In Defence of Sha'ul

[eriqbenel]

Greetings fellow believers in the Most High.

Thank you all for your condolences. We are all well in my family...

The first verse I look at is referring to the twelve apostles of the lamb, which only confirms for me that even at the time of the writing of the book of Revelation there were only twelve apostles, and not more, or less.

Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb....

This was a spiritual journey to the spiritual heaven as we all know. And this verse tells me that in the eternal heaven there are only twelve apostles of the lamb...

Shalom,

Kathy

Shalom Kathy,

That is absolutely right! I agree. The question is, who is the twelveth aposlte, Matthias or Sha'ul? If I had to make a choice based in Scripture, I would say Sha'ul.

As I mentioned, ALL 12 Apostles, were chosen DIRECTLY by Messiah, however, Matthias was NOT. Notice that this "lottery" was held BEFORE the Set Apart Ruach came down. Therefore, this casting lots to choose another Apostle was NOT inspired by the Ruach.

Sha'ul, on the other hand WAS chosen "directly" by Messiah. He changed his life and gave up EVERYTHING to be an Apostle. He had NOTHING to gain and all to lose. He Stayed true to his calling in the face of torture, danger, prison, disaster, ridicule, poverty, and more. He didn't even accept gifts from the assemblies, but earned his living by his own hand. A fake, would have given up looonnngggg before.

The only false Apostles/Prophets I see in Scripture are all in it for some reason, like POWER or MONEY. Sha'ul had none of these. In fact, he only had hardship and death to look forward to because of his choice.

In the book of Kepha (Peter), Kepha even recognizes him as a true Apostle, which probably went a long way in helping others to accept him, given his former reputation.

Again you are correct, there are ONLY twelve, and Sha'ul is one.

[kathybyers2000]

I guess I see the question as,

Is it an acceptable form of decision making for the chosen of YHWH to cast lots?

If it is not, then I must agree with you that Matthias is NOT an apostle chosen by Yahushua through authority given to him by YHWH and the spirit of Him.

However, if it casting lots IS an acceptable form of decision making given to Yahushua's chosen ones then I must continue understanding that Matthias was numbered amongst the twelve and remains so to this day as one of the chiefs of one of the twelve walls with one of the twelve gates.

I will consider this information, and research how YHWH looks at His chosen ones casting lots, meditate and perhaps I will return to this topic again with new understanding, or perhaps I won't -- YHWH knows

Thank you for sharing Eriq.

Shalom,

Kathy

[eriqbenel]

I guess I see the question as,

Is it an acceptable form of decision making for the chosen of YHWH to cast lots?

If it is not, then I must agree with you that Matthias is NOT an apostle chosen by Yahushua through authority given to him by YHWH and the spirit of Him.

However, if it casting lots IS an acceptable form of decision making given to Yahushua's chosen ones then I must continue understanding that Matthias was numbered amongst the twelve and remains so to this day as one of the chiefs of one of the twelve walls with one of the twelve gates.

I will consider this information, and research how YHWH looks at His chosen ones casting lots, meditate and perhaps I will return to this topic again with new understanding, or perhaps I won't -- YHWH knows

Thank you for sharing Eriq.

Shalom,

Kathy

Shalom Sister Kathy!!

While considering this, you may want to include "WHAT" things casting lots is approved for as a factor. In other words, is it a Scripturally approved form for ALL things or only some things. Is Apostleship one of them?


Luke
6:12 And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to .
6:13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;

Acts
1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Spirit had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

1 Corinthians
12:28 And YHWH hath set some in the assembly, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

[Torahwoman]

Shalom...

only sharing thoughts here, .. would it indeed be wrong that they cast lots to fill up the twelfth spot for emissary? If so, would it not be along the same plane as when Mosheh -- though provoked -- failed to give the esteem to YaHUaH and took it upon himself to receive such for bringing forth water out of the rock, and thus was not allowed to enter into the physical promised land? If the taught ones in fact took it upon themselves -- i.e., sought their own counsel for their own esteem -- to cast lots for the 'empty seat', would they not have received some form of punishment from YaHUaH for so doing? And if that is a fact, then certainly if Mosheh -- who did not seek his own counsel, but YaHUaH's -- was banned from a blessing, then would not the eleven -- if they did seek their own counsel -- be all the more held back from a (similar?) blessing, seeing they did not give YaHUaH esteem, if it be true that they didn't give Him esteem? Pardon if i'm being repetitious here, please.
Still, only sharing thoughts,... i do believe Sha'ul was a true taught one and emissary, and that -- as has been pointed out in a previous post -- directly from YaHUsha Himself... "as one born out of due time.." Simply because there are going to be twelve emissary posts in the Reign of YaHUaH, does that mean there could be no other emissaries than twelve? Are we not sent to deliver the Message of the Tov News, that of repentance since we know His Reign draws ever so near? And as was pointed out to me a few moments ago by my Mother, in addition to themselves being taught ones/emissaries, they were given the directive to make other taught ones, as we also do receive the same directive from YaHUaH through His Son YaHUsha.
If we know that YaHUsha Himself is High Priest, does that mean that there won't be any other priestly offices -- or is Scripture wrong in telling us of such offices to be in subjection to the Highest Position of Priest? If we know that YaHUsha is King/Melek over all, does that mean that there will be no other offices of kingship? What of Scripture saying that Dawid shall be raised up again as a king?
With certainty we do know YaHUaH is not wrong, nor does He err, and therefore we do know that His Word is not wrong and does not err -- this being shared as a matter of joint observation, and if any on this forum does not/do not currently know what has been shared here in this post, i trust that YaHUaH shall do so through a proper vessel or proper vessels of teaching. Praise YaHUaH's Great Name!

Permanently spoken-in: i do claim authority over and take captive any unclean spirit(s) that would attempt to accuse me of teaching or attempting to teach any whom i do not have Scriptural permission to teach/attempt to teach and do pray that YaHUaH forgives or has forgiven me for times when i did place myself in such a role intentionally or not. All praise and esteem and honour to YaHUaH Most High! \o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/\o/

Thank you for your patience.

tw

[kathybyers2000]

Greetings!

I see that there are now two members here who do not agree with casting lots as a glorifying method of letting the choice fall to YHWH.

In my search for understanding I have noticed something regarding the casting lots. It is noted throughout, that the decision fell on YHWH.

And then again in the Book of the Acts of the Apostles (by Luke) is recorded --

Act 1:23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
Act 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all [men], shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
Act 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

I see that 11 men who were appointed by Yahushua and had yet to receive the gift and guidance of the Ruach haKodesh turned to a tried and true old method that the high priests and prophets of old used and prayed, and cast lots and left the decision (not to fate as our carnal minds desire to think), but in the hands of YHWH.

I still understand that Matthias was numbered amongst the twelve appointed apostles by the casting of lots and that there are only twelve apostles as it is written in the Book of Revelation and all other references to the apostles.

I will continue sharing with all of you other verses that I have found that have altered my understanding of Pauls role in HIStory, if any of you would like.

Shalom,

Kathy

[BrotherArnold]

There is nothing wrong about casting lots over who is to take someone's place if both have the same qualifications etc, but not for doctrinal matters.

Brother Arnold