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eriqbenel
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Re: Scriptural quote, please

Postby eriqbenel » 11 Mar 2008, 19:34

kathybyers2000 wrote:Please do share with all of us here the scriptural example of a righteous man, ANY righteous man laughing at another man who has just confessed his own error. As a berean you will find that there is no use of the word ridicule in the scriptures. The first word that comes to my attention as properly defining ridicule is mock, the next scorn. Mocking and scorning others is not the way of Yahushua. I am sorry that you have been lead to believe such.


The Scriptures specifically say that Eliyah "mocked" the prophets of Baal.

You are really starting to take what I say way out of context and I don't wish to argue with you... Pray, meditate, do whatever you want, I told you that I agree with some of what you said and I disagree with some. So be it. If you are upset because I don't "receive" your message than I don't know how to help you, sister. I don't agree with everything you said. I have told you why. This IS a matter of opinion whereas some things aren't. You have your opinion, I have mine.

Thank you for your comments.

Shalom

kathybyers2000
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So be it

Postby kathybyers2000 » 11 Mar 2008, 20:47

Thank you for considering my words and I will definitely pray and trust in the heavenly Father to work His will in each of our lives.

shalom,

Kathy

Luneee
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Postby Luneee » 16 Mar 2008, 16:41

Eriq,

This could have been handled much more graciously, in my opinion.

Proverbs 15:1 A soft answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up displeasure.

Shalom,

Jay Vincent.

eriqbenel
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Postby eriqbenel » 16 Mar 2008, 23:22

Luneee wrote:Eriq,

This could have been handled much more graciously, in my opinion.

Proverbs 15:1 A soft answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up displeasure.

Shalom,

Jay Vincent.


This was several days ago. I've kinda moved on from it, but since you brought it up...

Please be more specific, Jay. What are you referring to?
Shalom in the name of YHWH,

Eriq

Luneee
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Postby Luneee » 17 Mar 2008, 04:17

eriqbenel wrote:
Luneee wrote:Eriq,

This could have been handled much more graciously, in my opinion.

Proverbs 15:1 A soft answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up displeasure.

Shalom,

Jay Vincent.


This was several days ago. I've kinda moved on from it, but since you brought it up...

Please be more specific, Jay. What are you referring to?


Your original LOL.

What did it accomplish?

Shalom,

Jay Vincent.

eriqbenel
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Postby eriqbenel » 17 Mar 2008, 14:36

Luneee wrote:
eriqbenel wrote:
Luneee wrote:Eriq,

This could have been handled much more graciously, in my opinion.

Proverbs 15:1 A soft answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up displeasure.

Shalom,

Jay Vincent.


This was several days ago. I've kinda moved on from it, but since you brought it up...

Please be more specific, Jay. What are you referring to?


Your original LOL.

What did it accomplish?

Shalom,

Jay Vincent.



I really wasn't trying to accomplish anything (except maybe to expose the contradiction in logic) I just thought it was kinda funny. Perhaps someone will pause and contemplate the Scriptural premise for "casting lots" before they follow the flawed advice.

Could I have been more "gracious" about it? Perhaps. I just thought it was humorous.
Shalom in the name of YHWH,



Eriq

LittleKangaDrinkingWine
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casting Lots

Postby LittleKangaDrinkingWine » 18 Mar 2008, 23:10

Eric,

There are many who cast lots for truth on a matter. The scriptures are very grey in many areas and judgments on what to do and how to do it are best answered by YHWH Himself. Proverbs 18:18 and 16;33 are very clear. Casting lots keeps bullies (the mighty) like you apart and helps stop division. And yes, I openly call you a bully and there are few that disagree with me.

Just curious, do you put Troy Miller in the same catagory as you put me? Troy cast lots for truth every week as we wade through some of the more divisive subjects. Troy cast the lot asking if this coming New Moon is a one or two day New moon. We have been at odds (he and I) on many subjects. We come together, cast the lot on the subject as the scripture says, and there is no longer any division between us.

It's a no brainer.

There are many who believe this to be a very effective spiritual tool for stoping division and learning truth, onloy after much study on a subject.

you can poo-poo it if you want, but the scripture is clear. Casting lots is truth and not to be taken lightly as you have done on this thread and others as well. One day, you just may eat such words.

Kanga

kickme
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Postby kickme » 18 Mar 2008, 23:49

I'm not that smart, but I can see why the kanga dude cast lots, basically he was asking in advance for human planning what date the new moon would be. I'm not sure why mocking was necessary to expose anything. After all, a new moon can't be seen until it is seen, and this was to help in planning an event, kinda hard to do on a moment's notice....

As far as mocking, Eliyah mocked the prophets of ba`al, not a prophet of Yahweh who did things a little bit differently than he did.....
I'm not sure I want to mock someone who is on the same path as I but using a different stride.

eriqbenel
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Re: casting Lots

Postby eriqbenel » 19 Mar 2008, 00:52

LittleKangaDrinkingWine wrote:Eric,

There are many who cast lots for truth on a matter. The scriptures are very grey in many areas and judgments on what to do and how to do it are best answered by YHWH Himself. Proverbs 18:18 and 16;33 are very clear. Casting lots keeps bullies (the mighty) like you apart and helps stop division. And yes, I openly call you a bully and there are few that disagree with me.

Doesn't bother me in the slightest, Joey.

11:12 And from the days of Yochanon the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.


Proverbs IS very clear, too bad you don't see it for what it really says. We spelled out before how you were misinterpreting it.

Just curious, do you put Troy Miller in the same catagory as you put me? Troy cast lots for truth every week as we wade through some of the more divisive subjects. Troy cast the lot asking if this coming New Moon is a one or two day New moon. We have been at odds (he and I) on many subjects. We come together, cast the lot on the subject as the scripture says, and there is no longer any division between us.

It's a no brainer.

Yes what you are doing is a "no brainer". It would be better if you guys were to use your brains and follow the Scriptures. If you aren't sure about a subject, you might find safety in a multitude of counsel, i.e., ask somebody. Matthew is extremely gifted in Scriptural knowledge and understanding and he has a very kind and loving way of expalining things to those willing to listen.

Your method of "unifying" yourselves and discovering truth is not YHWH's method. I would encourage you to follow YHWH's method:

Ephesians
4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of the Messiah:
4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of YHWH , unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Messiah:
4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;


This is YHWH's plan for education and unification, not "casting lots". So while your motives may be sincere, they are sincerely amiss of the plan of YHWH per the Scriptures.


There are many who believe this to be a very effective spiritual tool for stoping division and learning truth, onloy after much study on a subject.

you can poo-poo it if you want, but the scripture is clear. Casting lots is truth and not to be taken lightly as you have done on this thread and others as well. One day, you just may eat such words.

Kanga


Casting lots in the correct context is truth, you and your cohorts use it erroneously. We are united by the Scriptures, not by a game of chance.. I wonder how our group of free thinkers are able to unite without casting lots? We read and study the Scritures together, that's how.

I have no problem eating my words, but if you keep twisting Scripture and spreading false doctrine, you will "have weeping and nashing of teeth".
Shalom in the name of YHWH,



Eriq

eriqbenel
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Postby eriqbenel » 19 Mar 2008, 01:15

kickme wrote:
I'm not that smart, but I can see why the kanga dude cast lots, basically he was asking in advance for human planning what date the new moon would be. I'm not sure why mocking was necessary to expose anything. After all, a new moon can't be seen until it is seen, and this was to help in planning an event, kinda hard to do on a moment's notice....


It is obvious from this statement that you don't really know what the New Moon is. Joey does (at least he should). It is not something that needs to be "seen". Brother Arnold has an excellent study on the New Moon on his web site. So does Matthew.

Troy Miller has even given an excellent Scriptural perspective of what the New Moon is, I have no idea why he would need to cast lots regarding it. That is a bit surprising.

All anyone has to do is learn the astronomical pattern and it is as easy to calculate as reading a watch or calendar. If the news can forcast a storm or the temperature 5, 6, and 7 days in advance, surely we can learn know when the New Moon is.

The reason you don't understand the need for exposing the error is because you don't understand what the error is.

As far as mocking, Eliyah mocked the prophets of ba`al, not a prophet of Yahweh who did things a little bit differently than he did.....
I'm not sure I want to mock someone who is on the same path as I but using a different stride.


Joey is no "prophet" of YHWH first of all. And second, the "path and "stride" we take cannot be of our own choosing, we have to approach YHWH His way, not our own way. It would be different if He didn't give us the way in Scripture, but He did, and casting lots is not it. It's okay if you want to defend Joey's teaching, but do it with Scripture, not with opinion and philosophy. If you can't present a Scriptural objection, then don't contribute to bad doctrine just because you don't like me.

I mean no disrespect, it just seemed like you were trying to comfort Joey because you felt I was being too hard on him. Even if I was, that doesn't mean that Joey is Scripturraly accurate. That's all I'm saying.
Shalom in the name of YHWH,



Eriq

ErichMatthewJanzen
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Postby ErichMatthewJanzen » 19 Mar 2008, 09:28

Hi, Everyone,

I just want to go "on the record" in saying that I do not agree with the practice of casting lots for doctrinal matters. I believe the passages of Proverbs 18:18 and 16:33, and we see many instances of people casting lots in Scripture on matters of non-essentiality. One example is in Acts 1 where both Joseph and Matthias were qualified to fulfill the place of Judas Iscariot. The Apostles cast lots to see which of the two men would be numbered among the 11 apostles - the lot fell on Matthias.

Concerning doctrine, the casting of lots should not be done. Acts 17:11 says the Bereans examined the Scriptures to see if Paul was correct in his teaching about the Messiah. Nowhere do we ever find a case in Scripture where anyone cast lots over a disagreement in doctrine. Furthermore I believe that last year I received an email where someone cast lots over which new moon to take for the new year, and they said the lot fell on the new moon nearest the spring equinox - I have the email somewhere I think. This is a problem because as we all should know some Hebrew months contain 30 days and in such a case you would have two new moons, each 15 days away from the equinox. Also, the ancients could determine the day of the equinox, but to my knowledge it could not be done in advance. In other words they had to wait for the equinox to occur first, and then they were able to take the next new moon as the 1st moon of the revolution, turning, or year.

Also, this false method of casting lots on doctrine could lead to endless confusion. For instance, what if someone decides to cast lots on keeping the Sabbath? In other words there are people who believe you should keep the Sabbath and others who believe it's done away with. Are we really going to cast lots and follow the lot if it says we shouldn't keep the Sabbath today? Or how about on eating unclean verses clean? The list could go on and on.

What we need to do is find a foundation in Scripture, and determine everything by this plumbline. There is going to be divisions, disagreements, discussions, debates, etc for it is through these that they who are approved are made manifest (1 Cor. 11:17-19).

In love,
Matthew Janzen

LittleKangaDrinkingWine
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Postby LittleKangaDrinkingWine » 21 Mar 2008, 02:52

I have made the case many times before that we are not living in the same time, nor under the same languages that the scriptures were written under. This fact combined with the obvious deceptions that have taken place down through time, that we are forced to deal with, leaves us at a disadvatage when it comes to knowing many of the details of doctrine.

Thus the be a barean and search the scriptures to see if these things are so, doesn't fit totally. Yes, we should be a barean and do all we can to search for truth, but there comes a time when we are simply up against it and the deceptions are so great, that we can find ourselves left to wonder what is really truth.

Eric would have each one of us to believe that we can find all the answers in the scriptures. Fine. I used to think like him, but in time, after enough humbling experiences in my spiritual life, I come to see that, no YHWH doesn't put all the answers in the pages of the bible or He doesn't allow us to see some of those answers, if they are there.

The truth is that YHWH reveals truth a little at a time and some times it take two people willing to say, "I give up, I'm willing to admit if I'm wrong and change, just show me, Father". It is then that YHWH will make clear His answer to our question and one of those methods is via the lot.

Those that say the lot can not be used to answer points of doctrine have not given much thought to the fact that there has not ever been a period of time like this one. Never has there been so much deception and the loss of biblical language truths. the fact that there is not an example of anyone casting lots for truth in the bible doesn't hold any water either, cause instruction given in a biblical language, such as Greek or Hebrew to people who understood Greek and Hebrew doesn't need much explanation, thus there is no need to question via the lot.

But the example of the lot being a form of the urim and thummin is clear. It is YHWH's way to pronounce judgment on a given matter when two people disagree.

At the end of the day, I would much rather stand on what YHWH promises to answer (Prov. 16:33) than fight it out with my brother and be divided. As far as how it is that Eric's congregation gets along without casting lots, it is my opinion that that congregation has a lot of sheep and a very strong leader that basically stands ready to lead them into what he believes is true and the sheep want it that way. And many congregations are that way. No problem. It's a governmental thing, not a unity because of truth thing. No one, at this time, has all the truth.......That much I would stake my life upon.

Kanga Dude

eriqbenel
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Postby eriqbenel » 21 Mar 2008, 19:19

LittleKangaDrinkingWine wrote:I have made the case many times before that we are not living in the same time, nor under the same languages that the scriptures were written under. This fact combined with the obvious deceptions that have taken place down through time, that we are forced to deal with, leaves us at a disadvatage when it comes to knowing many of the details of doctrine.


If there is a way to know what the deception is, then there is a way to know the truth. Otherwise, we would be deceived and not know it!

How do you know that there are lies and deception unless you know what the truth is? Also, in order to call something a lie or deception, you must be able to substantiate that claim with some valid evidence. No intelligent person is going to absorb evidence you claim is authentic "by the spirit" only. The Spirit never says anything that can't be backed up.

Thus the be a barean and search the scriptures to see if these things are so, doesn't fit totally. Yes, we should be a barean and do all we can to search for truth, but there comes a time when we are simply up against it and the deceptions are so great, that we can find ourselves left to wonder what is really truth.


This is correct. Except, you are still omitting the fact that we have no way of knowing that we are deceived unless we can pinpoint that deception against the truth.

The act of discovering the truth or where the deceptions are takes some effort. It takes some learning. It takes some practice, skill and maturity. And yes, it takes the Spirit. But the Spirit only leads us to what is ALREADY here. There is nothing new. We can be lead by the spirit to uncover that which has been buried beneath a hill of lies. This is done with diligence, facts and Scripture. No by some cosmic, mystical, miraculous chance of "lots" or visions in the night!


Eric would have each one of us to believe that we can find all the answers in the scriptures. Fine. I used to think like him, but in time, after enough humbling experiences in my spiritual life, I come to see that, no YHWH doesn't put all the answers in the pages of the bible or He doesn't allow us to see some of those answers, if they are there.


Eric wouldn't have you do anything. YHWH and Messiah say the truth is found in His Word. Now unless Joey can produce VALID, substantiated evidence, that His Word isn't trustworthy, then what else do we have to go on? The Word of JOEY?

Joey has also yet to answer this question; Which "part" or "parts" of YHWH's word is trustworthy and which isn't?

He has no real answer. You can't make it up and decide as you go. If you are going to cry "error" or "false", you must be able to support that claim.

I believe we can do the research and find where the translational errors and pagan influences are. Once this is done, we can make the adjustment, discern the true intent and move on! No need to get stuck in a spiraling trap of confusion and whirlwind of false doctrines...

The truth is that YHWH reveals truth a little at a time and some times it take two people willing to say, "I give up, I'm willing to admit if I'm wrong and change, just show me, Father". It is then that YHWH will make clear His answer to our question and one of those methods is via the lot.


YHWH has revealed all of the truth we need to have from now until the Kingdom! Sometimes we have to LEARN "a little at a time". We can't take it all in at once. Especially when the world we live in is so full of chaos. BUT the truth we need IS here, we just have to dig it out with diligence.

If you are having trouble "digging" or lack the skills necessary, etc.. THEN you can say "I give up... show me Father". And He will. HOWEVER, %99.999 of the time, that answer is going to come through His "gifts" to the Assembly... Apostles, Prophetes, Evangelist, Pastor-Teachers. This is specifically what they are for!

Maybe you are not one of those gifts. That's okay. We all have our roles in the body. But if you are unwilling to listen to them, then you are unwilling to obey YHWH and you will be deceived.

Those that say the lot can not be used to answer points of doctrine have not given much thought to the fact that there has not ever been a period of time like this one. Never has there been so much deception and the loss of biblical language truths.


It doesn't matter what the times are like because, guess what?.... YHWH DOES NOT CHANGE! And for Joey to claim that these times are so overwhelmingly different than times past is irrelevant to the instructions of YHWH. We are given those instructions to preserve us through the worse times, not to be discarded and replaced with easier, more convenient instructions!

In ancient times, and pre-ancient times, YHWH performed great and mighty miraculous wonders over all the earth to establish Himself and His truth in a people to be passed throughout the generations. Joey would have us to believe that this was all for nought and that Satan has won the battle!

No way! YHWH has preserved His truth and His Word through His people and His plan and He has ordained the roles of some who are charged with keeping it alive and continuing to spread it. Ephesians.

If Joey believes that the times are so monumentally worse than times past (he may be right), and YHWH was willing to establish His truth through the lies THEN, what makes you think we can't know it now? NOW is when we need to know it the most, when times are worse!

The fact that there is not an example of anyone casting lots for truth in the bible doesn't hold any water either, cause instruction given in a biblical language, such as Greek or Hebrew to people who understood Greek and Hebrew doesn't need much explanation, thus there is no need to question via the lot.


That makes no sense at all. What Joey is insinuating is that because we speak English, and the instruction were written to Greeks and Hebrews, we can't really know what the real instructions are. Mule Fritters!

First of all, how does Joey know that the "deception" and the "language barrier" problems aren't in the very Scriptures he uses to cast lots????

Second, Joey is definitely not giving YHWH enough credit. Did YHWH not know when He gave these instructions, that there would be people of different languages and cultures thousands of years later? Of course He did!

Does 1, 2, 5, or 10 thousand years mean anything to YHWH? No. His word "stands" forever. He can preserve it forever. We can know it forever.

But the example of the lot being a form of the urim and thummin is clear. It is YHWH's way to pronounce judgment on a given matter when two people disagree.


1. You do NOT have a "Urim" or a "Thummin". If I were a betting man, I would bet the farm you can't even provide a "clear" explanation as to what a "Urim" and "Thummin" is!

2.This was for the preist, who acted as "judges" in many cases. It was NOT used to decide a matter in which YHWH had already mandated, whether anyone disagreed or not. This was used to decided matters that are not Torah related.

At the end of the day, I would much rather stand on what YHWH promises to answer (Prov. 16:33) than fight it out with my brother and be divided.


It is NOT the "lack of lots" that causes division. Those who oppose what YHWH has already established as truth WILL cause division.

Lot casting may have a place, but it is certainly not to decide what truth is or isn't. Provebs 16:33 does not promise to answer Torah matters by lot.

As far as how it is that Eric's congregation gets along without casting lots, it is my opinion that that congregation has a lot of sheep and a very strong leader that basically stands ready to lead them into what he believes is true and the sheep want it that way. And many congregations are that way. No problem. It's a governmental thing, not a unity because of truth thing.


It is the specified will of YHWH and gift to the assembly to have "Pastors". This is a YHWH established ordainance and for Joey to characterize it like we are a bunch or mindless, gullible, sermon slurpers, is offensive to us and to YHWH.

Our Pastor, Matthew Janzen, and ourselves, study hard, with diligence, determination and love for the Word. We sometime s disagree, vehemently, but we always allow the Word and love to keep us bound together and rebound us from error!

So, in our assembly, it is Scripture that keeps is unified. Joey and his cohorts are unified by "lot casting". I ask all, which assembly would you rather be a part of?

No one, at this time, has all the truth.......That much I would stake my life upon.

Kanga Dude


We don't have to have it ALL!!! We just have to be "pressing toward the mark". It is a "high calling" because it requires diligence, and patience and maturity and endurance. Joey has reduced it to a "lotto". Shame on him and all who follow this error. It is a slap in the face of truth and faith. YHWH does NOT honor it.
Shalom in the name of YHWH,



Eriq


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