birth, marriage, death, wars, etc) must be determined by the moon, although Tom doesn't show where he draws this conclusion from, and he offers no facts to support his presumed claim.]

It is true that Yahweh did appoint the moon for "moedim," but obviously not ALL of Yahweh's "moedim" as Lunar Sabbath keepers indicate. [But the moon does apply to all of them in Leviticus 23, which are listed as "The appointed times of YHWH, which you are to proclaim as set-apart gatherings, My appointed times, are these[.]" Notice the scripture Tom uses above ( Judges 20:38 ) does not say that the appointed signal is YHWH's appointed time.]

Therefore, their assertion that ALL of Yahweh's "moedim" must involve the moon (and thus the Sabbath must also involve the moon) is simply not true. [First, the Sabbath is the FIRST moedim listed in Leviticus 23. Second, Tom alleges that Lunar Sabbatarians assert something, but no support is given to prove any assertion is made, and what Tom is calling Yahweh's moedim are not equal with the moedim listed in Leviticus 23.]

To prove this point even further, consider the context of Psalm 104:19:

Psalm 104:18-19 The high hills are for the wild goats; The cliffs are a refuge for the rock badgers. 19 He appointed the moon for seasons; The sun knows its going down.

If we choose to follow the belief of Lunar Sabbath keepers, it becomes evident that they are adding to Yahweh's inspired word when they say Yahweh "appointed the moon for ALL 'moedim and ALL 'moedim' must involve use the moon.'" [Again, Tom's use of the word "all" is deceptive. Ironically, the only moedim listed in Leviticus 23 that Tom has a problem with is the Sabbath.]

To prove this notion wrong, we need only check the context of Psalm 104:19. Take a moment and notice closely the previous verse, which uses a similar kind of sentence structure. It says, "the high hills are for the wild goats." For a Lunar Sabbath keeper to be consistent in his belief, consider the problem here:

IF: Yahweh "appointed the moon for ALL 'moedim and ALL 'moedim' must involve use the moon."
[Tom, Tom, Tom... Yahuah lists his feasts in Leviticus 23, and ALL of those moedim listed thereon involve the moon.]

THEN (by the same logic): Yahweh has also made "the high hills for ALL wild goats and ALL wild goats must use high hills"

[This is smoke and mirrors at it's finest. Tom imports the word "ALL" in to the scripture of Psalm 104:19. Isn't that adding to the scripture? Where does he find that Lunar Sabbatarians add in the word "ALL?"]

Of course, this is ridiculous but it demonstrates the fallacy of being so dogmatic that ALL 'moedim' involve use the moon. [Yep. I wholeheartedly agree, Tom. Where's the controversy? I doubt my death is planned by a phase of the moon. But, my death, although appointed, isn't listed in Leviticus 23.]

What we're looking at here in Psalm 104 is Hebrew poetry, not dogmatic, legalistic statements. Otherwise, you could even go on to verse 20 and find that ALL the beasts of the forest need to wake up and creep about at least once every night. [Tom, YOU are adding the word "ALL" here, not Lunar Sabbatarians. Be honest, and stop putting claims against others without support to back it up.]

In summary, the assertion that all of Yahweh's "moedim" must use the moon is simply not true. [Yahuah's moedim in Leviticus 23 are reckoned by the moon, and the Sabbath is the first one.] The meaning of the word "Moedim" in Hebrew is broader than Lunar Sabbath keepers make it out to be, and when you examine their very rigid interpretation of Psalm 104:19 more closely, it defies the basics of common sense. [Tom claims that Lunar Sabbatarians have a very rigid interpretation of Psalm 104:19, but offers no proof. Huh?]

We do need to be careful about things like this. Anyone can pull a scripture out of context here or there and it might appear to fit their theology. [RED ALERT : Tom is correct here, and that is just what Tom is doing.] But in order to fully understand the meanings of Hebrew words, we need to consistently examine the meaning and context of various scriptures. When we do this, the true meanings come to light.

So for me, all of this begs the question, "If these scriptures are the 'strongest points for the Sabbath by the moon,' and the interpretation given is obviously quite groundless [Tom hasn't shown anything groundless, save his "argument/opinion."] , what does that say about their weaker points?"

In the absence of any scriptures telling us that the moon must be involved in the weekly Sabbath, there is no real scriptural basis for Lunar Sabbath keeping. [Again, Tom has totally ignored the Leviticus 23 listing of the Sabbath. He has made no explanation at all for the Sabbath being in that chapter, and being the first appointed time listed.]

[Luneee]

Pinpointed Sabbaths proving Lunar Sabbaths?

The second of the "strongest points for Sabbaths by the moon" are the places in scripture that speak of Yahweh's Sabbath occurring on days of the month that Lunar Sabbatarians consider to be the Sabbath. I don't see why it would even be a strong point to begin with. Since this there is a one in seven chance of it happening with the weeks being independent of the moon cycle, it can happen almost twice a year on average. The fact that one of them would be mentioned in scripture proves absolutely nothing. [Tom is saying that something "mentioned in scripture proves absolutely nothing." Do you, the reader believe this statement? If so, why are you here? If scripture 'proves absolutely nothing," then why follow Torah?]


For a Lunar Sabbath doctrine to be established, one would need to prove that the Sabbath was on particular day of the lunar month for two or more months in a row. This would be impossible with the recurring weekly cycle. But, in spite of valiant efforts by Lunar Sabbatarians, they have yet to prove such a thing. If anyone thinks that they have, feel free to contact me. [This same standard cannot be met by the SaturnDay Sabbatarians. They cannot even prove ONE Sabbath was on a SaturnDay, and thus it is impossible for them to prove two months consecutive, by scripture. This is a sad attempt to place a one-sided burden of proof on Lunar Sabbatarians, when Tom is the one making the claim. Can Tom prove that the scripture shows two months of consecutive SaturnDay Sabbaths? I don't see that hereon. But, he claims because there is one or two scriptures that might support Lunar Sabbath, they "prove absolutely nothing."]
In my own examination of their claims, there are only one or two places in scripture that one might be able to prove Yahweh's Sabbath fell on a particular day of the month.

The first one appears when you examine Exodus 16:1 which places the completion of Israel's journey to the Wilderness of Sin on the 15th day of the 2nd month:

Exodus 16:1 And they journeyed from Elim, and all the congregation of the children of Israel came to the Wilderness of Sin, which is between Elim and Sinai, on the fifteenth day of the second month after they departed from the land of Egypt.

On the following day (16th day of the month), Yahweh began to send His manna from heaven and told them to gather twice as much on the sixth day which would be the 21st day of the month:

Exodus 16:22-23 And so it was, on the sixth day, that they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for each one. And all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses. 23 Then he said to them, "This is what Yahweh has said: 'Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to Yahweh. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.' "

Assuming that there weren't any days in Exodus 16 that scripture doesn't mention anything about, this would place the seventh day Sabbath on the 22nd day of the month. Of course, the fact that we can find a scripture where the Sabbath happens to fall on the 22nd day of the month does not prove that we should accept the Lunar Sabbath doctrine. As I previously mentioned, this can take place about twice a year on average. [Ahhh. Yes, Move along folks. Nothing to see here, this isn't important. (because it shows a sabbath on a Lunar Sabbath schedule.) This "proves absolutely nothing," according to Tom. So just ignore this...]

In reality, these passages do more damage to the Lunar Sabbath doctrine than help. Yahweh gave Manna for six days but withheld Manna on the Sabbath:

Exodus 16:24-30 So they laid it up till morning, as Moses commanded; and it did not stink, nor were there any worms in it. 25 Then Moses said, "Eat that today, for today is a Sabbath to Yahweh; today you will not find it in the field. 26 "Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, which is the Sabbath, there will be none." 27 Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. 28 And Yahweh said to Moses, "How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? 29 "See! For Yahweh has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day." 30 So the people rested on the seventh day.

Notice that it says, "How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? "See! For Yahweh has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days." Yahweh was trying to teach them which day the Sabbath was by giving them bread for two days. They were sent Manna for the 6th and 7th days of the week so they would not need to gather any on the Sabbath. [and this damages the Lunar Sabbath doctrine how?]
With the Lunar Sabbath, such a principle falls into trouble at the end of the month. Did Yahweh give triple or quadruple the amount of Manna so that Israel could keep the 29th, 30th and 1st day of the following month? Or, did He rain the double portion of Manna on the 28th day of the month and allow them to collect Manna again on the 30th day and 1st day of the following month (new moon days)?

Either way would conflict with the principle that Yahweh was teaching in Exodus 16. Either Yahweh would have to send a quadruple portion on the 28th day to cover the 28th, 29th, 30th and 1st day (they might be up to their knees in Manna!), or He sends Manna for the 7-8 days following the 29th day of the Lunar month (which conflicts with the principle "Six days you shall gather it.") [Both scenarios are conjecture, because they present hypothesis, but no facts exist concerning what really happened. This is more smoke and mirrors. This is using an argument for which no facts exist to prove or disprove a doctrine for which facts do exist.]

The second place in scripture where it might be demonstrated that there was a Sabbath on one of the Lunar Sabbath days is during the week that Yahushua died on the tree. The day after His death was clearly some kind of Sabbath:
John 19:30-31 So when Yahushua had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit. 31 Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. [emphasis added by Jay Vincent.]

We know that Yahushua was killed on the day of Passover, which would be the 14th day of the 1st month. If we believe the above Sabbath to be a weekly Sabbath, that would indeed place the 15th day of the 1st month on a Sabbath. [Didn't Satan use this tactic in the Garden with Eve? "Is it true that Elohim has said?" (Why would we doubt what the Word says? Doesn't it say "the Sabbath"?)] However:

Matthew 12:40 "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

If Yahushua was speaking here of His time in the grave, and we take the expression "three days and three nights" literally rather than understanding it as an idiomatic expression, it would mean Yahushua died on the 4th day of the week. [What was Tom saying earlier about taking scripture out of context? Here is Tom's statement, verbatim: "We do need to be careful about things like this. Anyone can pull a scripture out of context here or there and it might appear to fit their theology." Hmmmm.]

We know that the women visited the tomb on the 1st day of the week and Yahushua had just risen. Tracing back three days and three nights in the tomb, we come to the 4th day of the week, commonly called "Wednesday."

[WHOA!!! RED ALERT!!! There is NO Wednesday mentioned ANYWHERE in the scripture!!!! This appears to be an attempt by Tom to base scripture on the Gregorian/Vatican/pagan calendar. Does Tom have the authority to do this? I cannot see him assert that he has the authority to base this on the Gregorian/Vatican/pagan calendar, can you?] This is This would mean the Sabbath mentioned in John 19:31 was a feast day Sabbath (15th day of the feast month, Feast of Unleavened Bread) rather than a weekly Sabbath. This would clearly contradict the Lunar Sabbath doctrine. ["would" is a disclaimer. Notice Tom does not use "does contradict." He cannot be absolute, because he is taking scripture out of context, and making suggestions.]

But even if the "three days and three nights" was an idiomatic expression and Yahushua died on the 6th day of the week as claimed by most of Christianity, the presence of Yahweh's Sabbath on the 15th day of the month in scripture does not prove it was always on the 15th day of the month. [Nor does it disprove that. But, it would prove that it was ONCE on the 15th, correct?] Still, Lunar Sabbath keepers regard these "pinpointed Sabbaths" and the dogmatic "Sabbath is a Moed" we discussed earlier to be, as one person puts it, the two "strongest points for Sabbath by the moon." [The irony is that Tom can not show ONE sabbath that correlates to SaturnDay in the bible, but he attacks the above instances where Lunar can be supported.]

All I can say is that such a threshold for establishing the truth of a doctrine is way too low [by Tom's standard, for he does not show a standard prescribed by scripture.], especially for something as important as keeping the fourth commandment! The basis upon which we make statements as if they are "fact" is very important. If someone is making a factual statement, they better have proof to support it. Even in their two "strongest points," there really isn't much strength to them at all. [Tom again disclaims, using the inconclusive descriptive word: "much". How much?

The fact is, Tom doesn't appear to know what a "day" (yom) is, nor does he appear to know the measurements given for the first six (an evening and a morning) are withheld on the seventh, and no measurement is given for the seventh day in Genesis. I'll be happy to be shown that I am in error, if indeed a measurement of time exists for the seventh day, and I have missed it.]

[Luneee]

Scriptures which declare the real Sabbath

A real problem with the Lunar Sabbath doctrine is a lack of a clear explanation anywhere in scripture. It would be different if there were two scriptures that seemed to contradict one another and we were trying to figure out why that seemed to be. But there is nothing in the weekly Sabbath pattern that contradicts the scriptures.

I don't believe anyone reading the Sabbath commandment in Leviticus 23, or Exodus 20 alongside the creation account is going to come up with a "Lunar Sabbath" doctrine. [What is meant here by "come up with" is left to interpretation of the reader.] There is no commandment anywhere in the scriptures which says:

"On the day following the new moon of each month, six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of Yahweh your Elohim. You shall do this for four weeks. Then, depending on whether the new month has started, you shall not engage in commerce or paid work for 1 or 2 days. Then you shall reset your week into the 'Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest' pattern." [Here, Tom again points to Leviticus 23, but fails to explain it away, and ignores it's relevance. Leviticus 23 is like the big white elephant sitting in Tom's living room. Interestingly, the Sabbath "commandment" in Leviticus 23 comes immediately after Yahuah says: "The appointed times of YHWH, which you are to proclaim as set-apart gatherings, My appointed times, are these:"]

Obviously, Yahweh never said any such thing, but this is the commandment that most Lunar Sabbath keepers follow. This is nothing more than a commandment of men because it is not found in the scriptures anywhere.
Let's remember that Yahweh said:

Deuteronomy 12:32 "Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it. [This is to be observed by both Lunar and SaturnDay Sabbatarians, or just Lunar Sabbatarians?]

The lack of such a command is, in my mind, quite damaging to the Lunar Sabbath doctrine. It basically means we need to assume that Yahweh thought people knew these things already, and always would, so He didn't need to explain it.

[Quote: "It basically means we need to assume..." So now, we are to assume for Yahweh? This is getting richer by the minute. "Isaiah 40:13-14 Who has meted out the Spirit of YHWH,or as His counsellor taught Him? With whom did He take counsel, and who instructed Him, and taught Him in the path of right-ruling? Who taught Him knowledge, and showed Him the way of understanding?" Do we elevate ourselves to "assume" for Yahuah? I would think this disclaimed instruction is fatally flawed, and scripturally baseless, since nowhere in scripture does the Word tell us to "basically assume" anything for Yahuah. ("basically" and "assume" are disclaimers, while "need to" is a prescriptive term, inferring burden of doing the assuming.)]

But...

If Yahweh was expecting man to work six days and keep the Sabbath on the seventh day on an uninterruptible recurring pattern, it would be easy to see that all He needed to do was command us to do our work for six days and rest on the seventh -- no further explanation needed. [underline emphasis added by Jay Vincent.]

And that's exactly what He did: [Based on the claim of Tom, keep your eyes peeled for the words "uninterruptible recurring pattern" or anything that mirrors this term. I couldn't find it, can you?]

Exodus 20:9-10 "Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of Yahweh your Elohim." [So we are not to rest at all during the six days? No sleep, no potty breaks, no form of rest at all? or, in keeping with ISR's translation of The Scriptures, and the common meaning of "shall" meaning "may", is work allowed to continue during six days before rest must occur? Which makes more sense to the reality of the capability of the body of man? Does Yahuah require an impossibility of working six days straight with no rest? or, as is logical, does He allow you to work during six days, then take a rest on the seventh?]

Exodus 23:12a "Six days you shall do your work, and on the seventh day you shall rest."
Exodus 31:15 "Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to Yahweh."
Exodus 31:17 "It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days Yahweh made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.' "
Exodus 34:21 "Six days you shall work, but on the seventh day you shall rest;"
Exodus 35:2 "Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh day shall be a holy day for you, a Sabbath of rest to Yahweh"
Deuteronomy 5:13-14 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of Yahweh your Elohim.

[The ISR translation of The Scriptures omits "shall". Did you see it? Did you catch the words: "uninterruptible recurring pattern" in the scriptures above? (Don't feel bad if you didn't, those words aren't really there at all, thus Tom's argument of such "proves absolutely nothing.")]

If we start without any fanciful ideas, and just take the scriptures for what they say, not adding anything to it, we could only arrive at understanding that Yahweh's Sabbath falls on an uninterruptible seven day (weekly) rotation.

[HOW, if those words aren't ADDED IN? I looked for the words "uninterruptible recurring pattern" and could not find them. Is Tom authorized to re-write scripture, or add to it?] There really isn't room for any other possible interpretations. [What I want to know is where the scripture commands: Tom has the only interpretation, and if he adds to the commands I have given you, you should accept Tom's adding to at face value, since he is authorized to add to My words." I can't find that one either.]

Six days you labor, and you rest on the seventh. [Notice even Tom removes the "shall" here, in his re-statement of the above scriptures.]

To further illustrate that a recurring pattern was intended, let's go back to the beginning of creation and find the Sabbath that Yahweh Himself established. [Here, Tom again claims that a "recurring pattern was intended." Does this not beg the question: Where is the scripture that says a "recurring pattern was intended?" WHERE IS THAT SCRIPTURE? I'll keep reading, in hopes that Tom will present it sometime hereon, but I can tell you I won't be holding my breath while looking for it.]

As we know, Genesis 1 details six days that Yahweh used to create the heavens and the earth. Each of those days consisted of an "evening and morning." Yahweh said that each of the "evenings and mornings" were specific days of a week.
When the seventh day came in Genesis 2, Yahweh said that He rested from his work, then blessed and sanctified that day:
Genesis 2:1-3 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day Elohim ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then Elohim blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which Elohim had created and made.
Later, when giving the Ten Commandments, Yahweh said:

Exodus 20:8-11 Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of Yahweh your Elohim. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days Yahweh made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore Yahweh blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Now, please pay close attention to what Yahweh has said. He blessed and sanctified one day. Twice He called it "the Sabbath day" and twice He called it "the seventh day." [Scroll back up to see where Tom, when quoting John 19:30-31, called into question whether "the Sabbath" actually meant "the Sabbath." Tom's actual words were: "If we believe the above Sabbath to be a weekly Sabbath[.]" (emphasis on "If" added by Jay Vincent) Are we, or are we not to believe scriptures? You tell me. Now, Tom gives absolute credence to "the Sabbath day[,]" while earlier calling it into doubt. Which side of the fence is Tom on here? Does he think "the Sabbath" really means "the Sabbath," or does he doubt it?

Meditate on this a moment:

The fact that Yahweh blessed and sanctified one specific day... clearly demonstrates that a cyclic pattern is to follow. If that cyclic (recurring) pattern is ever interrupted by extra days, the one specific day (the 7th day) disappears! [This is like saying a dog without a dog isn't a dog. If you think about this hard, you may gain insight into what Tom is saying. I couldn't get any clear meaning of his point, but hopefully you can.]

If Yahweh wanted to sanctify and bless the 8th, 15th, 22nd and 29th days of the month, He would need to say that He blessed and sanctified specific days of the month. [Now Tom is saying Yahuah "needs" to do something? Does he instruct Yahuah? "Isaiah 40:13-14 Who has meted out the Spirit of YHWH, or as His counsellor taught Him? With whom did He take counsel, and who instructed Him, and taught Him in the path of right-ruling? Who taught Him knowledge, and showed Him the way of understanding?" (It appears to me that Tom believes he can instruct Yahuah in the ways of right-ruling.) I really don't know how much of this can occur without Tom being in blasphemy.] In other words, the blessing and sanctifying would have been in the context multiple days of a lunar month, not one specific day of a 7 day week. Thus, the fact that there is one day called the Sabbath demonstrates that you can't interrupt the week. [Where does the scripture say a week cannot be interrupted?]

To further illustrate this, let's go back to the beginning and look at things from Adam's perspective.
Yahweh had just created the heavens and the earth in six days. The Sabbath was sanctified and just passed. [WHAT? Where and when did this happen, to give Adam perspective of it? RED ALERT: Sabbath is not mentioned in Genesis. Even more disturbing is the fact that there is no proof that the Sabbath was "passed" (enacted as law) in Genesis.] All was beautiful and perfect.

Now what?

The following day is obviously going to be a day for fulfilling Yahweh's command to work in the garden.

[Where is the command to work in the garden? Where is Yahuah's command to keep the Sabbath in Genesis at all? Are you catching this? This simply is NOT in scripture.]

If we were Adam, what would we do if six "evenings and mornings" go by? Obviously, we keep holy the seventh day, the one specific day that Yahweh commanded be kept holy. [I searched exhaustively, and I failed to find even ONE occurrence of Adam keeping or honoring the Sabbath. Can you, the reader, find an occurrence of Adam keeping, observing, or being commanded to keep the Sabbath? Can you find a command for Adam to "work in the garden?" It really shocks me how dangerous Tom's position is: Revelation 22:18 "For I witness to everyone hearing the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to them, Elohim shall add to him the plagues that are written in this book,"]

Then what? We have additional evenings and mornings coming so what do we do? The obvious choice is that we work six more and rest on the seventh day. The recurring seven day week cycle is born from the moment Yahweh rested on the seventh day and told man to do the same. [WHERE? Where in Genesis does Yahuah command Adam to "do the same?"] It is very obvious and not difficult to understand at all. [What is obvious to me is that Tom is saying things that do not appear in scripture.]

Now suppose Yahweh instituted the Lunar Sabbath at creation. After 3 weeks of following a recurring 7 day week with observing the one specific day that Yahweh called the Sabbath, six more "evenings and mornings" go by and what do we do? We rest again on one specific day, the seventh day.

Then what? This is where even Lunar Sabbatarians differ from one another. Some say, if we were Adam we would rest on the eighth day, [What scripture was that showing Adam keeping ANY Sabbath?] and then rest the ninth day also if the moon isn't in the crescent phase yet. But for what reason? This doesn't fit any pattern that Yahweh set forth in creation. We would no longer be keeping "the Sabbath" on that one specific day, the seventh day. To allow that pattern to be interrupted is to walk away from keeping the Sabbath on the one specific day that Yahweh made holy, the seventh day! [The real question is, How does one arrive at the seventh day, by what Yahuah gave to show appointed times, days, and years and months, or by a Gregorian/Vatican/Pagan calendar?]

Other Lunar Sabbatarians would say that Adam would have only needed to refrain from commerce and/or working for money on the eighth and ninth days. But in Adam's day, there wasn't anyone around to buy or sell to, and there certainly wasn't anyone to pay Adam for any work. In fact, with this understanding Adam could have resumed his tending of the garden of Eden on the day after the Sabbath and would continued his work in the garden for a total of 7 or 8 days, then rested on the ninth day. The fact that he could continue working in the garden for 7 or 8 days violates the pattern that Yahweh set forth in Genesis. The seventh day passes by and is ignored with this understanding of Sabbath keeping. [This is all conjecture, theory, and hypothesis by Tom, because Genesis gives NO account of Adam and the Sabbath.]

The truth is, Yahweh didn't rest two days and He didn't rest for three days. He didn't say to do a half-rest for one day or two days following the 4th Sabbath of the month. [Where is the scripture to support this claim? I fail to find ANY scripture that says Yahuah didn't rest for more than one day. I DO see where it says He rested on the seventh, but I fail to see any definition of how long the SEVENTH day was. (Was it 2 evenings and mornings? What about three? Doesn't say, does it? The other 6 do, why not the seventh? Hmmmm.]
This is a commandment of men. Yahweh made one specific day holy and one day only. [Really? I would venture to say that Leviticus 23 would readily show this to be a lie. What about the feasts? Are they not holy and set-apart?] He did no work for six days and rested on the seventh day [Is this a typo? "no work"] It is His pattern that we are supposed to be following when it comes to keeping the holy Sabbath, as He said here:

Exodus 20:11 For in six days Yahweh made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore Yahweh blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

It says "Yahweh blessed the seventh day and hallowed it." Notice it does not say "Elohim blessed the seventh day, and sometimes the eighth and ninth days are blessed and sanctified too, depending on whether or not the new moon has shown up yet."

There is only one day out of the week that Yahweh sanctified, and that is the seventh day of the week. There is no such thing as an eight day week or a nine day week. If there were, the pattern established at creation is thrown into confusion. A Sabbath could last not one day, but one, two or possibly three days--thereby causing the one day sanctification pattern to disappear. If one chooses to work for 7 or 8 days rather than rest on the extra days, it causes the seventh day sanctification pattern to disappear. [The base matter at issue here is "Choose you this day whom you will serve." Will you allow the Gregorian/Vatican calendar to dictate when your week starts, or will you follow the sign set forth in the heavens by Yahuah himself?]

In acknowledgement of this contradiction, some Lunar Sabbath observers have started referring to the leftover days at the end of the month as "non-days." In other words, those days at the end of the month aren't really days at all. They're just nothing. [Really? Where does Tom show this claim by a lunar Sabbatarian?]

Of course, this is all they really can say. [And obviously, it's all you can say, because I haven't seen any proof of a Lunar Sabbatarian claiming some of the things you say they claim.]

But we know from Genesis 1 that a day consists of an evening and a morning. [Remember, according to Tom, the Sabbath was commanded by Yahuah to Adam in Genesis also.] The days at the end of Yahweh's months are days with an evening and a morning, no matter how hard you try to ignore it. Two or three "evenings and mornings" go are going by, so they are indeed "days." We can't just hide our heads in the sand and pretend they don't exist so that we can continue to believe what we want to believe.

The truth is, the concept of a week extending to 8 or 9 days is foreign to scripture. In fact, it is a direct contradiction of scripture. In Hebrew, the number seven and the word translated "week" are both rooted in the same Hebrew root verb which simply means "seven." [Is it just me missing this, or have you, the reader found where Tom shows that a Lunar Sabbatarian claims that a week is 8 or 9 days? I cannot find it.]

The Strong's Lexicon defines "week" (#7620) as:
7620 shabuwa` shaw-boo'-ah or shabuan {shaw-boo'-ah}; also (feminine) shbu.ah {sheb-oo-aw'}; properly, passive participle of 7650 as a denominative of 7651; literal, sevened, i.e. a week (specifically, of years):--seven, week.

And the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament states:

Shabua - period of seven, a week, the Feast of Weeks. This term occurs twenty times in the OT, always indicating a period of seven. Indeed, the word obviously comes to us from sheba (q.v.) and could literally be translated always as "seven-period."

Notice that this reference says "Shabua" is derived from "Sheba." The word translated "Seven" all throughout the scriptures is "sheba."

7651 sheba` sheh'-bah or (masculine) shibrah {shib-aw'}; from 7650; a primitive cardinal number; seven (as the sacred full one); also (adverbially) seven times; by implication, a week; by extension, an indefinite number:--(+ by) seven(-fold),-s, (-teen, -teenth), -th, times). Compare 7658.
"Shabua" is just another form of the same word. "Sheba" is translated "seven" over 350 times in the scriptures.
Clearly the word "week" cannot be separated from the number seven. The entire reason a "week" is called a "shabua" is because it always contains seven days. This being the case, a week cannot be 8 or 9 days. [REPEAT: Is it just me missing this, or have you, the reader found where Tom shows that a Lunar Sabbatarian claims that a week is 8 or 9 days? I cannot find it.]

As we read in the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, the very word translated "week" literally means "seven-period." It would be a contradiction to say in Hebrew "an eight day week" because you would to say "an eight day seven-period." Just like a "dozen" always means twelve in our language, a "week" always means seven in Hebrew.
Thus, an 8 or 9 day week is totally foreign to the scriptures. To create one is to add to Yahweh's word. Of course, their solution is to not count those days, and call them "non-days" because that's all they can really say. Their pat answer is "those days aren't included in the count." How convenient! [Is it just me missing this, or have you, the reader found where Tom shows that a Lunar Sabbatarian claims that a "day" is a "non-day?" I cannot find it. This is akin to something being legal and illegal at the same time, which is a trick lawyers pull all the time.]

But scripture says that the opposite. Scripture says that an "Evening and morning" are one day. And one of the days they refer to as being a "non-day" is called a "day" in this verse:

Haggai 1:1-2 In the second year of King Darius, in the sixth month, on the first day <3117> of the month, the word of Yahweh came by Haggai the prophet to Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, and to Joshua the son of Jehozadak, the high priest, saying, 2 "Thus speaks Yahweh of hosts, saying: 'This people says, "The time has not come, the time that Yahweh's house should be built." ' "

With such logic, there are 1-2 days in a month where you aren't even living within the context of a week. On the 30th day of the month and the 1st day of the month, the week ceases to exist! The days are coming and going, but you need to pretend like they aren't there.

The truth is, if a week is interrupted by extra days, we are no longer keeping the Sabbath on "the seventh day." If we change the pattern that Yahweh set forth in creation, we are departing from Yahweh's example and keeping the Sabbath on some other day. The Sabbath would no longer be on "the seventh day."

[Leviticus 23:34-36 "Speak to the children of Yisra’ĕl, saying, ‘On the fifteenth day of this seventh month is the Festival of Booths for seven days to YHWH. On the first day is a set-apart gathering, you do no servile work. For seven days you bring an offering made by fire to YHWH. On the eighth day there shall be a set-apart gathering for you, and you shall bring an offering made by fire to YHWH. It is a closing festival, you do no servile work. " (here, there are other days that are not "work days, nor weekly Sabbath days.) Would Tom refer to these days as "non-days?"]


Lunar Sabbath keepers wait on the day after the crescent phase to restart the week every month. But if weeks are determined by moon phases, this would mean that Yahweh would have needed to create the earth, create the moon, put it in orbit and maybe even wait for a day after the crescent moon appears before starting the first week! [Here again, Tom presumes to instruct Yahuah. Please be aware of this dear reader.]

But the moon wasn't even made and given its place in the heavens until the 4th day:
Genesis 1:16-19 Then Elohim made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17 Elohim set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And Elohim saw that it was good. 19 So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

So there was no sun to even give light on the earth, and no moon to reflect that light on the earth (thereby creating the moon phases) until the 4th day of the week. If we were to believe that each week is determined by the moon phases, this would be yet another direct contradiction.

If Yahweh wanted to set a pattern of Lunar Sabbath keeping for us, and the pattern is to be found in His creation of the world, why would He not create the world in one lunar month, not resting every seventh day but resting on certain days of the month so that we have an accurate pattern of Sabbath keeping to go by? [Maybe Yahuah is being asked why He didn't confer with Tom before creating us?]

Of course, Yahweh could have created the heavens and the earth in an instant, but instead He set in motion the concept of a "week" so that we would follow His example in working six days and resting on the seventh. The Lunar Sabbath violates this pattern at the end of every month by doing physical labor six days and resting on the 7th, 8th and possibly 9th days -OR- doing physical labor 7 to 8 days and resting on the 9th day.

Leviticus 23:3 'Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of Yahweh in all your dwellings.

The most logical and clear choice here is to do just what Yahweh said. Work six days and rest on the seventh. This is the pattern given for us in the scriptures. [What is clear and logical here, is that this verse is in Leviticus 23. And that is where Yahuah sets forth his Moedim as set-apart gatherings. And Tom doesn't argue against using the moon to reckon ANY of them EXCEPT the Sabbath. Why?]

Yahweh never specified certain days of the month for His regular Sabbath, but a specific day of the month is given for each of His feast day Sabbaths. Does this not speak volumes?

Leviticus 23:4 'Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of Yahweh in all your dwellings. 4 These are the feasts of Yahweh, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at their appointed times. 5 'On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is Yahweh's Passover. 6 'And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to Yahweh; seven days you must eat unleavened bread. 7 'On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it. [Very revealing. How would Tom arrive at the 14th day of the month, save from the moon starting the month? Doesn't the moon reckon all of the "other" feasts? Why would Tom exclude the moon from reckoning the Sabbath?]

Notice also that Yahweh needed to inform us that the first day of the feast of Unleavened Bread, being the 15th day of the first month, is a day that "no customary work" is to be done. If indeed the 15th day of each month is already a regular Sabbath, why would He even need to inform us that it's a day of rest to begin with? [Some of the time, Tom says Yahuah needs to let us know, and then when Yahuah lets us know, Tom asks "why?" Truly confusing.]

The regular Sabbath is a memorial of the seven days of creation. The holy days scattered throughout the year are observed on certain days of the year as a memorial to other acts of Yahweh such as the anniversary of when the children of Israel went out of Egypt, etc.

But the Sabbath is given for us to remember the creation of the world and rest as Yahweh did. We need to do what He did and do all our work on six days, but rest on one specific day, the seventh day. The day that Yahweh made holy and commanded that we "Remember" is one specific day, the seventh day, and we are to "keep it holy." [What signifies the seventh day? The Moon, or the Gregorian/Vatican/Pagan calendar?]

[Luneee]

Reserved for a study of yom (day).

[Luneee]

Well, this thread is getting the hits, but no responses.

Hmmmm.

[Lambchop]

What can they really say ? I got to hand it to ya, Brother Jay, you have brought out some really excellent proofs, and you are 100% correct.
I could almost hear the sword swinging through the air as I read your replies.

[Watchman555]

Shalom Lambchop,

You said you could almost hear the sword swinging through the air. Maybe this is what you were hearing in the Spirit. But I don't think he (Larry) was using a sword, cause a sword would involve using Scriptures. Or at least some kind of witnesses to his claims. I would say it's more like an axe.

by Larry
posted 02-06-2008 10:15 PM
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I'm sure some folks believe I've been unnecessarily difficult with Greg. After all, Greg is not the enemy. The devil, our adversary, is the enemy, and he attacks, usually in subtle fashion, every righteous institution of YHWH. As we all know, he often uses his own "servants" to do the attacking.

Some of us understand that the institution of the weekly Sabbath is under attack by the enemy. Do we recognize an attack when we see it? Many do not. In fact, they may not understand that anything unusual is going on at all ... until it is too late.

The Apostle Shaul understood something that his fellow servants could not see. He knew that after his departing, grievous wolves would enter within the midst of his fellow believers, not sparing the flock. Within less than 100 years, virtually no professing Messianic believers would be found observing the weekly Sabbath. In fact, antagonism against anything "Jewish," except the Messiah Himself, led to the belief that the entire Torah had been "done away."

Just because we're in the modern 21st century doesn't mean we're immune from the attacks of the enemy. If Judaism has preserved intact the true weekly Sabbath, you can be certain he will do all he can to dissuade anyone he can from observing it. He will stop at nothing ... even if it means persuading us that the weekly Sabbath is on a different day ... or even if it means persuading us that the weekly Sabbath is determined in a different way.

This is where Greg is, folks. He does not believe the true weekly Sabbath falls on the day commonly known as "Saturday." Greg will not come out and say this publicly, possibly because he is doing all he can to retain posting privileges in this forum. Nevertheless, I challenge anyone here to ask Greg if he believes the weekly Sabbath falls each and every seven days on the day commonly known as Saturday. You have to be careful how you phrase your question, and pay close attention to see if Greg reformulates (rephrases) your question so as to give the answer he thinks you want to hear.

In my case, I asked Greg if he believes YHWH ordained continuously-repeating weekly Sabbaths.

When giving his answer, notice how Greg carefully omitted the words "continuously-repeating." This is because lunar sabbatarians agree that YHWH ordained a "cycle of sevens," but they don't like having to openly admit that this "cycle of sevens" is not "continuously-repeating." Their "cycle of sevens" is interrupted once each and every month, but it is a "cycle of sevens" to them nevertheless ... and a "cycle of 7's" which they believe was ordained by YHWH.

Therefore, with this explanation, hopefully you will understand why Greg had to leave out "continuously-repeating" when giving his answer. Here's the answer he gave me:

quote:YES I believe that Yahuah has instituted the cycle of 7's.

Many folks will look at Greg's answer and say, "See? He answered Larry's question! Why is Larry continuing to treat him as though he hasn't answered the question??"

Those folks simply need to pay a little closer attention to what's at stake here.

For one thing, we can reasonably deduce that Greg does not believe continuously-repeating weekly Sabbaths are or were blessed by YHWH.

The forum owner requires that those who post in this forum agree to certain standards before posting here. Here's one of those "standards":

Do you believe that "ALL scripture" (including the Torah/Law in Genesis-Malachi) is "profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness" (2Tim 3:16)?

NOTE: With this comes the belief that we should keep the law of Yahweh. This includes keeping the Sabbath on the 7th day of every week (commonly called "saturday"), observing Yahweh's feast days, and keeping His clean/unclean food commands.

Now it goes without saying that Greg does not agree that YHWH intends for His people to keep the Sabbath on the 7th day of every week (continuously-repeating), on the day commonly known as "Saturday." If Greg agreed with this statement, it is very plain that, by now, he would have stated, "YES, I believe YHWH ordained continuously-repeating weekly Sabbaths." In spite of Greg's obvious disagreement with the above qualification standard, he has chosen to openly post in this forum.

Just as there were "grievous wolves" entering within the midst of the flock soon after the Apostle Paul's departing, we have "grievous wolves" within our midst today, posing as servants of righteousness, but their hearts are actually far from the Father.

I try not to become involved in these negative discussions, but when I see an institution of YHWH under attack, I do feel obligated to speak out. All of us need to be very careful, because many of us can say that we have previously been victims of clever words, and oh, how we wish we could have seen through those clever words long before the light of truth was turned on in our minds. I see that same spirit working with those who cannot answer that they believe YHWH ordained continuously-repeating weekly Sabbaths (so instead they give deceptive answers), and so I will continue to strive to protect my heart and mind with the armour of YHWH, and I will continue to speak out when I see this type of spirit operating. Not only is the doctrine of lunar sabbaths deceptive, but so are the hearts of many who are convicted of this doctrine. I do believe some folks are innocently deceived, so I will stop short of labeling all lunar sabbatarians as being duplicitous.

Love in Messiah,
Larry

[Luneee]

I'm sure some folks believe I've been unnecessarily difficult with Greg. After all, Greg is not the enemy. The devil, our adversary, is the enemy, and he attacks, usually in subtle fashion, every righteous institution of YHWH. As we all know, he often uses his own "servants" to do the attacking.

Some of us understand that the institution of the weekly Sabbath is under attack by the enemy. Do we recognize an attack when we see it? Many do not. In fact, they may not understand that anything unusual is going on at all ... until it is too late.

Sure looks as if he is inferring you are a servant of hasatan. Didn't Yahushua get accused of being a servant of Ba'alzebub?

Rejoice brother.

Mat 10:25 “It is enough for the taught one to become like his teacher, and a servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beʽelzebul, how much more those of his household!
Mat 10:26 “Therefore do not fear them. For whatever is covered shall be revealed, and whatever is hidden shall be made known.
Mat 10:27 “What I say to you in the dark, speak in the light. And what you hear in the ear, proclaim on the house-tops.
Mat 10:28 “And do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the being. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both being and body in Gehenna.


Mat 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This one does not cast out demons except by Beʽelzebul, the ruler of the demons.â€

[Lambchop]

once again I hear: slash, slash, slash You are a really good sword fighter Bro, Jay. Truth preveils again.
If you ever do pick up an axe, let us know before hand, so we can all stand back. I don't want any of that rotten wood on me as you chop the tree down

[Luneee]

once again I hear: slash, slash, slash You are a really good sword fighter Bro, Jay. Truth preveils again.
If you ever do pick up an axe, let us know before hand, so we can all stand back. I don't want any of that rotten wood on me as you chop the tree down

I am only a servant and child of my Father, Yahuah.

Anything good I have belongs to Him, and I am merely beneficiary.



Shalom

Jay Vincent.

[Luneee]

I gave Larry notice of this thread, and opportunity to respond, and he declined, while slandering Greg.

Truth has no fear of open discussion.


John 3:19 And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light, for their works were wicked.

1Samuel 2:9 He guards the feet of His kind ones, but the wrong are silent in darkness, for man does not become mighty by power.

Jay Vincent.