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Are there no courageous men left? [Banned from EliYah.com]

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Luneee
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Are there no courageous men left? [Banned from EliYah.com]

Postby Luneee » 27 Jan 2008, 19:37

aborted.
Last edited by Luneee on 28 Jan 2008, 23:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Watchman555
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Postby Watchman555 » 27 Jan 2008, 20:22

Shalom Jay,

Just wanted to let you know that we totally understand what you are saying. We had a problem in the past with a local assembly that accused us of certain things, which were false accusations, we asked them to produce witnesses to their claims. They would not. We asked them to even go to another local assembly and have the matters brought out before a congregation, as per Scripture. No - didn't happen. It grieves me having seen what took place in my own situation. I do not believe that any of those who are banned from Tom's site were disfellowshipped according to Scripture. This grieves me also.

After our incident, I put together what I believe is a fair and Scriptural way to deal with this type of problem. We had it up on our web site for a while and there really wasn't any interest in this area. Because I believe some would consider it a hot-topic. We have it around here somewhere saved on a disc, we will try to find it and e-mail it to you.

If anyone has an interest in viewing this also we could post it here for all to view and possibly get it up and running as per its original intent. That is - to see Yahuah's laws observed and/or preserved. Of course, with this would be also the responsibility of a group of individuals to oversee and even render decisions according to Yahuah's right ruling by the leading and guiding of His Ruach.

In Yahusha's Name.

~Greg

chuckbaldwin
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Re: Are there no courageous men left? [Banned from EliYah.co

Postby chuckbaldwin » 27 Jan 2008, 21:25

Luneee wrote:This brother and I have an issue that needs to be resolved in a forum that Tom does not control as judge, jury, and executioner.

If anyone has the courage to assist in this, I would appreciate it.
I've been told that i might be a good intermediary, although i've never done it. Also, since i'm basically "neutral" on the lunar Sabbath subject, i might be less likely to favor one person over the other.

From the other person's message you posted, it looks like you simply disagree over the LS issue, but you sound like there's more to it. Are you unable to write to them for some reason? Let me know what would be involved, and if it won't take an immense amount of time, i'll try to help.
Chuck Baldwin
By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

Luneee
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Re: Are there no courageous men left? [Banned from EliYah.co

Postby Luneee » 27 Jan 2008, 21:33

aborted.
Last edited by Luneee on 28 Jan 2008, 23:29, edited 1 time in total.

JMSchattke
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Postby JMSchattke » 27 Jan 2008, 21:48

Well, Luneee/LunarModule/Jay Vincent, Answer these questions:

1) did you apologize for being disruptive last week?

2) did you actually tell anyone about lunar sabbaths in chat or PM?

Honestly, it's Tom's sandbox, he pays for it. If you want your own sandbox, pay for it yourself.
Wandering Kernel of Happiness

chuckbaldwin
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Re: Are there no courageous men left? [Banned from EliYah.co

Postby chuckbaldwin » 27 Jan 2008, 22:05

Luneee wrote:Chuck, my reason for posting the respondee's message is to show that they missed the point entirely. This is not an argument about Lunar Sabbath. This is an issue of Tom falsely accusing me of trying to lead others to Lunar Sabbath, absent facts to support that accusation.

I am confused on why I would write the person back that missed the point? Is there a way I can convince them to see the real issue?
Based on ONLY the information given, i would say that the FIRST thing to do according to Mt.18:15, would be to write him/her and explain the point that they missed. THEN, if there still needs to be further resolution, according to v16, call for a hearing with 1 or 2 more (which is what you're asking for now). Have you done the 1st step, or did i miss something? "Missing the point" means that they didn't understand something, which in this case shouldn't be too hard to explain. Like you said, it's NOT about "lunar Sabbaths" - now that WOULD be difficult.
This would require an open hearing, in a public setting, with several (3 or more) men who would be willing to judge facts, and not opinions.
If it does come to that, i'm afraid the logistics might prove too difficult, getting 3-4 people to travel to some distant city to meet. The "meeting" would of necessity have to be via email.
And, it would require an invitation to Tom to attend, which I believe would be ignored.
That makes sense, and he probably would ignore it.

So, make sure you have done STEP 1, then let me/us know what next.
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

Luneee
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Re: Are there no courageous men left? [Banned from EliYah.co

Postby Luneee » 27 Jan 2008, 22:50

aborted.
Last edited by Luneee on 28 Jan 2008, 23:30, edited 1 time in total.

Luneee
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Postby Luneee » 27 Jan 2008, 22:56

JMSchattke wrote:Well, Luneee/LunarModule/Jay Vincent, Answer these questions:

1) did you apologize for being disruptive last week?

2) did you actually tell anyone about lunar sabbaths in chat or PM?

Honestly, it's Tom's sandbox, he pays for it. If you want your own sandbox, pay for it yourself.


If you have proof of this (it's Tom's sandbox), I would encourage you to bring it forward. [who owns the internet?]

Re: your questions, I have no understanding of what you speak of on #1. Re: #2, I believe that I have only answered or asked questions. I have no knowledge that I have pursued anyone to teach anything.

Also, Re #1, Have you apologized for telling me to STFU? Have you explained to me yet how telling someone to STFU is following the Messiah?

Have you any scriptural support for calling me a fool?


Maybe we can address your false claims here, if anyone is agreeable to following the scriptural prescription.


Jay Vincent.

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Watchman555
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Postby Watchman555 » 27 Jan 2008, 23:49

JMSchattke wrote:Honestly, it's Tom's sandbox, he pays for it. If you want your own sandbox, pay for it yourself.


You're absolutely right here Jonathan, and that is one of the points I see in this case as well as what has happened to us. In all honesty, even if anyone would consider it "Tom's Forum" or it is not an "assembly", does that give not only Tom, but anyone an excuse to disregard what the Torah clearly says on matters such as these? Any way, where's the esteem to Yahuah in all of that?

We've heard this over and over: it's Tom's Forum, it's Tom's chat, it's not an assembly. Is either one of these a true statement? Yahuah said the earth is mine and the fullness thereof. So is it Tom's Forum? Yahusha said where two or more are gathered in My Name, there I will be in the midst of them. Now, at eliyah.com is there anybody gathering in His Name? If we keep the Torah should we not keep it in all aspects of our lives? Shouldn't the Torah be applied when disfellowshipping or I guess the proper word would be -banned- what's the difference?

That's why I would encourage all of us here not to let this blessing we receive turn into the battle field that takes place at other forums. They will know us by our fruits, right? Well, who are we?

If I might quote Brother Sha'ul~

1Cor. 6:1-11:
Should any of you, holding a matter against another, go to be judged before the unrighteous, and not before the set-apart ones? 2 Do you not know that the set-apart ones shall judge the world? And if the world is judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Do you not know that we shall judge messengers? How much more, matters of this life? 4 If then you truly have judgments of this life, do you appoint them as judges who are least esteemed by the assembly? 5 I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise one among you, not even one, who shall be able to judge between his brothers? 6 But brother against brother goes to be judged and that before unbelievers! 7 Already, then, there is a failure with you, that you have lawsuits among you. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? 8 But you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and that to your brothers! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the reign of Elohim? Do not be deceived. Neither those who whore, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor greedy of gain, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers shall inherit the reign of Elohim. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were set apart, but you were declared right in the Name of the Master Yahusha and by the Spirit of our Elohim.


In my experience there has been times to just let it go and there's times to pursue the matter. Either way, Yahuah's will be done.

~Greg

JMSchattke
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Postby JMSchattke » 28 Jan 2008, 05:55

If I have a place to meet, and someone comes in and is rude and obnoxious, I have the responsibility to eject them in order to keep things civil, polite and calm. If I ask someone to leave, and they do not, no matter what their reasons they are then trespassing.

Doing that sort of thing is not the same as having a brother "sin against you" - they sin against all by their rude behavior. If there is a personal instance of obnoxious behavior, then it should be forgiven, addressed in private first, and so on.

Luneee, I still haven't received anything like a private request to explain my actions. When I do, I shall gladly explain, apologize, or whatever else I feel is appropriate. I shall not address your concerns in public as a first step.

Since right now, all we see is your side of the story about you being banned, well, of course you'll seem right.
Wandering Kernel of Happiness

BrotherArnold
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Postby BrotherArnold » 28 Jan 2008, 12:52

Shalom All,

I can relate to all of your feelings because I am one of the first, if not the first, to get kicked out of Brother Tom’s sandbox for this subject. I believe that truth has no fear of open debate. I know they will make up excuses that they are not afraid of the lunar Sabbath doctrine, same as Sunday keepers are afraid of Saturday keepers and the traditional name keepers afraid of the Name YHWH keepers and the list goes on. He said that they would be afraid of you. It is because they cannot defend their doctrine and are not willing to change it because of tradition. There is no different between them and the Jehovah witnesses who will not take your literature, but it is to their own hurt. We must continue to pray for them while at the same time we continue to fight against their traditions. See www.lunarsabbath.info

I believe We Will Always Have Men like This Because the Apostle Paul wrote of some men that would not receive them and those that would he cast them out of the church/assembly but said he would deal with them.

Brother Arnold

Ps. I'm thinking about disfellowshiping Brother Tom unless he repents.
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...

Brother Arnold
See www.lunarsabbath.info

Luneee
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Postby Luneee » 28 Jan 2008, 13:12

aborted.
Last edited by Luneee on 28 Jan 2008, 23:30, edited 1 time in total.

eriqbenel
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Postby eriqbenel » 28 Jan 2008, 15:09

If I have a place to meet, and someone comes in and is rude and obnoxious, I have the responsibility to eject them in order to keep things civil, polite and calm. If I ask someone to leave, and they do not, no matter what their reasons they are then trespassing.


Well, no one has asked you tho leave this forum when you have been "rude" and "obnoxious", have they?

The reason is because this forum really does allow people (within reason) to express their opinions on a subject.


Luneee, I still haven't received anything like a private request to explain my actions. When I do, I shall gladly explain, apologize, or whatever else I feel is appropriate. I shall not address your concerns in public as a first step.


Actually, JM is right here. Two brothers should be able to privately settle their differences.

Since right now, all we see is your side of the story about you being banned, well, of course you'll seem right.


Lunee is right in a way. Tom banned all Lunar Sabbath believers, simple because we believe it! It had NOTHING to do with being "rude" or "obnoxious".

The fact, that Tom banned Lunee, is not about his behavior, it's about the fact that Tom discovered that Lunee believes the doctrine and is too much of a coward to tell him the truth as to why he banned him.

To Lunee, I will say this:

JM is also right about the fact that the website belongs to Tom. He does pay for it (or is beholden to those who contribute to it) and He has the right to invite whom he wishes. He doesn't own the "internet" but he does own that "site".

Still, that doesn't make him any less a coward. The fact that he is willing to have a public discussion about the "false" Lunar Sabbath and not allow anyone who believes the doctrine to participate is evidence that he has a fear of something.

There are many on that forum who would receive the truth of it, but will only be allowed to hear Tom's side. I wonder what would have happened if Messiah had kept His teachings "restricted" and "banned" anyone who opposed them?
Shalom in the name of YHWH,

Eriq

chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 28 Jan 2008, 22:07

Jay/Lunee,

Can we get back to the core of the subject and simplify, because i'm starting to get confused. Here's your original request as i see it, copied from your earlier post:
This brother and I have an issue that needs to be resolved in a forum that Tom does not control as judge, jury, and executioner.
First, WHO are the 2 parties involved, i.e. who is "this brother". Or are there 3 parties - it appears that JMSchattke is involved somehow. Or is JMS the "brother" you mentioned?

Second, what is the exact accusation against "this brother". i.e. Exactly what was his sin against you? And exatly what do you want as the outcome of this mediation?

Third, Is "this brother" willing to participate? If not, then there's nothing any of us can do. We aren't under YHWH's theocratic national government where we can stone him to death, even if his sin warrants it.

Fourth, you need at least 1 (preferably 2) more mediator(s) besides me. That's more than the Scriptural requirement, but would compensate for my inexperience and provide a "multitude of counsellors".

I believe the admonition to "let all things be done decently & in order" requires that the above 4 items to be answered.
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

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Watchman555
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Apology

Postby Watchman555 » 28 Jan 2008, 23:29

Watchman555 wrote:After our incident, I put together what I believe is a fair and Scriptural way to deal with this type of problem. We had it up on our web site for a while and there really wasn't any interest in this area. Because I believe some would consider it a hot-topic. We have it around here somewhere saved on a disc, we will try to find it and e-mail it to you.


Shalom,

I would that I could do so; however, apparently it has been lost. My wife thought she had it backed up and she didn't.

~Greg


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