Are there no courageous men left? [Banned from EliYah.com]

[Watchman555]

Shalom Everybody~

Some people are a trip. But anyway - the situation is what it is. Let us give Yahuah the esteem in all matters. I do have a matter of concern, and that is where our hearts are taken concerning people like Tom. I will be one of the first to say that Tom does have some wonderful studies. I believe he has helped people along a path to Yahuah. But yet, we all have areas to overcome. Let us examine our hearts in this matter. How do we feel about Tom? Or whoever? Passover is coming and it is Yahuah who creates a clean heart in us. But this clean heart that He will create in us can be defiled by our thoughts towards other individuals. I'm not accusing anybody but myself. Because I must guard my thoughts as I am responsible for that. As you also. Let us have compassion rather than retribution. Yahuah judges the thoughts and intents of the heart and vengeance is His. HalleluYah. So may Yahuah have compassion and leniency on all of us.

In Yahusha's Name,

~Greg

[chosen]

this is a reply to the private email i sent tom.

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> -----Original Message-----> From: mrshopperton@hotmail.com [mailto:mrshopperton@hotmail.com]> Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 10:30 AM> To: EliYah> Subject: Discussion Forum> > > Name.........: ellen> Location.....:> Found........: Select one> Title........:>

Message......:

why was my post deleted, tom? renae post things from shield of david all the time and those posts are not deleted. what i had posted was not in anyway related to the lunar sabbath. you really are not following torah. what are you afraid of? i don't expect you to answer.

Ellen

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Ellen,

Obviously we are dealing with a post where Greg and Dawn areattempting to communicate with the forum and admitted they believe in theLunar Sabbath. David isn't attempting to communicate on my forum, but G & D are. For you to post on their behalf isn't much different than them posting.

Unlike you and other false accusers/slanderers on Greg's forumclaim, I am following Torah and I'm not walking in fear. I don't fear "opendebate" when I have time to engage in "open debate." But I don't have to let the forum be a ranting roost and outreach mechanism for a false doctrine that causes confusion and leads people into Sabbath breaking. I also don't allow people to teach against the use of the sacred names, or teach that theTorah has been abolished. These are the forum guidelines. The fact that I don't allow those things has nothing to do with me being afraid ofChristians.

If someone came on the forum and taught that adultery was okay as long as a man wore a contraceptive, and people began believing it and started committing adultery against their wives, the fact that I might not allow a person to promote that doctrine would not mean that I'm walking in fear. I believe I would be walking in love for my fellow man. I believe Sabbath breaking to be even more serious offense than committing adultery because it has to do with loving Yahweh, the first and greatest commandment. My desire is that men would keep the commandments of Yahweh and I desire to teach men to do so. I am doing these things because I love Yahweh and want to keep His commandments, as well as teach men so. Loving Yahweh is not breaking Torah. Loving Yahweh is keeping Torah. Therefore, you are incorrectwhen you say I'm not following Torah. It is Lunar Sabbatarians that are not following Torah, and they desire to teach men so. Why should I have to pay the bill for them to do it?

Also, I again ask that you please remove our family from yourforwarding lists. Forwarding lists are a good way for spammers to get ouremail addresses, and some forwards will inevitably contain material that Iconsider to be inappropriate for our family. If we get another forward, I'll have to block your emails at the server level...and I don't necessarily want to do that.

Thanks, EliYah

[kickme]

I've got to agree with the watchman post, it is our own hearts we have to search to see any leaven in there, and remove any found. We do have to guard our tongues as to what we teach. In some ways I do not fault a person for 'sheilding' another from certain teachings, as controversy will drive even the most honorable seeker away. But for a controversy to exist, there has to be two perpetrators, beware lest any of us is the perpetrator that drives a seeker from Yahweh.
Is there room for debate? Certainly
Is there room for differences? Certainly
Is there a time for rebuke? Certainly
To each his own time and place. Personally, I'm beginning to think public forums where people come to study just might not be the proper time or place. This notion comes from both observation and personal experience. I've left more than one chat/forum where it became obvious that the content of the discussion became more that I'm right and anyone who disagrees with me is wrong. Brothers, there is ONE who is right, we best learn from him. And to this point, he has been tolerant and forgiving, yet we know that the purifying fire will someday burn the wood, hay and stubble.
I encourage us to build gold, silver and precious stones... not mansions of our own making that will be exposed for what they are.

[BrotherArnold]

Shalom All,

The Scripture teaches us to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I do not want anyone to censure what I choose to believe or not believe. What if someone had chose to protect Eliyah from the Sacred Name, the Oneness, etc. just because they thought it was false doctrine????

I don't think he would like that, no matter how well minded and good intentions the so-called protectors had. This is a matter of life-and-death and we need to be able to choose life.

YHWH gives us a choice to choose good or evil, right or wrong, true or false etc. and the best way to protect people that we care about is to teach them how to be good soldiers and not how to run and had things from them. The Jehovah witness and Tom and others who do this are not only hurting themselves, but others.

Brother Arnold

[Watchman555]

Shalom All~

I agree with both brothers kickeme and arnold. My question is:

What is the best way to teach? We all know we have many different understandings concerning different topics. In some of these topics there is no doubt that one belief or understanding is wrong and the other is either right or wrong also. A lot of these topics that we have disagreements on I would say are not salvational issues, even what day we keep the Sabbath. Some of you might say, "OH! That's terrible!" What I'm saying is the Scriptures teach that there are those who break commands and teach others to do the same they will be IN the reign of the heavens and they might be called the least. That could be any one of us. We are not being banned from Yahuah's reign. Some of us are going to be deceived (dsi/dri) we all desire to be taught directly from Yahuah by His Set-Apart Spirit, Spirit of Truth that is promised to lead us and guide us into all truth. This I believe. But what a quandary we have when we see others that have different beliefs or understandings. Tom says that those that keep the LR are sinners. Some of the LR say 7-day continual are sinners. I say this - each side is keeping a 7th day, and yes one of them is wrong or both of them are wrong. I choose to go with LR because I feel there is more Scriptural and historical evidence. So what. I'm keeping a 7th day according to what I understand. Others are keeping a 7th day according to what they understand. I am not in a position to condemn one or the other. I am only in a position to share my own understanding.

Personally, I would rather not be a teacher. Personally, I would rather have the witness and testimony of Yahusha. But consider teaching - is it wiser to teach or is it wiser to share your understanding? Scripture say be ready to give an answer for the hope that lies within you. I believe this is how we should share. In other words, I will share my understanding with you and I will try to explain to the best of my ability why I believe the way I do, and I would also like to hear other input. That is where I take this under consideration; which we all should do in whatever manner one chooses for himself. I could say something like, "I have to disagree because I see it this way or that way". Sometimes one or the other side just won't get it. Hey - that's okay. Its not your fault when you try to explain to the best of your ability your understanding, but sometimes we just have to leave it at that. I feel we could all use a lesson in choosing the best verbiage. Does anybody realize that to offend somebody is to push them away rather than draw them near? If we approach somebody with an attitude that is not taken the right way, we could inadvertently be a stumbling block to the truth we are trying to share. Seeds take time to germinate. If I might use Jonathan as an example...ok it might be a little on the extreme side. But how many of you are willing to listen to what Jonathan has to say just because of his attitude? Can we see the impact that our attitude can have on another person? I'm just as guilty as anyone else here. But I think this is the season in my walk where I'm being taught my job really isn't to convince anyone, it's to sow seeds, and it's to have compassion and understanding, and longsuffering because Yahuah has shown me how much He has had with me. Who am I to point my finger at someone else? Now don't take me wrong. If I feel someone is Scripturally in wrong in a matter such as disfellowship because it is clearly stated in Scripture how to deal with these areas then I will call someone out on it, but according to Scripture. First you go to your brother. There is a process there that we must follow.

The teacher is under greater judgment because if they teach the wrong thing then they will be held accountable for it. Not so much for those who are only sharing what they understand, because that is more like sowing seeds. That is giving someone the opportunity to hear what you have to say concerning any matter. I share what I understand, the person hears and either accepts or rejects my understanding. If it is truth, then seeds of truth are being sown, another waters, but Yahuah gives the increase.

~Greg

[eriqbenel]

Shalom All~

I agree with both brothers kickeme and arnold. My question is:

What is the best way to teach?

Shalom Brethren,

It is impossible to teach someone who isn't willing to listen. What do you do then?

I know personally that there are brothers who we have attempted to reach one on one in person, in the company of two or three witnesses and finally in public. I understand the process. But most of us are afraid to go all the way with the process. We are so afraid that we may hurt someone's feelings, we forget about the people headed to hell because we are protecting the feelings of the false teacher helping to send them there!

Since when did men become so sensitive? So sensitive that you can't tell a man "you're wrong" without him whining and pouting like a baby about it. I am all for Mathew's original thought of being respectful, but some of this need to have over-sensitive-syrupy-sweetness among men is a little nauseating. Especially when some of us KNOW that others are teaching false doctrine.

Where are the soldiers? The table tossers? The defenders of the faith? The roof tearers? The armour bearers? The John the Baptists?

Don't misunderstand me, I agree that "a gentle answer turns away wrath and harsh words stir up anger". But time is short, hell is enlarging and people are dying everyday without knowing the truth of YHWH. And we want to sit around the campfire of warm fuzzies, holding hands and roasting emotional marshmellows?!

I am mad at the devil! I am angry that people are being deceived and lives are being eternally lost. If we are still here, it means there are still some left to be helped. I aim to help them.

In love,

Eriq

[kickme]

Well, maybe some people tossed some tables your way.
OK, hear this then, maybe people will begin to hear you:
1. When you disagree, put scriptures up to show what you understand. Maybe even do highlights.
2. Make your points without resorting to putdowns, cutdowns, insults and name calling
3. Make sure your points are clear without belaboring the point

BTW, men were always sensitive. Look closely at Eliyah, he was a real man, but he had fears and doubts. Then look what Yahweh could do through him anyway. I can so relate

Brother, I might throw a table at you sometime, but know this, I'll feel a twinge of pain doing it because I've had tables thrown at me, and even if I know you deserve said table, I'll still empathize with the pain you'll feel because I've experienced it myself.

[Watchman555]

Shalom Brother Eriq and all~

I know exactly what you are talking about, because whether you believe it or not, I am one of those type of people. I've been known to be guided by the hand of Yahuah to a city-wide pastoral meeting that I had no idea that was going on. Like other situations I've been in Yahuah let me know, I do not have to do this. But my desire is to do this and serve him in truth. I went to this pastoral meeting and made it to the door about a minute before it was letting out. At that time, I opened the door and went in and spoke. These were not my words. They were words of rebuke. Of course, it was like being thrown in a den of lions. So Yahuah gives us the choice of whether we want to complete His calling. Yahuah willing, in the future, this will continue. I've been to christian churches and I'm not afraid to stand up and speak the truth, even if Yahuah insisted that I stop the services in their tracks. But here on this forum it is a little bit different. I do have a slightly different opinion of those who are imprisoned in the pews of the false christianity. But I do know this, every human that has ever lived is in Yahuah's hands. He is the giver and taker of life. He is the one able to kill both body and soul. I've grown to understand that there are different levels of resurrection and they are taught very clearly in the Feast days and the different types of ingatherings at different seasons. Not everyone is giong up in the first resurrection. Sha'ul himself would not be going up in the first resurrection if it was not for Yahusha Himself coming to him and convicting him. Here at this forum we are not dealing with people who don't know Yahusha or believe in Him; because it is through belief that we are saved, but as the Scriptures say - one third will be brought through the fire. We are in a process of being refined right now. Some will be continue to be refined later.

So what exactly is a salvational issue? We know by the study of Scripture as mentioned before those who broke commands and taught others so will be in the reign of the heavens. We also know that those who know the truth and did not obey it will be beaten with many stripes, those who did not know will be beaten with few stripes. So there is an accountability level. Yahuah has shown me and I hope He's shown others of us here that He is compassionate enough and kind enough to forgive those who are sinning; because even if we think we have the absolute truth and if we don't we will stand in judgment and we will be told of our shortcomings, I'm sure our response would be, "I repent, I'm sorry, please forgive me. I studied it, I thought it was the truth." In all actuality we are not saved or delivered by our Torah-keeping. It is our belief in Messiah. That is the bond that we all have here. I'm not trying to sound mushy, like I said, there is a time, place, and season for everything. If we speak the truth that's what we're supposed to do. If someone does not hear us, it is not our responsibility to MAKE them hear. Yahuah can take the blinders off of people any time He wants. That's what He did with us. Only some of us are still on the way and some of us might still be clinging to old understandings that have been ingrained. Yahuah knows how to deal with these things. He also showed us how to deal with these things. That is, spiritual warfare. We have to realize that each of us is going through a refining process AND an overcoming process. Of course, we're all not in the same place. If we're going to do spiritual warfare for people, we better be sure we're not finding ourselves contending with Elohim. Because then we have quite a problem. Yahuah is not going to allow us the tools to use against the enemy and then use them against Himself. I look at it this way - I will speak the truth as I understand it. But I will also understand that somewhat of what I have might not be truth. Haven't' we all tried to show somebody something that we found later to be untrue? Most of us have done this, and shame on me. Am I going to condemn myself for it? No, because through repentance I can be forgiven. So also can Yahuah forgive those who are in error now. They just might not be called at this time for the first resurrection.

1 Thess. 5:14
Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feeble-minded, support the weak, be patient toward all [men].

So when we warn the unruly we are supposed to do this with patience, because it does take time for seeds to grow. Sometimes it takes years. I'm looking at myself. Maybe a study on seed germination would help us understand. The Scriptures also say, if you have belief have it to yourself. If we believe what we are sharing is truth, this is what we believe. We don't have to worry about whether the person will believe or not. We are only responsible for sowing the seeds. Look at the types of soils we will be sowing seeds on. But I don't think the sower of the seed threw the seeds on the rocky soil and continued to try to beat the seed into the rock. Seeds are delicate and harsh words can crush seeds. I know it is urgent to get the truth out, but let us consider how what we believe to be truth is being expressed. I have found personally, that sharing understanding in a non-confrontational way goes a lot further than trying to beat it into somebody. We're responsible for sharing the truth, not for making people understand it.

I know if Yahuah sends me out to go to the christian churches or wherever that I will boldly stand up and speak the truth and leave it at that. If they hear they hear, if they don't they don't. If we speak the word of truth, the word of truth itself is all we are required to do. Let us pray that Yahuah has compassion and long-suffering upon us all as we should have towards others.

~Greg

[eriqbenel]

Well, maybe some people tossed some tables your way.
OK, hear this then, maybe people will begin to hear you:
1. When you disagree, put scriptures up to show what you understand. Maybe even do highlights.
2. Make your points without resorting to putdowns, cutdowns, insults and name calling
3. Make sure your points are clear without belaboring the point

You really need to get off that soap box toward me. My post are no longer than anyone else's and I will not be bogged down by your standard of how I should express myself.

If my points are unclear to you, maybe you should try asking a question. And finally, I have haven't put down or cut down anyone (except maybe Chuck) nor have I called anyone names. I have done just what Chuck and everybody else is doing, which is debate the ISSUE, not the person.

Now there are some who might not like the fact that I tell them the stuff they say is bogus. Although that may be taken as a personal insult, it is not. Do not mistake candor for disrespect.

Meanwhile, you express yourself in your post the way you want and I will express my point they way I want. And I reiterate what I said earlier, if you don't like reading my "long" post, don't. But don't play the forum police with me.

BTW, men were always sensitive. Look closely at Eliyah, he was a real man, but he had fears and doubts. Then look what Yahweh could do through him anyway. I can so relate

We are not talking about fears and doubts.

Brother, I might throw a table at you sometime, but know this, I'll feel a twinge of pain doing it because I've had tables thrown at me, and even if I know you deserve said table, I'll still empathize with the pain you'll feel because I've experienced it myself.

The "table toss" was a reference to Messiah at the temple when He threw out the vendors. It is about "righteous indignation", not personal attack. Defending the truth and faith. I never said anything about throwing a table "at" somebody.

[kickme]

The "table toss" was a reference to Messiah at the temple when He threw out the vendors. It is about "righteous indignation", not personal attack. Defending the truth and faith. I never said anything about throwing a table "at" somebody.

I know that, and it's what I was speaking of... but it's obvious to more than just me that you are exalted in your own opinion of yourself, therefore I have nothing further to say to you.

[eriqbenel]

The "table toss" was a reference to Messiah at the temple when He threw out the vendors. It is about "righteous indignation", not personal attack. Defending the truth and faith. I never said anything about throwing a table "at" somebody.

I know that, and it's what I was speaking of... but it's obvious to more than just me that you are exalted in your own opinion of yourself, therefore I have nothing further to say to you.

I'm sorry you fell that way. I really wish you could enlighten me as to exactly which words I posted that indicates my "exalted opinion of myself". Is it because I rejected your unfair advice on the number of words in my posts? What?

If you really believe I have been exhibiting that attitude, then I welcome you to show me how. If you are unable or unwilling to support your accusation, then the attitude could be yours and not mine. Seriously, what did I do to you?

[kickme]

ask chuck, ask t-w, ask Arnold, ask watchman555, ask princessyisraneli

[eriqbenel]

ask chuck, ask t-w, ask Arnold, ask watchman555, ask princessyisraneli

I talk to Arnold everyday friend. Princessyisraneli and I BOTH exchanged "tones" and we BOTH admitted to such and reconciled. What does that have to do with you?

Watchman hasn't said anything to me personally, except to commend Cheri and I for reconciling. And Chuck has given just as good as he gets for the last two years I have been debating him. For every insult Chuck can accuse me of, I have one of his to counter it.

I don't even know who T-W is, and I certainly don't remember any beef with him.

So I'm asking YOU, again, what does any of that have to do with you? And what did I do to you?

[chuckbaldwin]

ask chuck, ask t-w, ask Arnold, ask watchman555, ask princessyisraneli

And Chuck has given just as good as he gets for the last two years I have been debating him. For every insult Chuck can accuse me of, I have one of his to counter it.

Also,

I really wish you could enlighten me as to exactly which words I posted that indicates my "exalted opinion of myself".

The 2 quotes by Eriq above are answered by his quote below, plus my response to it. First, the matter of his exalted opinion...

Chuck and Cheri have started a campaign against my position on another thread and I really don't wish to dignify them with a response.. Matthew 7:6.

Mt.7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Here, Eriq equates his words to "holy" and "pearls". I would consider that an "exalted opinion". Here was my response:

If you're so insecure in your position that you won't dignify me with a response, that's fine with me, because experience has shown that nearly ALL of your responses to me are anything BUT "dignified" as evidenced by your demeaning ref to Mt.7:6.

Now Eriq says that i "countered" all of his insults. Well, countering him with an "insecure position" (which i admit was a "jab") and "undignified responses" is mild compared to his implication via Mt.7:6 that Cheri and i are "dogs" and "swine", and not even worthy to receive his "holy pearls". Here's another...

... you can't tell a man "you're wrong" without him whining and pouting like a baby about it.

I only suggested that since another's "wrong-ness" is only his OPINION, he might express it in a more tactful way. He can call it "whining" if he likes, but the "pouting like a baby" is a bit much. How about his "whining & pouting" about Cheri & I "starting a campaign against his position" (which wasn't even true).

I don't even know who T-W is, and I certainly don't remember any beef with him.

T-W (Torahwoman) is a "her" not a "him".

[eriqbenel]

Chuck and Cheri have started a campaign against my position on another thread and I really don't wish to dignify them with a response.. Matthew 7:6.

Mt.7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Here, Eriq equates his words to "holy" and "pearls". I would consider that an "exalted opinion". Here was my response:

Problem one:

I wasn't asking you, Chuck. As I said, your own behavior (which I will post below) gives you zero credibility to accuse me of anything.

Problem two:

What you did was put words in my mouth and thoughts in my head which you have NO RIGHT to do. What I did was refrain to compare what SCRIPTURE says (not my words) to what you were saying.

Problem 3:

Did you actually read the Scripture, or did you just quote it to try and score a point? Messiah said:

"Do not give what is holy to the dogs..."

How can somebody give what they do not have???? Evidently, we are capable of having that which is "holy".

"...neither cast YOUR pearl before swine..."

It would make no sense to give this instruction if we were incapable of possessing "holy pearls"! Messiah called it "YOUR" pearls, not YHWH's. But if one agrees with YHWH, they DO possess it.

It was not my intention to call you or Cheri a dog or swine, this is a metaphor regarding someone's refusal to hear the truth. It is MESSIAH's metaphor, not mine.

If you're so insecure in your position that you won't dignify me with a response, that's fine with me, because experience has shown that nearly ALL of your responses to me are anything BUT "dignified" as evidenced by your demeaning ref to Mt.7:6.

Now Eriq says that i "countered" all of his insults. Well, countering him with an "insecure position" (which i admit was a "jab") and "undignified responses" is mild compared to his implication via Mt.7:6 that Cheri and i are "dogs" and "swine", and not even worthy to receive his "holy pearls".

The Scripture uses the metaphor, not me. Why do you act like I wrote the words? There is a point to the metaphor, it is YOUR insecurity that caused you to apply it personally.

Here's another...

... you can't tell a man "you're wrong" without him whining and pouting like a baby about it.

I only suggested that since another's "wrong-ness" is only his OPINION, he might express it in a more tactful way. He can call it "whining" if he likes, but the "pouting like a baby" is a bit much. How about his "whining & pouting" about Cheri & I "starting a campaign against his position" (which wasn't even true).

But isn't that just your opinion? Do you really believe your "tact" was better than mine? You admitted to a "jab" and then proceed to criticize me? Now who's insecure?

Chuck, you trying to use this is only proving my point...

I don't even know who T-W is, and I certainly don't remember any beef with him.

T-W (Torahwoman) is a "her" not a "him".

[/quote]

Sorry TW, I didn't know who he was talking about.