LittleKangaDrinkingWine wrote:I have made the case many times before that we are not living in the same time, nor under the same languages that the scriptures were written under. This fact combined with the obvious deceptions that have taken place down through time, that we are forced to deal with, leaves us at a disadvatage when it comes to knowing many of the details of doctrine.
If there is a way to know what the deception is, then there is a way to know the truth. Otherwise, we would be deceived and not know it!
How do you know that there are lies and deception unless you know what the truth is? Also, in order to call something a lie or deception, you must be able to substantiate that claim with some valid
evidence. No intelligent person is going to absorb evidence you claim is authentic "by the spirit" only. The Spirit never says anything that can't be backed up.
Thus the be a barean and search the scriptures to see if these things are so, doesn't fit totally. Yes, we should be a barean and do all we can to search for truth, but there comes a time when we are simply up against it and the deceptions are so great, that we can find ourselves left to wonder what is really truth.
This is correct. Except, you are still omitting the fact that we have no way of knowing that we are deceived unless we can pinpoint that deception against the truth.
The act of discovering the truth or where the deceptions are takes some effort. It takes some learning. It takes some practice, skill and maturity. And yes, it takes the Spirit. But the Spirit only leads us to what is ALREADY here. There is nothing new. We can be lead by the spirit to uncover that which has been buried beneath a hill of lies. This is done with diligence, facts and Scripture. No by some cosmic, mystical, miraculous chance of "lots" or visions in the night!
Eric would have each one of us to believe that we can find all the answers in the scriptures. Fine. I used to think like him, but in time, after enough humbling experiences in my spiritual life, I come to see that, no YHWH doesn't put all the answers in the pages of the bible or He doesn't allow us to see some of those answers, if they are there.
Eric wouldn't have you do anything. YHWH
and Messiah say the truth is found in His Word. Now unless Joey can produce VALID, substantiated evidence, that His Word isn't trustworthy, then what else do we have to go on? The Word of JOEY?
Joey has also yet to answer this question; Which "part" or "parts" of YHWH's word is trustworthy and which isn't?
He has no real answer. You can't make it up and decide as you go. If you are going to cry "error" or "false", you must be able to support that claim.
I believe we can do the research and find where the translational errors and pagan influences are. Once this is done, we can make the adjustment, discern the true intent and move on! No need to get stuck in a spiraling trap of confusion and whirlwind of false doctrines...
The truth is that YHWH reveals truth a little at a time and some times it take two people willing to say, "I give up, I'm willing to admit if I'm wrong and change, just show me, Father". It is then that YHWH will make clear His answer to our question and one of those methods is via the lot.
YHWH has revealed all of the truth we need to have from now until the Kingdom! Sometimes we have to LEARN "a little at a time". We can't take it all in at once. Especially when the world we live in is so full of chaos. BUT the truth we need IS here, we just have to dig it out with diligence.
If you are having trouble "digging" or lack the skills necessary, etc.. THEN you can say "I give up... show me Father". And He will. HOWEVER, %99.999 of the time, that answer is going to come through His "gifts" to the Assembly... Apostles, Prophetes, Evangelist, Pastor-Teachers. This is specifically what they are for!
Maybe you are not one of those gifts. That's okay. We all have our roles in the body. But if you are unwilling to listen to them, then you are unwilling to obey YHWH and you will be deceived.
Those that say the lot can not be used to answer points of doctrine have not given much thought to the fact that there has not ever been a period of time like this one. Never has there been so much deception and the loss of biblical language truths.
It doesn't matter what the times are like because, guess what?.... YHWH DOES NOT CHANGE! And for Joey to claim that these times are so overwhelmingly different than times past is irrelevant to the instructions of YHWH. We are given those instructions to preserve us
through the worse times, not to be discarded and replaced with easier, more convenient instructions!
In ancient times, and pre-ancient times, YHWH performed great and mighty miraculous wonders over all the earth to establish Himself and His truth in a people to be passed throughout the generations. Joey would have us to believe that this was all for nought and that Satan has won the battle!
No way! YHWH has preserved His truth and His Word through His people and His plan and He has ordained the roles of some who are charged with keeping it alive and continuing to spread it. Ephesians.
If Joey believes that the times are so monumentally worse than times past (he may be right), and YHWH was willing to establish His truth through the lies THEN, what makes you think we can't know it now? NOW is when we need to know it the most, when times are worse!
The fact that there is not an example of anyone casting lots for truth in the bible doesn't hold any water either, cause instruction given in a biblical language, such as Greek or Hebrew to people who understood Greek and Hebrew doesn't need much explanation, thus there is no need to question via the lot.
That makes no sense at all. What Joey is insinuating is that because we speak English, and the instruction were written to Greeks and Hebrews, we can't really know what the real instructions are. Mule Fritters!
First of all, how does Joey know that the "deception" and the "language barrier" problems aren't in the very Scriptures he uses to cast lots????
Second, Joey is definitely not giving YHWH enough credit. Did YHWH not know when He gave these instructions, that there would be people of different languages and cultures thousands of years later? Of course He did!
Does 1, 2, 5, or 10 thousand years mean anything to YHWH? No. His word "stands" forever. He can preserve it forever. We can know it forever.
But the example of the lot being a form of the urim and thummin is clear. It is YHWH's way to pronounce judgment on a given matter when two people disagree.
1. You do NOT have a "Urim" or a "Thummin". If I were a betting man, I would bet the farm you can't even provide a "clear" explanation as to what a "Urim" and "Thummin" is!
2.This was for the preist, who acted as "judges" in many cases. It was NOT used to decide a matter in which YHWH had already mandated, whether anyone disagreed or not. This was used to decided matters that are not Torah related.
At the end of the day, I would much rather stand on what YHWH promises to answer (Prov. 16:33) than fight it out with my brother and be divided.
It is NOT the "lack of lots" that causes division. Those who oppose what YHWH has already established as truth WILL cause division.
Lot casting may have a place, but it is certainly not to decide what truth is or isn't. Provebs 16:33 does not promise to answer Torah matters by lot.
As far as how it is that Eric's congregation gets along without casting lots, it is my opinion that that congregation has a lot of sheep and a very strong leader that basically stands ready to lead them into what he believes is true and the sheep want it that way. And many congregations are that way. No problem. It's a governmental thing, not a unity because of truth thing.
It is the specified will of YHWH and gift to the assembly to have "Pastors". This is a YHWH established ordainance and for Joey to characterize it like we are a bunch or mindless, gullible, sermon slurpers, is offensive to us and to YHWH.
Our Pastor, Matthew Janzen, and ourselves, study hard, with diligence, determination and love for the Word. We sometime s disagree, vehemently, but we always allow the Word and love to keep us bound together and rebound us from error!
So, in our assembly, it is Scripture that keeps is unified. Joey and his cohorts are unified by "lot casting". I ask all, which assembly would you rather be a part of?
No one, at this time, has all the truth.......That much I would stake my life upon.
We don't have to have it ALL!!! We just have to be "pressing toward the mark". It is a "high calling" because it requires diligence, and patience and maturity and endurance. Joey has reduced it to a "lotto". Shame on him and all who follow this error. It is a slap in the face of truth and faith. YHWH does NOT honor it.